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German group sues Valve

Federation of German Consumer Organizations claims Steam users own the games they purchase and should be able to re-sell them.

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The Federation of German Consumer Organizations (VZBV) has filed suit against Half-Life maker Valve, claiming users should be able to resell the games they own.

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As reported by PCAdvisor, VZBV project manager Carola Elbrecht said Steam users should have the means to sell their digital wares, much in the same way that gamers can sell boxed products at their discretion.

"If I pay the full price for a game, then why am I not allowed to do with it what I want," Elbrecht said.

The VZBV reportedly warned Valve about potential legal action in September, but the company did not amend its practices to comply with the group's demands. Thus, the VZBV sued Valve in the District Court of Berlin this week.

A Valve representative told GameSpot that it has yet to see a formal complaint from the VZBV.

"We are aware of the press release about the lawsuit filed by the VZBV, but we have not yet seen the actual complaint," the company said. "That said, we understand the complaint is somehow regarding the transferability of Steam accounts, despite the fact that this issue has already been ruled upon favorably to Valve in a prior case between Valve and the VZBV by the German supreme court. For now, we are continuing to extend the Steam services to gamers in Germany and around the world."

The VZBV's prior legal entanglement with Valve went all the way to the German Federal Court of Justice. A judge ruled in 2010 that Valve's prohibition of user account transfers did not violate German law.

A European court ruled last summer that content creators can't prohibit post-purchase redistribution of work, no matter what end-user license agreement says.

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hasherr

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I know it would be awesome to resell digital content indefintely , but i can easily see why this is undesirable. So i buy game, sell it to my buddy for 1$, later i buy it back for 1$. And so on till all my skypefriends are played it. Developer gots 1$, whole bunch played it. Story is different with real/nondigital goods, where your product gets worse with every new user. Digital content must be handled diferently, but i agree that no-resell at all is not best solution. I say you are able to resell digital good once every 3 months or smth. That would be fair to both developer and customer.

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ArabrockermanX

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@hasherr Valve could easily establish a small transaction fee or even make you use their store for resell that could pay publishers.

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everyday182

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@ArabrockermanX @hasherr Wow the first sensible counter argument well played lad!

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emperiox

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@hasherr But you're hitting on used games in general then, not just digital games. So should you only be able to sell one of your games irl only once every 3 months? OFC not, that's dumb. The fact of the matter is that it costs less to produce a digital game over a physical game. People can sell physical games, so why should we not be able to sell our digital games. A digital product is STILL a product, even if you paid for it.

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4nationfury

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Edited By 4nationfury

@emperiox @hasherr The problem here is you're siding with the consumer to an extreme, with no consideration for how it will hurt Valve and game companies. Valve already does ridiculously cheap sales throughout the year. Heck, they made Team Fortress free to play.

Physical or digital, making games is still costly and reselling a digital copy opens up a whole mess of troubles you are all too eager to ignore.

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everyday182

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@theman654654sda @emperiox @4nationfury @hasherr Agreed Digital copys NEVER degrade there for it CAN be SOLD FOREVER , Cars Houses and other physical goods cannot, they get wrecked from usage.

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theman654654sda

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Edited By theman654654sda

@emperiox @4nationfury @hasherr

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theman654654sda

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@emperiox @4nationfury @hasherr Getting a used car is a lot different than getting a used digital game. 1 digital game could be passed around the world, but by the time the car got to the third person, it would be a wreck.

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4nationfury

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@emperiox @4nationfury @hasherr Nobody said it is or isn't. I flat out stated private resells hurt profits. I'm sure car owners can resell their cars to all their buddies for 5 bucks. But to act as if the way this can be easily exploited with a digital product is not dangerous, is just plain careless and ignorant. How about reading hasherr and the others' points and considering how this can effect the company. Piracy hurts Valve. Digital resells (especially unmonitored) will hurt Valve too.

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Avatar image for emperiox
emperiox

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@4nationfury @emperiox @hasherr But why is that any different from people buying and selling used cars then? I guarantee it costs a hell of alot more money to make a car model than a video game...

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4nationfury

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@emperiox @4nationfury @hasherr Of course they are losing money. Private resells do hurt companies. If the buyer resells to another gamer than the game company loses a sale they could have made selling a new game.

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emperiox

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@4nationfury @emperiox @hasherr Someone has already purchased that product though, so it's not like video game companies will be losing any money at all. Why does your logic not apply to cars, houses, tv's etc...i mean those are products that people have paid for too aren't they?

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Tery15

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Everybody have a right to resell a game if he own buy it. This is law and any of Eula can't break it. Everything what valve actually doing is breaking our constitutional right. We have to fight for the laws.

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emperiox

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I don't see why people are dogging on the German group for, they're right. If we purchase a product, we should be able to sell it.

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Avatar image for Sudieken
Sudieken

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@emperiox You aren't purchasing a product, you're purchasing a license to play it. That license can be revoked at any time for any reason without explanation. Read the TOS.

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emperiox

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@Sudieken @emperiox Also there is nothing I hate more than companies who wanna have their cake and eat it to.
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4nationfury

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Edited By 4nationfury

@emperiox I'm sure Valve isn't too fond of buyers upset that games they probably bought for a modest five dollars on a Steam sale are whining about not being able to resell to make a quick buck.

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emperiox

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@Sudieken LOL. License my rear dude. That's the Valve lawyers passing the buck and saying "well it's not a product, it's a license". Can you play the game? Yes, then it's a product. Courts in the USA have ruled that a digital product is still a product. They actually ruled that on Piracy when the MPAA started suing people for stealing. Funny how digital games are a product when it comes to piracy, but only a license when people pay for them.

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freestyler_85

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Edited By freestyler_85

Hey guys, I wanna sell you Trine, at a low offer of $5.99 so I can buy a Big Mac,... but oh wait, steam is having another sale... Trine steam collection $0.50 !!
Darn

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MarcusFeelius

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@freestyler_85

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Sardinar

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This is so meh.

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Sanguis_Malus

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Its amazing what big companies get away with because most people don't know the actual law. Many people assume that all the terms are legally binding because Its In the small print or because they have agreed to It. If the judiciary ascertain that Its not legally binding then that's the bottom line.

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emperiox

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Edited By emperiox

@Sanguis_Malus Yeah, the amount of ignorant morons on this thread is crazy. If I sign a contract agreeing to rob a bunch of banks, that doesn't mean I have to rob a bunch of banks. Laws > Contracts...it's pretty simple.

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Kinguard73

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Edited By Kinguard73

Honestly? I wish every hard copy of a game come with a digital download option. You got a passcode so if you lose your hard copy (or with what happened to me someone broke in and stole my games and Xbox) then you can redownload via your account for free like other dlc. I LOVE Microsoft allowing me to redownload all my old dlc for free. I wish hardcopy of games come with a pass to allow me to download said game itself. I think everything should 'unlock' online I mean even a phone internet can send a bloody simple code to unlock something and who doesn't have a phone? If I can do it for WoW and all Blizzard games why not console ones?

The ONLY reason I support a game company rights is because my stuff would have no value to a thief if said material was trackable and unusable unless activated online. I do NOT support piracy (though I used to copy cassettes back in the day =) in any costly form.) Jobs are hard enough to come by no dev should be losing their shirt (or having their consoles stolen) because of people wanting to resell.

I wouldn't have bought used copies of skyrim and Mortal Kombat among other games I lost if I could have digitally be able to download them. ( I tend to want to have hardcopies of my games) Just saying.

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Avatar image for deactivated-60124c624b61f
deactivated-60124c624b61f

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@Kinguard73 can you tell me a company that doesn't allow you to redownload DLC?

Sony and Microsoft allow the redownload of DLC's

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Dr_Corndog

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Can't decide if I want Valve or the German guys to win, but this is the main reason I don't buy digital-only games unless they're really cheap.

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Arsyad00

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LOL

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The_Godfather_

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what a nonsense trip..!

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jedediahpelland

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I don't really care about selling my Steam games but I wouldn't mind being able to trade owned games in for credit towards a game I want to purchase.

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XonMeerKat

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If you give a game company your money, it's kind of like putting down an option on buying their next game, ie: they'll make more games. If game companies don't get money, they don't make games.

I live in Brazil and technology is 2 - 3 x more expensive than in the rest of the world, games included. Valve ducks this trend by selling cheaper than in the USA. Even like that I buy games on special, that's already very cheap.

Who's the greedy party here?

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emperiox

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Edited By emperiox

@XonMeerKat That's the same with any company though. It's not exclusive to just video game companies.

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Martyr77

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Edited By Martyr77

Good thing you are here to prove that gamers aren't violent..........Oh wait now I see why this is being debated politically.

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Darnasian

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@Martyr77 I have a tendency of hating greedy retards. Those Germans are a bunch of greedy assholes no different than the corporate busines men , so spare me this BS. Violence? It's allowed in movies , even Disney animations but suddenly it's banned in games? Greedy politicians much?

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jorge69696

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@Martyr77 One gamer out of millions is violent = all gamers are violent!

Nice logic.

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CyberLips

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@Darnasian Calm down buddy.

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Darnasian

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@CyberLips @Darnasian And what if I don't want to?

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Darnasian

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@Sardinar @Darnasian @CyberLips Let the world end! It's full of greedy bastards anyway. Most of them call themselves gamers.

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Sardinar

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@Darnasian @CyberLips Then the world ends.

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LtCmdrShepard

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Its a good thing considering that Valve is one of the most greedy game companies out there. I see why they don't allow it but i also see why they should. I've had 2 accounts hacked but Valve wouldnt do a thing because they wanted me to buy all the games again that i should have already owned in the first place. There games are also average at best. I hope they get whats coming.

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Sanguis_Malus

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@LtCmdrShepard It must be a dreadful experience to loose all of your legit games In such a manner. Its actually disgusting that Its happened twice.

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jorge69696

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@LtCmdrShepard Seems like someone is butthurt about valve. So, if they gave you a new account full of game (like you wanted), they shouldn't get "what's coming to them"? Nice logic.

And greedy? who else do big sales like them? Modern Warfare 3 is still 60$. Activision IS greedy.

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ultimate-k

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Edited By ultimate-k

We PC gamers can't sell disc based copies due to DRM, never mind digital downloads witch don't make sense to resell as its not a physical product, its our choice if we want to buy games from steam or not, and how the hell would reselling games on steam would work out, with all those sales? What is going to determine the price of games? Its just not going to work, and why this law suit now after all these years?

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jimmypsn

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WTF and people complain about the next xbox or ps blocking used games. Same thing. We should have the right to sell our games whether its on discs or digital form.

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toshineon

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@jimmypsn Selling digital content doesn't make that much sense to me. In the physical world, buying something second-hand is cheap because it's been owned already, and the condition of it won't be perfect. But in digital form, well, a bunch of files on someone's computer doesn't exactly degrade in quality over time. People will just sell it for full price, and then it won't make any difference anyways.

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Martyr77

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No people wouldn't. Have you seen a new copy of a game being sold by someone and the game is from a few years ago? Usually they are selling it for half the price or less. Why? Because it is an older game and the value has degraded over time.

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Darnasian

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@Martyr77 On the contrary , the value doesn't degrade , it's the technology that's advancing and giving better stuff.

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alien33

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Edited By alien33

Look, the way I see it VZBV have a point if you belong to the group of people that buy games new from Steam for prices over 45-50 euros.

However for me, a gamer that only buys from Steam when they offer sales, and has bought many new games for less than 10 euros, I just can't find the "guts" to complain to them that they won't let me re-sell my games...

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WolfGrey

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Edited By WolfGrey

Hmm i think they may be behind by many many years at this point on this one.


Ya know....since you can't typically resell even physical copies......when it comes to pc...typically...so ya...this is just stupid.

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