The Point - The Lost Art of Replaying Levels

A weekend of playing Metal Gear Solid V: Ground Zeroes has reminded Danny that campaign length isn't the baseline for value, and how replaying levels can be a lot of fun.

Discussion

213 comments
adrianlev
adrianlev

I think that most FPS games are expected to tell some form of story (because we're pretty much role playing in that perspective).  A story that's eight times (at least) shorter than the story we were expecting to experience is, thus, crapper.  Some other genre's (fighting, puzzle, driving, etc) get away with it because their value is in how long it takes people to master their varied challenges.  


So you either need to be a game that has fun, varied, usually competitive challenges that take ages to master and that's the point, or be a game that tells a long, engaging, immersive story  (you could be brave and try and be both, but then quality becomes more important than length.  E.g. Portal). 


Which team is Ground Zeroes on?

nyran125tk
nyran125tk

as he was playing Half Life it just reminded me, how  amazing half life is, but how completely dumbed down everything is now. Half Life 1 was brutal and although the levels were linear, you never felt trapped in a corridor. You were always made to think in every part of the level, so you didnt really notice how linear it was.


How times have changed. A linear level in a game now, actually tells you how to get to the END of the corridor lol. Thats a bad joke.


Back then you just had to work it out, but now it will literally have tips and hints and icons alll over the screen just to tell you to go 2 metres that way.

lampboy
lampboy

I generally don't replay stuff. If I do It's usually after a couple of year of playing the original game.

MonocleOwl
MonocleOwl

Mark of the ninja encourages you to replay levels, and I'm sure there are others that do it as well.

snaketus
snaketus

There's so many games on my plate atm, so shorter experiences are just welcome. Replaying levels and games also can be fun if level design is good enough. So many games, so little time in my hands. This leads now days to fact I choose shorter experiences over the very lengthy ones like most rpgs. I just wish PS4 version cost same as PS3 version. 10€ more just, because it's on newer console. That's bullshit!

Gazz_mann
Gazz_mann

Hahahaha Nice Episodes, interesting points. I think this VR stuff in terms of strapping a 2 small TVs onto our faces is a fade, mostly likely not going to appeal to most gamers (or be like the Wii, Buy it, play for a month then it will collect dust on a shelf) and probably a massive health risk, it will cause all types of neck problems.

I don't find it impressive what soever. I want Real VR where my conscience is downloaded into a digital world ie. SAO, Log horizon, .Hack.

edgardpoe
edgardpoe

Dany, goddammit, learn how to throw a knife! now many times man!

xeis-net
xeis-net

Love replaying levels, I will be replaying Dark Souls II for months (I am sure), but at the moment only 30 hours in and not very far through tbh.  This is the market Ground Zeros is released into. I am sure it will find its audience, I am obviously not the intended market.

gameofthering
gameofthering

I rather play an amazing short game than a long drawn out boring one.

Coco_pierrot
Coco_pierrot

I replayed most of my games multiple times but I must say that with trophies and acheivement ... it kind of kill replay value.


In the past you could unlock things in the game and so you could try to unlock a special ability sooner or maybe it would take you multiple play through to collect everything and give you a nice bonus for doing it. Now you would have a stupid trophy and nothing else.


On PS3 I replayed GOW3 until I had every trophies, same with FF13 and FF13-2 otherwise I haven't replay any of those games ... Meanwhile I replayed Persona 4 3 times, I replayed MegaMan 9 and 10 numerous times and I also replayd 2 times in a row Final Fantasy Tactics focussing on different jobs.

drpep14
drpep14

just done the kojima side mission, was fun finding new ways for him to be killed

kidflash2000
kidflash2000

I will say this, New game+, and collectables are NOT the way to talk me into playing a game or levels again. Nothing annoys me more than having to try and collect 3000 items to beat a game.

Mademan033
Mademan033

Ah, replaying levels. I remember constantly replaying single missions from the original Hitman games, Interstate '76, and Duke Nukem 3D, among many others. I think this whole concept has been replaced by the online multi-player phenomenon, given that in modern single player games it can be difficult to isolate a single segment to replay out of the whole experience. if people are going to play a "mission", they want to do it within the boundaries of a story, and not disrupt the flow of the roller-coaster, and all of its Hollywood production values and carefully crafted plot twists that give the mission its context. if players simply want to kill some time they want to do it online in the company of others, where things like Half-Life's reactive AI are easier to find, or in indie games where 'pick up and play' game mechanics are more abundant than intricate plots and cinematic cut-scenes.   

papapico619
papapico619

Sounds like somebody received a paycheck from Hideo Kojima! Or he is a retarded fan boy! Watch angry joes review of ground zero! That is the logical responce. Kojima got away with this rip off because he knew there were retarded fan boys willing to pay thousands out their asses to play anything metal gear! Stop destroying gaming by supporting crap and making up excuses!

R-i-c-h-a-r-d
R-i-c-h-a-r-d

Well done Danny! The Point is easily the best show on jesspot

abcdefgabcdefgz
abcdefgabcdefgz

You can play any game for hundreds or thousands of hours but most people generally have more fun playing through new content the first time. So yeah you can replay a game a ton, but the length and quality of that does matter

jagcivtec
jagcivtec

Loved replaying missions in Peace Walker.  

yearssomuch
yearssomuch

Quite frankly, people who run their mouths about GZ being 'too short' when they haven't played it are idiots. I know it's easy for anyone who hasn't played it to hear a comment like that and think "Oh, he's just trying to rationalize his crappy purchase", but really, the replay value on GZ is quite high. I've spent at least 15+ hours playing all of the missions, then playing them again, then playing them some more. You know why that is? Because it's goddamn FUN.

This is what people are seeming to ignore about all of this. The game is just fun, and as Danny said, the gaming community these days seem more concerned with longevity in terms of playing it from start to finish.

I think everyone was concerned when they found out just how short the game was, but anyone I've talked to that's actually played it has loved it, myself included. It's a miniature sandbox of sorts that shows off the MGSV engine, and it's absolutely everything I expected it to be, and more. I've, in fact, enjoyed my purchase far more than I expected to, and I have also played it far more than I expected to.. and I will continue to play it frequently until Phantom Pain drops.

theprismhead
theprismhead

Release MGSGZ on PC finally, so I can pirate it. That's an appropriate price for a demo.

WR_Platinum
WR_Platinum

Good video. This is what some people don't understand or just dont want to understand. Its replay value is high, which easily replaces the main campaign. Plus, it was known that the game was going to be short awhile back, but filled with details for you to explore. 

littlegoodson
littlegoodson

For me the replay value of GZ makes it well worth the money.  For those saying it's a demo down to length,  I've already spent longer in it than 2 full play throughs of ICO (a full price game & genuine masterpiece).


But I do have to say that releasing GZ now feels a little like a way for Konami to promote the Fox Engine to potential suitors.

SaintsRowLA
SaintsRowLA

Great show Mr. O'Dwyer,


I agree with you on this game 100%.

A couple of details to add:

--The better you play this game, the higher the score you get and more missions and stuff becomes unlocked--on Normal and Hard difficulties.


--Some people think this game only has one mission.  Maybe if you play the game wrong and run and gun and kill everyone, you'll get the lowest score and maybe never unlock the other missions and stuff.


--The scoring system:

Points for the amount of time you complete the mission.

Deductions for kills

Deductions for triggering reflex mode/being spotted (by human or camera)

Deductions for alerts triggered

Deductions for retries

Deductions for lots of other stuff.


--In this game, people you knock out can come back to conscious by themselves over time or revived by other enemies.


--It's easy to miss the other missions:

I didn't see the triangle arrow above and below the main mission until I beat the main mission three times.  I thought there was just one mission based on all the news previews.


--You can have more fun playing 30 minutes of hockey (NHL 14) than in 5 hours of Skyrim.  Length isn't everything.  Longer games can contain a lot of fat: drudgery and boredom in between the fun parts.


Fairbrethees
Fairbrethees

Gears of war judgment had a fantastic scoring system. If I had my way, I would happily have it implemented into all suitable games! Muhahahaha! Stick your cinematic nonsense up your nose!

imm_84
imm_84

Danny .. you rock! 

Pvt_Vasili
Pvt_Vasili

Thank you Danny for making these shows, I enjoy every one of them. I also like to replay levels, and whole games if they're really good, I know by heart almost every level in Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory, HL2, FEAR, STALKER SHOC and so on.

Jay2528
Jay2528

I have always enjoyed replaying games, especially if they are great games. I remember doing multiple speed runs for each of the old Resident Evil games when I was younger. I may not do many speed runs anymore but I still enjoy replaying games, either for the fun of it or to earn Trophies and Achievements.

battlefront1943
battlefront1943

First, for all the fans you can stop reading...  Although liking Kojima's ideas, I'm sadly not a MGS fan.  I've certainly tried, but to no avail.  It always just seemed like an interesting idea box with too many cluttered menus.  Anway...


I love replayable levels, but I don't particularly care for what I'm seeing with MGS:GZ.  I enjoy replayable levels that have "locked content" which can only be opened, acquired, or traversed after having accomplished a certain skill, move, or score in the previous playthrough (ie CASTLEVANIA LORDS OF SHADOW to name another Kojima).  Allowing multiple playthroughs where everything is open/available on relatively small, mundane maps just seems a drag.

The games Danny sites might be great to replay levels, but...  the games are much, much, much longer than MGS:GZ.  MGS:GZ is essentially one level from what I gather...?


As for MGS:GZ, I don't think Kojima would have released this without pressure.  It just seems too much like a paid demo.

Zarkhaine
Zarkhaine

I haven't played Ground Zeros, but they way people are talking about the mission structure and replay value reminds me of the first Crysis game (especially the first half of the game). That had the same principle of giving you the freedom and the tools to complete objectives however you chose. I've replayed that game numerous times trying different tactics, weapons and even just different routes. I remember one part where you have to find your way into a enemy base/complex, and it's really fun to try and sneak in all stealth-like, or just blast your way in by blowing everything up. Great fun. Shame they got rid of that freedom in the second game. Crysis 2 just felt like an on-rails shooter - nothing special at all.

The-Neon-Seal
The-Neon-Seal

I'm onto my second play-through of second son and even though the wonder has gone from it, it's still just as fun, if not more so, because now I've had hours of practice with the ability sets -plus doing the evil playthrough I can go for all out destruction!

skootbootz
skootbootz

Let's not forget that the original Resident Evil games could be beat in 2 hours and we have a whole crowd of people complaining that Resident evil needs to go back to it's roots which would mean a return to a fixed camera and 2 hour long story campaign. Not to mention the original titles had little replay value, except for the alternate basically the same campaign.

skootbootz
skootbootz

Nosgoth now available on steam early access!!

docsavage1975
docsavage1975

Danny.... did you forget to pack your shears when you left for the States as you need a hair cut. Apart from that another great show. 

ringringabel
ringringabel

i'm having tons of fun replaying ground zeroes on ps4, i haven't even beat all the side missions yet nor have i tackled the hard difficulty and i've already put at least 8 hours into the game easily. 

hornspiller
hornspiller

Is Snake Plissken the main character in Metal Gear Solid?

acer86
acer86

@yearssomuch if you think only people who haven't played GZ say it's too short are the one's who didn't even play it, than you're an even bigger idiot. 

You can get 15+ hours on any game if you want, that doesn't mean that one mission should cost $30 just cause it has Kojima Productions and Konami logo on it.

So you're justifying this demo costing $30 just cause "it's goddamn fun"? ahahhahaha 


Good for you if you'll play this for a year and half until TPP comes out, that doesn't mean everyone should and will, and that everyone else is happy with it for the price they payed. 

And i'm not talking about me and people who follow every news and knew that it's short, i am talking about average people who just go in the store and buy what they see on the shelves, not everyone knows what's inside the box when they buy a game, or a demo in this case.

And just because maybe to you $30 isn't that much for a "game", that doesn't mean that it isn't to anyone, and just cause you or whoever can afford something easily, that doesn't mean the price is right and justified.

This stunt could set a dangerous precedent to any other game developer and publisher in the future, and some people just don't seem to get that.


This is just one mission, a demo. Period.

yearssomuch
yearssomuch

@theprismhead So you haven't played it, yet you have no problem labeling it as a 'demo'? People like you are what's wrong with the gaming industry lately, particularly the gaming community. Too many know-it-all's who truly know nothing about what they're speaking of.

s2i2p2i2o
s2i2p2i2o

@WR_Platinum  You are really trying to justify a 1-2 hour game for 30 bucks? I've played through every splinter cell game over 10 times, so I get the replayablility thing, but come on! 30 dollar for ONE MISSION?! It doesn't matter if it's Hitman, Splinter Cell or Metal Gear, that is just way too much to spend on such a small amount of "game". If people accept this then within 5-10 years buying a game will be the same as buying a movie. 

s2i2p2i2o
s2i2p2i2o

@littlegoodson  So for you it would be ok for studios to stop making "real" games and just start making things like this? That's what's gonna hppen if people accept this. Like they said in the video, before we didn't pay for maps, extra weapon or costumes, but people accepted DLC as a thing and now we're stuck with it. 

yearssomuch
yearssomuch

@battlefront1943 If you'd actually play it, you'd realize that it's not a paid demo at all. The majority of gamers crying on the internet about GZ haven't touched it, and in fact, know absolutely nothing about it.

sudarsanvrs
sudarsanvrs

@battlefront1943  you are criticizing the game based on just some assumptions like calling it a drag and from couple of video, play the game by hand before judging it. castlevainia is not a sandbox GZ is, you can play and experiment with the game the way u wanted which is not possible in castlevania. Both games are replayable but for different reasons, one is offering replayabilty by let you  find collectibles and win trials and another one isis by letting you master a game

SnakeEyesX80
SnakeEyesX80

@hornspiller No, just a name Solid Snake used in MGS2. Snake Plissken is a character from Escape for NY & Escape from LA.

garl
garl

There's actually like 6 different missions in the game...

s2i2p2i2o
s2i2p2i2o

@yearssomuch @theprismhead  We know it's one mission that is pretty short, and could just as well have been the opening mission of a game comming out later. What more do we need to know to classify it as a demo?

Gazz_mann
Gazz_mann

@s2i2p2i2o @theprismhead No its not, its one setting with many missions, difficulties and collectibles. You too have not played it, shut up untill you know what you're talking about.

hornspiller
hornspiller

@battlefront1943 Thats pretty cool. Snake Plissken was pretty bad ass. I have never played the MG games



battlefront1943
battlefront1943

@hornspiller @SnakeEyesX80Although Kojima denies it now, Snake is loosely based on Snake Plissken.  In fact, during the series you'll see Solid Snake name himself Iroquois Pliskin (in Metal Gear Solid 2: Sons of Liberty).  That made it pretty obvious.