Am I the only one who feels like this has been "dumbed down"?

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#1 Posted by admiral_picard (674 posts) -

I just played the demo, and now I see that the tactical mode has forgone TUs which I hate. So every unit gets 2 moves total, and if they even use one move they can't shoot? Only one of the squad members had some ability that let them shoot after they used 1 move. I liked the way the old TU system worked, it required a real trade off - do you waste all your TUs moving up, or do you advance slowly and reserve enough to take shots? Do you use one guy to scout and the rest cover him, or do you move as a giant cohesive unit?

I was almost ready to pre-order this...but I'm really leery now after the demo. The demo actually concerns me more for how the game will actually play than before I played it. The scripted nature of the demo really doesn't give me a good feel for what the game is like at all. I wish they'd just have given us 24 hours of in-game time to see what it's like to run a base, shoot down ships, and maybe have a scripted terror event or something toward the end. This demo hardly shows me anything, other than that tactical mode looks greatly simplified from the previous one - trading a bunch of skills/abilities for the old traits.

I mean, Firaxis also made Civ V - a game that dumbed down from its predecessor in great amounts just to create a more approachable game. I don't truly know how much they've changed in the X COM formula though. Anyone else feel like the tactical mode isn't as rich and diverse as it used to be?

#2 Posted by Cirkelinespark (396 posts) -

No you are not the only one.

I hate the fact that they removed stats from the game. Seriously why remove something that's great and replace it with "move 2 times". The character progression is completely ruined!

From what I could see in the demo, there's no inventory management either? Your troops are just given weapons based on class and rank/skill. I hope this is only because of the demo, because if it isn't then, this game is already doomed.

I also get the feel that, the freedom you had in the original has been replaced with "do this do that". And the interface is very much dumbed down as well.

I do hope it won't!, but I think this game will fail hard.

=(

#3 Posted by Zaral_1 (186 posts) -
It's not you the game is dumbed down, you only have 4 soliders now, you don't have equipment from what i can tell, your characters just have classes that gives them X weapon. You can't go through each characters inventory, and your characters don't have all the crazy stats they used to. I think streamlining is a good thing, but the removal of the time units, and reserving so many to make a counter attack seems to be too much.
#4 Posted by admiral_picard (674 posts) -

Yeah, I mean I can see the stats as being overwhelming for the average player today (Let's face it - old school gamers put up with walls of text and incomprehensible games way more often, thinking of classics like Master of Orion, Civilization, Colonization, etc.) but I hate the two move system so much. I think I'm going to wait this one out to see what reviewers have to say - but sadly I feel only those of us who played the original will have these gripes. Two moves per soldier removes all the thought out of tactical mode, and that was the charm with the old X COM. I spent so much time in tactical on the original UFO Defense, this new one seems like it won't take much time at all to complete. The action camera and everything are all about in your face excitement and less about the careful tactics - which seems like a grab to get the younger gamers and others who are bored by these kinds of games.

I wish Firaxis would've just done like the Total War series does - it doesn't try to put in some hyped up crap that no one really is interested in, it adds a few new features but overall retains the original core elements that make people enjoy the series so much. In the Total War series, you can love and enjoy Rome TW and also love Medieval II and also love Empire TW - the core gameplay is still great and hasn't been so rapidly changed that long time players won't get it. Imagine if Total War tried to implement some simplified things in that game to appeal to the younger generation. Simplifying strategy games is always a bad idea unless it's just a casual game - and I can respect that. Casual strategy games are quick and easy to pick up and play a whole match in maybe 15-20 minutes. But come on guys, games like X COM - you play through a campaign for days, weeks, maybe even months depending on your pace. I stopped playing Civ IV because it just sucked all my time. Like some kind of addict I buy all kinds of strategy games that I know I shouldn't because they'll just eat all my time - but I love the intricacy. Simplification is not fun, it just makes the game feel shallow and destroys replay value.

I could boot up UFO Defense right now and enjoy it because a new game will play different than the last. This new Enemy Unknown is looking to be too cookie cutter - the demo just raises more concerns that the game is not as good as the original. I'm not inspired to have confidence so I'll be holding off on the pre-order (Gosh darn it, I wanted those hats in TF2...shallow they may be :P).

#5 Posted by aroberts7969 (2 posts) -
Wow, did you guys even play the demo, or just come straight to the forums to complain? Lets me start off by saying I'm a fan of the original series as well and have been playing it overtime with this release date coming up. A couple things to counter your points. I agree the missions they put out in the demo were pretty scripted, but that is because they were the tutorial missions, probably to get everyone used to the new interface. Speaking of which I like the simplified, not dumbed down, move structure. The first X-Com was too tedious with the number crunching. OK I have 35 time units if I move here I will still have 14 units left to shoot my pistol, or move here and take a less accurate shot with my rifle, crap I moved 1 TU too many now I just get shot in the face. It takes all the number crunching out of the game. Mover here for a better vantage point, or move here and provide cover. From what I can tell in the demo the heavy, assault, and support classes can use their first move to move and their second to shoot. This still allows for tactical gameplay. Leave a sniper on overwatch, move up one or two guys fully leaving an assault rifle in reserve just in case. Also it states clearly on the deployment screen that you can have more than a 4 man squad, you just have to have an officer training school, which again was locked in the demo. There was also another locked feature for you to customize your loadout. You want a squad of heavies, take all heavies, you want a recon team take some snipers and assault rifles. I'm sure once the game progresses you will have the chance to take more powerful weapons into the game, albeit they will have to correspond to the class of soldier you bring into battle. To me this also is an improvement over the original because you have to plan for a mission and play a certain style which can be changed from mission to mission, not just OK I'm going to bring my whole arsenal to the battle field and everyone pick up two weapons and search the map for aliens. The problem with this demo is I feel like it does not give an accurate representation of what the game will be like. Where is the customization of squads and base structure, aerial combat, and how does one go about capturing and researching alien tech? We'll just have to buy the game to find out. If this was just a straight up remake of the original with graphic and AI improvements people would complain about paying $50 for a game they already have. This is a re-imagining of the series and from what I can tell a much needed face lift. I say for the fans of the series go in with an open mind and you might be surprised otherwise we will have to wait another 15 years for an X-Com game only for it to get blasted on the internet before anyone has truly gotten to play it yet. Take a look at the Now Playing segment here on Gamespot if you want to get a better idea of how the game plays. I for one am pre-ordering off of steam (Picard I don't play TF2 so lets talk about hats) and can't wait for Oct 9.
#6 Posted by bond22 (596 posts) -

For those that say its dumbed down check out this tool.

http://db.tt/ebDLuSvZ

With it you change what enemies you see on the second mission, increase your squad to 6, change the difficulty and even change the weapons.

Just to give you a taste of whats to come.

can't wait for Oct 9th

#7 Posted by aroberts7969 (2 posts) -
Great tool! Damned mind control. Makes me even more excited, thanks
#8 Posted by Deinbeck (657 posts) -
I'm going to pass on this for the time being. It looks like it's gotten the retard treatment. Demo was boring, tutorial was dumb and needless. The camera is poorly implemented. I want to choose my own load-out, I don't want to be limited to 4 squad members, and I don't want to be constrained by some dumb contrived class system. If the demo was meant to sell the game, it had the opposite effect. I would have bought this day one, after playing it I'll pass completely.
#9 Posted by fire_and_light (30 posts) -

The short sightedness of some of these posters is amazing.  It was a DEMO, all you have to do is read a little bit and you will see that the features you are complaining about not having are in the game.  Stop, think a little bit, do some research once in awhile. You complain about stuff being dumbed down, and then you are whining because you arent being spoon fed.

#10 Posted by PLH2034 (87 posts) -

LMAO all these guys saying it's dumbed down are really showing how dumb they are.

Try a simple web search for Xcom gameplay and you would have all your questions answered.

I would suggest reading the review, but judging from your comments I doubt you could handle 10 paragraphs.

 

http://www.gameinformer.com/games/xcom_enemy_unknown/b/xbox360/archive/2012/10/05/review.aspx

#11 Posted by servo (2 posts) -

I've been playing the original and I've found most of the soldier stats other than time units weren't very useful, and TU were implemented in such a tedious fashion. For example priming a grenade then finding when you want to throw it you lose a valuable TU or two turning and then being stuck blowing your soldier up. I like the streamlining, and got the same decision making of 'make a run to scout' vs. 'move a bit and stay defensive.' Perk management may bring the additional strategy of soldier roles that the other stats in the original were intended for.

I'm more worried on how the bigger strategic gameplay is handled, since that hasn't been shown off as much as the tactical stuff.

#12 Posted by Kevin-V (5156 posts) -

I see a lot of misconceptions about this game in this thread. I will say more in the full review, of course, but a few points must be made:

1. You can have up to six units, not four, and ultimately use SHIVs if you like, instead of soldiers. 

2. Soldiers have inventories. Not every class can use every weapon, but as you conduct research and buy foundry upgrades, you gain access to all sorts of weapons: plasma, laser, and so on. And of course, there are different types of armor and peripheral equipment, such as grenades, health packs, the S.C.O.P.E., and so on. You can customize your loadouts and customize your teams. You can customize the looks of your soldiers and rename them. 

3. There are various abilities to earn as you level up. including an ability to shoot after you have sprinted. (Someone above mentioned that one specifically, so I wanted to bring it up.) Abilities include things like additional boosts offered by smoke grenades, suppressive fire, the ability to fire again if you use your first move to fire, and on and on.

Most of the complaints in this thread just have no basis in reality, and all of that information is actually out there in preview coverage.

#13 Posted by edwardecl (2239 posts) -
Time units, energy and wounds were really the 3 main stats in UFO. If you got injured or had stood your soldier in smoke you could not run as far and it got progressively worse, same with aliens. Every solider was different and was better at some things while not as good at other things. Streamlining the game as they call it take away this tactical advantage/disadvantage. How is that a good thing? I agree the grenade thing was bad, so much so I hardly ever use a grenade in the original. They could have fixed it by taking away the time units used to prime and just asked you as you threw/dropped it, no need to take away features. As for leveling up soldier... this is the worst idea I've ever heard of, the original you went through soldiers usually 1 or 2 per mission if you are battling something more than small UFO's, so in this game I take it if you lose a soldier it's much more painful and less likely to happen? part of the fun was laughing when you best soldier died and just go a buy a new one. If you are forced to keep the same 6 soldiers for the entire game then wheres the fun? and yes I know the original had a rank system but it didn't give you perks that you had to research and probably pay for. Also only 6 soldiers?!? I know in the original UFO I only ever really used 6-8 keep some in reserve for accidents... they would use the run and get the dead guys weapons approach early game which added to the hilarity factor when they got shot attempting it. And also picking up the aliens weapons and use them against them, which was fun but this has been taken away... I remember once putting a chysallid in my backpack after stunning it because i was going to research it but not finish the mission, you can guess the outcome of that, but this has also been taken away from this game :(. Unintentional funny things made UFO what it was so don't get rid of it. Why try to fix something that isn't broken why not just expand on the original theme, I would have loved to have midair boarding of UFO's and perhaps even in space once you get the craft. Would be a really great tactic on very large UFO, board it with a small team and destroy the command centre and get out and watch it crash. Stuff like that would be awesome... But no we get a streamlined game... as usual. I might play it at some point, but i don't have high hopes that this will be better than the original, just different which is not always better.
#14 Posted by oberst2 (251 posts) -
[QUOTE="edwardecl"]Time units, energy and wounds were really the 3 main stats in UFO. If you got injured or had stood your soldier in smoke you could not run as far and it got progressively worse, same with aliens. Every solider was different and was better at some things while not as good at other things. Streamlining the game as they call it take away this tactical advantage/disadvantage. How is that a good thing? I agree the grenade thing was bad, so much so I hardly ever use a grenade in the original. They could have fixed it by taking away the time units used to prime and just asked you as you threw/dropped it, no need to take away features. As for leveling up soldier... this is the worst idea I've ever heard of, the original you went through soldiers usually 1 or 2 per mission if you are battling something more than small UFO's, so in this game I take it if you lose a soldier it's much more painful and less likely to happen? part of the fun was laughing when you best soldier died and just go a buy a new one. If you are forced to keep the same 6 soldiers for the entire game then wheres the fun? and yes I know the original had a rank system but it didn't give you perks that you had to research and probably pay for. Also only 6 soldiers?!? I know in the original UFO I only ever really used 6-8 keep some in reserve for accidents... they would use the run and get the dead guys weapons approach early game which added to the hilarity factor when they got shot attempting it. And also picking up the aliens weapons and use them against them, which was fun but this has been taken away... I remember once putting a chysallid in my backpack after stunning it because i was going to research it but not finish the mission, you can guess the outcome of that, but this has also been taken away from this game :(. Unintentional funny things made UFO what it was so don't get rid of it. Why try to fix something that isn't broken why not just expand on the original theme, I would have loved to have midair boarding of UFO's and perhaps even in space once you get the craft. Would be a really great tactic on very large UFO, board it with a small team and destroy the command centre and get out and watch it crash. Stuff like that would be awesome... But no we get a streamlined game... as usual. I might play it at some point, but i don't have high hopes that this will be better than the original, just different which is not always better.

you only got 6 soldier in the field but you can have x numbers of soldier on stanby in you base ifr have kia or wia
#15 Posted by Darthpathfinder (6759 posts) -
Yes you get two move units and some weapons you have to stand still to be able to fire them but all the people in your squad get two weapons...So your heavy can either stand there ground and fire either a rocket or a LMG or move and fire the LMG or dash and not fire at all. The sniper is the same but rather than having an LMG they get a pistol...Plus to replace the stats systems from the past games there is a now a skill use system so like is a sniper kills an enemy with a shot they can take another shot...and the assault class can use run and gun to be able to dash for the two move units but still be able to fire... Heck i have not even played the demo and i was able to pick all that up from viewing gameplay vids....
#16 Posted by edwardecl (2239 posts) -
What good are soldiers if they are in your base, I was talking about having them ready when people die, which happens quite a lot. Sure you had to sacrifice 4 solider spaces for 1 tank, but tanks had a different use typically good on terror missions but not much else. Again the strategy was when to use or not use something but Firaxis in their wisdom have made that choice for us obviously because they think we are too stupid to go through the menu and change it ourselves. This run shoot thing just seems like and attempt at making something look cool in preview videos to speed up the action rather than actually being cool, there is a difference. Sure it can work but it is never going to be on the same page as the strategy in the original. I don't entirely blame Firaxis for this, I bet the publisher told them what they could and could not do in this aspect. This just shows the crappy situation that publishers hold over the development studios. No random maps this is a big one, this is like admitting they don't want to put much replay value in their game. Yes yes i know the original wasn't totally random, it was based on premade tiles which really did limit the creativity of the level design, but seriously this is almost 20 years later and they can't do it? shows how bad they are in my opinion. part of the fun was not knowing the exact level layout each time, but to be honest the original did get a bit repetitive with the same tiles appearing over and over so this could have been improved. Nope instead they took the easy option just don't bother let the users mod it themselves. Then there is the really crappy animation and art style, the original game was almost scarey in appearance with the limited resources that were available. This game looks more Disney in design comparison they have made most of the aliens overly animated and the voice overs from the previews sound out of place, I'd rather have no voices and leave it to your imagination, again leave that to the modders :). All the previews I've seen are night missions, which is funny because in the original you never go out at night... because the aliens totally ripped you up for arse paper as they could all see in the dark, where are the videos for day missions?
#17 Posted by MooncalfReviews (1927 posts) -

Most of the complaints in this thread just have no basis in reality ...

Kevin-V

 

Bollocks they don't. No stats? No time units? 6 man squads? Those are game ruining things. 3 of the best things in the original, ruined.

#18 Posted by tiggerlu (165 posts) -

Allow me to add perspective - it's been 200 years since the last X-COM game was made. Times have changed. Enjoy the game while it's around, the next one your grand-kids might be playing.

#19 Posted by edwardecl (2239 posts) -
Doubt it... times have not changed that much, really just the publishers being greedy and aiming games at the the mass market of people who don't like this sort of game. They seem to think everyone has short attention spans and to make games last 5 - 10 hours and not be too difficult. There are a few games that go against the grain, Dark Souls which is quite popular, X (space game)series , Mount & Blade and funnily enough Civlilzation to some extent although I had to mod it myself to sort out the game speed (research), and probably others I can't think of at the moment. All publishers are interested in is what is popular currently which sadly is mostly first person shooters and action oriented games. It's only because Firaxis makes turned based strategy games that they can even contemplate undertaking such a project, probably not going to be a terrible game but why bother if it's going to be half arsed with compromises. And no I don't like cheating AI either, just a challenge. With Firaxis track record of just increasing the difficulty by making the AI cheat I don't have much hope for this. They like to cut corners, where as the AI in the original surprised you sometimes. They really need to go back talk with the fans and learn what is fun about tactical turn based strategy games. New ideas are welcome but not at the expense of old ones. People saying that they would be made fun of if they just released the same game again with better graphics... perhaps, but not by me. If the made an exact replica of the old game with new 3d graphics and better sounds and faster gameplay and with all the bugs taken care of I would love it. The issue is the old game is hard to play on newer computers, the DOS version sucks, the Amiga version has the best audio and graphics but you have to play it in an emulator and is slow. The Playstation version is a mix of the Amiga version with better lighting but of course you have to play it with a control pad on an emulator on the PC and it has a game breaking bug where the save file exceed the memory card size. There is no definitive best version they all have flaws. So an major update would be very appreciated. Look how the previous streamlined UFO clones turned out UFO: Aftershock and the series, what a pile of turd. They thought they had better ideas, turned out they didn't. Then you have UFO: Extraterrestrials, better but still a pile of crap, not destructible terrain cheating AI, graphics style that makes my eyes bleed... kill it with fire.
#20 Posted by nailfoot (2377 posts) -

... All publishers are interested in is what is popular currently which sadly is mostly first person shooters and action oriented games...edwardecl

While I agree with a lot of your post (A graphic remake of the original XCOM would suffice for me as well) I don't think I should have to point out that companies strive to produce what sells.

If you (and you may, I don't know) owned a company, you would only want to produce or sell what turned a profit. You could not stay in business producing what does not move. Neither can a game company. It isn't 100% the fault of a game maker that certain games do not sell.

#21 Posted by 00J (120 posts) -

are you crazy, the original was as close to perfect as you can get... Everything was designed perfectly, even the sound effects were perfect! The TU's were the best part of the game because a better solider would have more TU's available which really complemented the ranking system that was in place for the soliders, rookie, squadie etc... 

The stats also made the game better, A brave soldier was less likely to crack under pressure and fear than one with a lower Bravery level. etc...

Of course the stats meant something, that made a solider who they were. That's the cool thing about the original it was detailed and everything did something... Not just decoration.

#22 Posted by MindlessTeef (1392 posts) -

Allow me to add perspective - it's been 200 years since the last X-COM game was made. Times have changed. Enjoy the game while it's around, the next one your grand-kids might be playing.

tiggerlu
200 years! No wonder I feel so old:) And I don't know, I may be the odd one out (wouldn't be the first time), but for me... good solid game design never goes out of fashion!
#23 Posted by stan_boyd (4923 posts) -

are you crazy, the original was as close to perfect as you can get... Everything was designed perfectly, even the sound effects were perfect! The TU's were the best part of the game because a better solider would have more TU's available which really complemented the ranking system that was in place for the soliders, rookie, squadie etc... 

The stats also made the game better, A brave soldier was less likely to crack under pressure and fear than one with a lower Bravery level. etc...

Of course the stats meant something, that made a solider who they were. That's the cool thing about the original it was detailed and everything did something... Not just decoration.

00J
perfect? I can't count the number of cheap deaths i had because my ship landed close to an alien that would then toss a grenade into my ship or mind control one of my units and have him toss a grenade or fire a rocket killing my whole squad before I even got to do anything.
#24 Posted by ChickenHawk07 (486 posts) -

It seems to me that most of the people posting here have not played Enemy Unknown and are only trolling for comments. Play the full game and then make your decision. Not having TUs is a blessing in disguise. If you want the old game, graphically updated, search Kickstarter and XCOM Clone. They're almost done and ready to ship. It'll be for PC and Mac. Now either play Enemy Unknown or please stop typing nonsense. 

#25 Posted by drwaldy (6 posts) -

[QUOTE="Kevin-V"]

Most of the complaints in this thread just have no basis in reality ...

MooncalfReviews

 

Bollocks they don't. No stats? No time units? 6 man squads? Those are game ruining things. 3 of the best things in the original, ruined.

 

No they aren't. I consider myself a vet of the original, I've probably put in 500+ hours into it over the last 15 years or so. There ARE stats, just not quite the same stats as the original. There is editable inventory. And now there are abilities that make each solider unique in his/her effectiveness. You can create two very different soliders of the same class. 6 man squads are perfect for the size of the maps - any bigger and it would be too easy to beat each mission. Hell even with 6 it's too much. It creates a whole new layer of strategy that you need to use in order to beat missions and makes each move very tense and nerve racking.

You sound like you haven't played the game at all, or just the hand holding tutorial. After spending a couple hours with the actual game, any of these issues become moot points.

#26 Posted by dzimm (4651 posts) -

I mean, Firaxis also made Civ V - a game that dumbed down from its predecessor in great amounts just to create a more approachable game.admiral_picard

I would have to disgree with this. They made the game more "approachable" by bringing a lot of the depth to the surface where it was easier to get to and making the game overall less inscrutible without eliminating any of the complexity of the underlying systems. The initial release may have been lacking some key features, but the Gods and Kings expansion puts it on at least equal footing with Civilization IV: Beyond the Sword but with vastly improved combat.

I get a little tired of this "They didn't make it exactly the same as before; therefore, it's dumbed-down" mentality.

#27 Posted by branes (12 posts) -

13:44:21

You can be as tired of hearing it as you want, but it's still dumbed down, at least the tactical is.

I'm not saying this is true of you, but those who don't care about the changes are the ones who claim to not have liked the original game much to begin with, so frankly, I don't care what they think. They aren't the real demographic of the XCom series. And that's where this game fails. It stoops to the lowest denominator of the gaming public, rather than the highest which Microprose games ALWAYS did. The developers of this game aren't really targetting the older XCom players. They're targetting younger guys who expect fast paced, simple games without having to think too much. This is fine, just don't call it XCom because it's not. This game is nowhere near any of the 3 original XCom titles, in quality, complexity or user control.

It's a highly scripted interactive movie which lets you make a few decisions at the tactical level, but almost none at the strategic level. Not compared to the other games. This one is so dumbed down that it's to XCom what Diablo is to Skyrim. Even the aircraft tactical situation is ridiculous..you get to abort, that's it. No choice in how to attack, what weapon to use..oh wait, you only have one. And the game isn't dumbed down? Who are you trying to fool?

There were certain aspects of the 3 original XCom games that made them what they were:

1. Time units: Time units allowed you to micromanage every step of your turn. Those who think this was tedious shouldn't have been playing a turn-based tactical game. That's what made them what they were. This was the case in virtually every turn-based tactical game. Even Apocalypse gave the option of time units or real time movement.

2. Base design. Even your first base was able to cover a large portion of the world. In this game it covers one or two countries.The idea that in the 21st Century, radar cannot detect a UFO is ridiculous. Why does a satellite need to be there. Ok. let's assume it does. Why should it take a state of the art manufacturing facility, that can manufacture a dozen laser rifles virtually instantly, 20 days to manufacture a satellite. In 20 days, half the world will have gone crazy!! It takes longer to manufacture the freaking satellite than the facility to track it with. This is an example of contrived difficulty that doesn't fit with reality.

3. Control. The original games gave you complete control of your army. What ship they would use, what squad they would be in, what weapon they would use, what accessories they'd carry. And mods even allowed you to place them in the order you wanted them to be in in the Skyranger. This game does all that for you. Isn't that nice? NO, It's not. I WANT control back. A four man squad whose specialties are controlled by the game may be ok for another game, but not one with the name XCOM.

I'm a former Marine 'Nam vet. I carried at least 4 grenades, 4 to 6 clips, cigarettes, munchies, and sometime had bandoliers of M60 ammo thrown over my shoulder for the machine gunner. And this game wants to give you one auxiliary slot? Give me a break. This isn't a tactical combat game. It's a console abortion. Tell you what. go back to the drawing board and come up with a real PC version before you dare to call it XCom. I'm sick of PC games which are limited because they're actually designed for consoles. Why weren't there two versions? If I wanted to play a lite version of the game, I'd buy the console version. But when I want the full experience I play PC which isn't limited by 8 buttons.

4. The ability to augment your income by manufacturing items for sale. As far as I can tell, that no longer functions. With only one base you can only research or manufacture one thing at a time. That's extremely limiting.

From what I can see of this game, it's a programmed to fail scenario. You're scripted to be beaten. It allows the AI moves when it shouldn't, such as scattering when one of your units sees them even if it's in the middle of your move, preventing the element of surprise which was so much a part of the original games. One UFO goes undowned and the whole world goes berzerk. What kind of nonsense is this? In the original game it took a long time for UFO activity in an area to negatively affect XCom. In this game you can basically have 4 countries in the red in a little over a month. In fact, as soon as the first medium UFO appears that you can't shoot down.

5. The AI had fog of war also. But in this game, the AI apparently knows where every one of your units is, even if it only moves one square and not in their visual range.

6. When you succeeded at a mission, everyone was happy. In this game, you succeed in one country, 4 others get panicked. You don't have enough resources to control panic everywhere and you can only build so many satellites and tracking facilities. You can't win for losing. Not only do you lose to the aliens, but to the crybaby countries you're trying to protect. That was true in the first game too, but all you had to do was build a base near them and they shut up. You can't do that here. Not early on anyway.

I know it's possible to win the game losing a bunch of countries, but when it's so contrived it feels like futility to keep playing. Scripted failure sucks the fun out of any game. And that's what I feel about this one so far.

Oh, and I've been playing on Normal, not Classic or Ironman. If it sucks this bad on Normal, how bad is it on the higher levels?

This may be a save the world from the aliens game but it certainly ISN'T XCOM.

#28 Posted by i_am_button (41 posts) -

13:44:21

 

I can live with the lousy combat system somewhat, but the strategic game is broken as far as I'm concerned. They shove you into a no win situation and don't give you a way out.

 

 branes

It's winnable.

XCOM is still X-Com in many respects. It presents you with an alien invasion and the tools to repel it. Were talking about two DISTINCLY different games in two very different eras of gaming.

I love "UFO Defense" and "Terror from the Deep." They're both games i consider flawless if not quietly revolutionary.

Before summarizing an arguemnt, i urge everyone to actually complete a FULL playthrough and not rush to judgemnt via demo and reviews.

a few things to consider:

by the time the game fully pans out you get a few added strategic choices:

Soldier class perks

Sodier armors (no, not Titan or Archangel... theres BETTER ones)

Much more developeed Psyionic game.

 

#29 Posted by branes (12 posts) -

I've played over 20 hours and that's long enough to see all the things I mentioned above.

Yes, later on you get better abilities and even more grenades for the Heavy, but with all that, you still have basically 1 auxiliary slot, and 6 team members. It's a fair to midlin' save the world from aliens game, but name aside, it ain't XCom in any way, shape or form that I can recognize any more than UFO:Aftermath was.

#30 Posted by branes (12 posts) -

It's winnable.

XCOM is still X-Com in many respects. It presents you with an alien invasion and the tools to repel it. Were talking about two DISTINCLY different games in two very different eras of gaming.

i_am_button

What you described could be attributed to UFO:Aftermath and it's sequels, UFO: Extraterrestials, UFO:Alien Invasion and all the other XCom clones, many of which are far more XCom-like than this game. But they don't rate the XCom name. They don't have the complexity or feel that made XCom what it was and still is to most of us veterans. This feels nothing like Xcom. It feels like a semi-turn based science fiction 3rd person team shooter with some strategic elements added. It's a completely stripped down version of any of the Xcom games. In fact, sometimes it doesn't feel like a game at all, but like an interactive movie, which I've already stated. I mean seriously, you can't pick up an item from a dead comrade, or give an item to another soldier? You heavy equipment guy gets one shot, and your sniper can't move and shoot in the same turn. You can run your full distance, then prime and throw a grenade all in the same turn, and they dare to call this XCom?

These developers who claim to love and respect the original game have gone out of their way to eliminate every aspect of what made it great in the first place.

As a 3rd person space shooter with some strategic elements, it's ok. But it's doesn't rate the title of the new XCom as far as I'm concerned. It's XCom in name only.

#31 Posted by Zaral_1 (186 posts) -
I was one of the originals that said I hated this game, said it was stripped down, but that was mostly based on the demo. I probably played the original X-com 50 times over with that said I love this game, and it stands up with the originals. The game has be streamlined yes, but it did so in a good way. The core gameplay feels is the same, aliens on classic and impossible are tough and uses strategy. Many of the things, like time units, inventory spaces and storage spaces are very minor added unneeded complexity and have been streamlined into a simpler form or eliminated completely. I for one will not miss them and even multiple bases while cool really only served as another radar to track UFO's. Honestly this game is a true X-com successor the same gameplay is still there, it is challenging and fun. There are somethings i do miss, explosive ammo, the way bullets arched on the original, incendiary ammo, snake men, blaster bombs and base defense. But shazam! it is awesome and if you don't give it a chance I feel sad for you.
#32 Posted by dzimm (4651 posts) -

The developers of this game aren't really targetting the older XCom players.branes

And yet I have heard from a number of old school XCOM fans who think Enemy Unknown is a fantastic game, including GameSpy's Dan Stapleton who gave it a glowing review.

"I consider the 1994 turn-based tactical masterpiece X-COM: UFO Defense to be the single best videogame ever made. Compared directly to that impossibly high standard, Firaxis' 2012 remake, XCOM: Enemy Unknown, does remarkably well. It's a somewhat-simplified version that nevertheless succeeds, particularly on Classic difficulty, in recreating the original's skin-tingling atmosphere, white-knuckle tension, and bottomless tactical depth."

http://pc.gamespy.com/pc/xcom-enemy-unknown/1226328p1.html

So you can't pretend that all XCOM fans are disappointed.  I've never played the original or this game (downloading it now, actually), so I really don't have a horse in this race.  However, when someone says that Enemy Unknown is "dumbed down" like Civ 5 was "dumbed down", that gives me pause and compels me to question the validity of their opinion.  For one thing, I don't consider simplification to be a bad thing in and of itself.  If a game has needless complexity, or a complex system can be presented in a more streamlined way, then simplification is a good thing and can lead to a more focused and engaging experience.  

I would even go so far as to suggest that complexity and "busy work" is not the same as depth.  Chess, for example, is actually a very simple game with rules that can be comprehensively explained on the front side of a single piece of paper with room to spare, but I dare you to claim that it's lacking in depth.  Taking this analogy further, checkers is essentially a more simplified variation of chess, but despite the simplification, it retains tremendous amounts of depth -- and I've known some cutthroat checkers players who would laugh you out of the room if you tried to call it "dumbed down".

If you want to argue that the original XCOM is chess, then would you perhaps allow that Enemy Unknown is checkers?

#33 Posted by i_am_button (41 posts) -

I've played over 20 hours and that's long enough to see all the things I mentioned above.

Yes, later on you get better abilities and even more grenades for the Heavy, but with all that, you still have basically 1 auxiliary slot, and 6 team members. It's a fair to midlin' save the world from aliens game, but name aside, it ain't XCom in any way, shape or form that I can recognize any more than UFO:Aftermath was.

branes

taing away a larger squad, taking away the minutia-intensive micromanagement of items and personal inventory (with this item i actually agree with you, BTW), taking away the "base-building system" in place of satellite and interceptor placement DO, infact, DRASTICLY change the game. and those are just the larger power points. I too grew up on XCOM and its what i consider only 2 original forms: UFO defense and Terror from the deep. Unlike yourself, i felt that all subsequent titles using the license name were doing just that: using the license name with vague if ANY ties to the original. This is a different game. Its NOT UFO Defense. Nor Terror... It's its own game. Personally, i feel it's earned every inch of that license name. Games have changed in the last two decades. Not a judgement on your reply. I think your points are well thought, lucid and well presented. So here's my point in the form of things to consider: What's a better game? San Andreas or GTA IV? Legend of Zelda or Skyward Sword? Metal Gear or Metal Gear Solid? FF III or FF VII? I say this with deepest respect, because despite taking the liberty and speaking for all us "veterans" this is your opinion (which i'm sure many MANY others share with you). I just dont agree. I beckon you. Finish the game. then attempt 1 hour on impossible difficulty. They giveth and they taketh away. It's a re-incarnation. not an incarnation. treat it as it's own thing. and then play a HUMAN opponent.

#34 Posted by alphatango1 (3778 posts) -

I played the orginal and loved it.It was unique game. You have to accept that they will change certain parts to affect improvements. As long as the heart and soul of the game is intact it will be excellent. (Downloading now).

I dont think I have everr played a game which gives you such emotional attachement to your squad. I like the new look for the animations. I hope they havent changed too much of the inventory because customising my squad was a fun.

I think there is a lot of misinformation in the thread. A demo is a demo and not representative of the full game, so dont judge it as such.

#35 Posted by alphatango1 (3778 posts) -

I have played this for a couple of hours now.

Unquestionably it has been very dumb-ed down. The load outs are very basic. Why you only have a squad of 4 is poor. There is Little opportunity for flanking and converging troops together. I cant say I am impressed with it. On the plus side the animation is nice and the graphics are sweet. The combat moves are also good.

I cant help but feel it is shallow and leads you around by the nose.

#36 Posted by stan_boyd (4923 posts) -

I have played this for a couple of hours now.

Unquestionably it has been very dumb-ed down. The load outs are very basic. Why you only have a squad of 4 is poor. There is Little opportunity for flanking and converging troops together. I cant say I am impressed with it. On the plus side the animation is nice and the graphics are sweet. The combat moves are also good.

I cant help but feel it is shallow and leads you around by the nose.

alphatango1
You can get 6 soldier squads through the academy, and why can't you flank? You only need 2 soldiers to perform flanking maneuvers, one in front of the enemy and another circling around.
#37 Posted by alphatango1 (3778 posts) -

Well I used to play with squads that would flank and have different roles and come from various angles of the map. I am talking 10 +.

4 makes no sense. Even 6 is too low. I think there are some great improvements but regrettably their knife has dug too deep.Its Xcom light but is still good but not the game it could  of been.

My score 8.0

#38 Posted by Cirkelinespark (396 posts) -

I'm kinda disappointed now that I tried it. First off, this game is very linear and that's what I hate most about it, there's simply too much hand holding going on.

Any weapon you get through engineering is instantly made...like what the hell? Also there's no ammo clips in the game, only 3 different grenades(no proximity) which also are given to your squad.

1 alien base ...ARE YOU FREAKIN KIDDING ME!!!!!!!!!!!!? Huge letdown.

Alien squads seem to "spawn" rather than being there at the site. And the enemy always know where you are, so forget stealthy approach.

Very scripted combat, for instance, the enemy never open doors, ever. When a pack of aliens are seen, they always get a free move.

And there's a lot of detail missing as well, just to mention one: when a ufo crashes, the alien crew is always alive, no one died from the crash.

 The game is also very short, I'm already at the last mission.

#39 Posted by stan_boyd (4923 posts) -

I'm kinda disappointed now that I tried it. First off, this game is very linear and that's what I hate most about it, there's simply too much hand holding going on.

Any weapon you get through engineering is instantly made...like what the hell? Also there's no ammo clips in the game, only 3 different grenades(no proximity) which also are given to your squad.

1 alien base ...ARE YOU FREAKIN KIDDING ME!!!!!!!!!!!!? Huge letdown.

Alien squads seem to "spawn" rather than being there at the site. And the enemy always know where you are, so forget stealthy approach.

Very scripted combat, for instance, the enemy never open doors, ever. When a pack of aliens are seen, they always get a free move.

And there's a lot of detail missing as well, just to mention one: when a ufo crashes, the alien crew is always alive, no one died from the crash.

 The game is also very short, I'm already at the last mission.

Cirkelinespark
The aliens are there when you land, when you find a group though they are alerted and take cover though they don't actually get a full turn. Also aliens do open doors, I have had many battles where the aliens would retreat out of the buildings where I initially engaged them, or if they were in the streets they would run into buildings, unless maybe you are playing on easy and the AI doesn't open doors on easy or something. Also I have seen 2 alien bases so far, the underground one, and the abduction ship which is big enough to count as a base imo.
#40 Posted by Cirkelinespark (396 posts) -
[QUOTE="Cirkelinespark"]

I'm kinda disappointed now that I tried it. First off, this game is very linear and that's what I hate most about it, there's simply too much hand holding going on.

Any weapon you get through engineering is instantly made...like what the hell? Also there's no ammo clips in the game, only 3 different grenades(no proximity) which also are given to your squad.

1 alien base ...ARE YOU FREAKIN KIDDING ME!!!!!!!!!!!!? Huge letdown.

Alien squads seem to "spawn" rather than being there at the site. And the enemy always know where you are, so forget stealthy approach.

Very scripted combat, for instance, the enemy never open doors, ever. When a pack of aliens are seen, they always get a free move.

And there's a lot of detail missing as well, just to mention one: when a ufo crashes, the alien crew is always alive, no one died from the crash.

 The game is also very short, I'm already at the last mission.

stan_boyd
The aliens are there when you land, when you find a group though they are alerted and take cover though they don't actually get a full turn. Also aliens do open doors, I have had many battles where the aliens would retreat out of the buildings where I initially engaged them, or if they were in the streets they would run into buildings, unless maybe you are playing on easy and the AI doesn't open doors on easy or something. Also I have seen 2 alien bases so far, the underground one, and the abduction ship which is big enough to count as a base imo.

I'm playing on normal. Of all the crash site mission I've been on, the enemy never opened a door. I could hang outside a closed door forever with my entire squad and the aliens wouldn't care. I have seen a squad of 3 chrysalids spawn right next to one of my guys, same thing happened with some mutons on another mission. There is only 1 base...UFO's don't count. :(
#41 Posted by Zaral_1 (186 posts) -
Try playing it on classic, aliens will flank rush and open doors. I was too disappointed when i played normal. classic is pretty rough
#42 Posted by dzimm (4651 posts) -
According to the developers, Classic is really the "proper" game. Normal and below are there to ease new players into the game, and Classic and above are for seasoned players with Iron Man offering the ultimate challenge. The difference between Normal and Classic is more than just hit points since you're no longer given "freebies" like in Normal, and apparently the alien AI plays different if Zaral_1's observations are correct.
#43 Posted by wiouds (5261 posts) -

I enjoy it. I do not think it is dumbed down as much as they took out much of the the cruching. In the older game I ask what can I do with the Time units while in this game I ask mayself what is the best move to make.

#44 Posted by dzimm (4651 posts) -

I'm kinda disappointed now that I tried it. First off, this game is very linear and that's what I hate most about it, there's simply too much hand holding going on.

Any weapon you get through engineering is instantly made...like what the hell? Also there's no ammo clips in the game, only 3 different grenades(no proximity) which also are given to your squad.

1 alien base ...ARE YOU FREAKIN KIDDING ME!!!!!!!!!!!!? Huge letdown.

Alien squads seem to "spawn" rather than being there at the site. And the enemy always know where you are, so forget stealthy approach.

Very scripted combat, for instance, the enemy never open doors, ever. When a pack of aliens are seen, they always get a free move.

And there's a lot of detail missing as well, just to mention one: when a ufo crashes, the alien crew is always alive, no one died from the crash.

The game is also very short, I'm already at the last mission.

Cirkelinespark

A couple of things:

The aliens don't get a free move. It's just a little sequence to add color and make it more interesting than finding the aliens already hunkered down. I like it.

I have seen aliens open doors if it's the most direct path to their objective.

Weapons getting manufactured instantly, eh, I suppose it's an oddity considering the manufacturing time on everything else, but it doesn't really bother me. Maybe they have Star Trek replicators that can create small items.

Different ammo clips... well, I've never played the original so I can't say how it compares, but I'm having trouble imagining how juggling different ammo types adds genuine depth rather than merely piling on the busy work.

I played for several hours last night, and it is my impression that the strident cries of "Dumbed down!" don't have much merit. The game might be simplified to a certain extent, but I don't get the sense that it is simple. There is a difference.

#45 Posted by Cirkelinespark (396 posts) -

[QUOTE="Cirkelinespark"]

I'm kinda disappointed now that I tried it. First off, this game is very linear and that's what I hate most about it, there's simply too much hand holding going on.

Any weapon you get through engineering is instantly made...like what the hell? Also there's no ammo clips in the game, only 3 different grenades(no proximity) which also are given to your squad.

1 alien base ...ARE YOU FREAKIN KIDDING ME!!!!!!!!!!!!? Huge letdown.

Alien squads seem to "spawn" rather than being there at the site. And the enemy always know where you are, so forget stealthy approach.

Very scripted combat, for instance, the enemy never open doors, ever. When a pack of aliens are seen, they always get a free move.

And there's a lot of detail missing as well, just to mention one: when a ufo crashes, the alien crew is always alive, no one died from the crash.

The game is also very short, I'm already at the last mission.

dzimm

A couple of things:

The aliens don't get a free move. It's just a little sequence to add color and make it more interesting than finding the aliens already hunkered down. I like it.

I have seen aliens open doors if it's the most direct path to their objective.

Weapons getting manufactured instantly, eh, I suppose it's an oddity considering the manufacturing time on everything else, but it doesn't really bother me. Maybe they have Star Trek replicators that can create small items.

Different ammo clips... well, I've never played the original so I can't say how it compares, but I'm having trouble imagining how juggling different ammo types adds genuine depth rather than merely piling on the busy work.

I played for several hours last night, and it is my impression that the strident cries of "Dumbed down!" don't have much merit. The game might be simplified to a certain extent, but I don't get the sense that it is simple. There is a difference.

Please go play the original, then come back and we'll talk.
#46 Posted by Niner0 (1601 posts) -

[QUOTE="Cirkelinespark"]

I'm kinda disappointed now that I tried it. First off, this game is very linear and that's what I hate most about it, there's simply too much hand holding going on.

Any weapon you get through engineering is instantly made...like what the hell? Also there's no ammo clips in the game, only 3 different grenades(no proximity) which also are given to your squad.

1 alien base ...ARE YOU FREAKIN KIDDING ME!!!!!!!!!!!!? Huge letdown.

Alien squads seem to "spawn" rather than being there at the site. And the enemy always know where you are, so forget stealthy approach.

Very scripted combat, for instance, the enemy never open doors, ever. When a pack of aliens are seen, they always get a free move.

And there's a lot of detail missing as well, just to mention one: when a ufo crashes, the alien crew is always alive, no one died from the crash.

The game is also very short, I'm already at the last mission.

dzimm

A couple of things:

The aliens don't get a free move. It's just a little sequence to add color and make it more interesting than finding the aliens already hunkered down. I like it.

I have seen aliens open doors if it's the most direct path to their objective.

Weapons getting manufactured instantly, eh, I suppose it's an oddity considering the manufacturing time on everything else, but it doesn't really bother me. Maybe they have Star Trek replicators that can create small items.

Different ammo clips... well, I've never played the original so I can't say how it compares, but I'm having trouble imagining how juggling different ammo types adds genuine depth rather than merely piling on the busy work.

I played for several hours last night, and it is my impression that the strident cries of "Dumbed down!" don't have much merit. The game might be simplified to a certain extent, but I don't get the sense that it is simple. There is a difference.

Well, the aliens really do get a free move. If you throw a Battle Scanner (or whatever it's called) into the fog of war, and spot enemies, you can throw 'nades at them before they disperse into their later positions. Well, I don't really know if this is them getting a free move or the player getting a cheap chanec to deal som damage (especially if they are standing next to explosives). And as for the "enemis spawninw in" complaint, only some enemies spawn in (like Cyberdisks, and sometimes, Thin Men and Floaters). The others are almost always on the map when the game starts, which is why the Battle Scanner is so useful.

#47 Posted by jlwood830 (171 posts) -

Well said.  I'm playing the actual game and believe me it's great... a lot of fun.  In fact it's so much fun that I started an Iron Man game last night and I don't like losing a soldier that I've not only grown accustomed to, but ranked up and customized.  Too bad that doesn't keep them from dying from a stupid mistake (so far, so good ;-).  All you naysaysers really should check this game out.  I think you're going to be very pleasantly surprised despite the negative, unwarranted, preconceived notions some of you got from that less than stellar demo.

#48 Posted by jlwood830 (171 posts) -
And the "well said" was for aroberts7969. This reply system is starting to get a little challenging. :-)
#49 Posted by dzimm (4651 posts) -

[QUOTE="dzimm"]

[QUOTE="Cirkelinespark"]

I'm kinda disappointed now that I tried it. First off, this game is very linear and that's what I hate most about it, there's simply too much hand holding going on.

Any weapon you get through engineering is instantly made...like what the hell? Also there's no ammo clips in the game, only 3 different grenades(no proximity) which also are given to your squad.

1 alien base ...ARE YOU FREAKIN KIDDING ME!!!!!!!!!!!!? Huge letdown.

Alien squads seem to "spawn" rather than being there at the site. And the enemy always know where you are, so forget stealthy approach.

Very scripted combat, for instance, the enemy never open doors, ever. When a pack of aliens are seen, they always get a free move.

And there's a lot of detail missing as well, just to mention one: when a ufo crashes, the alien crew is always alive, no one died from the crash.

The game is also very short, I'm already at the last mission.

Cirkelinespark

A couple of things:

The aliens don't get a free move. It's just a little sequence to add color and make it more interesting than finding the aliens already hunkered down. I like it.

I have seen aliens open doors if it's the most direct path to their objective.

Weapons getting manufactured instantly, eh, I suppose it's an oddity considering the manufacturing time on everything else, but it doesn't really bother me. Maybe they have Star Trek replicators that can create small items.

Different ammo clips... well, I've never played the original so I can't say how it compares, but I'm having trouble imagining how juggling different ammo types adds genuine depth rather than merely piling on the busy work.

I played for several hours last night, and it is my impression that the strident cries of "Dumbed down!" don't have much merit. The game might be simplified to a certain extent, but I don't get the sense that it is simple. There is a difference.

Please go play the original, then come back and we'll talk.

Oh, wonderful, an elitist response.  :roll:

#50 Posted by dzimm (4651 posts) -

Well, the aliens really do get a free move. If you throw a Battle Scanner (or whatever it's called) into the fog of war, and spot enemies, you can throw 'nades at them before they disperse into their later positions. Well, I don't really know if this is them getting a free move or the player getting a cheap chanec to deal som damage (especially if they are standing next to explosives).Niner0

Honestly, that sounds like it's probably an intended advantage of the Battle Scanner, to be able to get the drop on them before they can scamper for cover.