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German group sues Valve

Federation of German Consumer Organizations claims Steam users own the games they purchase and should be able to re-sell them.

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The Federation of German Consumer Organizations (VZBV) has filed suit against Half-Life maker Valve, claiming users should be able to resell the games they own.

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As reported by PCAdvisor, VZBV project manager Carola Elbrecht said Steam users should have the means to sell their digital wares, much in the same way that gamers can sell boxed products at their discretion.

"If I pay the full price for a game, then why am I not allowed to do with it what I want," Elbrecht said.

The VZBV reportedly warned Valve about potential legal action in September, but the company did not amend its practices to comply with the group's demands. Thus, the VZBV sued Valve in the District Court of Berlin this week.

A Valve representative told GameSpot that it has yet to see a formal complaint from the VZBV.

"We are aware of the press release about the lawsuit filed by the VZBV, but we have not yet seen the actual complaint," the company said. "That said, we understand the complaint is somehow regarding the transferability of Steam accounts, despite the fact that this issue has already been ruled upon favorably to Valve in a prior case between Valve and the VZBV by the German supreme court. For now, we are continuing to extend the Steam services to gamers in Germany and around the world."

The VZBV's prior legal entanglement with Valve went all the way to the German Federal Court of Justice. A judge ruled in 2010 that Valve's prohibition of user account transfers did not violate German law.

A European court ruled last summer that content creators can't prohibit post-purchase redistribution of work, no matter what end-user license agreement says.

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deactivated-5ec1452b3ab53

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You don't "own" digital games. You just buy the right to play them.

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wildkeny

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@SwimSwimHungry You buy the right to play them for the rest of your life, then after you resale it, you give the right to other players to play the game for the rest of their lives minus the time you have used.

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deactivated-5ec1452b3ab53

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@wildkeny @SwimSwimHungry But you don't own the right to resell the games.

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wildkeny

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Edited By wildkeny

@vault-boy @wildkeny @SwimSwimHungry For digitally copies, you won't be practically resale it forever either because the value of the game itself is degrading... and it is degrading much faster than the physical copy actually...

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vault-boy

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Edited By vault-boy

@wildkeny @SwimSwimHungry But when there is no downside to having digital resales than a vast amout (maybe even majority) of game sales will become used sales. Physical resale has flaws, the disc has degraded, the trade in costs aren't very much (and Steam wouldn't be able to make to buy and sell games back like Gamestop does, they can't be a middleman), and you have to physically go to the store. That is the only thing keeping used sales from overpowering new sales which are essential for the company to make money. It sucks but it is an undeniable truth.

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wildkeny

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@SwimSwimHungry @wildkeny Why? I have the full damn right to do anything I purchased (in this case, my right to play the game)

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RealFabioSooner

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@SwimSwimHungry That's what the EULA and the companies say, but it's not a cold, hard fact from a law standpoint. It's already been ruled by the European Union court that this doesn't apply to digital software - no matter what the EULA says, you *own* that copy. Now, I think anyone will have a hard time trying to prove to the same court that digital games are any different than digital software for that particular point.

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VenkmanPHD

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Were going to see a lot more of this argument this coming generation of consoles. I own more XBLA games than I do actual disc games. I also own more GoD than I do disc games.

I sell a lot at gamestop, I don't execpt to even be able to sell my digital purchases mind you. However, what I buy in store is almost entirely funded by what I trade to them. It really keeps my ability to play new games. I am a constant for midnight releases, but I eventually trade those back in, so I can get to the next release.

If everything went digital, I couldn't play video games as much as I do. It's a fundemental problem with this sort of 'gaming economy'.

I don't know which way I think is right. I just know change is coming for this whole thing.

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Kaobasa

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Edited By Kaobasa

It would be nice to turn our old games into steam wallet cash honestly. The money you get back wouldn't be anything outrageous. How much money could they stand to lose off of something like that? Probably not enough to hurt them...

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BravoOneActual

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Edited By BravoOneActual

Have fun storming the castle!

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Hurvl

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Edited By Hurvl

"this issue has already been ruled upon favorably to Valve in a prior case between Valve and the VZBV by the German supreme court." They're stubborn and persistent, I'll give them that, but I don't know what they hope to gain by doing this all over again. The supreme court's rulings rule supreme, there is no higher authority to go to.

Although I would like the option to sell my Steam games some day or at least trade my already played games with other Steam users, I don't see this happening and don't care much about it. I never buy games I don't see myself play for years, but the steam sales have made me buy cheap games that I might not want to put 400 + hours in, like I do with other games.

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mike300zxt

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@Hurvl I think the article is a little misleading there. Selling a whole steam account and re-selling a game are two different things, which is why the new lawsuit. The German court already ruled that EULAs can't prevent resale of a purchased game, so I think that's what this is about.

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mike300zxt

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Edited By mike300zxt

Guys, sometimes I feel like we gamers are such sheep! I'm a huge steam fan, but I also have to say that the Germans have it right. If I can sell my car/house/bike/book/dvd, why can't I sell my game? The only reason is that greedy companies are using digital technology to remove the rights we have always had. Instead, they could be creating a marketplace where selling used games earns us credit towards buying new games. It makes financial sense for them, and for us. Everyone wins, and we have the technology to do this today! So why aren't we?

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soolkiki

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HA! Wow...I can understand a physical disc, but not a digital download. That's like asking a restaurant for your money back on a meal that you fully enjoyed...

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Ledah

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@soolkiki This analogy doesn't compute...

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wildkeny

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@soolkiki So when you resale a disc copy to some other players, are you just sale them with the price of a piece of plastic since you already fully enjoyed the game itself? When you purchase a game digitally, you actually owned the right to play the game "forever", then once you later resale it, you give the right to other players to play the game "forever minus the time you have used".

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inSpectre_X

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Edited By inSpectre_X

@wildkeny @soolkiki

Or basically, it's like trying to sell your card for lifetime free buffets, but the restaurant doesn't want you to be able to.

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VenkmanPHD

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Fools, you bought a digital product. You cant actually sell that.

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wildkeny

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@VenkmanPHD Practically you can. You can buy each game in a separate account and resale that account to other users once you don't wanna play the game anymore.

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Phrosnite

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It's digital hence you own NOTHING! You are just buying a life-time license.

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olegavi323

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@Phrosnite But what if i want to give my license to a friend, i should be allowed to do that right?

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Thanatos2k

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@olegavi323 @Phrosnite Sure, give him your Steam account password.

You just can't give him one, you have to give him all of them at once.

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Phrosnite

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Edited By Phrosnite

@olegavi323 License borrowing? NO!

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H4num4n

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@Phrosnite @olegavi323 License borrowing? YES!

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commando1992

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There wasn't exactly a huge market for used PC games first place...

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DarkSaber2k

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@commando1992 Well at least here in the UK, that was entirely down to places that sold used games flat out refusing to handle used PC games, on account of the whole "make a copy and sell it back" thing.

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VenkmanPHD

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@DarkSaber2k @commando1992 no one sells used pc games here for the same reason (USA)

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DarkSaber2k

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Hey look, Germany trying to impose its will on other groups. Why does this sound familiar?

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VenkmanPHD

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@DarkSaber2k Seriously? I hardly think this qualifies for such indigence.

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DarkSaber2k

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@VenkmanPHD @DarkSaber2k Well SOMEONE was gonna Godwin the comments, why not me?

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mike300zxt

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@DarkSaber2k They are imposing their own laws on companies that operate within their borders. Guess what, every country in the world does that!

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DarkSaber2k

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Edited By DarkSaber2k

@mike300zxt @DarkSaber2k Uh huh. Which is why here in the UK I can only purchase mature Wii U store games after 11pm, right? Because I live within Germanies borders?

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DarkSaber2k

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@Cochleadoc @DarkSaber2k @RealFabioSooner There was. You totally missed it though. Try again.

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Cochleadoc

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@DarkSaber2k @RealFabioSooner

Is there a point to your rant other than: "Germany is evil!"?

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tschne

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@RealFabioSooner @DarkSaber2k well nintendo is not allowed to sell digital copies of violent games before 11pm... i'm german :P

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DarkSaber2k

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Edited By DarkSaber2k

@RealFabioSooner @DarkSaber2k Issues with Germany in the EU run a lot deeper than not being able to buy mature games until after 11pm.

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RealFabioSooner

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@DarkSaber2k Technically, you're not suffering this "because of Germany", but because the Wii U Store is run by Nintendo as a single store for many countries at once.

PSN and Live have distinct country stores so they can manage restrictions locally. Venezuela forbids any game with guns from being sold and it doesn't affect their sale in any other South American country, for example.

So in this case at least it's because of NINTENDO, not Germany.

PS.: Note that I'm not German (I'm Brazilian) and I do *not* agree with that stupid German law on selling digital games before 11 PM. But still, the hard fact is that your problem stems from Nintendo not having the infrastructure necessary to deal with country-based restrictions. No matter how much we disapprove of German law, it's their right to pass the law they want and we can't take that because a company the size of Nintendo isn't equipped to deal with it.

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DarkSaber2k

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Edited By DarkSaber2k

@mike300zxt @DarkSaber2k I was rebutting your assertion that ALL they are doing is enforcing their laws in their OWN country.


Not mentioning the war, Germany in the last few years has shown a clear and omnipresent tendency to try and manipulate other EU countries into doing things their way.

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mike300zxt

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@DarkSaber2k I'm lost, what does this have to do with the resale of digital games in Germany? Sounds like a totally separate issue to me.

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DarkSaber2k

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@VenkmanPHD @DarkSaber2k @mike300zxt That's Germany for ya.

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VenkmanPHD

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@DarkSaber2k @mike300zxt Wow... I can hardly believe that. (Not that I don't believe you, just wow) I can't imagine such a law on purchasing.

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ZetA_LatA

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/facepalm

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