Diversity in Gaming

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Avatar image for Pedro
#51 Posted by Pedro (27948 posts) -

@necroplazma said:

Because it's stupid and unimportant but it's treated like a big issue and brought up often. Being noninclusive doesn't make a game any worse.

Thats why you don't make games and the industry is going to evolve independent of you.:)

Avatar image for Jacanuk
#52 Edited by Jacanuk (11757 posts) -

@The_Last_Ride said:

@Pedro said:

Why is that every time diversity in gaming is brought up people get hostile? What is the deal with that? Why is it so hard to be quasi inclusive when making a game with humans in it?

Well just look at the hate indie games get from some people. Such a shame, because indie games are awesome

Who hates indie games? thats like hating being a gamer and not wanting cool exciting new games to play.

Avatar image for The_Last_Ride
#53 Posted by The_Last_Ride (76371 posts) -

@Jacanuk said:

@The_Last_Ride said:

@Pedro said:

Why is that every time diversity in gaming is brought up people get hostile? What is the deal with that? Why is it so hard to be quasi inclusive when making a game with humans in it?

Well just look at the hate indie games get from some people. Such a shame, because indie games are awesome

Who hates indie games? thats like hating being a gamer and not wanting cool exciting new games to play.

Dude, don't get me started. I've been on this and on SW defending indie games. These so called hardcore gamers don't want indie games to be rated the same as regular games because much more "work" are put into AAA games. Also indie games don't count as exclusives or good games when buying a system. There's just so much fucking stupidity about that it makes me want to pull my hair out. Mostly people i have debated this with have been Xbots.

Avatar image for Pffrbt
#54 Posted by Pffrbt (6612 posts) -

@MBirdy88 said:

@Pffrbt: how about giving some examples....

i mean for gods sake you all just say "I want diversity" but thats all... as if its some holy grail... get off the pedestal and spell it out to us potential "idiots" who even wonder what kind of diversity you are even talking about.

How hard could it possibly be for you to think of a non-white, non-straight non-male protagonist. A character doesn't need to meet all of those requirements to be a refreshing change from the usual protagonist.

Avatar image for Jacanuk
#55 Posted by Jacanuk (11757 posts) -

@The_Last_Ride said:

@Jacanuk said:

@The_Last_Ride said:

@Pedro said:

Why is that every time diversity in gaming is brought up people get hostile? What is the deal with that? Why is it so hard to be quasi inclusive when making a game with humans in it?

Well just look at the hate indie games get from some people. Such a shame, because indie games are awesome

Who hates indie games? thats like hating being a gamer and not wanting cool exciting new games to play.

Dude, don't get me started. I've been on this and on SW defending indie games. These so called hardcore gamers don't want indie games to be rated the same as regular games because much more "work" are put into AAA games. Also indie games don't count as exclusives or good games when buying a system. There's just so much fucking stupidity about that it makes me want to pull my hair out. Mostly people i have debated this with have been Xbots.

I admire your attempt to educate these trolls Ride. Not counting or hating indie games is just so dumb , after all some of the absolute best gaming experiences in the last few years it has been indie games like , Terraria, Slender, Outlast, Fez, Risk of Rain, Papers please, Tower of Guns, Starbound, Binding of Isaac and tons of other games.

Avatar image for The_Last_Ride
#56 Edited by The_Last_Ride (76371 posts) -

@Jacanuk said:

@The_Last_Ride said:

@Jacanuk said:

@The_Last_Ride said:

@Pedro said:

Why is that every time diversity in gaming is brought up people get hostile? What is the deal with that? Why is it so hard to be quasi inclusive when making a game with humans in it?

Well just look at the hate indie games get from some people. Such a shame, because indie games are awesome

Who hates indie games? thats like hating being a gamer and not wanting cool exciting new games to play.

Dude, don't get me started. I've been on this and on SW defending indie games. These so called hardcore gamers don't want indie games to be rated the same as regular games because much more "work" are put into AAA games. Also indie games don't count as exclusives or good games when buying a system. There's just so much fucking stupidity about that it makes me want to pull my hair out. Mostly people i have debated this with have been Xbots.

I admire your attempt to educate these trolls Ride. Not counting or hating indie games is just so dumb , after all some of the absolute best gaming experiences in the last few years it has been indie games like , Terraria, Slender, Outlast, Fez, Risk of Rain, Papers please, Tower of Guns, Starbound, Binding of Isaac and tons of other games.

Yeah, but people are just stupid. It can't be changed

Avatar image for MBirdy88
#57 Posted by MBirdy88 (12135 posts) -

@Pffrbt said:

@MBirdy88 said:

@Pffrbt: how about giving some examples....

i mean for gods sake you all just say "I want diversity" but thats all... as if its some holy grail... get off the pedestal and spell it out to us potential "idiots" who even wonder what kind of diversity you are even talking about.

How hard could it possibly be for you to think of a non-white, non-straight non-male protagonist. A character doesn't need to meet all of those requirements to be a refreshing change from the usual protagonist.

and that makes it better automatically? someone the majority of the audience wont relate to?

We do this all the time with japanese games, but someone earlier stupidly tried to make out "that doesn't count because their anime like art styles are white people" ... jesus christ there is a big difference between the Japanese obsessions with fair skin = beauty than the characters actually being Caucasian ... which they are not... and they surely don't act like us either.

so you want I dunno? hispanic characters for the sake of it?

and again I laugh because only the the big blockbuster action games largely have white male forced leads... big friggin whoop.

Avatar image for Pffrbt
#58 Posted by Pffrbt (6612 posts) -

@MBirdy88: "and that makes it better automatically?"
Variety tends to be better than complete stagnation.

"someone the majority of the audience wont relate to?"
Are you incapable of relating to anyone who isn't exactly like yourself.

"We do this all the time with japanese games"
Do what? The majority of the characters in Japanese games are still often straight, white men. The Japanese still tend to do a better job of having more diverse protagonists though.

"so you want I dunno? hispanic characters for the sake of it?"
Sure. I'd be up for playing as a hispanic protagonist. I'd personally want to play as a black protagonist. Or a gay protagonist. Or a straight up alien, something that isn't human at all.

"I laugh because only the the big blockbuster action games largely have white male forced leads..."
And that's a problem.

Avatar image for MBirdy88
#59 Posted by MBirdy88 (12135 posts) -

@Pffrbt said:

@MBirdy88: "and that makes it better automatically?"

Variety tends to be better than complete stagnation.

"someone the majority of the audience wont relate to?"

Are you incapable of relating to anyone who isn't exactly like yourself.

"We do this all the time with japanese games"

Do what? The majority of the characters in Japanese games are still often straight, white men. The Japanese still tend to do a better job of having more diverse protagonists though.

"so you want I dunno? hispanic characters for the sake of it?"

Sure. I'd be up for playing as a hispanic protagonist. I'd personally want to play as a black protagonist. Or a gay protagonist. Or a straight up alien, something that isn't human at all.

"I laugh because only the the big blockbuster action games largely have white male forced leads..."

And that's a problem.

yup and again stopped reading at the Japanese comment..... its stupid.

making problems out of nothing.

Just make nathan drake black... because for no explained reason it would be better. got it.

Avatar image for Bird_Killer
#60 Posted by Bird_Killer (235 posts) -

Behind the banner of and pressing for diversity, there has to be some reasons behind it than just for the sake of it. If diversity makes the game environment and the world more realistic, varied, and enjoyable, then that's a fantastic reason to include diversity in games. If diversity doesn't promote these aspects but on the contrary, degrades the game or implicitly tries to promote diversity, then that's when gamers get annoyed.

It doesn't make sense to say "this game is a lot of enjoyable if we had a non-white character" for that's diversity for the sake of diversity. Proponents will say that it goes against the general cliches and tropes, but opponents can make quality arguments that they being racist against whites, which isn't part of being diverse is it? Isn't it better to argue for diversity that ties in directly with the game itself? For example, if the stage was set in a foreign non-white dominated setting, putting a white character would make him/her a tourist/outsider. Put in a character that's native to that country, and it's his/her hometown. Both perspective offers the player differing actions and how the narrative develops.

Avatar image for Pffrbt
#61 Edited by Pffrbt (6612 posts) -

@MBirdy88: "yup and again stopped reading at the Japanese comment..... its stupid."
How. Name some Japanese protagonists from some non-niche games that aren't straight, white men, and aren't designed in an overtly anime style.

"making problems out of nothing."
A near complete lack of variety in video game protagonists isn't a problem out of nothing.

"Just make nathan drake black... because for no explained reason it would be better. got it."
It has been explained. Stagnation is boring. Do you honestly think it's perfectly fine for games constantly keep staring gruff, straight, white men? Because I think it's tiresome and boring as hell. I'd love to put myself in another person's shoes and see things from a different perspective, or perhaps even a perspective I can actually relate to personally for once. I'm fucking sick of having to see things from the perspective of some straight white guy in every mainstream game I play. There's a variety of people on this planet, why can't I play as any of them.

Literally the only mainstream game I can think of that even stars a black man as its lead is Prototype 2.

@Bird_Killer said:

If diversity makes the game environment and the world more realistic, varied, and enjoyable, then that's a fantastic reason to include diversity in games.

I'm not a fan of this attitude that games can't have protagonists that break the mold of "straight, white male" unless there's specific narrative justification for why. Straight, white male protagonists aren't held to this requirement, why should differing protagonists be.

"opponents can make quality arguments that they being racist against whites"
Diversity isn't limited to skin color. Wanting more diverse representation in games isn't racist against whites.

"which isn't part of being diverse is it?"
No one is calling for the complete eradication of straight, white male protagonists. Just expressing a desire for more diversity among protagonists. As it is now, almost all mainstream video games are dominated by a single kind of protagonist.

"Isn't it better to argue for diversity that ties in directly with the game itself?"
Straight, white male protagonists aren't held to this requirement 90% of the time, why should other kinds of protagonists be. A character doesn't need narrative justification for why they aren't a straight, white male. Why can't they simply be that character because that's simply who they are.

Avatar image for MBirdy88
#62 Posted by MBirdy88 (12135 posts) -

I'm done... but having Japanese characters who are closer to white skinned is not a normal western white lead... there is still a massive difference... I can't fathom how you cant see that. but oh well.

Avatar image for Jag85
#63 Edited by Jag85 (10800 posts) -

@Pffrbt said:

@MBirdy88: "and that makes it better automatically?"

Variety tends to be better than complete stagnation.

"someone the majority of the audience wont relate to?"

Are you incapable of relating to anyone who isn't exactly like yourself.

"We do this all the time with japanese games"

Do what? The majority of the characters in Japanese games are still often straight, white men. The Japanese still tend to do a better job of having more diverse protagonists though.

Nope, the majority of protagonists in Japanese games are Japanese. However, a significant minority of Japanese games do have white protagonists, mainly the ones targeted towards Western audiences. Japanese games do tend to feature more diverse characters, because their games are usually targeted towards more diverse audiences... which is ironic, since Japan is relatively homogeneous compared to America, yet Japanese developers do a better job of representing diversity in their games.

Avatar image for platinumking320
#64 Posted by platinumking320 (668 posts) -

@Jag85 said:

@Pffrbt said:

@MBirdy88: "and that makes it better automatically?"

Variety tends to be better than complete stagnation.

"someone the majority of the audience wont relate to?"

Are you incapable of relating to anyone who isn't exactly like yourself.

"We do this all the time with japanese games"

Do what? The majority of the characters in Japanese games are still often straight, white men. The Japanese still tend to do a better job of having more diverse protagonists though.

Nope, the majority of protagonists in Japanese games are Japanese. However, a significant minority of Japanese games do have white protagonists, mainly the ones targeted towards Western audiences. Japanese games do tend to feature more diverse characters, because their games are usually targeted towards more diverse audiences... which is ironic, since Japan is relatively homogeneous compared to America, yet Japanese developers do a better job of representing diversity in their games.

Follows the trend of extreme self-indulgence in American entertainment. Now I love me some self-indulgence but at least other countries know how to frame that stuff carefully in isolation and buildup for the sake of the friggin STORY, or tell people its straight up campy when they decide to go all out with TNA, gun porn, tech and fantasy. Not to say we don't have our diamonds-in-the-rough for good gamemaking and storytelling here.

Some might look at it as guys self-indulgence. Hey, it is what is. but we're unreasonably drowning and saturated in our commercialism of power material and conquest, to the point theres little context to our celebration of ourselves. Our warriors look more like villains than heroes.

Japan is humbled by their spiritual balance, perception of conflict, and greater community. They gave us Cloud Strife, Solid Snake and Squall Leonhart from 15 yrs ago and look at how quick they became massive teenage icons to boys and girls that played the series, because of their angst and not because of their outward power. The fact it is a post nuke society with people who like the same things we Americans like but aren't so full of themselves in their entertainment exports. So its okay for them to be blatant cheese or realistic. We might not get it, but I certainly do.

Avatar image for ShadowsDemon
#65 Edited by ShadowsDemon (10051 posts) -

@Lulu_Lulu said:

Humans are overated.... I say we continue the trend of weird video game characters like Meat Boy and Bandage Girl !

Hell even Rayman and has Entourage were pretty Diverse.... :p

Thing is even if we get racial, Gender, and age Diversity right.... They'l still be portrayed poorly simply because they're video game characters....

Whatever happens, there's always going to be someone, somewhere out there who's going to complain about the lack of...something in some media format or another. They're called social justice warriors.

Avatar image for Jag85
#66 Edited by Jag85 (10800 posts) -

@platinumking320 said:

@Jag85 said:

@Pffrbt said:

@MBirdy88: "and that makes it better automatically?"

Variety tends to be better than complete stagnation.

"someone the majority of the audience wont relate to?"

Are you incapable of relating to anyone who isn't exactly like yourself.

"We do this all the time with japanese games"

Do what? The majority of the characters in Japanese games are still often straight, white men. The Japanese still tend to do a better job of having more diverse protagonists though.

Nope, the majority of protagonists in Japanese games are Japanese. However, a significant minority of Japanese games do have white protagonists, mainly the ones targeted towards Western audiences. Japanese games do tend to feature more diverse characters, because their games are usually targeted towards more diverse audiences... which is ironic, since Japan is relatively homogeneous compared to America, yet Japanese developers do a better job of representing diversity in their games.

Follows the trend of extreme self-indulgence in American entertainment. Now I love me some self-indulgence but at least other countries know how to frame that stuff carefully in isolation and buildup for the sake of the friggin STORY, or tell people its straight up campy when they decide to go all out with TNA, gun porn, tech and fantasy. Not to say we don't have our diamonds-in-the-rough for good gamemaking and storytelling here.

Some might look at it as guys self-indulgence. Hey, it is what is. but we're unreasonably drowning and saturated in our commercialism of power material and conquest, to the point theres little context to our celebration of ourselves. Our warriors look more like villains than heroes.

Japan is humbled by their spiritual balance, perception of conflict, and greater community. They gave us Cloud Strife, Solid Snake and Squall Leonhart from 15 yrs ago and look at how quick they became massive teenage icons to boys and girls that played the series, because of their angst and not because of their outward power. The fact it is a post nuke society with people who like the same things we Americans like but aren't so full of themselves in their entertainment exports. So its okay for them to be blatant cheese or realistic. We might not get it, but I certainly do.

I kind of miss the days when the game industry was more Japan-oriented back in the 90's. Back in those days, the game industry was full of diverse characters, from men to women, whites to Asians, humans to animals. It wasn't just Japan either, but even the biggest Western franchises had plenty of diversity, such as Mortal Kombat's Asian lead Liu Kang, or Tomb Raider's female lead Lara Croft, or Crash Bandicoot's titular animal lead.

Nowadays, game characters have become increasingly homogenous, with most game characters falling into the same archetype: human, white male, with short brown hair, a muscular physique, and a smug look on his face. Back when Solid Snake had these characteristics in the 90's, he was considered somewhat uncommon in the game industry, but nowadays, the overwhelming majority of action game characters use the same archetype.

And every time the game industry receives criticism for its increasing lack of diversty, you get conservative kiddies complaining about "political correctness"... completely, blissfully ignorant of just how diverse game characters used to be back in the 90's, or still are in Japan.

Avatar image for Lulu_Lulu
#67 Posted by Lulu_Lulu (19564 posts) -

@ShadowsDemon

I know.... I'm one of them.... However I've limited my campaign to just wanting more female game characters.

Avatar image for wiouds
#68 Posted by wiouds (6233 posts) -

@The_Last_Ride said:

@Jacanuk said:

@The_Last_Ride said:

@Jacanuk said:

@The_Last_Ride said:

@Pedro said:

Why is that every time diversity in gaming is brought up people get hostile? What is the deal with that? Why is it so hard to be quasi inclusive when making a game with humans in it?

Well just look at the hate indie games get from some people. Such a shame, because indie games are awesome

Who hates indie games? thats like hating being a gamer and not wanting cool exciting new games to play.

Dude, don't get me started. I've been on this and on SW defending indie games. These so called hardcore gamers don't want indie games to be rated the same as regular games because much more "work" are put into AAA games. Also indie games don't count as exclusives or good games when buying a system. There's just so much fucking stupidity about that it makes me want to pull my hair out. Mostly people i have debated this with have been Xbots.

I admire your attempt to educate these trolls Ride. Not counting or hating indie games is just so dumb , after all some of the absolute best gaming experiences in the last few years it has been indie games like , Terraria, Slender, Outlast, Fez, Risk of Rain, Papers please, Tower of Guns, Starbound, Binding of Isaac and tons of other games.

Yeah, but people are just stupid. It can't be changed

I find many gamers that overrate and value what indie games does. The best gaming experiences I had in the last few years mostly come from the AAA games.

Avatar image for The_Last_Ride
#69 Posted by The_Last_Ride (76371 posts) -

@wiouds: Well that's you, but indie games bring a lot to the table

Avatar image for MBirdy88
#70 Posted by MBirdy88 (12135 posts) -

@platinumking320 said:

@Jag85 said:

@Pffrbt said:

@MBirdy88: "and that makes it better automatically?"

Variety tends to be better than complete stagnation.

"someone the majority of the audience wont relate to?"

Are you incapable of relating to anyone who isn't exactly like yourself.

"We do this all the time with japanese games"

Do what? The majority of the characters in Japanese games are still often straight, white men. The Japanese still tend to do a better job of having more diverse protagonists though.

Nope, the majority of protagonists in Japanese games are Japanese. However, a significant minority of Japanese games do have white protagonists, mainly the ones targeted towards Western audiences. Japanese games do tend to feature more diverse characters, because their games are usually targeted towards more diverse audiences... which is ironic, since Japan is relatively homogeneous compared to America, yet Japanese developers do a better job of representing diversity in their games.

Follows the trend of extreme self-indulgence in American entertainment. Now I love me some self-indulgence but at least other countries know how to frame that stuff carefully in isolation and buildup for the sake of the friggin STORY, or tell people its straight up campy when they decide to go all out with TNA, gun porn, tech and fantasy. Not to say we don't have our diamonds-in-the-rough for good gamemaking and storytelling here.

Some might look at it as guys self-indulgence. Hey, it is what is. but we're unreasonably drowning and saturated in our commercialism of power material and conquest, to the point theres little context to our celebration of ourselves. Our warriors look more like villains than heroes.

Japan is humbled by their spiritual balance, perception of conflict, and greater community. They gave us Cloud Strife, Solid Snake and Squall Leonhart from 15 yrs ago and look at how quick they became massive teenage icons to boys and girls that played the series, because of their angst and not because of their outward power. The fact it is a post nuke society with people who like the same things we Americans like but aren't so full of themselves in their entertainment exports. So its okay for them to be blatant cheese or realistic. We might not get it, but I certainly do.

I'm not even American so don't use that card when I say this... but I've never read such obvious "Oh I like to rebel and say another culture (stereo typically Japanese... who are ironically are a very insular nation themselves.. and your more likely to have americans interested in their culture/games than the Japanese are in western games in general) to sound cool" kinda crowd...

You honestly believe what your saying? Cloud is Japan's equivalent and Squall to a white male lead which all the females rally around for no explained reason other than the buffer the player.... and they are very much "The dominant powerful leader male" ... "oh but their angst" .... oh please... for some reason cloud and squall are considered far stronger (don't bring stats into the arguement..) they are the equivilant... why? because funnily enough Japan is no different. powerful *ideal skin coloured* males with a cast of supporting females usually sexuilised up the wazoo is the major player just like the west.

Snake? hes based on a western character..... he acts like a typical western lead male.... (but ofcourse, a tad different being from an outside perspective).

Avatar image for platinumking320
#71 Edited by platinumking320 (668 posts) -

@MBirdy88: Well yeah, they may be carbon aloof white guy heroes on the surface, with a repaste of Snake Pliskin,

but they all had considerably deep character arcs and room to empathize with. Hardly anybody was expecting that level of character drama and introspection.

Either used as a pawn for other's wargames, struggling with no self-identity, family baggage, pushed and prodded into leadership w/o their side ever being heard or understood.

Their skin color had nothing to do with it y'know? And that was all that was needed for gamers to connect.

It reminds me of this example I don't often watch the show 'Mad Men' but, I see a ep from time to time and on some fb thread I noticed a whole bunch of female watchers sympathizing with Don Draper, when he was on probation at the ad agency and reporting to Peggy who was once his secretary. He'd lost his throne.

I thought...so lemme get this straight... they're sympathizing with a dismissive, drunk serial adulterer over a young new creative lead whos endured his shit for seasons fighting for that very position because she wasnt grateful? I couldn't believe what I was reading.

Only reason I can think of is that he let viewers in and allowed them to empathize. He had his redeeming moments. It reminded me of the massive FF teen fandom for Squall who was cold and aloof, but understandable.

Not saying Japan's perfect, and some of their guys at times I wish would grow a pair, but the way they came off, skin color or gender didnt matter. Even among their cheesiest

Leon Kennedy, a sharp balanced cop who cares about others and takes his work seriously

Dante (b4 Ninja theory) a charming, witty and self-aware demon hunter

Zidane - a determined, live and let live' optomist, with an unknown dark secret

Tidus - at first a caricature of the spoiled star athlete with cringy daddy issues, who is carefree, but understands his greater responsibility.

Yeah so for me, character always comes first. Id like diversity in games but im not so shallow that its my only barometer of feeling represented, or able to connect with a video game. and thats my only concern is all

Avatar image for MBirdy88
#72 Posted by MBirdy88 (12135 posts) -

@platinumking320 said:

@MBirdy88: Well yeah, they may be carbon aloof white guy heroes on the surface, with a repaste of Snake Pliskin,

but they all had considerably deep character arcs and room to empathize with. Hardly anybody was expecting that level of character drama and introspection.

Either used as a pawn for other's wargames, struggling with no self-identity, family baggage, pushed and prodded into leadership w/o their side ever being heard or understood.

Their skin color had nothing to do with it y'know? And that was all that was needed for gamers to connect.

It reminds me of this example I don't often watch the show 'Mad Men' but, I see a ep from time to time and on some fb thread I noticed a whole bunch of female watchers sympathizing with Don Draper, when he was on probation at the ad agency and reporting to Peggy who was once his secretary. He'd lost his throne.

I thought...so lemme get this straight... they're sympathizing with a dismissive, drunk serial adulterer over a young new creative lead whos endured his shit for seasons fighting for that very position because she wasnt grateful? I couldn't believe what I was reading.

Only reason I can think of is that he let viewers in and allowed them to empathize. He had his redeeming moments. It reminded me of the massive FF teen fandom for Squall who was cold and aloof, but understandable.

Not saying Japan's perfect, and some of their guys at times I wish would grow a pair, but the way they came off, skin color or gender didnt matter. Even among their cheesiest

Leon Kennedy, a sharp balanced cop who cares about others and takes his work seriously

Dante (b4 Ninja theory) a charming

sounds like one sided bias to me.... you cant honestly name any western leads who have similar struggles?

Avatar image for wiouds
#73 Edited by wiouds (6233 posts) -

@The_Last_Ride: So does the AAA games. My problem comes from those that mindlessly refuse to accept that AAA games are improving gaming while using that same lack of thinking to praise indie games for every thing.

There are good indie games but I am not going to elevate them higher because they are indie games.

Avatar image for platinumking320
#74 Edited by platinumking320 (668 posts) -

@MBirdy88: like I said. im not saying we dont have our strong suits.and that Japan doesnt screw up too. We got Portal's Chell, Dominic from Gears, even Drew Karpishyns writing from Mass Effect but they're more outliers rather than a standard that inspires all others to flesh out stories and characters that try to be deep.

When Resi Evil, Metal Gear, Silent Hill and Final Fantasy were the top anticipated franchises everyone in aaa games largely did their own thing, or found their own niche in their approach to narrative, and gameplay. Diversity was more than just a skin color it was evident in the way people made their games. The mechanics, story...everything. Hell, Half-life ignored cutscenes entirely and framed everything in setpieces.

but Post Halo, WoW and CoD, when all eyes were on American franchises others seem to have lost their way and tried to chase after its popular attributes instead of doing what they did best. There are still diamonds in the rough and good international game writers but theres a lot of copy paste cynicsm out there, and Its more fervent when all eyes are on the west is all.

Avatar image for vl4d_l3nin
#75 Posted by vl4d_l3nin (1093 posts) -

@foxhound_fox said:

Because gaming is art

lol

and I'm a fucking astronaut.

Avatar image for Jag85
#76 Edited by Jag85 (10800 posts) -

@MBirdy88 said:

@platinumking320 said:

@Jag85 said:

Nope, the majority of protagonists in Japanese games are Japanese. However, a significant minority of Japanese games do have white protagonists, mainly the ones targeted towards Western audiences. Japanese games do tend to feature more diverse characters, because their games are usually targeted towards more diverse audiences... which is ironic, since Japan is relatively homogeneous compared to America, yet Japanese developers do a better job of representing diversity in their games.

Follows the trend of extreme self-indulgence in American entertainment. Now I love me some self-indulgence but at least other countries know how to frame that stuff carefully in isolation and buildup for the sake of the friggin STORY, or tell people its straight up campy when they decide to go all out with TNA, gun porn, tech and fantasy. Not to say we don't have our diamonds-in-the-rough for good gamemaking and storytelling here.

Some might look at it as guys self-indulgence. Hey, it is what is. but we're unreasonably drowning and saturated in our commercialism of power material and conquest, to the point theres little context to our celebration of ourselves. Our warriors look more like villains than heroes.

Japan is humbled by their spiritual balance, perception of conflict, and greater community. They gave us Cloud Strife, Solid Snake and Squall Leonhart from 15 yrs ago and look at how quick they became massive teenage icons to boys and girls that played the series, because of their angst and not because of their outward power. The fact it is a post nuke society with people who like the same things we Americans like but aren't so full of themselves in their entertainment exports. So its okay for them to be blatant cheese or realistic. We might not get it, but I certainly do.

I'm not even American so don't use that card when I say this... but I've never read such obvious "Oh I like to rebel and say another culture (stereo typically Japanese... who are ironically are a very insular nation themselves.. and your more likely to have americans interested in their culture/games than the Japanese are in western games in general) to sound cool" kinda crowd...

You honestly believe what your saying? Cloud is Japan's equivalent and Squall to a white male lead which all the females rally around for no explained reason other than the buffer the player.... and they are very much "The dominant powerful leader male" ... "oh but their angst" .... oh please... for some reason cloud and squall are considered far stronger (don't bring stats into the arguement..) they are the equivilant... why? because funnily enough Japan is no different. powerful *ideal skin coloured* males with a cast of supporting females usually sexuilised up the wazoo is the major player just like the west.

Snake? hes based on a western character..... he acts like a typical western lead male.... (but ofcourse, a tad different being from an outside perspective).

That's what makes it all the more ironic... The Japanese game industry demonstrate a greater diversity in their games, despite the nation they're from being more insular. In most Western AAA games today, the protagonist usually looks either like this or like this. In Japanese AAA games, on the other hand, the way the characters look vary considerably, from Cloud Strife and Lightning to Solid Snake and Kazama Kiryu.

There's also a difference in how the characters are written. In most Western games, most leading protagonists usually fall into the strong, stoic, tough-guy archetype, to avoid ruining the fantasy of many male gamers in their teens & 20's. In most Japanese games, on the other hand, they focus a lot on the flaws of leading protagonists, almost to the annoyance of that same Western teens-20's male demographic. Japanese characters don't get the whole "angsty" reputation for no reason, even though angstiness is more representative of most humans than the stoicism we usually get from most leading Western protagonists.

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#77 Posted by The_Last_Ride (76371 posts) -

@wiouds said:

@The_Last_Ride: So does the AAA games. My problem comes from those that mindlessly refuse to accept that AAA games are improving gaming while using that same lack of thinking to praise indie games for every thing.

There are good indie games but I am not going to elevate them higher because they are indie games.

i would claim the opposite. AAA games take least amount of risk. Look at FIFA, Assassin's Creed, Madden, COD, etc. Do you think those push gaming as a general? Journey, Walking Dead, Dust: An Elysian Tale, Limbo, Braid, Mark of the Ninja, Monaco, No Man's Sky, etc Those push the boundaries WAY more than any of the ones i mentioned

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#78 Posted by wiouds (6233 posts) -

@The_Last_Ride said:

@wiouds said:

@The_Last_Ride: So does the AAA games. My problem comes from those that mindlessly refuse to accept that AAA games are improving gaming while using that same lack of thinking to praise indie games for every thing.

There are good indie games but I am not going to elevate them higher because they are indie games.

i would claim the opposite. AAA games take least amount of risk. Look at FIFA, Assassin's Creed, Madden, COD, etc. Do you think those push gaming as a general? Journey, Walking Dead, Dust: An Elysian Tale, Limbo, Braid, Mark of the Ninja, Monaco, No Man's Sky, etc Those push the boundaries WAY more than any of the ones i mentioned

Improving gaming is not always about the big, flashy things that the indie games have. The CoD games single player have always been trying new things with the staging of the shootouts. Assassin's creed is always trying new things and to improve them games. They are a number of tiny things that are hard to describe but they are there. If you are not trying to find them then you would not notice them.

The Journey and Walking Dead are two thing that I see as pushing gaming back. They are only praised for part. I have yet to hear someone say anything nice about their game play. Worse is that some hand wave away the parts that are not good because that was not the focus of the game.

Limbo and Braid...Sorry, I see no real improvement to gaming. I think this is more about them wanting it to be there than what is truly there.

I am not claiming that indie games does nothing but dismiss AAA games is garbage. I enjoy Shadowrun Return but I also see the flaws in it. I refuse to mindless wave the flag for indie games. I know AAA games are not trying anything outrageously new but that does mean they are just doing the same thing again and again.

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#79 Posted by deactivated-57ad0e5285d73 (21398 posts) -

Maybe the world should dictate that X amount of X color have to work at X job so that said X job has even stevens. NHL should cease any up and coming "white" stars so that the league has more members of "color".

Avatar image for Jacanuk
#80 Posted by Jacanuk (11757 posts) -

@wiouds said:

@The_Last_Ride: So does the AAA games. My problem comes from those that mindlessly refuse to accept that AAA games are improving gaming while using that same lack of thinking to praise indie games for every thing.

There are good indie games but I am not going to elevate them higher because they are indie games.

Is there good and bad Indie games of couse, but do please explain how anual COD/BF releases are improving anything? or all the AAA titles that are just a repeat of other titles, all the mindless FPS shooters coming out, and take a good look at the games be shown at E3 how many were just shooters, carracing games with a twist or the same 3rd player open game. Pretty much all of them, with the exception of a few games.

And then look at indie games, indie basically revived adventure games, city-building, strategy games not to mention some of the biggest games in the last few years has been from the indie scene not the AAA.

Does that mean that there isent bad indie games like Aircontrol and similiar of course not but its a lot easier to find a hit among 200 games then it is to find it among 5.

Avatar image for MBirdy88
#81 Edited by MBirdy88 (12135 posts) -

@Jag85 said:

@MBirdy88 said:

@platinumking320 said:

@Jag85 said:

Nope, the majority of protagonists in Japanese games are Japanese. However, a significant minority of Japanese games do have white protagonists, mainly the ones targeted towards Western audiences. Japanese games do tend to feature more diverse characters, because their games are usually targeted towards more diverse audiences... which is ironic, since Japan is relatively homogeneous compared to America, yet Japanese developers do a better job of representing diversity in their games.

Follows the trend of extreme self-indulgence in American entertainment. Now I love me some self-indulgence but at least other countries know how to frame that stuff carefully in isolation and buildup for the sake of the friggin STORY, or tell people its straight up campy when they decide to go all out with TNA, gun porn, tech and fantasy. Not to say we don't have our diamonds-in-the-rough for good gamemaking and storytelling here.

Some might look at it as guys self-indulgence. Hey, it is what is. but we're unreasonably drowning and saturated in our commercialism of power material and conquest, to the point theres little context to our celebration of ourselves. Our warriors look more like villains than heroes.

Japan is humbled by their spiritual balance, perception of conflict, and greater community. They gave us Cloud Strife, Solid Snake and Squall Leonhart from 15 yrs ago and look at how quick they became massive teenage icons to boys and girls that played the series, because of their angst and not because of their outward power. The fact it is a post nuke society with people who like the same things we Americans like but aren't so full of themselves in their entertainment exports. So its okay for them to be blatant cheese or realistic. We might not get it, but I certainly do.

I'm not even American so don't use that card when I say this... but I've never read such obvious "Oh I like to rebel and say another culture (stereo typically Japanese... who are ironically are a very insular nation themselves.. and your more likely to have americans interested in their culture/games than the Japanese are in western games in general) to sound cool" kinda crowd...

You honestly believe what your saying? Cloud is Japan's equivalent and Squall to a white male lead which all the females rally around for no explained reason other than the buffer the player.... and they are very much "The dominant powerful leader male" ... "oh but their angst" .... oh please... for some reason cloud and squall are considered far stronger (don't bring stats into the arguement..) they are the equivilant... why? because funnily enough Japan is no different. powerful *ideal skin coloured* males with a cast of supporting females usually sexuilised up the wazoo is the major player just like the west.

Snake? hes based on a western character..... he acts like a typical western lead male.... (but ofcourse, a tad different being from an outside perspective).

That's what makes it all the more ironic... The Japanese game industry demonstrate a greater diversity in their games, despite the nation they're from being more insular. In most Western AAA games today, the protagonist usually looks either like this or like this. In Japanese AAA games, on the other hand, the way the characters look vary considerably, from Cloud Strife and Lightning to Solid Snake and Kazama Kiryu.

There's also a difference in how the characters are written. In most Western games, most leading protagonists usually fall into the strong, stoic, tough-guy archetype, to avoid ruining the fantasy of many male gamers in their teens & 20's. In most Japanese games, on the other hand, they focus a lot on the flaws of leading protagonists, almost to the annoyance of that same Western teens-20's male demographic. Japanese characters don't get the whole "angsty" reputation for no reason, even though angstiness is more representative of most humans than the stoicism we usually get from most leading Western protagonists.

sorry your both wrong as usual.... all you are refering to is mostly military games....

I'm not making lists for you... but clearly you cant see past your own noses.

Avatar image for Jag85
#83 Edited by Jag85 (10800 posts) -

@MBirdy88 said:

@Jag85 said:

@MBirdy88 said:

@platinumking320 said:

@Jag85 said:

Nope, the majority of protagonists in Japanese games are Japanese. However, a significant minority of Japanese games do have white protagonists, mainly the ones targeted towards Western audiences. Japanese games do tend to feature more diverse characters, because their games are usually targeted towards more diverse audiences... which is ironic, since Japan is relatively homogeneous compared to America, yet Japanese developers do a better job of representing diversity in their games.

Follows the trend of extreme self-indulgence in American entertainment. Now I love me some self-indulgence but at least other countries know how to frame that stuff carefully in isolation and buildup for the sake of the friggin STORY, or tell people its straight up campy when they decide to go all out with TNA, gun porn, tech and fantasy. Not to say we don't have our diamonds-in-the-rough for good gamemaking and storytelling here.

Some might look at it as guys self-indulgence. Hey, it is what is. but we're unreasonably drowning and saturated in our commercialism of power material and conquest, to the point theres little context to our celebration of ourselves. Our warriors look more like villains than heroes.

Japan is humbled by their spiritual balance, perception of conflict, and greater community. They gave us Cloud Strife, Solid Snake and Squall Leonhart from 15 yrs ago and look at how quick they became massive teenage icons to boys and girls that played the series, because of their angst and not because of their outward power. The fact it is a post nuke society with people who like the same things we Americans like but aren't so full of themselves in their entertainment exports. So its okay for them to be blatant cheese or realistic. We might not get it, but I certainly do.

I'm not even American so don't use that card when I say this... but I've never read such obvious "Oh I like to rebel and say another culture (stereo typically Japanese... who are ironically are a very insular nation themselves.. and your more likely to have americans interested in their culture/games than the Japanese are in western games in general) to sound cool" kinda crowd...

You honestly believe what your saying? Cloud is Japan's equivalent and Squall to a white male lead which all the females rally around for no explained reason other than the buffer the player.... and they are very much "The dominant powerful leader male" ... "oh but their angst" .... oh please... for some reason cloud and squall are considered far stronger (don't bring stats into the arguement..) they are the equivilant... why? because funnily enough Japan is no different. powerful *ideal skin coloured* males with a cast of supporting females usually sexuilised up the wazoo is the major player just like the west.

Snake? hes based on a western character..... he acts like a typical western lead male.... (but ofcourse, a tad different being from an outside perspective).

That's what makes it all the more ironic... The Japanese game industry demonstrate a greater diversity in their games, despite the nation they're from being more insular. In most Western AAA games today, the protagonist usually looks either like this or like this. In Japanese AAA games, on the other hand, the way the characters look vary considerably, from Cloud Strife and Lightning to Solid Snake and Kazama Kiryu.

There's also a difference in how the characters are written. In most Western games, most leading protagonists usually fall into the strong, stoic, tough-guy archetype, to avoid ruining the fantasy of many male gamers in their teens & 20's. In most Japanese games, on the other hand, they focus a lot on the flaws of leading protagonists, almost to the annoyance of that same Western teens-20's male demographic. Japanese characters don't get the whole "angsty" reputation for no reason, even though angstiness is more representative of most humans than the stoicism we usually get from most leading Western protagonists.

sorry your both wrong as usual.... all you are refering to is mostly military games....

I'm not making lists for you... but clearly you cant see past your own noses.

It's not just military games though... Even in non-military AAA games, the protagonist usually looks like this... which is basically similar to the military protagonist archetype, but with slightly more brown hair on his head.

Avatar image for The_Last_Ride
#84 Posted by The_Last_Ride (76371 posts) -

@wiouds: Really? COD is making improvments for gaming in general? Seriously? AC games might improve, but what have they really done for the industry since AC 2? You do know games like Walking Dead, Journey and Braid all pushed storytelling a lot?

Avatar image for wiouds
#85 Posted by wiouds (6233 posts) -

@Jacanuk said:

@wiouds said:

@The_Last_Ride: So does the AAA games. My problem comes from those that mindlessly refuse to accept that AAA games are improving gaming while using that same lack of thinking to praise indie games for every thing.

There are good indie games but I am not going to elevate them higher because they are indie games.

Is there good and bad Indie games of couse, but do please explain how anual COD/BF releases are improving anything? or all the AAA titles that are just a repeat of other titles, all the mindless FPS shooters coming out, and take a good look at the games be shown at E3 how many were just shooters, carracing games with a twist or the same 3rd player open game. Pretty much all of them, with the exception of a few games.

And then look at indie games, indie basically revived adventure games, city-building, strategy games not to mention some of the biggest games in the last few years has been from the indie scene not the AAA.

Does that mean that there isent bad indie games like Aircontrol and similiar of course not but its a lot easier to find a hit among 200 games then it is to find it among 5.

Look at the staging of the shootout in FPS and how far they have come. Where to the enemies come from and how the area is set up. How many times do you just take the time to look at shootouts and where they are stage? It is not something you think about that much, right? The have a part where you need to defend a base where they are three access points. One close quarter, one open and slopped and the other is wide open with vehicles allowed to come through.

On the other side look at the Wolfenstein the new order where they are two level that are mostly just narrow tunnels. I never want to go back to doom 2 or 3 style of shootouts. (I am talking about shootout and not the exploration.)

I would give the revived of those to the more mid-level game companies. I would like to see is a more of a AA games but they seem to be fading away as more indie games are coming out.

AAA gamers are still the most polished and refined games as a whole out there and they have large scopes. Indie games normally come up with a new ideal but other than those ideal the rest of the game is given a free pass.

How many of these indie games can make it into a AAA game? I am sorry but I do not see that many.

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#86 Posted by wiouds (6233 posts) -

@The_Last_Ride said:

@wiouds: Really? COD is making improvments for gaming in general? Seriously? AC games might improve, but what have they really done for the industry since AC 2? You do know games like Walking Dead, Journey and Braid all pushed storytelling a lot?

AC as done a number of tiny things they have tried.

Storyteling is one of the biggest problem that video games face. How many game out there have bad game play but are praised for having a good story. It is becoming a crutch.

Avatar image for The_Last_Ride
#87 Posted by The_Last_Ride (76371 posts) -

@wiouds said:

@The_Last_Ride said:

@wiouds: Really? COD is making improvments for gaming in general? Seriously? AC games might improve, but what have they really done for the industry since AC 2? You do know games like Walking Dead, Journey and Braid all pushed storytelling a lot?

AC as done a number of tiny things they have tried.

Storyteling is one of the biggest problem that video games face. How many game out there have bad game play but are praised for having a good story. It is becoming a crutch.

I would rather play something like Walking Dead with heavy choices and an awesome story than a generic COD any day of the week dude