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Dark Souls Creator Planning to Launch "Several New Projects"

Hidetaka Miyazaki also discusses sci-fi Dark Souls.

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Dark Souls 3 is the "turning point" in the franchise and will pave the way for something new, according to series creator Hidetaka Miyazaki.

Speaking in an interview with GameSpot, Miyazaki was asked if he has given any thought to expanding the Souls series beyond fantasy and into other genres such as sci-fi.

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"Dark Souls is my life’s work," he replied. "Everything I came up with for Dark Souls 3 is based on my personal preferences. However, Dark Souls 3 is also actually the turning point for the franchise."

Pressed on whether he would explore the sci-fi or mech genres, perhaps by applying the Souls framework to them, Miyazaki said he "definitely wants to bring the Miyazaki Touch" to them.

Miyazaki, who previously served in directorial and design capacities on Demon's Souls, Dark Souls, and Bloodborne, was appointed president of developer From Software in May 2014.

As part of his remit as president, Miyazaki intends to launch "several new projects," but didn't specify what these would be.

"I do want to work on something new," he added. "I’m pleased to hear people are interested in seeing that."

Dark Souls 3 is scheduled to launch in early 2016 for Xbox One, PlayStation 4, and PC.

The Dark Souls franchise has now shipped around 8.5 million copies across its previous instalments. This figure does not include sales of From Software's other popular games, Demon's Souls and Bloodborne.

Take a look at some screenshots from Dark Souls 3 below.

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returnofsoma42

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I don't want to sound like a broken record here but I wonder if he would consider bringing any of the Souls games or any of his other projects to Nintendo's NX platform? We all know Wii U is out of the question but given the fact that Square Enix is considering porting Final Fantasy 14 and Dragon Quest 11 to NX maybe he would consider it too?

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kazeswen

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Edited By kazeswen

@returnofsoma42: Because, nobody's gonna buy the NX, unless it turns out be one of those gimmicky Nintendo systems, like a VR Only console, or a mobile/home/mobile Hybrid Console, a or Holographic Console, or whatever wacky idea Nintendo comes up with. But regardless, if its a normal console designed to compete with PS4 or XB1 than no one will buy it because nobody trusts Nintendo after ditching WiiU in 3 years.

If its a wacky Nintendo console, it won't have a traditional userbase anyways, so its still pointless to port it.

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Mraou

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@kazeswen: We don't know enough (or barely anything) about the NX to say 'no one's gonna buy it'. Wii U was a failure for many reasons, but smarter decisions this time can help turn things around.

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Edited By kazeswen

@Mraou: I could be wrong, but it looks like a no win situation. If the NX is a traditional console designed to compete directly with XB1 and PS4, it will need to be light years more advanced like 4K resolution to compete since PS4 and XB1 will already have a huge lead this gen.

If its a not a traditional console, and its some wacky Nintendo idea, like a see through controllers, or VR, or giant Tablet with controls, or whatever gimmick they come up with, then you still won't see a port

Regardless of what the NX happens to be, I don't see it getting much third party support.

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Mraou

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@kazeswen: 4K doesn't mean anything to most people, so no, that doesn't matter a whole lot. What it needs is games and lots of them, especially in its first year. It needs to give people a sense that it's future proofed and it needs to be marketed well (both things the Wii U failed in). 3DS is the biggest selling system around the world atm at 50million+ sold since 2011 (double the PS4). If they can make it so the console also plays portable games, so you can finally play a proper Pokemon game on the TV, that would be a big selling point.

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Edited By kazeswen

@Mraou: How do you make it future proof unless you make it 4K?

If you make it the same as PS4 and XB1, who will buy it, they already have a PS4 and XB1. You gotta make it faster and more powerful than both current consoles.

Games only come with proper third party support, and that only comes when you have a powerful system that they can easily create cross platform games for, so again, the system needs to be powerful.

Making it a hybrid handheld won't do them any good for third party support, since it won't be powerful enough to handle any of the multi-plats. And third party devs hate Nintendo's wacky zanny console ideas to begin with.

Again if they make it a traditional console no one will buy it since gamers have been burned by WiiU and already own a next gen console, if they make it a wacky zanny Nintendo gimmick console, then they won't get third party support so its a lose lose situation.

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Edited By Mraou

@kazeswen: Even if it were more powerful than PS4/One, it won't be more powerful than PS5 and the next XBox, so power doesn't matter. Not to mention how expensive that would be; ideally they want to launch this thing around PS4's price point, or much lesser than it, even. Making it similar power as the current gen, and making it easy to program for and port current gen games to, would be enough to satisfy 3rd party developers.

The rumour is, Nintendo are making their own OS akin to Android that will run across their future devices. I don't think they will make a hybrid, they may just make a new portable that's weaker but runs on the same OS as the NX; that way it's easier to port games between both systems. The current problem with Nintendo is their first parties are split between either making a game for portable or console, not both. Think about how much better the Wii U could have been if you could also have played the exclusive 3DS games on it, like Animal Crossing, Fire Emblem, Zelda ALBW, Pokemon, etc. The game drought on the Wii U wouldn't have been as bad.

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kazeswen

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@Mraou: Yes but Xbox 4 and PS5 will not come out for another 5 years, so Nintendo would have a head start and be the ONLY 4K system in the market for the next 5 years. This reason alone would make many people wanna buy it.

If they make it it the same as PS4 and XB1, then nobody will buy it, because they already have an XB1 and PS4, why would they buy the same system from Nintendo just to play multiplat??? Also people have a very sour taste in their mouth from WiiU's short life span, nobody will buy another console from Nintendo unless it is a significant improvement upon WiiU. The only way for them to sell another home console so soon is to make it 4K and essential jump one generation ahead of its competition, any other way will result in failure.

Also, why on earth would you wanna play 3DS games on your TV in 2D???? That makes no since, why would I wanna play low resolution, poor graphics version of a 3DS game on my TV, I play 3DS game on 3DS in 3D. So making there own OS and making games cross compatible between consoles is not even a concern for most people, people buy consoles to play AAA games, not cheap handheld ports. This is why PSTV failed.

Bottom line unless Nintendo's NX is 4K hence future proof, it will not sell, because nobody wants to replace their WiiU which is barely 3 years old with another Nintendo console unless its light years ahead of everyone in technology, if the NX turns out to be one of those gimmick systems like a VR Only or Hybrid Handheld, it may sell, but won't pickup third party support.

And Power does matter, WiiU failed because it was not powerful enough to handle any current gen multiplats on PS4 and XB1, Nintendo forgot that the N64 was the most powerful system in that generation and was one of the best gens for Nintendo, because of that.

If Nintendo is smart they will make a 4K console and take a loss leader on each console sold, and get back on top of the console wars, they have the bankroll from Wii sales.

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Mraou

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@kazeswen: You're not factoring in the cost of releasing a 4k system at this point in time, 5 years before PS5; it would be too expensive to produce and too expensive for the consumer, we're talking above $550. That isn't how Nintendo operates; they will aim for a price point most people can easily afford; I'm thinking $250 or significantly lesser this time. The $350 launch price point was among the reasons Wii U failed.

The infrastructure wasn't in place to port 3DS games to WiiU in the first place, so it wouldn't of been easy to upscale 3DS graphics to 1080p - which would have looked fine. Their next portable needs to have a 720p screen at minimum, that's for sure. I don't know what you mean by 'cheap handheld ports' and speaking of portable games in a derogative fashion; you are on the same website that awarded Zelda: ALBW 2013's GOTY over The Last of Us, those kind of distinctions don't matter anymore. And the PSTV is a failure because it doesn't support every Vita game, also the Vita is a failure itself, and has few worthwhile games.

As for N64 being one of the best gens for Nintendo because it was most powerful, maybe subjectively it was to you, but it's factually wrong; the N64 was the start of many console mistakes made by Nintendo after the SNES. I'll let you wikipedia/google the rest for yourself; it's too much of a tangent.

They will definitely have to sell at a loss, somewhere around $250 or less, would make for a very attractive price. You have to remember the more systems they sell, the better the 3rd party support, power means nothing if people don't buy it, and they won't if it's too expensive. Will they sell as many consoles or more than PS4, who knows? I doubt it, but then again the XBox was 10m units above PS3 and Wii before they launched and they both outsold it. It's entirely up to them to go hard and bring their A-game.

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Edited By kazeswen

@Mraou: First of all I love handheld games, I play them on my handheld, thats why they are called handheld, I don't sit in my living room on my 4K tv playing low budget handheld games, when I could be playing 100millon dollar AAA games instead.

People buy home consoles to play AAA games on the big screen, thats why PSVIta failed not because Vita games were bad, in fact Vita has some of the best handheld games in the market, but thats it nobody cares to play them on their TV when the alternative is Call of Duty or MGS.

How you feel about N64 is your opinion, doesn't change the fact that it had some of the most iconic games ever made by Nintendo Ocarina, Mario 64, Golden Eye. And it lasted a full 7 years in circulation which is a hell of a lot longer than the WiiU more than twice as long.

And I'm aware that 4K systems cost more money to produce, which is why I said Nintendo needs to take a loss leader like the old days, when system manufacturers used to sell systems at a loss to build userbase and make money on software royalty.

Sadly, thats the only way Nintendo will survice one more consoles generation. They're reputation for home consoles is down the drain, nobody trusts them anymore to produce a good non handheld console, because they always make them too weak to compete and in turn tthe consoles get no third party support.

Also to correct you third party support does not come from simple userbase, Wii had massive userbase but no third party support, because it couldn't handle any of the multiplats coming out at the time. Nintendo made the big mistakes in believing in their own BS about how FUN triumphs everything. When the truth is, you must make a console every generation that rivals your opponents in raw power so that devs can port their games to it without significant downgrades.

Either Nintendo plays catchup by replacing the WiiU with a PS4 equivalent, or they try to lead the pack for once in two decades with more advanced hardware than their opponents. But mark my word, if the NX is not more powerful than both the XB1 and PS4, nobody will buy it because there is no reason to, and people already despise Nintendo for pulling out on WiiIU.

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Mraou

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@kazeswen:Lol, 100millon dollar AAA games. You realise the market and game buying attitudes have changed? People are playing low budget games like Rocket League and Minecraft over the big budget games these days on console, and games like Splatoon, a multiplayer focused game, has outsold every PS4 game in Japan. Times have changed and consoles aren't just solely for playing big budget games. And If anything, because the Japanese market has shifted to portable, we're seeing more console-style games on portable these days; Xenoblade, Persona 4, PSO2, to name a few.

Yes, the games you're talking about, the western 3rd party blockbuster games don't translate to a portable; Vita had too many of these and that's why it failed. This has little to do with the appeal of wanting to play Nintendo's range of portable games on a console, though; Nintendo's games typically translate well to both console and handheld, alike (Animal Crossing, Fire Emblem, Pokemon, Mario platformers to name a few).

No one is saying N64 is a bad console, but compared to the PlayStation sales, the lack of using the CD format and using a smaller expensive proprietary cartridge format - which limited developers and was the reason Square jumped ship to PlayStation, you start to see why it was a failure as a system. The GameCube could have been an improvement, but once again they used a proprietary format that only held 1.5GB compared to PS2's dual layered DVD's.

Nintendo will probably sell at a loss, but they won't be selling a $550+ 4K system at a loss. Hell, $550 would be the least they could sell a 4k system in 2016 for, and at a loss as well. There's no guarantee that 3rd parties will flock to a Nintendo system because it's the most powerful. Nintendo have not acted like a market leader in years, and haven't made announcements regarding an improved plan for online and accounts, etc. The likes of EA and Ubisoft have abandoned them as well, and they'll need to regain their trust.

Also, the Wii actually had a lot of 3rd party support; it had support from EA and Ubisoft for its entire lifespan - unlike the Wii U. Guitar Hero actually sold the best on Wii over the other platforms as well. It wasn't about about power, it was about userbase, hence why the Wii got so much 3rd party shovelware. EA kept supporting the Wii with EA Sports titles yet have abandoned Wii U, despite still supporting 360. By contrast, the Wii U is the same power as the 360, yet it stopped even getting 360 ports. It wasn't worth the effort to have a dedicated team porting games to Wii U because it doesn't have a big enough userbase, it's not only because it's not powerful enough.

I think the ideal scenario is they launch a system that's cheaper than the PS4 and is around similar power level. At E3 2016, they go hard with the biggest press conference (a live on stage one, not direct) showcasing a ton of games in development for it with a solid showcase of 3rd party support. They ride NX until PS5, and then release a successor that's the same power level of PS5. Yes, the NX will have a shelf life that's 4 years less than the PS4, but who knows, the PS4 could be a 9 year console, making the NX a 5 year one, which used to be the normal lifespan for consoles.

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Edited By kazeswen

@Mraou: Nobody is gonna buy a NX if its the same power as PS4. Its called double dipping, its what killed Sega. Nobody likes to pay for 2 consoles in the same generation.

Wii was in the same Gen as PS3 and Xbox 360, the WiiU was supposed to be in the same gen as PS4 and XB1, if they release NX as the same gen as PS4 and XB1, it would be saying F you to all the people who bought WiiU, it would essentially be selling 2 consoles in the same generation and sadly in the real world that doesn't work, you lose your entire userbase, only the hardcore Nintendo fans will stay.

I for one would never buy a NX if its a PS4 clone, for one reason, its unethical to pay for 2 consoles in the same gen.

I totally disagree with your strategy, and I hope you are wrong. Because double dipping usually leads to the end of a console manufacturer forever, its an end game move.

My opinion they either jump one generation ahead by releasing a 4K system at a massive loss like the PS3 (Sony lost like 300 per unit on those at launch). Or they release a gimmick system that accmpanies WiiU but does not replace it, i.e an VR Only System (which I think the NX is), or an hybrid Phone/Tablet/Console thing that can be used on the go.

Directly competing with this gen hardware is a suicide move, it essentially says we believe we can sell fans 2 consoles in one gen, and that doesn't play well in the real world, maybe in Nintendo lalaland that works, but you just watch how fast they lose their userbase if they do that. You jump one gen forward or you release a brand new concept that nobody has ever seen like the Wii, you don't double dip ever. As for third party support yes the Wii had third party support on shovelware, because it could not handle direct multiplats, so again, power does matter, each gen should have consoles that match eachother in power for multiplats to work, userbase gives incentive for thirdparty to make games, but for them to actually spend real money to make good games, you need hardware parity, which Nintendo forgot about because they believe in the magical power of FUN, which sadly doesn't translate to hardware parity, unless sprinkling magical FUN dust on things can make The Witcher 3 run and make games like Project Cars work, it doesn't, fun doesn't make multiplats work hardware does.

And yes I do play Indies on consoles, but I don't buy consoles for Indies, when I can play them all for free on PC (wink wink). I buy consoles for games like The Witcher, The Order, MGS, Uncharted, etc, etc, basing a console on Indies alone is suicide.

Finally if you have the ballz to jump a generation forward with a 4k console your initial loss leader may pay off, since you are essentially betting on a 10 year life cycle for your console, since you will be 5 years ahead of your competition anyway. By the time the other consoles reach parity in 5 years, you'll have built up a massive userbase and your cost of production will have dropped low enough to turn a profit on hardware alone. If there is ever a chance to jump a generation to catch Sony and MS off guard its now, but its gonna cost Nintendo all the money they made off of those shoddy Wii systems, but it will keep them in the game and put them ahead in tech for once in 2 decades, and may usher in a 10 year console cycle for Nintendo, not done since NES era. In business you never wanna play catchup, and releasing a parity system now, would be a bad move for Nintendo, could be their last move.

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Edited By Mraou

@kazeswen: Nintendo have bucked the trend of strictly conforming to the generation standard of power since the Wii (which wasn't much more powerful than original XBox). And the Wii U, which was only the same power level as the 360/PS3; Nintendo have yet to make a system that's of the same level of power as XB1/PS4, and that will be the NX.

Yes, NX will technically be the first 'generation 9' console, but these kind of distinctions need to go away. If we can classify Android consoles as consoles nowadays, and Steam boxes as consoles, what generation do these belong to? What even defines a generation these days? It's all becoming a grey area with all these new consoles of varying power level entering the market.

Also, about power; if power was so important, the original XBox would have outsold the PS2. It would of had more exclusives over PS2 because it's power was such a draw and not its user base... Japanese developers would have made games for XBox over PS2, because of the power, despite no one in their country buying it...

Nintendo are in no financial situation to be losing $300 per system; the games industry is their primary business. At least Sony had several other businesses (TV and electronics) to fall back on. There's no precedent for Nintendo being the company that's all about hardware specs; Nintendo's primary strategy is focusing on fun and accessibility to a wide user base, particularly families. A beefed-up 4K machine by Nintendo that sells for ~$600 won't appeal to a broad demographic, it won't appeal to those satisfied with their PS4; it will only appeal to hardcore fans, and once again 3rd parties won't support them, because no one's buying it.

Let's say the NX is $180-200 and around PS4 level. It's inexpensive, so it's more of an impulse buy and more appealing to the family market. I can't say what their so called 'gimmick' will be, but it has to be something compelling to a broad market, like how the Wii remote was. I don't think it'll be VR, that's not appealing to families; the system might still support VR, though. It could just be games... It could just be a much stronger first party line up and the strongest 3rd party support Nintendo have ever had. It could be launching with a Zelda and Mario game and having a strong momentum of games, released month after month after the initial launch that gets people to buy one early on.

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Edited By kazeswen

@Mraou: Bottom line you can't double dip or your done, same thing happened to Sega.

Never sell 2 consoles in one generation, Nintendo already had their WiiU for this gen, if they release another system, its either for the 4K gen or a brand new gimmick.

They can't sell a parity system at this point, it won't fly, because people already bought the WiiU, doesn't matter what the price range is, unless its 50 bucks its not an impulse buy.

No console manufacture has ever survived double dipping the same gen with 2 consoles, Nintendo had their shot with WiiU they blew it because the hardware was too weak to support any multiplats, and fun does not make games like The Witcher 3 and Project Cars work, you needed hardware parity. Even if Nintendo realizes that mistake now, they can't back track cause they already released their 8th gen console, they either release a true 9th gen or stop producing consoles and go make Mario games for a living.

Let me repeat you CANNOT release 2 8th gen consoles in a roll, and get away with it. Nintendo should have release WiiU with the same power as PS4 if they wanted multiplats but they didn't because they are cheap, now they are suffering for it. Suck it up and make a true 9th gen or exit the console business. 300 bucks is a pittance compared to how much Nintendo made by releasing a modified GameCube for a 7th gen console, they made money in buckets off the Wii, so its time to spit that back out.

Again, power equals multiplats, stop dodging around the truth. If the WiiU could run Project Cars and The Witcher 3, then there would be no disucssion of an NX, Nintendo would have third party support right now and all the hardcores and noncores fans would be happy with a WiiU, but they aren't cause WiiU is a last gen console disguised as current gen one, and now Nintendo wants to release a current gen console disguised as a 9th gen one??? I don't think so, Nintendo needs to stop trying to cheat customers by peddling last gen tech.

They can go 4K or go home, I for one would never buy another Nintendo console if they continue their shoddy business practices, and I owned almost all their previous consoles.

You must be a Nintendo employee because how anyone can justify Nintendo trying to sell 2 consoles in the same gen is beyond me. Do you not realize that Nintendo is fucking over all their customers buy ditching the WiiU mid generation because they were too cheap to make it powerful enough to compete, and to even think about releasing another console to bring hardware to parity mid-gen is a joke.

Imagine if Sony released a PS3 with a Tablet controller in 2013, then after selling 10million of them, they decided to release the PS4, cause the tablet gimmick wasn't working, thats exactly what Nintendo is doing. They are saying that they can break one gaming generation down into two life cycles with two consoles running 3 years each. How you can support that is beyond me??? Which i why I'm almost certain the NX is a not a traditional console, because Nintendo has to be smarter than you when it comes to business, they know they can't double dip. Its a VR system or a Tablet with a built in controller that can also work with your TV.

And in what country a 200 dollar purchase is considered an impulse buy is beyond me, unless you live in Dubai or something. I've never felt the urge to spend 200 on impulse in my life, 50 maybe, 100 tops, but 2bills warrants some thought.

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@kazeswen: No one's double dipping with a Nintendo console, though. Wii U wasn't the same power level of XB1/PS4 (or remotely near to them), so if the NX is close to them then you're getting a console from Nintendo, that in terms of power, they've never released before, so it's not double dipping. And If double dipping beween platforms was such a concern, why did PS3 and 360 sell so equally for most of their lifespans? Surely people would have been content with just one system? No, because it's about the exclusives and different experiences of owning more than one system, of which Nintendo excels at because they're such a different entitiy to MS and Sony.

The lines of console generations are so blurred at this point, but regardless NX will still be defined as 9th gen not 8th, as you keep claiming. Let's settle this properly, if NX is listed as on Wikipedia as 8th gen and not 9th gen, then you win that point, alright?

I'm not disagreeing that Wii U is not powerful to run multiplats, but if it had a bigger userbase than PS4 at this point, it would definitely still be supported even if it was just through downgraded ports or shovelware, much like how the Wii was. If it had a massive userbase, it would be like developers were leaving money on the table if they didn't support it. The stigma is that the 10 million that have bought Wii U are just ardent Nintendo fans who won't buy 3rd party games. There are even some shocking eShop statistics, which show as low as as a 7% female buying demographic; it really hasn't permeated a broad demographic.

"Unless its 50 bucks its not an impulse buy." No powerful home console's going to launch that cheap, so mute point. I've seen many speculation threads for NX that it should even be as low as $150, which I don't think is even possible. It depends what price point the XB1/PS4 is at by November, next year; the NX needs to ideally be at minimum either $50 cheaper or $50 more than those, otherwise it's suicide.

Ultimately we can argue about power, but it really is about the software. When the Wii U launched, it basically had nothing to play on it till Lego City Undercover. They had a whole year ahead of PS4 in 2013 and there just wasn't enough strong releases to justify it. Nintendo can't afford to make that mistake again. The game releases need to be copious this time, early on. Also, they themselves said it took them a long time to adapt to the change to developing HD games, so how do you expect them to suddenly jump to 4K development and release titles in timely fashion? You're not thinking logically about the whole situation, you're just throwing out rampant, unrealistic demands that don't translate to any actual business sense.

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Edited By kazeswen

@Mraou: I think I'm the only person thinking logically here, where as you are thinking in terms of what a fan would think.

First of all, PS3 and XB360 were made by two different companies, thats not double dipping, its called competition, been that way since the dawn of gaming. If PS3 were released for 3 years, then replaced by a PS3.5 for another 3 years, Sony would be out of the console race today. Its called brand loyalty, by double dipping you diminish brand loyalty and hence lose userbase, because what you are saying to fans is that they're investment is only worth half a console's life cycle, and that doesn't work in the real world, maybe in your fantasy world you can do this, but human beings are creatures of both emotions, and logic. It is both unethical and illogical for people to support a console knowing that it will last only half a life cycle, which is what Nintendo is doing, regardless if NX is more powerful than WiiU, it is still cutting 8th generation into two different hardware cycles, essentially Nintndo is splitting the 8th gen console life span into two cycles, one for WiiU, and another for NX. This is brand suicide, no console manufacturer in the history of gaming has ever gotten away with selling two consoles in the same console generation, Sega found this out the hardway.

Which brings me to my point, Nintendo can either continue to support WiiU as their official 8th gen console and create a supplementary console ie VR or Hybrid Handheld to boost their bottom line, or they can skip prematurely to 9th Gen with a brand new home console. They cannot however release 2 8th gen consoles back to back, nobody will support that aside from hardcore fans. because by doing so you diminish brand loyalty be making customers feel cheated.

So really Nintendo has only two logical moves, continue to support WiiU and create a gimmick console as a supplement or stop supporting WiiU and jump to 9th Gen which would require a 4K upgrade.

There is no third alternative, which is your suggestion. Nintendo cannot make a parity console to PS4 and XB1 now, or they risk losing all brand loyalty, again you CANNOT double dip.

Do you honestly think anyone other than hardcore Nintendo fans would buy a NX after having only played the WiiU for 3 years? They will feel betrayed and ditch the Nintendo brand period, the only way to entice buyers is by doing something new .ie a gimmick like VR or a quantum leap like 4K.

Nobody was suggesting Nintendo should sell the system for 50 bucks, that was to point out how rediculous your notion 200 dollars being an impulse buy was. The NX price is irrelevent once Nintendo tarnishes their brand loyalty. Trying to play catch up to PS4 and XB1 now is suicide, no company ever succeeded by playing catch up, or tarnishing their brand loyalty. I think your thought process is very robotic, you're completely neglecting the human factor in the equation.

And please stop saying that console gens are blurred, there is nothing blurry about it. Wii PS3 XB360 was gen 7, PS4 XB1 WIIU was gen 8, the only thing blurry is that Nintendo is trying to prematurely ditch gen 8 and skip to gen 9 cause their gen 8 console was garbage, but instead of giving us a true gen 9 console, they are trying to give you parity console to gen 8, otherwise known as double dipping, they wanna sell you two consoles in gen 8. End of story.

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Mraou

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@kazeswen: "where as you are thinking in terms of what a fan would think."

You've lost this debate then, with that sentence alone.

If I were thinking like a hardcore fan, I would want what you want, I'd want Nintendo to produce a 4K beast of a machine that would crush the PS4...

...This would also be fantasy land, where the system costs under $300 and 3rd party developers support it in droves! And where power has always been the sole reason for a consoles success! ...Right?

Wrong. Fact of the matter is, I want what's best for the company, profits-wise and 3rd party support wise. You basically want a them to release a $550+ 4K system - hell, it would likely be $650+ if they wanted every game to run at 4K - and you magically expect it to sell well and 3rd parties to support it in droves, with no past precedent to base your opinion on, no logic behind your reasoning and no proof that such a plan will succeed. Anyone with half a brain and has followed the industry long enough, knows your idea is batshit insane and guaranteed to fail.

Now, whether people agree with your definition of 'double dipping' is subjective, but you yourself also defined your own definition as 'competition' as well, which kind of contradicts your argument a bit if people see it that way as well. At the end of the day, people don't compare Nintendo with Sony/MS, but as their own entity that does its own thing. And if the market had such a problem with double dipping with Nintendo they would have broadly refused the multiple 3DS and DS iterations and such. People don't mind buying multiple 3DS's though, because they're relatively cheap, which brings me to my argument that the NX should also be cheap so people don't feel so bad about them leaving the Wii U behind. Your 4K console idea, which would be expensive, would only piss people off, because it's an expensive upgrade and people would be more hesitant to jump on to that.

At least you've accepted the fact NX will be Gen 9, whether you define it as 'skipping ahead' or not.

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@Mraou: Business is dictated by human emotions, not just what's best for business, your kind of thinking got Sega out of the console business.

Business 101, before you make any decision you think about the human aspect of your decision. You seem to think like a robot which is good if you are selling to robots.

First let me clarify what double dipping means, when the SAME company sells 2 Consoles in the SAME gen, its called double dipping, NOT when TWO DIFFERENT companies selling 2 DIFFERENT Consoles, there is no contradiction here. Releasing two consoles in one life span kills brand loyalty and ends companies as Sega found out the hard way, history is always destined to repeat itself. I never said I wanted a 4k console, I said that its the second logical move with the first being making a supplementary console that's gimmick oriented like a hybrid handheld or a VR console, both of which would be cheap and would not be seen as double dipping since they are supplementary like the New 3DS with better 3D, and the various DS builds which were seen as supplementary and not a replacement of the DS line.

You suggest that it cannot be 4k or a gimmick console, which I myself and the rest if the game industry disagrees with, just look at any game site, most of them agree that NX is NOT a simple home console but a special gimmick that Nintendo will not disclose with possible handheld capacities. You seem to disagree with this, and for some odd reason believe that Nintendo is beyond rules, and ethical business practice and that somehow they are magical and are special and can get away with anything.

Sorry to burst your bubble but Nintendo is like any other company once they lose their core userbase they are done. Sega also believed that they were special when they were defeated in the console wars, the same will happen to Nintendo if they follow your advice.

Nintendo didn't realize this, but the Wii although popular had eroded all of Nintendo Hardcore userbase, because the Wii was not powerful enough for multiplats, all the hardcore gamers that once trusted the Nintendo brand left the brand for Sony or MS. That was the main reason why WiiU sold poorly. Nobody at Nintendo realizes this, but Nintendo no longer has a hardcore fanbase, which means they need to rely 100% on their non traditional userbase, so it makes much more sense to make NX an gimmick driven console for casual fans.

I say again making a parity console mid-generation is a suicide move, because Nintendo has no hardcore gamer fanbase, and ditching WiiU now would break off any loyal fans they have left. And 9th gen console should come with ninth gen hardware not 8th gen hardware as you suggest.

Please don't declare that you've won a debate until you've actually won.

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Edited By Mraou

@kazeswen: You have lost the debate, though. No trusted person in the games industry is saying Nintendo should release a 4K console.

Objectively, you're in a vocal minority with that opinion, so by democratic principles you've lost. You can argue till your blue in the face, but it won't change the fact: You have an opinion that's in the minority...

Go listen to a game website podcast or read articles by people actually involved the industry; they're all mostly speculating NX will be close to PS4/XB1 in terms of power, because that makes the most logical sense and stays in line with Nintendo's business practise.

Point to me where actual trusted people in the industry are saying Nintendo will release a 4K system and I'll point to you on podcasts and in articles where the speculation that NX is close to PS4/XB1. I'll give you one now: listen to the 43 minute mark of this weeks GT Time on GameTrailers.

And I did not say the console won't have a gimmick, I just don't know what it could possibly be at this point. One thing we keep hearing is, Nintendo are making their own OS. Ostensibly what this could mean is that games from now on could be backward compatible across every Nintendo system. There's even speculation the system won't have a disc drive... While this sounds crazy and unlikely, it does add to the idea that they're making download-only Android-like platforms from here on out. I can't give an answer whether that's guaranteed to immediately succeed or not, but it sounds like a smart decision in the long term.

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@Mraou: It may be discless because handheld systems do not do well with spinning media, as most industry folks predict the system will be some hybrid handheld device that loads games via nand based storage ie SD cards.

Again, NX will not be a traditional console to compete with PS4, XB1 or WiiU, it will be a supplementary console designed to stabllize Nintendo's poor bottomline due to Wii U's poor sales.

As for it being 4K, I never said that any industry insider said it will be 4K, in fact knowing how cheap Nintendo is, I'm almost certain it will not be 4K. I simply suggested 4K due to the fact that if it were as you say a 9th gen console, it should be future proof, and 4K is only way to future proof a 9th gen console. But from the very beginning I've said that I think it will be a gimmick driven system either VR or Hybrid Handheld device, and it will not be seen as double dipping since it does not directly compete with WiiU or any current 8th gen device. It'll be a supplementary SKU designed to buy Nintendo some time until 9th gen comes around.

Where we differ in opinion is that you think the NX is a main home console designed to be Nintendo's 9th gen system. I feel that Nintendo is simply creating a new SKU because their current console is selling like crap.

I said from the beginning that cutting WiiU off mid generation and starting brand new is not a smart business move, Nintendo knows this. NX is a gimmick device that directly competes with no one like the Virtua Boy, it will stand on its own without being part of a any generation, thats the only way I can see this happening. Nintendo will most likely release their official 9th gen console around the same time as when the PS5 comes out.

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Mraou

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@kazeswen: A lot, if not most of your opinions are based on subjectivity.

You say NX won't be a 9th gen console, whereas I'm willing to bet Wikipedia lists NX as a 9'th gen console, thus it goes down in history as being a 9'th gen console, whether you like it or not.

Though, I am right about console generations being blurred. Daniel Bloodworth even backed my statement up a little in the GT podcast. Nintendo blurs generations, because they do their own thing and don't strictly follow what Sony/MS do when it comes to hardware.

You say 4K is what's best for them, whereas most trusted people in the industry think the logical thing is release something around PS4/XB1 in terms of power. If 4K really was what's best, there'd be a lot more industry people saying it as well, but no, they're not. Again, you have the minority opinion with that 4K stuff, thus lose this debate.

Also, when you say: "I feel that Nintendo is simply creating a new SKU because their current console is selling like crap" ...you realise you're basically admitting the NX will replace Wii U?

The general consensus is that Wii U is not going to be supported much once NX is out.

Looking at Wii U's release calendar and what they showed at E3 this year, it was clear there isn't much software in development for the Wii U. Again, referencing the GT podcast, they even elude to Zelda being an NX launch game, basically doing what they did with Twilight Princess on the Wii.

Nintendo have used the term '3rd pillar' before in reference to the GBA and DS co-existing with each other, and that didn't last for long.

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Edited By kazeswen

@Mraou: News flash all opinions are subjective buddy, including yours and analysts.

Until the NX is released everyone has an opinion and thats just that an opinion, nothing more nothing less.

Whether consoles gens are blurred is your opinions, whether 4K is 9th gen is your opinion, whether NX is supplementary gimmick consoles or a main home consoles is your opinion.

Difference between you and me is you delude yourself in thinking that your opinion is fact, to the point where you declare victory on a debate of OPINIONS.

You yourself asked that Nintendo should make NX future proof, yet you reject the idea of the only thing that would make it future proof 4K, you claim that Nintendo blurrs generation lines when they've been following generation lines since day one, up until now when they've released the worst console of their company's history. You claim that Nintendo is not double dipping, yet you suggest that they should release 2 home consoles in the same consoles generation. You claim that NX is a 9th gen consoles, yet you insist that it should have 8th gen specs.

Do I sense some hypocrosy in your opinions? And whats even more rediculous is you claim to win in a debate of opinions. When nobody on this planet knows what Nintendo NX is, you claim to know because your opinions are facts. See the hypocrosy.

I've stated my opinion, you've stated yours end of discussion. If NX is the same as PS4, I'm not getting one, unless it doubles as a handheld or cooks my dinner for me. The only reason I'd buy another NIntendo console is if its got an amazing gimmick like a transparent display or some sht or its overpowered like in 4K. I can't condone a company who insists on selling old last gen tech every generation. For 7th gen Nintendo sold 6th gen hardware, and for 8th gen they sold 7th gen hardware, and if they try the same sht again, I'm done with them. Such unethical business practices makes me sick. Thats it, and again everything I say is just an opinion not fact, like you seem to think.

P.S You seem vary adversed on a $600 console. Just so you know the PS3 retailed at $600 at launch, and became the second highest selling console of 8th gen, it single handedly defeated Toshiba's HD DVD standard and made Sony's BluRay Standard the defacto standard of all current gen media storage, giving Sony an endless revenue stream on BluRay media royalty fees forever. Thats a fact.

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Mraou

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@kazeswen:Well, your "opinion" about NX not being 9'th gen will be proven objectively incorrect if Wikipedia lists it as 9'th gen. Your other opinion is that Nintendo should release a 4K system, that no trusted person in the industry shares. If we held this debate with a vote asking: 'Should Nintendo release an expensive hardcore-gamer-only 4K system?', I'm pretty sure your opinion would still be in the minority.

Yes, I do think NX should be future proof, but not through 4K, but by basing the system on a universal OS (akin to Android) that makes it so that all Nintendo games will be backwards compatible with it. If the NX only has a 5 year life span till PS5 comes out, at least you'd know the games will be backwards compatible with the next system. Also, lower spec games for the systems after the NX could run on it too, further adding to the fact it's 'future proof'. Also, I'm hoping they use more PC-like components, like an x86 based CPU, etc this time.

And again, NX will technically be a 9'th gen console from Nintendo, whether it's released mid 8'th gen console cycle or not. It's not my opinion, it's what I'm sure Wikipedia will list it as. If Wikipedia chooses to change its policy regarding generations and list NX as 8'th gen, then fine, but I don't see that happening - Nintendo would probably intervene and ask them to list it as 9th gen.

My basis for saying it's 9'th gen is that, from what I know, NX is a home console successor to the Wii U, and Nintendo consoles have always factored in the debate of console generations. The Wii U is listed as 8'th gen, so regardless of the premature release of the NX - it's still their next console successor, so it is 9'th.

And yes, I still think console generations are blurred at this point and the distinctions need to go away. The reason I'm arguing with you over it is because you don't seem to understand that if a console gets listed on Wikipedia under a certain generation, then it IS of that generation. You can't arbitrarily argue that 'because the hardware is weak, it's not of the generation it's listed as'.

"you suggest that they should release 2 home consoles in the same consoles generation. You claim that NX is a 9th gen consoles, yet you insist that it should have 8th gen specs. Do I sense some hypocrosy in your opinions?"

...Uh, what? Do you even know what hypocrisy means? Probably not, since you couldn't spell it. As you just said, Nintendo have set a precedent for not following the generation trend: The Wii had the same power level of the original XBox yet was listed as generation 7 (same as the PS3/XB360); the Wii U the same as XB360 yet listed as generation 8 (same as PS4/XBOne) - what on earth does this have to do with me having a hypocritical opinion? Fail.

PS3 became the 2nd highest selling after multiple price drops and good 3rd party support and exclusives. They went from about 5 mil sold to 10 mil after the first $100 price cut (to $500) and then sales continued to climb shortly later when a $400 40GB model was released.

The difference between Sony and Nintendo is, Sony gets major 3rd party support and Nintendo doesn't. Even when PS3 was going through its worst times, it was well supported from 3rd parties. Your dumb logic that Nintendo should put out an expensive 4K machine has no basis in past precedent, because there is no proof that Nintendo will even get half the 3rd party support Sony gets. There's no guarantee an expensive 4K machine will be successful for Nintendo and these two situations can't be compared.

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@Mraou: Price drops come because consoles get cheaper to make over time, Sony's PS3 was powerful and expensive as all things that are powerful are, but as time passes it becomes cheaper to make, hence price drops. A 4K console may be 600 at launch but will quickly drop over time, I have 49" 4K LG TV, it cost me under a grand. Same TV was close to 2 grand a half a year ago its called COGs, COGs drop over time with new tech.

Your suggestion for future proofing is not future proofing because the NX will still be outdated when 9th gen consoles come out in 4-5 years, nobody cares if the games are BC. Future proofing is by making the system future proof not its software. And why would I wanna play 1080p games from NX when I can play PS5 at 4K, so I don't see how your future proofing is logical. The only way to truly future proof NX is by making it 4K, not making it BC. BC doesn't change the fact that the NX will be outdated in 4 years when real gen 9 consoles come out.

Console gens have nothing to do with its power, correct, Wii was gen 7, Wii U was gen 8, gens are set by the cycle of a console. So, by releasing Nintendo's so called 9 gen console now, they are in fact releasing 2 gen 8 consoles. Since console gens have little to do with power, and everything to do with when its release, NX is by your logic gen 8, because it is in the same time line as PS4 and XB1. Glad you proved my point. Power have nothing to do with gens, but when the system was released sets its gen, hence Sega CD, Sega 32X, and Sega Genesis all belonged in the same gen according to Wiki because they were all released in that console cycle. So, by this logic NX is gen 8, regardless of power.

Sony PS3 had support due to it being powerful enough to handle all the gen 7 games, just like how XB1 has third part support even though it numbers are almost equal to Wii U. Its not all about userbase.

As for 4K being successful of course there is no guarantee there is no guarantee of anything in life, no guarantee if make a parity console it'll succeed as precedence has been set that releasing 2 consoles in one gen leads to poor sales, regardless as see by Sega. But, its been proven that by making a subpar system like Wii U Nintendo fails, so at least there is precedence that whatever they've done before is wrong. So maybe its time to try something without precedence, cause there old strategy seems to be useless.

Thanks for spotting out my hypocrisy typo, congrats, but lets stop being childish and get to the real debate at hand.

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Mraou

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Edited By Mraou

@kazeswen: Of course price drops happen, but do you realise how much money Sony had to lose initially to get to the point they were profitable? Nintendo can't afford to risk that same strategy; they don't have the same solid 3rd party support Sony has to keep them afloat. And a price drop won't happen immediately, it will take a full year at least for the first one, at that point, they probably won't have even sold as many units as the Wii U did in its first year.

Whether the system is outdated by your high standards or not, doesn't take away from the fact that if you can still play games on it when its successor is released, you still have a console that has software support and doesn't need to be stored away immediately. If you think of Nintendo consoles from here on like PC's, then for example, your PC build from 2009 may be old, but it can still run a game that's compatible with DX10 that's released today.

Once again, you're arguing with me about generations and not factoring in what Wikipedia will say. How many times must I repeat that if Wikipedia lists NX as gen 9, then that's what it is. It won't be my opinion anymore, it will be a fact that you have to deal with. I don't blame you for being confused, look on YouTube and on forums, there is a debate about which gen NX will belong to. I will just let Wikipedia and Nintendo themselves be the final decider of it.

You can't compare Wii U's and XBone's user base as the same. You have to analyse the buying trends and the core demographics that differentiate them and why 3rd parties choose MS over Nintendo for 3rd party multiplats, in particular in the west.

Remember that XBox was once considered the home of Call of Duty and how XBox has 'hardcore' mature titles like Halo, Crackdown, Tomb Raider, etc, while Nintendo doesn't. Also, WRPG's like Fallout and Skyrim sold the best on XB360. The mentality is that Nintendo appeals to young, family and hardcore 27+ Nintendo fanboys from the NES era whereas MS mostly appeal to the 18-35 male demographic, that loves western games, wrpg's, shooters and sports games.

Naturally western 3rd parties are going to choose MS over Nintendo, regardless if Wii U has sold similarly to XBOne, because they know the XBox brand appeals to the demographic that their games appeal to. Now in the case of the Wii, it got games like Call of Duty, which actually did very well on that system (highest at 2.2 mil sold; lowest at 800k sold). Would the Wii version even had been remotely as successful as it was if it didn't have that massive userbase? I don't think so, certainly wasn't the case for the Wii U version of CoD (sold 300k and 200k, respectfully).

The idea of Nintendo making an OS that will serve as the basis for ALL future systems would be unprecedented and would solve the problem of them splitting their internal developers between portable and home console development - and have them all working under one umbrella, making games for the Nintendo OS. That to me, is good start and a sign of them future proofing their systems from now on.

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@Mraou: None of what you say changes the fact that NX will be outdated in just 4 years. Yes you can play new games on your old PC, because PC games do not abide by hardware generations. Meaning you can run The Witcher 3 on an older PC with downscaled graphics. But NX if its not 4K it'll become completely outdated in 4 years when PS5 comes out, because they will not release 9th gen console games on the NX if it cannot do 4K like the other consoles. So your point is moot.

Why would I spend my hard earned money on a console that will only have a 4 year life span? If the NX is not 4k, I know it'll be outdated in 4 years, so why would anyone invest in console knowing it'll only last 4 years, considering they've already bought the WIi U and have only 3 years to show for that. Thats the problem when you divide one gen into 2 consoles, you end up cutting each consoles life span down by half. So instead of buying one console to play all of Nintendos games for this gen, people are expected to buy 2. Who in their right mind would do this?

Keep in mind this is exactly what killed Sega, because Sega was losing in every console war back then they were forced to release multiple systems like Sega CD, 32X, and later they were the first to ditch each console early like Saturn, and DreamCast, by skipping gens they shortened the life span of all their consoles. And eventually nobody trusted Sega, knowing that investing in a Sega console mean't a shorter console life span than the competition, and slowly with each gen, Sega lost more userbase, until they had nobody but the most hardcore Sega fan, and that was it they were finished. History is destined to repeat itself, Nintendo is going down Sega's route and will suffer the same fate as Sega if they don't correct themselves.

And as for comparing userbase, the reason why Wii U has no third party support is cause they have no hardcore gamers base, they lost it all during the Wii era by burning all the hardcore gamers. Nintendo has only themselves to blame by making infierior hardware in the Wii. Even if Nintendo had the hardcore gamers on the Wii U, they still don't have the horse power to even get the same games PS4 and XB1 have, so power is also a contributing factor.

Honestly nobody gives a shit if Nintendo makes an OS that runs everything they make. Because if the hardware is inferior, it'll sill be outdated in 4 years. So the choice is up to Nintendo now. they are sitting on a 10 billion dollar reserve so they can afford to take a loss leader if they wanted to. If Sony could afford to lose 300 per PS3 old, Nintendo can the do the same with 10 BILLION dollars in the bank, call it payback for all those Wiis they sold last gen.The Wii was basically a GameCube with a remote, so they basically sold GameCubes twice, so maybe karma is finally hitting back. You can pretty much already play every Nintendo game on every current Nintendo console, thats what Wiiware and VC is, expect to NX to have VC for all the 3DS and Wii U catalogue, but honestly nobody cares.

Here's my logic:

2 systems to choose from.

1 NX, you get to play the same sht as PS4 and XB1, it'll be oudated in 4 years. I already have PS4 and a Wii U, so why would I buy this?

2 NX4K, you get to play the newest most advanced gaming console in 4K today, Mario4k, DonkeyKong4k, Zelda4k, it'll be around for 10 years and it has graphics that nobody can match. I already have PS4, and a Wii U, but I have no 4k console and the idea of investing in a 10 year console. Great.

I can't see any reason why anyone would get a NX if they have PS4 and Wii U, sorry but investing money in a 4 year console, doesn't fly.

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@kazeswen "because they will not release 9th gen console games on the NX if it cannot do 4K like the other consoles."

And how do you know that? What's stopping Nintendo from releasing downscaled 1080p NX ports if the game in question is not high-spec intensive? What's stopping indies from releasing downscaled indie game ports, which don't require major hardware specs for the NX? If the games of NX and 'NX2' are easily backwards compatible and just need to be rendered at lower resolution and a few other minor changes for them to run on NX, then there's not a whole lot stopping them from doing so. Apple and Android are iterating their products all the time, year over year, and you can still run less taxing games on their older devices, this is the same concept.

Once again, arguing over generations; you're already likely to lose this debate when Wikipedia lists NX as 9'th gen, yet you keep beating a dead horse. It's only your subjective argument that states NX is 8'th gen; the way I and everyone else see it, is that Nintendo are prematurely releasing a 9th gen console years early before Sony and Microsoft. And you got so many facts wrong about Sega, but Nintendo are in no where near the same situation as Sega; Nintendo still have billions in the bank and have a successful console in the form of the 3DS (50+ million sold, over 200 million software sold) and they have new revenue in the form of Amiibo and the like.

That paragraph about the Wii U and power has already been explained. The Wii, which was much less powerful than PS3/360, still had continued 3rd party support from the likes of EA, Ubi and Activision, unlike the Wii U which has been nigh completely dropped at this point, save for a few franchises. Activision put out CoD games until 2012 on the Wii, then moved to the Wii U and saw the games sell only 300k and 200k, respectively, so they logically decided to stop supporting the Wii U after that. Why is PS3 and 360 still getting Black Ops 3 this year, while Wii U isn't? The Wii U clearly has the power to run a 360 port, so why isn't it getting one? Oh that's right, it IS about user base. And you once again lose another debate right there.

As for your 2 scenarios, I'll counter the first one with a low price and that the system has at minimum a 5 year lifespan till PS5. If the price is cheap enough, and has the guarantee it will still be able to play 'NX2' games at a lower resolution and spec then there's a sense of future proofing right there. What's more, is if the system is also backwards compatible with their future handheld systems, so it can natively run their next portable's games and the one's after that on it.

:

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@Mraou: Oh please, you and I both know that no third party will support the NX when 4K becomes the norm with PS5 and XB2.

Stop lying to yourself thinking that games will still be released for the NX when 9th gen rolls around, it'll be the exact same problem Nintendo is having now. None of the 4K PS5 and XB2 games will run on NX, just like how The Witcher 3 and Project Cars don't run on Wii U, so again, Nintendo will drop another console prematurely and again Nintendo will find themselves playing catch-up by releasing their 4K 10th gen console early to compete with PS5 and XB2.

So, your scenario has Nintendo forever playing catch-up always one step behind its competition, always being forced to release their next console early, and always having a shorter console life span than its competition. How the hell that a good plan, always be behind the competition, always play catch up by releasing your next gen console with the same specs as your competition's last gen console.

By the time the PS5 comes out, Nintendo will be forced again, to release their 10th gen console early to catch up to 4K, then again, it'll cut the NX life span short to make way for NX4K. Why do all that when you can release NX4K now and have a full 8-10 year life span for NX?

Your plan was the same plan Sega had, they released the Sega CD in anticipation for CD gaming early, then released the 32X their first 32bit console early, then they released another 32bit console Saturn, because the first 32bit console was rubbish (sounds familiar) 1 year early, then they released the Sega Dreamcast 2-3 years early, with each early console release, they cut short the life cycle of their previous gen and in the end, they were left with no fans and no money.

Looks like what you would like Nintendo to do.

Stop kidding yourself ain't no NX2 or NX4K games gonna be released on NX1 aside from some shitty Indies games, so basically you're paying for half a console generation, sorry but I'd rather save my money. Nintendo can con someone else.

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Edited By Mraou

@kazeswen: Here's the reality of your 4K console idea...

Nintendo release the '4K NX'; it's 2 times more powerful than PS4, costs $650+, takes 4 years to finally come down to a profitable price... It has also sold like shit in that entire time. Publishers 'love its power' but are 'hesitant' to put games on it, because it has failed to reach the same user base as the Wii U in the same period of time, and Nintendo's demographic has traditionally been different than Sony or MS', so there's no justification having a team make a 4K port with higher res textures, etc. A year after that, Sony launches PS5 at $50 more; it's 2x times more powerful than the 4K NX. 4K NX goes down as Nintendo's biggest financial flop.

Also, you've been trying to derail the debate in to fanboy wars, whereas I'm being realistic and am trying to debate what's best, business-wise, for Nintendo. We both know NX is most likely not going to outsell PS4; we know what the 3rd party situation is with Nintendo; we know Nintendo's prior mistakes. There's no point bringing those up in a debate where we speculate on what's best for them, going forward. My point has always been to refute your ridiculous 4K console idea, and that is all. You have an opinion in the minority, so by debate standards, you've already lost.

"Oh please, you and I both know that no third party will support the NX when 4K becomes the norm with PS5 and XB2."

Do we? Do we even know everything Nintendo is doing to be so sure of that? No, so nothing is set in stone yet.

"Nintendo will find themselves playing catch-up by releasing their 4K 10th gen console early to compete with PS5 and XB2."

This has already been established; I say NX is a 5 year console at minimum until PS5, at which point they release their 10'th gen console.

"So, your scenario has Nintendo forever playing catch-up always one step behind its competition, always being forced to release their next console early, and always having a shorter console life span than its competition."

How would they forever be playing catch-up, if NX2 is released at the same time of PS5 and is equal to it in power?

This is why I said generations are blurred and need to go away. The distinction doesn't mean a whole lot anymore, only crotchety people like you who have an obsession with the console generations seriously care. Most people don't; if you ask the average gamer or person at GameStop: 'what console generation are we on?' I'm sure most wouldn't even know. Once again, I'll respond with: 'the generation is defined by what Wikipedia says it is' and you will just have to deal with it.

If Nintendo releases a console around the same time as Sony/MS that is on par with them - they may technically belong to different generations, but they're technically, in terms of specs, not 'playing catch up' with them.

Let's review:

You say Nintendo should release an expensive 4K console, that's likely to not sell well in its first couple of years, because it's too expensive. You claim it will have a 10 year lifespan, despite that PS5/'XB2' will probably be more powerful than it when they launch sometime 5 years later - so even then, when those consoles are released, the 4K NX will still be outdated and they'll still have to release another console to compete with those 2. Your whole 4K future proof console idea goes out the window, in the likelihood of that scenario.

I don't see how your scenario even fixes the problem. It just leaves Nintendo with a big financial hole in their pocket and a system that will inevitably be less powerful than PS5/'XB2'.

Whereas, I say Nintendo release a console that's close to or as powerful as PS4/XBOne, and is very cheap - so people don't feel bad about upgrading from Wii U to NX. It is based on the 'Nintendo OS' meaning portable games and future console generation games will be backwards compatible with it, thus being 'future proof'. And I say it does have a 'gimmick', I just have no idea what that could be, maybe something like a dual splittable motion controller (akin to Oculus Rift's controller), something cheaper to manufacture than the Wii U GamePad this time.

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Edited By kazeswen

@Mraou: Look we can argue until we're blue the face, but you'll never convince me of your point of view, because you're suggesting Nintendo do exactly what Sega did when they were losing the console wars. Which I pointed out in exact details, you had no answer to my Sega analogy, because you know I'm right.

HISTORY always repeats itself, ALWAYS. Your strategy has Nintendo following Sega's path and will force them to exit the console business after the NX.

NO modern console company has ever survived double dipping with 2 consoles in the span of one generation, because people don't like to pay for 2 consoles in one generation. They feel ripped off, so unless Nintendo makes people feel like they are buying a completely different console with a massive spec upgrade, Nintendo will be finsihed after NX.

This is not my opinion, its FACT, look at Sega when they skipped generations and released 2 32bit consoles (32x and Saturn), then Dreamcast (skipped ahead by 3 years because Saturn was doing poorly). They went out of the console business.

Nintendo is going down Sega's route, I outlined it in fine detail, you are ignoring facts and history.

A 4K NX is the only way in my opinion Nintendo wll be able to survive, its essentially combining gen 8 and gen 9 into one cycle, so they can skip gen 9 and not release anything againts PS5 and XB2, because by then they should have a massive userbase and lets face it 4K is 4K, even if PS5 is more powerful, Nintendo will still have the userbase to generate third party support.

Basically to end the argument.

You suggest Nintendo release 8th gen spec hardware for their 9th gen console, then release 9th gen spec hardware for their 10th gen hardware, and be forever one gen behind its competition.

I suggest they release 9th gen hardware now for their 9th gen console, and skip releasing another console for another 10 years, this will put Nintendo back in the game in terms of competition, and win back loyal fans. I do not suggest Nintendo to release another console in 5 years, because they've already burned a lot of fans with Wii U's 3 year life span, they cannot afford to burn any more fans by prematurely ditching their 9th gen console as well.

Basically Nintendo needs to make an console that has the same life span as their competition or longer, because they already cut short their 8th gen life span. This is the main reason why I think 4K is the ONLY logical move for them.

I for one cannot justify buying a NX knowing it'll only last for 5 years, when the competition all have 7-8 year life spans. I feel that all gamers feel the same way, especially after Wii U. So, really 4K is not just because I want to play 4K games, I do, but it's for Nintendo to make up for cutting a console's life spans short. Better you cut Wii U's life short now, but don't cut the NX's life short as well, thats suicide. Its exactly what Sega did, they released Sega Saturn back to back with 32x and 1 year early cause they were losing, then they released Dreamcast early again by 2-3 years, cause they were losing, but by then the fans said enough, we don't support you anymore if you don't support your hardware, and that was it for Sega, Dreamcast was great hardware but they didn't have Brand loyalty anymore.

All your argument is based on numbers, there is no heart in your argument, you forget brand loyalty and fans are what make a gaming console, not accounting. I assure you 100% if they follow your path they will exit the console business after NX.

Now if they have a super amazing gimmick, like Hybrid Handheld, or see through display or holograms or something insane, they just might survive without 4k, but I'm not holding my breath on that. Seems like Nintendo's run out of gimmicks.

P.S You almost sound like the suits that work at Nintendo, listen to yourself : "lets make a cheap console that's close to the power of our competition and hope for the best". That kinda thinking is what got them into this mess. And what's this about "lets make the NX as cheap as possible so that people don't feel bad about ditching the Wii U". LOL What kinda logic is that, people are pissed about the Wii U regardless, cheap is what got them the lemon they are stuck with, so the plan is go cheaper! How about make a great console thats more powerful than the competition and make sure that the Wii U never happens again. I have a feeling they had the exact same plan with Wii U as you do now "lets make a cheap console thats close to the power of our competition. FAIL." So the plan now is lets make "let's make another cheap console thats close the power of our competition DOUBLE FAIL"

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Mraou

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@kazeswen:Your Sega analogy is a tangent that doesn't compare to the current situation of Nintendo right now; Nintendo aren't in the same situation as Sega, because 1. they have too much money in the bank and 2. they actually have successful forms of revenue and a very successful system in the form of the 3DS. 3DS is basically Nintendo's top money maker right now, with 50+ million units sold and over 200 million+ software units sold. Sega had nothing like that to fall back on by the time it had to pull out of the console business.

By the time Sega released the Dreamcast they were already in deep financial woes and the Dreamcast failed to become as profitable as it needed to be at the time. They had to cut the price as well to keep it competitive. When you have no equivalent of a 3DS to support your equivalent of a Dreamcast - of course you're going to fail. That isn't the case with Nintendo, where almost every week the Japanese top 10 is largely dominated by 3DS games. From a financial analyst perspective, Nintendo are doing great in the portable space, especially in Japan. Which is also why I keep bringing up this universal OS idea, because their biggest problem right now is they have a split developer structure, making games between console and handheld, whereas it all just needs to be singular.

"Lets face it 4K is 4K, even if PS5 is more powerful, Nintendo will still have the userbase to generate third party support."

Yeah, 'userbase to generate third party support', thank you for admiting I was right that user base is most important. Still, you provide no proof that an expensive console from Nintendo is guaranteed to even get a moderate user base... It didn't happen with the $350 Wii U.

Remember, we already explained the difference between Sony's 3rd party situation vs Nintendo's, and how 3rd parties still supported a $600 PS3 while they've all since bailed on the Wii U? Yeah, that's called a past precedent, which is what I base my opinions on. If it were all about the power parody, Wii U would have got so many PS3/360 ports by now. Games like GTAV and CoD are technically capable of being on the console, but because of Nintendo's difference in demographic and lower user base, it didn't make sense to release those games for it; publishers rightfully feared the games wouldn't sell well enough to be worth the investment. And the same will happen if Nintendo put out a super expensive console that takes too long to gain a userbase.

If they put out a console that remains $650+ for a whole year, and if only half a million people buy it, what's the point in 3rd parties supporting it? And I'm not saying a cheap console is guaranteed to fly off the shelves, but it's sure a lot more tempting than an expensive 4K machine that's likely guaranteed to be outdated when PS5 comes out.

"Basically to end the argument."

Lol. I love how you can still have the hubris to say that. Even you must of heard editors and people on YouTube and Twitter saying NX will be close to PS4/XBone by now? No one is saying it will or should be 4K; your 4K fantasy is naive and illogical. It's like I don't even need to argue with you anymore, I have the strength in numbers that back my opinion, lol.

And you're not listening anymore, and it's sad that you've let your blind hatred for Nintendo turn a reasonable debate in to a fanboy war. Your vernacular has turned in to childishness now as well with the silly use of caps and calling me a a nintendo employee. Lol, petty insults now... Yeah... notice how I don't resort to that. Maybe I'm just calm because I know I've won the debate, and you're all irrational because you know you've lost, lol.

Your opinion on a 4K console remains in the minority and more people in the industry share my opinion that Nintendo should release a relatively cheap console close to PS4/XBOne in terms of power.

NX will be listed as what ever generation Wikipedia lists it as (or what Nintendo tells them to) and that is likely going to be 9'th gen, so you will be wrong about calling it an 8'th gen console and all your 'double dipping' subjectivity will be proven wrong when that happens. I will agree that some people will definitely be irked about Nintendo prematurely ending the Wii U and I do agree that the Wii U was a myopic failure. The console itself launched in 2012 a whole year before PS4; in reality, it should have launched sometime in 2010, when Wii U sales were beginning to wane and when there was call for a 'Wii HD'.

Your logic that an expensive 4K system will gain a decent enough userbase - so much so that it gets copious 3rd party support, is based on no precedent and can't be compared to the $600 PS3 situation as there is still the stigma that Nintendo doesn't appeal to the Sony/MS crowd.

Your logic that the 4K NX, that's released sometime in 2016, will be able to compete technically with PS5 is likely to be wrong. Something that powerful released in 2016 would cost a ridiculous amount, with almost no room for profitability, unless Nintendo charge software at crazy prices.

I think it's probably for the best to end the debate. If every trusted person in the games media, the journalists, the theorists on YouTube and Twitter can't change your naive opinion (that a 4K NX isn't happening) then I'm certainly not going to. I'll continue to share my opinion with the majority of trusted people in the industry and have my opinion backed by Wikipedia.

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Edited By kazeswen

@Mraou: LOL, I like how you ignored my final point, by saying that I used CAPS. And calling me anti-Nintendo that's something only a fanboy would say. I've owned every single Nintendo console since NES, with the exception of GameCube. I have nothing against the company, just cause I disagree with your mathematical method making business decisions doesn't mean I hate Nintendo. So, please stop with the childlike semantics, first you say that I spelled hypocrisy wrong, then you call me a anti-Nintendo. C'mon are you that desperate. Lets get to the real debate.

You asked for precedence on a powerful expensive system making it, I gave you PS3, you choose to ignore it. You claim that precedence is the ONLY means to make business decisions. I agree partially. But here's the caveat, you are essentially saying that Nintendo should do the exact same thing they did with Wii U "make a cheap console that's almost as powerful as its competition for cheaper prices." Precedence as you so love talking about, has proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that "making a cheap console that's almost as powerful as its competition for cheaper prices" was what killed the Wii U. The Wii U was Nintendo following your strategy of making a cheaper console that almost as powerful as its competition, they failed, if they made Wii U more expensive and the same power as PS4 and XB1 like I would have suggested, Wii U would now be a major player with games like The Witcher 3 and Project Cars, but instead they followed your advice and failed. You want them to do it again, even though you claim that precedence is key to success. If that were so, they should be following the PS3 route by making a unprofitable system at launch take a 300 dollar hit on each unit and build user base and drop prices as the COGS drop on the hardware. It worked for Sony, it'll work for Nintendo, don't give me that Nintendo fans are different crap. Nintendo is in the business of winning over new fans not build on their existing fanbase of 10 million Wii U users. Who gives a crap about what Nintendo fans like, they need to win over PS4 and XB1 fans to stand a chance, and they will not do that by following your strategy of releasing another weak console for as cheap as humanly possible, because they already did that once, Wii U was cheaper than both PS4 and XB1, look what happened.

Second, you keep mentioning how rich Nintendo is, which I agree with, since I was the one who brought up their 10billion reserve. Yet you keep saying that they can't afford to lose 300 per unit on a 4K console, but didn't you just say that they were rich? This was the hypocrisy I was talking about you seem to only use facts when it serves you not against you, you insist that Nintendo is too rich to fail, yet you say that they can't afford to lose 300 per unit like Sony? So which is it, make up your mind, is Nintendo rich or poor? I say RICH.

And I like how you selectively debate with me by ignoring all my finer points, its like you have no answer and just skip points that you cannot argue against.

I gave you a fine detailed example of how Nintendo is doing what Sega did and that history is destined to repeat itself, you say that it doesn't matter cause Nintendo is rich. Then I say if Nintendo is so rich, they can afford to take a loss leader on 4K, then you say no Nintendo needs NX to make money at launch, but aren't they super rich. Then I say that as Nintendo arbitrarily cuts down each of its console's life span by releasing the next one earlier, you say it doesn't matter cause gens don't exist, but they do.

See how you've ignore the point in each argument. You've still not answered how Nintendo will survive shortening each console's life span? By releasing NX earlier, they've shorted Wii U's life span compared to PS4 and XB1, and by releasing NX2 at the same time as PS5, they've shortened the life span of NX compared to PS5 and XB2. Why would anyone in their right mind continue to buy a console knowing that it will become outdated earlier than its competition. You've never answered this.

You claim that console gens shouldn't exist, and console company should be able to release anything at any time, so PS4 and PS5 can be released in 1 year of each other if they wanted to. This is where you are so wrong, console gens is a barometer for which gamers can determine the length of their console investment. It was designed to benefit the gamer, the term gen refers to the length a single hardware revision is expected to remain in the market thus becomes a determining factor on which a gamer should invest their hard earned money into. A gen helps a gamer decide how much money to spend on a any given hardware revision. By blurring gens as Nintendo is doing, they are in essence degrading their Brand Loyalty (go search up this word, its a huge driving factor in business, you seem to ignore).

With each prematurely ditched console, Nintendo shortens the length of its hardware revision aka GEN. You can ignore gens, and ditch the term altogether, but you cannot remove the bad taste in people mouth when they've invested time and money into a console only to see it prematurely exit the market, this is what killed Sega, and will kill Nintendo. All the money in the world cannot buy brand loyalty, this is where your mathematics and analytics fail you. Human beings buy consoles, not robots, and humans are driven by emotions, a term you may be unfamiliar with.

The Wii U will have a short 4 year life cycle at best, which will be 4-5 years shorter than PS4 and XB1. The NX according to you will have a 5 year life cycle depending on how long the PS4 and XB1 remain the in the market before they are phased out. Again 5 years is a lot shorter than what a 4K PS5 and XB2 will have, Tell me why any sensible consumer not even gamer, would want to invest in Nintendo when their consoles consistently exit the market prematurely? Answer me, please.

Brand Loyalty is what drives all modern business, once diminished can never be truly replenished. Something I've brought up multiple times in our debate that you selectively ignored to answer. Maybe its something you don't understand, but trust me it drives business.

Finally, I'd like to answer your unified gaming idea. I don't know why we are even arguing about this. I said from the get go, that Nintendo is most likely too cheap to do a 4K console, the NX is most likely a hybrid console that consolidates its handheld and home market into one, I said that like 20 posts ago. The NX is most likely a tablet with controls attached that plays at home and on the go, you will only ever need to buy one game card, no more handheld vs home. You buy one console and one game and you can play at home or away from home. This was always my most logical step for Nintendo, 4K was only a second suggestion after you brought up future proofing. My prediction for NX is its a Wii U looking Tablet with the entire system inside the Tablet it will have a docking base that connects to the TV with a rom drive that can read Wii and Wii U games, but the main console is inside the Tablet so you can takes games on the go, the Tablet part of the console will have a cartridge slot. (you can quote me on this)

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Mraou

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Edited By Mraou

@kazeswen: "yet you say that they can't afford to lose 300 per unit like Sony? So which is it, make up your mind, is Nintendo rich or poor? I say RICH."

You realise that when Sony lost money on the PS3, it wasn't a good thing for the company? You realise it was among the reasons Kutaragi was demoted from being the father of the PlayStation to put into a window job? PlayStation 3 lost Sony billions back then, Sony's equivalent of a '3DS' was their electronics division, which was doing very well at the time. Of course, we all know the situation with their electronics division now...

So no, turns out Sony couldn't afford to lose money on the PS3, and it's not a good business strategy to put put a console which is that expensive and loses that much money per system. It's a precedent Sony learned to never repeat again. Shuhei Yoshida even joked 'we won't release a console as expensive as PS3 this time', it's a precedent all other console manufacturers will learn from in the future to never repeat, and it's among the reasons your 4K console idea is retarded and not based on solid logical business sense. Your strategy is: 'how Nintendo should repeat Sony's PS3 mistakes, but not have Sony's 3rd party support to keep them afloat', basically.

"And I like how you selectively debate with me by ignoring all my finer points, its like you have no answer and just skip points that you cannot argue against."

Like how you've ignored my points that Wikipedia will prove you wrong, when they list NX as Gen 9 not Gen 8 as you claim, and how games journalists have re-iterated my point that NX will be close to PS4/XBO in terms of power?

And you ask why I don't answer some of your other points; I've explained it. I'm here, first and foremost, to put down your 4K NX idea, which I have. And again, I basically have the entire gaming literati to back my opinion on. Any subjectivity about Nintendo was never in the scope of this debate, we are purely debating the logicality of them putting out a 4K NX versus a PS4/XBO level NX.

"I gave you a fine detailed example of how Nintendo is doing what Sega did and that history is destined to repeat itself, you say that it doesn't matter cause Nintendo is rich."

I said they're not in the same financial situation as Sega was. They have a successful business that keeps them afloat in the form of the 3DS which Sega didn't have at the time, that's the difference. Sony had their electronics division at the time, which kept them afloat. If the PS4 had flopped, it could have been the end for Sony as a whole, because right now their electronics division is doing terribly and they can't rely on it as they once did.

Now your question is, 'Why doesn't Nintendo release a 4K machine - because they can afford to lose money on each console?' Because Nintendo have almost always operated by making systems that are profitable. I believe the Wii U may have been the first console that wasn't sold at a profit, and took 1 game sale to make it profitable. They will be looking to do a similar thing with the NX. You can say that's a 'business man' type answer all you want, but it's still the most logical course of action.

I've already explained the other reasons why them releasing a 4K machine is bad, because it: 1. Guarantees no immediate sales, thus no userbase, 2. Guarantees no 3rd party support and 3. Guarantees no future-proofed console that will compete with PS5. So I don't need to explain all that again.

"Why would anyone in their right mind continue to buy a console knowing that it will become outdated earlier than its competition. You've never answered this."

I did answer this; the NX is a 5 year console. It will only become outdated once the PS5 era begins (5 or so years from now), at which point they release the NX2, which will serve the same lifespan as the PS5 (10+ years). All consoles from then on will have the same lifespan as Sony/MS's consoles; it won't be a continuing trend of them releasing 5 year cycle consoles. Again, it's speculation, but that's what I think, and what editors think as well; that NX basically resets Nintendo and puts them back on parody, tech-wise, with Sony.

As for why would someone buy a console knowing it only has a 5 year lifespan? That is entirely subjective, but 5 years used to be the old lifespan for consoles, so it's not as bad as you make it sound. And again, if the console is relatively cheap, then it's less of an issue in terms of one's personal desire for a long term investment. A maximum of $300 for a 5 year investment is perfectly normal in this era where an entire decade has become a console's lifespan.

"By blurring gens as Nintendo is doing, they are in essence degrading their Brand Loyalty"

I don't disagree that it is irksome the Wii U was such a flop they had to prematurely replace it with a new console. Will it hurt their brand loyalty? Possibly. That's not based on any evidence just yet, but yes, possibly. I can see someone who buys a Wii U next year being very annoyed, if the NX also launches that year too. It's entirely up to Nintendo to get the messaging across properly to ease people in to this transition period.

Now what's funny is, you're trying to back out of your 4K console idea. To jog your memory, this reply chain started when you said (and I'm paraphrasing): 'the NX wouldn't sell if it was a traditional console', to which I replied, 'smarter decisions this time can turn things around'. Then you said: 'it will need to be light years more advanced like 4K resolution to compete', to which I replied, '4K doesn't mean anything to most people, so no, that doesn't matter a whole lot.', to which you replied, 'How do you make it future proof unless you make it 4K?', and I replied 'Even if it were more powerful than PS4/One, it won't be more powerful than PS5 and the next XBox, so power doesn't matter. Not to mention how expensive that would be' ...and that started off this whole Nintendo 4K console debate.

My main argument has been: How do YOU know a 4K Nintendo console released in 2016-17 is guaranteed to be a success, in terms of user base, profitability, 3rd party support and future proofing?

If you can't provide an answer to that, then just admit you were wrong to suggest Nintendo should put out a 4K system in the first place. Admit you were spouting baseless naivete, that wasn't based on logic or any past-precedent.

And now you've even admitted how your 'most logical step for Nintendo' has nothing to do with 4K?! Lol, you've lost the debate, simple as that. You've admitted it.

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Edited By kazeswen

@Mraou: First of all go back and read my previous posts from the very first.

I said if Nintendo does a traditional console it will not sell unless its 4K. I said that it'll only sell if its a gimmick non traditional console like a hybrid mobile unit, Learn how to read.I don't know if you are just blind or just being cheeky. From the very first post I said I don't believe Nintendo is putting out a traditional console to compete with PS4 and XB1. I said numerous times like 5 or 6 times that I believe the NX is a hybrid mobile unit designed NOT to compete with PS4 and XB1. You insisted that it was a traditional home console with the same power or less as PS4. So get your facts straight. When the NX is released as a moblle console you'll know who's right and who's wrong, so until then keep your mouth shut and stop insisting you are right with no proof.

I like your selective replies again. I said why would anyone get a NX if they know its got a shorter life span than other consoles, you say it doesn't matter cause NX2 will have the same life span as PS5. What the hell the does the NX2 have anything to do with the NX? Nobody will get the NX because it has a shorter life span, forget the NX2, there won't even be an NX2 if they follow your plan. And a 300 dollar price tag doesn't make it better a shorter life span is a shorter life span.

And why wouldn't a 4K NX be a 10 year console? Considering the PS5 and XB2 will also be 4K, why wouldn't the NX be able to compete with them? Are there now different levels of 4K like 4.5K or something, to my understanding if a game runs in 4K it runs in 4K. Why wouldn't 3 4K consoles be in the same league? You suggest that Nintendo would need to release another 4K console after PS5? WHY if the NX is already 4K?

FYI The Sony PS3 single handily put Sony's Bluray technology into mainstream and defeated the rival HD DVD, without the expensive PS3, Sony would have lost to Toshiba and MS in the HD media wars and would have lost billions in profit. So, I don't know where you get that PS3 was a mistake, it was the single biggest success of Sony's entire electronic entertainment division, it solidified their top position in the gaming industry, and solidified a never ending royalty stream on Bluray media have you ever used a HDDVD no, cause Bluray is standard, why, cause of PS3. So, I don't know what the hell you are talking about that PS3 was a failure? You are the first person that I've ever talked to that says PS3 was a failure, the notion is so ridiculous its funny.

And again for like the 10th time you selectively argue with me. You ignored my pointing out your hypocrisy over and over again. PRECEDENCE, you speak of precedence, yet you keep insisting that Nintendo does exactly the same thing as they did with the Wii U. I quote you "make a cheap console that's almost as powerful as the competition and sell it for cheaper than the competition" That's EXACTLY what they did with Wii U, they made a cheaper console than the PS4 and XB1 that was almost as powerful but not quite, and they lost the console wars. Yet for a man that lives and breathes precedence you insist that they follow the same path that lead to their losing the 8th gen console wars. You're being a hypocrite here, you cannot ague precedence and then go and backtrack on the very precedence that you so admire. If Nintendo is to not follow precedence of failure, they would need to do the exact opposite "make a console for as expensive as possible and make a much more powerful unit than the competition". Your plan has a precedence of failure as seen by Wii U.

And you keep bringing up so called majority opinion out of your ass. So instead of pulling something out of my ass like you do I give you a real POLL, that I did not set up.

http://www.gamespot.com/forums/system-wars-314159282/if-you-own-a-ps4xbogaming-pc-would-you-buy-an-nx-32370050/#87 This poll in the system wars section has people wanting a more powerful and more expensive NX over a cheaper and slower NX, so that debunks your so called majority theory and proves in the court of public opinion nobody likes your stupid idea except for you. Again this poll shows that my idea is better suited for the paying gamer not your fantasy lalaland customers that you pulled out of thing air.

You question how do I know that a 4K console will be successful, the answer is I don't know nobody does even a cheaper console has no guarantee of success. But from precedence of PS3 I know that people like super powerful expensive consoles. And from the precedence of Wii U I know that people hate consoles that are cheap and inferior in power. So I would rather choose a path I don't know about, than the path that I know will fail. We don't know if an expensive powerful NX will sell, but we know that an cheap and less powerful NX will fail, from precedence.

As for the logical step, I still believe that my best logical step is 4K, but I know for certain that Nintendo will choose the second logical step which is release a mobile hybrid that does not compete with PS4 or XB1 and cannot be seen as double dipping since it is a mobile console. I stand by the choice that if I were head of Nintendo I would make a 4K console, but I know from Nintendo's stinginess as a company, that they will never make a console that loses that much money, so I know that Nintendo will be releasing the NX as a mobile just as I described it. It will not be a traditional home console, just wait and see. 4K is just wishful thinking for me cause I want Nintendo to succeed, but the reality is Nintendo knows they can't compete with PS4 and XB1 so they will not even try and just make a gimmick handheld hybrid console.

And finally I don't give a hoot if NX is labeled 8th or 9th gen, I told you already gen labels are just that LABELS. The true meaning of a gen is how long an investment in each hardware revision entails to a customer. something your robotic mind fails to grasp. I couldn't care less if Nintendo labels NX gen 13. The fact of the matter is they are arbitrarily shortening 2 console revisions life span by releasing their new console early, whether or not 5 years is considered good enough for Nintendo is irrelevant, you compete with the world, not yourself. The length of your hardware revision should match the length of your competitions, nobody gives a sht about what Nintendo thinks is a good enough life cycle, WiiU 4 years, NX 5 years, those are a joke compared to Sony and MS. So what gen NX is considered is irrelevant, how many fans they lose and the tarnishing of brand loyalty is all that matters. In that respect Nintendo is pulling a Sega. You say that Nintendo has money, but you fail to realize that having money doesn't make fans, if nobody wants to buy your system cause they don't trust you, what good does having money do you? Brand Loyalty is everything business, go ask Apple or Samsung.

I say Nintendo should exit the traditional home console market and make handhelds that's what they are best at, they don't have the muscles or the ballz to compete in a nuclear arms race in power with Sony and MS on the home console front, the fact that NX is most likely gonna be a handheld hybrid is probably for the best. Nobody needs 4K graphics on the subway or at the cottage.

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Mraou

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Edited By Mraou

@kazeswen: Firstly, to bring up some latter points, before I get to the hybrid console stuff:

"I said why would anyone get a NX if they know its got a shorter life span than other consoles, you say it doesn't matter cause NX2 will have the same life span as PS5. What the hell the does the NX2 have anything to do with the NX?"

This is a good point. It's subjective, and I can't give you the reason for every single person. My argument is: first, release a cheaper console, that's around $250 or significantly less, that way it's more of an impulse buy, and have a steady stream of 1st and 3rd party games released that year. Don't let the system have a slow start like the Wii U did, and don't dare price it above $300. And I just want to mention the topic of 'gimmicks' I do agree it will have one, but nothing expensive like the GamePad, just something simple, like dual splittable controllers, and I don't think the gimmick will be the core reason for its sales; I think strong software lineup, strong marketing and the Nintendo OS ecosystem prospect that combines portable and console will be key to its sales this time.

"I don't know where you get that PS3 was a mistake, it was the single biggest success of Sony's entire electronic entertainment division"

Oh boy, another one of your classic tangents. We're not even discussing Blu-Ray - I agree the PS3 was a Trojan horse that helped Blu-Ray win the format war. It doesn't change the fact it was still stupid expensive to manufacture and lost Sony billions. The PS3 eventually became a great system, it never reached PS2's sales success, though. But there's a laundry list of where Sony went wrong with it early on, and the fact you aren't aware of it and act like I'm the first one to tell you says a lot about your naivete to the industry. Let's not forget how you also said "Nintendo forgot that the N64 was the most powerful system in that generation and was one of the best gens for Nintendo, because of that.", so you clearly aren't that versed in the industry.

"you speak of precedence, yet you keep insisting that Nintendo does exactly the same thing as they did with the Wii U. I quote you "make a cheap console that's almost as powerful as the competition and sell it for cheaper than the competition" That's EXACTLY what they did with Wii U, they made a cheaper console than the PS4 and XB1 that was almost as powerful but not quite, and they lost the console wars."

Okay, now I don't know whether you're just playing dumb. The Wii U, technically is not 'almost as powerful but not quite' as PS4; it has only twice the available RAM of 360 and a more powerful GPU, but it's CPU is actually slower than the 360's and PS3's, so in reality, it's closer to a PS3/360 and far from the PS4. The Wii U in reality was supposed to be Nintendo's platform for getting 360/PS3 ports on once the Wii sales had stagnated, not primarily to compete with PS4 - we didn't even know officially when PS4 and XBO were launching until after february of 2013, where it was announced they would launch later that year. The problem was, Nintendo waited too long to release the Wii U and in reality, it should have come some time in 2010 at the earliest.

"This poll in the system wars section has people wanting a more powerful and more expensive NX over a cheaper and slower NX"

Lol, a poll from System Wars, a forum run by teenage fanboys and Nintendo haters-alike. Remember I've always made it clear I'm not quoting fanboys, but what people in the industry have speculated; I count trusted people who make YouTube content and Twitter posts in that as well. If I was a naive fanboy, of course I'd say I want the NX to be a 4K console - I'd also want it to do my laundry and cook my dinner, lol. This is why you don't poll random people who have no perspective on how the industry works.

Now, on to the hybrid console stuff:

"I said if Nintendo does a traditional console it will not sell unless its 4K. I said that it'll only sell if its a gimmick non traditional console like a hybrid mobile unit, Learn how to read."

You did say that about a hybrid console, I'm aware of that. You've also buried the idea and now say '4K is your most logical step', several posts later, and I'm going to show you.

First you start with:

"If the NX is a traditional console designed to compete directly with XB1 and PS4, it will need to be light years more advanced like 4K resolution to compete since PS4 and XB1 will already have a huge lead this gen."

This is the basis of the current 4K argument we're having, that you have now accepted won't happen.

Secondly, regarding the hybrid console idea, you said:

"Making it a hybrid handheld won't do them any good for third party support, since it won't be powerful enough to handle any of the multi-plats. And third party devs hate Nintendo's wacky zanny console ideas to begin with."

There was no point to this statement, since I was saying the console would be close to the PS4 and XBO and could handle their 3rd party multi-plats.

Furthermore, the topic of a hybrid console is discussed in the form of a Nintendo OS that lets you play the likes of 3DS games on a TV, you said:

"Also, why on earth would you wanna play 3DS games on your TV in 2D???? That makes no since, why would I wanna play low resolution, poor graphics version of a 3DS game on my TV"

I replied with 'the infrastructure wasn't even in the Wii U to allow them to do that and upscale 3DS games'; basically explaining it's an example of what they should of have done with the Wii U but didn't, and what they will do with the NX - if it is based on the same OS and has portable backwards compatibility.

That's 2 examples of you basically refuting your own hybrid idea. In a debate over what's best for the NX, you contradict your own hybrid console idea, where you initially say "it'll only sell if its a gimmick non traditional console like a hybrid mobile" but then go on to say "Making it a hybrid handheld won't do them any good for third party support" and also lament the idea of playing portable games on a TV.

Let's not forget this classic from you:

"I don't sit in my living room on my 4K tv playing low budget handheld games, when I could be playing 100millon dollar AAA games instead."

So you say a hyrbrid will sell, it just won't get 3rd party support? We are discussing the topic of NX getting 3rd party support, so why would you say it's 'logical' for them to release a system which doesn't get any? And you wouldn't want to play portable games on a TV anyway? Point is, despite you thinking a hybrid console would be the 'most logical' idea for them, you've done everything to completely put it down. You've buried your own hybrid idea.

Now, here's the part which ends this debate once and for all:

In the previous post before last, you said a hybrid idea was "always my most logical step for Nintendo", now in the last post you said "As for the logical step, I still believe that my best logical step is 4K"

....

If you're trying to say 'X is what I think they will do' and 'Y is what I think they should do' then just say so. But at this point you've refuted X (the hybrid idea) and now you've come to realise Y is an impossibility (the 4K idea).

You're flip-flopping all over the place and don't believe in either of your ideas. It's officially over for you.

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kazeswen

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Edited By kazeswen

@Mraou: What does having third party support have anything to do with Nintendo selling consoles, Wii had sht third party support but the gimmick alone was worth the purchase. Live with it, Nintendo will never get home console third party support unless they go 4K which they won't, so the next best thing is to go hybrid handheld, which is what I said in the very first post.

I said that a hybrid will sell not that it will have third party support. And again you ignore my posts creatively as always. I said that I stand by my idea that 4K is the way I'd go if I ran Nintendo. But I don't run Nintendo, given Nintendo's track record, they will most likely go hybrid handheld. But it'll sell, because it is not competing directly with PS4 and XB1 and is a novel idea.

I also like how you selectively ignored my post about 4K being a 10 year console, when I said that 4K is 4K and that Nintendo can easily release one console now that'll bridge two console cycles. You either agree or have no come back for that.

And in what world 250 is considered a impulse buy is beyond me.

What I love most is how you ignore the gamers who actually buy the systems over an idea that you dreamed up in your basemenf. News flash POLLS are what companies conduct in private before they release a console, they don't listen to some random bum sprouting nonsense in his basement. A POLL at gamespot has infinitely more validity than you will ever have, so to discard that over your own delusions is just truly ridiculous. For some one who so called values the opinions of the masses, you've lost your debate when you say don't care what the masses think. Looks like your the one flip-flopping over here. not me. And for someone who claims to value the opinion of insiders, you seem to be ignoring the fact that almost all insiders say that NX is not a traditional console but rather a low powered hybrid handheld. Again, you seem to flip-flop on your own ideas, so do you value the opinion of the majority as you so claim or don't you. Cause from where I stand the majority says they want an expensive powerful console, and the experts say that NX is a hybrid handheld not a home console. But then again, I'm arguing with a hypocrite who seems content only using points when they benefit his argument. Remember you yourself said that you value experts opinions and value the majority opinion over the minority, seems like you flip-flopped on that one in a blink of an eye.

I'm done arguing with a hypocrite, you seem to have no answer for half my points and flip-flop on your own points as you see fit.

To summarize the debate.

Nintendo is killing brand loyalty, no answer. Why anyone would buy a cheap console knowing it has a low life span, no answer. Why the NX 4K will not be a 10 year console even though its 4K, again no answer. Why the polls favor my opinion over yours. again no answer. (blame it on the haters, Why would haters want to buy an NX to begin with LOL). Why all the experts say that NX is a hybrid handheld, again no answer. Why history won't repeat itself ala Sega. History always repeats itself, but not according you they won't (because NIntendo is rich, really thats your best answer) Why precedence don't mean jack squat to you when you clearly live by it Wii U failed, PS3 thrived, so instead of following the precedence of success you choose to follow the precedence of failure another cheap console thats barely as powerful as last gens, great idea if you like failing. And whats this with Wii U should be would be could be...uhh...2010...uh it was never mean't to be good.. You sound completely insane with your Wii U 2010 rant, live with what happened Wii U was a cheap console that was barely able compete and you want the same for NX.

Public opinion sides with me on 4K, insider opinion sides with me on hybrid gimmick console. All you got is could be should be would be 2010 Wii U nonsense.

I'm done, you lost. As Donald Trump would say LIVE WITH IT.

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Mraou

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Edited By Mraou

@kazeswen: The points about Sega, and PS3 compared to Wii U's situation, were explained about 4 or 5 posts ago; you chose not to read them, and said I didn't have an answer. And again, I'm not having a fanboy subjective debate with you; I'm refuting your dumbass ridiculous 4K console idea. And now I've just pointed out how you've put down your own hybrid console idea, which is the thing you expect them to do. That's the scope of the debate and that's the debate you have lost.

You can bring up other topics in to it, and declare yourself the victor over them, but that's called a 'strawman argument'. Yeah, strawman, another one of my terms you can add to your euro-english limited vocabulary, and repeat at me, lol, no offense if English isn't your first language, but you have repeated my words at me about 3 times now.

Things like brand loyalty are subjective and mean nothing to the debate of a 4K console and you took a poll from System Wars, a forum of people not guaranteed to be involved in the industry; show me Jeff Gerstmann from Giant Bomb being serious and saying Nintendo should put out a 4K system and you'd have more credibility.

There's nothing more to argue about, we have come to the climax.

The console you think they will put out, the hybrid, you've completely shot down, but have accepted that that's what they will do.

The 4K console you have admitted is a fantasy, which has always been my point, it's a fantasy and makes no sense. You've come to agree with me, and that's that. It's a fantasy; it's a retarded idea and it's not grounded in any logical business sense.

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kazeswen

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Edited By kazeswen

@Mraou: I said I was done, but you gotta keep going.

To clarify I said from the get go that Nintendo would put out a hybrid handheld unit, you said that to be successful they would need to make it futureproof home console. I said that 4K is the only way to future proof it. The rest of the debate was about whether they should put out a 4K console not if they would. Because you and I both know Nintendo is way too cheap to ever put out a 4K console. So I was never arguing on if they would or not, but rather if they should or not. In that respect, gamespot tends to agree with me, whether that means anything is up to you, but we are on gamespot.

Now is Nintendo gonna put out a 4K, hell no, they don't care about what people want, they will always make the cheapest crap available to try to cash in on it. In that respect you and I both agree that Nintendo will put out a cheap piece of junk. Hell if Nintendo could glue two chopsticks together and sell 100million units they would, they have no corporate ethics as company. Now the only saving grace for this cheap piece of junk that they call NX is its hybrid nature, which honestly ain't a bad idea, I'd buy a hybrid Nintendo mobile console, they can keep the chopsticks.

As for Brand Loyalty, that ain't subjective, its business. I'm loyal to two Brands, Sony and Thinkpads. All my computers are Thinkpads, and I buy Sony consoles on day one regardless of price and power. Something I'd never do for a Nintendo product.

And dude, I already have very little respect for you as a human being, but trying to put down someone's English, c'mon dude, you're getting really desperate here. Is there no low that you will not sink to? Are you really gunning to become the Nintendo of human beings?! From what i'm reading you ain't no Shakespeare yourself, half the time you sound like a retarded android, and your whole Wii U 2010 rant was laughable at best.

What's left, nothing.

Now we wait and see. God forbid they put out a cheap piece of junk without the hybrid gimmick, then they are in serious trouble....Super Trouble (pun intended)

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Mraou

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Edited By Mraou

@kazeswen: The purpose of the debate is now over.

You admitted your 4K idea was just a fantasy, and said the hybrid console was more the likely idea.

There's nothing left to be said. All you can come up with is strawman arguments; you can't take back the fact you admitted the 4K idea was a fantasy, you said "4K is just wishful thinking for me". So, it's over, you've admitted it's wishful thinking; it's a fantasy. You have lost the purpose of the debate, so let's leave it as that.

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youngsexynerd

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Psssst... Just a little info for the guy asking him questions... BLOODBORNE IS SCI/FI !!!

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quickshooterMk2

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@youngsexynerd: no, it still has magic

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NothingForMoney

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Edited By NothingForMoney

@quickshooterMk2: So does Star Wars

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AceJakk

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@nothingformoney: Which is, by and large, considered fantasy.

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Linusa

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@AceJakk: Clearly it isn't "by and large", or you wouldn't need to explain it to everyone. And if you're referring to this:
https://simondillonbooks.wordpress.com/2014/03/11/why-star-wars-is-not-science-fiction-and-related-matters/
Then I am completely unconvinced. It assumes a very narrow view of science fiction and a very broad view of fantasy. Even Halo could be fantasy based on that article. Most of what it says is:
"Fantasy is about people, and science fiction is just about technobabble and robots being people". It sounds like someone who thinks fantasy is better than science fiction in general, but they like Star Wars, so they need to justify it by saying Star Wars is entirely fantasy. I could see sci fi/fantasy, but entirely fantasy is absurd.

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Argle

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@AceJakk: No way Star Wars is fantasy, they have laser swords and an intergalactic empire.

Sci-fi: future tech (lasers, spaceships, intergalactic travel)

Fantasy: old tech (metal, fire, horses)

Star Wars is sci-fi, Bloodborne is fantasy

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AceJakk

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@Argle: I don't think you have a very thorough understanding of genres. Do me a favor and Google "Star Wars is fantasy not sci-fi" and read up on how wrong you are.

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Argle

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Edited By Argle

@AceJakk: Right, ok. Let's see:

what makes Star Wars fantasy: genre tropes and the Force

what makes Star Wars sci-fi: everything else

I'm not saying it is sci-fi from an in-depth genre study standpoint, but from where I would expect to find it if I were browsing movies. Yes, it definitely has strong fantasy elements, but most people would look for it under 'sci-fi'. Debate it all you want but to 9/10 people Star Wars is sci-fi.

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AceJakk

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@Argle: my apologies. Star Wars is by and large considered a fantasy to people who know what they're talking about instead of people who don't understand genres.

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Argle

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@AceJakk: your understanding of genres has no practical use if it makes no sense to those that are trying to use them. most people know Star Wars as sci-fi, so it is sci-fi. your arguments echo in a relatively empty ivory tower.

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Eckso25

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Several new projects or clones? *ds fanboys dissing this post in 3,2,1*

P. S i like dark souls & bloodborne.

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B3GV5M63

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@eckso25:

dark souls is more unique than anything released these days. its not a clone of anything

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youngsexynerd

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@b3gv5m63: It was a clone of Demon Souls! Now if you would have said Demon Souls was the most unique thing, then yes I would agree with you! technically speaking I wouls say that Bloodborne is more unique then Dark Souls!!

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B3GV5M63

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@youngsexynerd:

he made demon souls.

oh you little fanboy. whatever. dark souls is better than demons

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Eckso25

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@b3gv5m63: Any DS/BB fanboy is nothing less than cancerous.

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AceJakk

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@b3gv5m63: Overall I disagree. I still think Demon's was the most difficult and thoughtful in the expanded franchise.

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B3GV5M63

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@AceJakk said:

@b3gv5m63: Overall I disagree. I still think Demon's was the most difficult and thoughtful in the expanded franchise.

doesn't make any sense if you read everything i said up there.

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AceJakk

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@b3gv5m63: "dark souls is better than demons"... Which is what I was replying to. Not sure how my statement doesn't make sense in relation to that, but oh well.

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BradBurns

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@b3gv5m63: ehhh..idk. Demon's Souls was superior in many ways. They're both awesome games, though.

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B3GV5M63

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Edited By B3GV5M63

@BradBurns said:

@b3gv5m63: ehhh..idk. Demon's Souls was superior in many ways. They're both awesome games, though.

am am sure it is. by having no open world. easy ass non-memorable downright lazy boss fights. small areas. less weapons, less armors. less items. less levels. less enemies. less NPCs. less bosses. smaller world. the worst final boss ever. awful controls. absolutely no mini bosses. awful and downright aggrivating crafting system. it sure is better. definitely. i mean its an opinion but these facts sure do not matter. ride to hell retribution is my favorite game of all time

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BradBurns

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@b3gv5m63: The art, the story, and the characters were more interesting. The story was much better. Dark Souls' story never really made any sense and seems to exist just 'cuz.

And I liked the more arcadey levels. Dark Souls is really good too but I liked Demon's better. Never touched DS II, though.

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B3GV5M63

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@BradBurns:

both games have pretty much the same story with different characters

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oflow

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Fastforward 3 years and all these hipsters will be hating it for becoming a yearly franchise.

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kazeswen

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@oflow: God please don't become a franchise, nobody can handle a yearly Dark Souls, the game is pseudo-masochistic. I still haven't fully recovered from dying 100 times to Fume Knight in Dark Souls 2.

Dark Souls torture is something that needs to be taken in small doses maybe once every 3 years when you wanna punish yourself. To torture yourself every year, is too much.

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Tony56723

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@kazeswen: Haha I've beaten DS, DS2 (twice now), and BB (three times) all this year. Ehh I guess I'm just a masochist

Just Fume a little while ago as well, damn he was hard

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kazeswen

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@tony56723: Fume and Dragon Aries were the hardest bosses I ever fought.

How many time did I get Aries down to one hit, only be smoked by the one hit kill flame.

No way I can play these games annually.

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Tony56723

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@kazeswen: At least you can play them, my friends avoid them like the plague haha

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FvckGabeNewell

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@kazeswen: I don't think thats the plan they are just makeing more franchines

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D_

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As long as he continues making games that are challenging & that have a similar formula to DS then I'm happy with whatever. I'm still hoping for a Demon's Souls 2 though.

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beyondthegun

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Edited By beyondthegun

A souls inspired Sci-fi game sounds intriguing.

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youngsexynerd

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@beyondthegun: Bloodborne!

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@youngsexynerd: is not sci-fi. they use 19th century weaponry and carriages. there is absolutely zero future tech in Bloodborne

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beyondthegun

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@youngsexynerd: That is like a gothic thing more than sci-fi. I am thinking like dead space sci-fi....I miss that series.

Bloodborne rocks!

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Thanatos2k

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Sure, I'll play whatever you make.

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DiamondDM13

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Yeah sure whatever, just keep making the games I'll keep sending my money your way...

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msauce32

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Give them the rights to Star Wars. I'm talkin Bloodborne combat with lightsabers and laser guns.

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kazeswen

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Edited By kazeswen

A Samurai inspired Dark Souls would be so awesome, there are way way way too many AAA western styled gothic RPGs nowadays. The Witcher 3, Lords of the Fallen, Elder Scrolls, Bound by Flame, etc, etc. etc.

Just about everybody and their uncle is making western gothic RPGs nowadays. I'd love to see an old school Japanese feudal era samurai based RPG like the old Onimusha games.

There are just so many dragons, trolls, and phantoms that you can kill using a kite shield and broadsword before it gets really old.

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BaconTopHat45

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@kazeswen: Wrong era. Medieval not Gothic. Bloodbourne is Gothic era. Many had some elements from Gothic horror though. But overall I agree too many western style Medieval RPGs. Samurai Souls sounds great to me as well as Sci-fi Souls.

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kazeswen

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Edited By kazeswen

@bacontophat45: My bad, I mean't medieval. It was really cool in the beginning when Oblivion came out, but then the genre became too inundated, now its almost become its own thing, subgenre within a genre, the whole medieval western RPG thing.

Sci-Fi Cyber Punk, Samurai Feudal Era, Chinese WuXia, Steampunk, Roaring 20s, I'll settle for anything other than more medieval rpgs.

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FvckGabeNewell

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@kazeswen: feudal japan or china sounds good so long as they dont mix it with to much fantasy

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IJONOI

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@kazeswen: this!!

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deactivated-5b6fca28803ac

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tip for ppl who think this game is to challenging: dont play like pewdiepie

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