NPD: US April game revs spike on GTAIV

I'm Australian and I've got a Great idea for a U.S. exlusive multiplatform game release. Its called... 'HOW TO VOTE' , lol.

I don't think the ps3 is really struggling anywhere except for here in the states. But seeing how us americans are, we don't care about anything that doesn't happen here in the states so we wouldn't really now about these world events.

Darkrider most PS3 consoles were bought as cheap alternatives to more expensive bluray players. The PS3 has been around for over a year now yet the game catlogue is average at best , especially with the poor exclusives (other than resistance). I'm not taking this whole debate personally I own neither a PS3 nor a 360 I'm a PC gamer, it dosent take Einstein to see that the PS3 is struggling regardless of any slight increase in sales.

darkride66 ducks big time...!!! stop all these comments of yours.. let some1 else speeak for a bit..!!

LOOKS good to me, hopefully the slow us markets wont hurt the gaming market.....I think way to many people are trying to look into a crystal ball the doesn't exsist. None of the console makers are going to fail in case you guys haven't noticed yet. One last thing PS3 isn't going to surpass the 360 anytime soon and sure in the hell isn't going to pass the wii either, so get over it. The best sony can hope for is a tie with MS in 5 years.....lmao

If you think PSP = PS3 then frankly there is not much else that needs to be said. What a total bunch of fanboi nonsense..."lets add all the products together so mine is bigger then yours"...nan-nah-nan-nah-na... And any game in this market that is merely average...is not worth playing. People complain almost constantly about not having enough time and too many things to play...and with all that you're going to waste time on HAZE?

darkride66 Your sales predictions are going to be fales, there is no way the PS3 is out selling the 360 a million every 4 months. By your prediction the PS3 would have 23 million or more consoles sold worldwide by next fall which is unrealistic, since the 360 is at 19 or 20 million; the 360 would have 26 million or more consoles by next fall.

@ mattxavier. Don't forget the US is just one market. The PS3 is currently outselling the 360 by roughly one million consoles every 4 months or so worldwide. Assuming even a slight acceleration of those numbers when their big guns start firing we're looking at the PS3 catching up to the 360 in worldwide sales sometime in about fall of next year. Price cuts for both could change that. I wouldn't worry about the PS3 at all. Also, HAZE appears average, which is a far cry from garbage. In fact, I'm wrapping this up right now because my wife's bugging me to play it with her. Peace!

Based on these numbers I doubt that the PS3 will do exceptionally well this year. If a game with such mass appeal like GTA:IV could be outsold by the 360 version and Mario Kart on the Wii then Sony definately have problems on the game side of things. Metal Gear Solid is not as popular as GTA and Haze was garbage, the other major PS3 exlclusive - Gran Turismo looks good but will definately face competition from GRID. Resistance 2 looks like it could alleviate the damage but who knows?

@ PSWi60 - Sure PC games count if you are talking about "games". I, and Darkride apparently, were specifically talking about "consoles", not games. And you are 110% right PSWi60 when you say "Besides if console A is outselling console B does that mean your console B stops being fun??? " Amen... Amen. :D And with that, I think this thread has truly and fully run it's course. Hahaha...

"Nineball2112 said ""but... but... MS also sells operating systems, so MS > Sony!"" Yeah, I read some trying to make that argument the other day. I tried in vain to mention that the PSP and PS2 are still gaming machines but they insisted, as I know you're aware that if you include PSP and PS2 sales for Sony than you should include Windows sales for MS. Not quite the same thing, chums." So PC games don't count cmon so some love for our crysis brothers. Besides if console A is outselling console B does that mean your console B stops being fun??? Really the only sales that should affect the average gamer is.... Is it above the death/coma level? All are Do your friends have it? Varies I doubt highly people in the games industry go to gamespot for its news Great now my hands hurt can't we all just get along? Oh but I feel evil so if anyone is still reading this I'll add another 100 comments with this. I like VISTA!!!!

Nineball2112 said ""but... but... MS also sells operating systems, so MS > Sony!"" Yeah, I read some trying to make that argument the other day. I tried in vain to mention that the PSP and PS2 are still gaming machines but they insisted, as I know you're aware that if you include PSP and PS2 sales for Sony than you should include Windows sales for MS. Not quite the same thing, chums.

@ darkscorcher - Yep, you're right darkscorcher... but watch out or some people who think they are being clever will come back and try to change the fact that you are looking at the numbers for the console sales listed above only. They'll try to throw out things like..."but... but... MS also sells operating systems, so MS > Sony!" * rolls eyes * Yep, the ps2 and the psp are definately helping Sony, not that the PS3 is doing poorly.

[This message was deleted at the request of the original poster]

Wow, even though sony is losing money on each ps3 sold, they are still making more money than microsoft because they are still selling ps2 and psp out the ying yang.

lol after my eyes started to bleed.... can u both just keep your mouths shut? lol

Makaatsu. Way to change the subject. How did this become about the PS2? My original point was regarding whether the PS3 could catch the 360 and what kind of time frame. Did you hear me say the PS2 didn't have supply problems? You're the only one arguing this. Again. So let's look at the facts. The PS2 had a bad launch due to supply problems. Went on to sell 120 million. Did anyone dispute this? I don't see anyone disputing this. Someone must have said this wasn't true because you have a post as long as a child's arm stating that the PS2 had supply issues. NO ONE SAID IT DIDN'T! So, when looking at sales of the PS2 vs the PS3 or 360, you're argument is we can't compare the PS2 to, well anything, until almost a year in because of supply issues? Like I said, I guess the Wii's numbers don't count because they've had supply issues for the last year as well. The first quarter this year the 360 had supply issues. I guess those don't count either. This would be easier to understand if you had a coherent point in there somewhere. What does any of this have to do with current PS3 sales, which is what we were talking about?

Let's so if I can go back to the beginning and try something that may be Makaatsu approved. getoconnection said. "You do realize MS would have to stop developing 360s for the PS3 to catch up." I disagree. Currently the gap between the PS3 and 360 is 6 million units worldwide (I don't think Makaatsu would have issue with this. These are official numbers.) The PS3 and 360 have been neck and neck since the holiday season. Since then, Jan - March the PS3 has out sold the 360 by approx 700,000 units and since then it has increased it's lead by another 300000 to the present. A drop in sales can be expected after the Christmas season, however the Jan-May period this year over the Jan-May period last year shows a sharp increase in the sales of both consoles. If sales continue at the same pace as they've set in the first 5 months of this year we can expect the PS3 to catch up to the 360 within 1.5 to 2 years. Of course, price cuts and AAA titles can affect these numbers, but the PS3 catching the 360 certainly does not look like an unattainable goal in the near future. That was all I was trying to say. Is this so complicated or so radical an idea that Makaatsu had to spend so much time cluttering up the forums and trying to bully people off? I don't think so. Also, if I understand this, don't compare sales of the PS2 to the PS3. The PS2 had supply issues and had a slow start. It's not a fair comparison.

Makaatsu. You mean much like how the PS3 wasn't available worldwide until March of last year after a limited launch in Japan and North America? So both the PS2 and PS3 had slow starts for various reasons. So, your saying the PS2 wasn't available to buy in March of 2000, because for a second there it looks like you said it was available in Japan, meaning it launched in March of 2000, just like Wikipedia says. Give it a rest. Clearly you are wrong in this case. I don't care where the PS2 was available, it launched in March of 2000. Fact. You saying "A ha! It was launched, but it wasn't! That's a fact!" What the hell is that? They moved a million consoles in a day. That sure looks like it launched to me, despite only being in Japan. Using your logic we can't count any sales of the 360 for the first quarter of this year, because they had supply issues. Hell, the whole run of the Wii has had supply issues, do any of those console sales count?

Makaatsu said "And for the 2nd time in this news thread you have again tried to say the PS3 is doing aswell as the PS2 did for the sametime. Which is false." So, the PS3 has been out 18 months now and is just over 13 million. Let's have a look at the PS2 data then, shall we? Ok, launched March of 2000, 18 months out would be Aug of 2001 and vgchartz gives us 12.89 million. Hmm. I wonder how I could have made this correlation? I'm so done talking to you. My point was the PS3 has been unfairly tagged as the system that no one is buying. I proved my point. Feel free to nitpick away, it doesn't affect my underlying argument one iota.

Makaatsu said "Then when you can't back up your claims you try and turn into a neutral." Dude, I've backed up every claim I've made! And I am neutral! I have all systems, play all systems, wish for the success of all three, that's why I'm not a blinded fanboy, because it doesn't matter to me which one wins, I've got em all! How many Sony Fanboys love Mario, and Bioshock, and Zelda, and Halo and have a gamertag which shows they play em all, or that they'd rather play Fable 2 than MGS4? If this doesn't sound like the usual Sony Fanboy BS it's probably because I mean what I say! Each system is great and has it's strong points, and titles! And I said one million roughly every quarter. You see how I did that? I said roughly, because it's not exact, and I never claimed it to be. To me, roughly one quarter could be a quarter plus a little bit, like Jan - April, where they sold about a million more. You're just splitting hairs. Bottom line - PS3 ain't doing all that bad. Did you ever try looking at Hardware from Launch and chart the PS2, PS3 and 360, or do you just ignore data you don't like?

@ Makaatsu. If you had read my post you would see that the only reason I went to vgchartz was because apparently that's what OpWolf thought legitimized your posts. Whatever. Also, I said 1 million consoles in ROUGHLY one quarter. vgchartz isn't terribly accurate and we know they undertrack the PS3 based on Sony's shipped numbers. Considering we don't know completely accurate numbers I don't try to debate them BECAUSE WE DON'T KNOW THE EXACT AMOUNT. You don't, I don't. Only Sony and MS know. DROP IT! The only thing we can do is make generalizations given the data we have. Which I did, to illustrate a point. AND FOR THE LOVE OF GOD STOP ARGUING SALES HAVE DROPPED OFF FROM THE HOLIDAYS! We all know they have, we're not idiots. No one has said differently. I've never said they didn't because that would be ludicrous. Of course sales dropped off from Christmas. Forget it. I don't know why I bother. You want to argue slowing sales since Christmas, be my guest. Let's just agree that the PS3 is currently outselling the 360 worldwide and both are getting beat by the Wii and move on with our lives. Because I really don't care.

@Darkride, "Lets be honest, no one comes on these forums and argues the 360 is doing poorly." I will disagree with you there. It may seem one sided in favor of the 360 in some forums, but that is due to the subject of the news story. If you go to news articles talking about MGS or Sony or it's upcoming game line up, you will see a lot more pro Sony MS bashing posts. I've seen a lot of misinformation coming from both sides. I remember reading someone's response to you saying you were right and then at the end of the post he said the PS3 is going to obliterate the 360. I admit you, Makastsu, Yuck_Too, and a few others at least have the most intelligent of the arguments. I will say there are fewer people that defend the PS3 reasonably like you than people that defend the 360 reasonably, such as Makaatsu and Yuck_Too. But everybody tends to put a spin on it one way or the other. I myself favor MS over Sony because I favor it's exclusives and didn't think I should have to buy another multi-tap for the PS2 to play 4 player games, when even the N64 and Dreamcast have 4 controller ports. Thus, I respond to you about things I disagree with, and usually don't correct someone that says something pro 360. Anyway, I personally want to see 360 sales slump enough for MS to drop the price, but then see sales go back up. I've never paid more than $200 for a console. Although I will probably break that rule with the 360 because I doubt the next price drop will put it at that number. I paid $500 for an HD DVR receiver because I use it all the time, but I don't have enough time to play games enough to justify paying $350 or more for a console, especially when I have a ton of Xbox, Gamecube, and Dreamcast games to finish.

@ goldeneye_basic. Yeah, I realized that because the totals are so close to official ship numbers, but one million off in one region? That's quite a bit. That's why I only use vgchartz as a rough guide to what's going on and will defer to official numbers when available. Still they're pretty close with the PS3 and I like their charts. Lets be honest, no one comes on these forums and argues the 360 is doing poorly, it's always attacks on the PS3 which apparently "is selling poorly". I like to illustrate PS3 sales with vgchartz because they are fairly accurate with those numbers, just as I like to point out metacritic.com when illustrating that the PS3 does indeed have games, and they're quite well received by critics as well. I come out looking like I'm a big "go Sony" guy simply because that's the console most of the misinformation is directed towards, but I'm just as defensive with arguments like "every 360 breaks down," or "360 only has shooters." It's complete nonsense. I'm just a gamer who happens to abhor when people choose to bash other gamer's console choices. Each system will appeal to each gamer uniquely. No one should try to take that away from enthusiastic gamers, or make them feel unwelcome in these forums simply due to their console choice.

@Darkride "True, but their US numbers are almost a million off according to MS's statements. The total is the same, but what gives there." I knew you would mention that. What that means is VGchartz has then underestimated the rest of the world for 360 sales. It has 11.79M for US sales. 11.79M (VGchartz) - 10M (actual) = 1.79M (over). 19M (actual) - 18.89M (VG) = 110K (under). 1.79M + 110K = 1.9M. So that is 1.9 million consoles VGchartz has under estimated that MS has sold for the rest of the world.

@ goldeneye_basic. And good post, by the way. It's nice to see some people are willing to do some checking themselves. Sony was just shy of 13 million at the end of their last quarter (march 31 for them) You get a thumbs up from me.

goldeneye_basic said "Vgchartz is updated to May 10th and has the PS3 at 12.6M and the 360 to 18.89M so it has underestimated both consoles." True, but their US numbers are almost a million off according to MS's statements. The total is the same, but what gives there? I've never said to just use vgchartz as they have to update their data from time to time as reliable numbers come up. My point in linking to vgchartz was OpWolf was saying Makaatsu had to be right, because he posted sources. I just did the same thing to illustrate, with a hearty "Don't just use one source" disclaimer. But at this point I don't care. Logical debate has left these forums. I'm done talking this console war nonsense against every 360 fanboy that thumps his chest every time NPD numbers come out. Anyone with half a brain knows that's not the whole storey. I was trying to bring rational discussion back. Looks like I failed.

You know what, don't even bother answering. I'm done. You're all right. The PS3 isn't selling more units worldwide, it's all a lie. Quite frankly I don't care who moves the most consoles and, although I follow shipment info just out of curiousity, arguing with people who just throw up different numbers is no fun at all. It's pointless. Believe what you want to believe. I'm out.

@Darkride, since you are now saying that vgchartz.com is unreliable, maybe you shouldn't use it anymore to back up your arguments. Also, if Sony says they sold 13 million, that tells me they are rounding, because I doubt they sold exactly 13 million consoles. That number could be 12.9 million, 13.1 million, or it could be down to 12.5 million. After typing that I did a search and found two websites that state as of May 14th, Sony has sold 12.81 million PS3's << LINK REMOVED >> and 12.85 million PS3's << LINK REMOVED >> The second one reads as if it is from an official Sony source. This story says as of May 15th, the Xbox has sold 19 million << LINK REMOVED >> Vgchartz is updated to May 10th and has the PS3 at 12.6M and the 360 to 18.89M so it has underestimated both consoles. @Makatsu, the third quarter starts July 1st, not June 1st. There has been less than 5 months of sales this year not 6.

OpWolf said "I dont have to proove you wrong darkride66." I don't know what to say. So if you're unwilling to check to see if I'm right yourself, what gives you the right to accuse me of lying? Did you look at Makaatsu's numbers. He's not lying, he's just talking about something different and trying to relate. If you think those links he provided are good as gold I'll use the same ones. PS3 ship numbers for last quarter. << LINK REMOVED >> 360 ship for last quarter. << LINK REMOVED >> Difference: about 700,000 give or take (bear in mind official numbers from Sony and Microsoft prove vgchartz is tracking the 360 high and the PS3 low) So, as I said, PS3 is outselling the 360 by one million units roughly every quarter. There's your proof. And if you bother checking it out, I'd also recommend << LINK REMOVED >> Run the "Hardware from Launch" graph with the PS2, PS3 and 360 and tell me that the PS3 isn't looking pretty damn good. Seriously, think for yourself, do your own research and believe everything you read from these posts. Makaatsu doesn't have a leg to stand on and he knows it. Case in point, he argues vehemently that the PS3 is in trouble because sales have fallen since Christmas. Give me a break! His goal is to bash Sony at every term. I'm simply a gamer who enjoys all three systems but is fed up with the misinformation that circulates on these forums and I try to balance these arguements with facts to help gamers to inform themselves. I love my 360. I'm more looking forward to Fable 2 than MGS4. Read Makaatsu blogs sometime and try to figure out what his objectives are. I've already had to get the moderators to edit out his blogs bashing me personally. Who does that kind of thing?

OpWolf said "You can fight fact against opinion all you like but it won't change a thing. " Really, I thought I'd comment on this one again, because I find it so funny. Did you bother to look into these numbers? Before you labelled my statement "opinion", did you check, and where did you go? Because I have fact firmly behind me on everything I've posted and have the company's offical numbers to back me up. Had you bothered to check this out you couldn't have missed it which can only lead me to believe that you didn't bother. Makaatsu isn't arguing my claim, because he knows the numbers from official channels support what I say. What he's trying to do is to confuse and misdirect, quote numbers from only one market, and spin spin spin! It's because he can't refute what I'm saying. For the love of god, before you post anything..please...please do yourself a favor and independently verify the numbers yourself. Don't just be a follower, think for yourself. Sony's numbers are easy enough to find, but you need to do a little deductive reasoning for MS as they aren't as forthcoming with their ship figures, instead releasing ominous statements like "Microsoft's consumer hardware products may experience quality or supply problems." in their latest quarterly financial update.

Darkride You do realise the NPD figures are actually the real numbers right? All the retailers have to abide by consumer law and release POS (point of sale). All three manafacturers use the NPD to gauge their sales... If it was not legit as you try to claim then why would every media source aswell as the PR groups for the consoles release statements after each posting of figures? I think that shows some serious misunderstandings of the media and buisness on your behalf. As for the estimates does it not say they have the 360 on 18.89m? Didn't MS a few months ago release figures saying they had sold 19m units?! That is pretty damn close. So they may haver over estimated america but that would mean they under estimated somewhere else. It is the same with the PS3. They have it on 12.61m. But Sony said they sold 13m. Which again is pretty damn close. So that would again mean they have under estimated however it also means the figures total is pretty acurate. So now you back track and say you were talking about 1 quarter....Jan to March. So your claim of the PS3 selling an extra 1m over the 360 in this time. So lets look at that claim.... 1st jan to 1st march = PS3 worldwide sales = 1.7m units << LINK REMOVED >> 360 = 1.3m units << LINK REMOVED >> So that is 400k extra in 3 months not 1m..... To get 1m extra you would have to do 9 months. So you say you challenge OpWolf to prove you wrong. He dosen't need to because you are wrong, you say opinion like it is fact. You say opinion like it is common knowledge, you say opinion then when people show your opinion to be wrong you squirm and try and bend your statements. So darkride you are wrong. Again.....And you wonder why everyone dislikes you on here.

Makaatsu said " So let me get this straight. Vgchartz over estimates for the 360 and under estimates for the PS3?" Um, yeah. It looks like it, based on the recent official numbers from each company. vgchartz has about 11 million sold in the US of the 360, MS said they just hit 10. Sony says they've sold 13 million, vgchartz has 12.6. We're talking offical numbers here, not NPD numbers. Companies revise their shipping estimates all the time. Quite frankly I could care less how many consoles Sony moved, or the Wii, or the 360, so long as they're selling enough to promote a healthy gaming industry. I was talking about one quarter, ie, till the end of March. It was you who started yelling about 6 months. As for OpWolf, prove me wrong. Here's a challenge for you. Look up these numbers and prove me wrong, because Makaatsu is certainly struggling with it. (I like how he calls the NPD numbers "official" That's cute.)

I can't for the life of me figure how any of this matters to you people. Could someone please explain. Honestly, I'm totally perplexed. Unless you have some serious stock in these companies, why do you care who is on top? It would seem to me that as long as all the companies are bringing in money, good games will continue to flow.

getoconnection. Of course the rate could change. I've said that, over and over, even given various factors that could effect this change. End result is simple. The 360 has a 6 million console lead. Last quarter the PS3 oversold the 360 by one million units. If the PS3 continues in this fashion it will catch up in 6 quarters, a year and a half. This isn't rocket science. AAA titles from the PS3, or the 360, in conjunction with a price cut for either of them and this could all change. Why are you all arguing a point that is so simple?

5 years and 3 months. By then this gen would be over so ya. calculations: months*rate = total units 360: 29 months*x= 19 million PS3: 17months*y=12.81 million 360 rate: x = .655 PS3 rate: y = .754 PS3 number of months = 360 number of months -12 => time to catch 360 = 360 number of months *.655 = ( 360 number of months -12 ) * .754 time to catch 360 = 92 months already 29 months so its 92-29 = 63 months = 5.25 years this is a simple way of calculating it because of course the rate can change which will require calculus you cant predict the change of rate - audioaxes ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Give it a rest darkride66....

Makaatsu said"Dude seriously where do you get these figures of yours from it's embarassing." You're funny. Microsoft and Sony's own official numbers put the 360 at 19 million and the PS3 at 13 million. That is not in dispute. Vgchartz looks to be undertracking the PS3 numbers and over tracking the 360 numbers. MS said themselves that they just hit 10 million in the US, vgchartz shows 11 million. At the end of march (count with me, month 3 in the year) the PS3 had outsold by about 700000. Since we know they overtrack the 360 (based on Microsoft's numbers) and seem to undertrack the PS3 (off by about 400000 according to Sony) I think it's safe to estimate about a million units per quarter. Dude, you can't count, can't compare numbers from more than one source, don't know how many months are in a quarter... how do you expect anyone to buy into your arguments? Lucky for me, anyone can verify what I said is true. Good luck following your logic. And then you try to argue again that the PS3 sales have declined since, wait for it, since the Christmas season. I don't think anyone needs be concerned of a sales drop after Christmas. And remember, vgchartz is just one source. You have to check other sites and cross reference from official numbers. They're only a fan site.

@Darkride Dude seriously where do you get these figures of yours from it's embarassing. At least wolf admits he is a fanboy... But here we go again. Another day, another post where i have to correct you. PS3 sales WORLDWIDE from 1st January untill today = 3.8m << LINK REMOVED >> 360 sales WORLDWIDE from 1st January untill today = 2.8m << LINK REMOVED >> So we are under 2 weeks from the 6th month of the year and in 6 months the PS3 made 1m extra. That is 2 quarters not 1... So because there is a 6m unit difference and the PS3 makes up a million units every 6 months would mean it will take 3 years for the PS3 to catch up to the 360. To put this into perspective for you Darkride if you take the previous 6 months before this (june 1st to december 31st) you will see the PS3 sold 5m units << LINK REMOVED >> So that means in the previous 6 months the PS3 has DROPPED 1.2m units. Again more proof for you the PS3 is declining in sales....But of course you wont listen will you.

darkride66 if the PS3 has out sold the 360 every quarter by a million then it would have surpassed it already or would be very close, also dont count out the 360s line-up.

slickr said of the Wii, "Not to mention the boring games, that can be fun only to 10yrs old kids and only for a small amount of time before get boring!" Actually, the demographics show the average video age of the video game player in the US is 33 years old. Average age of the Wii player, 29. Quite frankly, the majority of the Wii owners I know personally are over 40. Mine isn't played all that frequently, but these 40 somethings love em I know love em. Go figure.

getoconnection said. "You do realize MS would have to stop developing 360s for the PS3 to catch up. A one million console difference won't close the gap fast enough to even out by Next Gen." Ok, let's have a look, shall we? The PS3 is outselling the 360 by one million consoles roughly every quarter. The 360 has a 6 million console lead worldwide. Assuming everything continues as it is now (and the PS3 doesn't move more units when RFOM2, LBP, MGS4, etc, etc hit) then the PS3 should be even with the 360 by about the middle of next year. Now a price cut on both sides would affect these numbers, but as it looks now it seems pretty inevitable. Hardly the scenario you describe.

WTF? Why is the crappy WII selling so much? 1mhz cpu, 1mb memory and crappy graphic card and yet its selling like "ALVA"! Not to mention the boring games, that can be fun only to 10yrs old kids and only for a small amount of time before get boring!

darkride66 You do realize that the PS3 has sold over one million consoles more than the 360 since the start of the year worldwide? They're both great systems, but maybe you should pick and choose your battles better. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ You do realize MS would have to stop developing 360s for the PS3 to catch up. A one million console difference won't close the gap fast enough to even out by Next Gen. Heck by the time the PS3's 10 years rolls around we'll all be gaming on the next Xbox after 2 price cuts. Speaking of Price cuts... The 360 is 2 more away from opening the flood gates on the PS3. 1st to $200 wins!!

getoconnection said "Ahh.. A day in the life of a Sony Fanboy, always looking froward to next month as if the numbers will magically be different...." You do realize that the PS3 has sold over one million consoles more than the 360 since the start of the year worldwide? They're both great systems, but maybe you should pick and choose your battles better.

@geto - Great work!