The Point - Depressing Gender Wars
Danny wonders how both armies stand after the 2013 misogyny wars, and asks why it has anything to do with getting Depression Quest on Steam.
Great piece, Danny. I'm gonna share this video via Twitter. My friends list only consists of a small group of people I know personally in the area where I live but they'd really appreciate this.
danny once again u have a bad ep of the point. u had 2 before this. when gamespot takes over and tells u to get up us and preach to us. no thanks.
now on this ep i dont think all the hate she was getting was because she was female, some yes but i would say more would of been cause of depression. u know people dont like hearing about feelings on the internet. and the other part steam had already past on it twice. so dont tell us all the hate is because she is female. gamespot preach somewhere else its even in your guidelines. no agenda
Titles are not necessary its the stuff which matters http://bit.ly/19qugfn
Huh...this is probably what guys working in the hair dressing industry faced in the 80s...It's normal and itll grow old by the turn of the decade. But tell you what, people arent pised about women creating games, theyre pissed about all this hallaballo about 'female representation' topic that is being brought up so damn frequently....when no one gives two fucks. Its equevalent to if websites started picking up chick flicks and analysing and debating them on incorrect depiction of men.
Imo its not even women picking up this moronic topic of female depiction....(my gf loves killer is dead), its actually the game related websites and other media....seems they have run out of things to talk about.
Now about Depression Quest, it seems like a great game...but such a unique game will experience some major hiccups....its how things work...people nowadays dont have the time or mental willingness to read a paragrapg...and this is a text based game so dont expect it to match cod sales. So it wont be that popular....but i thing that wasnt the creators intention anyways.
Also i fail to understand why some trollers comments are considered as the gaming community's opinion....its as all the gaming websites looked at the community as some ignorant louts....and think of themselves as the keepers of high art...
Everyone just needs to chill the fuck out and play videogames till 4am imo.
if it wasn't for random encounters i wouldn't have found out about this game until now. I miss random encounters
Ughhh, the world would be a better place if games could just be games and not some platform about "gender equality" kinda sick of seeing this brought up all the time honestly. Over the years we have had plenty of games with strong female leads who weren't so because of their bra size. and yeah there are games where the sole point is to flash as much flesh as one can get away with. ok? fine whatever, chalk it up to creative freedom. Now as for women designing games, one has to realize that the internet is full of morons, and trying to change minds that have been molded by the status quo is a monumental undertaking. One has to grow a thick skin about it all, instead of focusing on the negative, just pursuit the work you love. Let that speak for you rather than worrying about being accepted based on your gender. I also find it stupid that there are people saying this isn't a game, they must be the 20 something and youngers who weren't around during the time when a lot of pc games were text based adventures.
For all the mature experiences gamers desire in games, they still come out with some pretty immature responses when it comes to gender equality. My only suggestion is that we continue to make a stand, one person at a time. Be the change you want to see in the world!
I tried depression quest and was incredibly bored...maybe I don't suffer from depression, I kind of agree it doesn't belong on Steam because I don't consider text adventures to be video games, in that case you could classify choose your own adventure books as games, which they aren't...they are books. To me it has nothing to do with her gender, and bringing it up almost feels like playing the sex card. That being said, I don't follow any of this stuff and have no idea what kind of stuff people have been saying to this developer.
I tried out depression quest a few days ago... it turned out pretty engaging, I got hooked to it, and I ended it too. It was a very enlightening experience, taught me alot about depression it self and how it gets worser if not handled properly.
They should make more games like this one.
Thanks Danny for introducing this great text adventure.
You the best. :)
Some people are shocked that in this day and age we still have to fight sexism and all these other things. The problem is, humans are animals and will forever be fundamentally stupid (even if capable of being very intelligent). It requires efforts to think and reason what is right or wrong, even more to discriminate between all the shades of grey. It's much easier to rely on guts' feelings. Education has to be done continually. Thanks for the video Danny.
It sucks that people are often incredible assholes. Some Web users forgo amicable disagreements more often that not. I wish it didn't happen the way it does. I would feel pleased to see positive change in what's so prevalent today. That said, I don't care that the creator is a woman. Some might, but I'd argue most don't. I didn't see an outrage over Kellee Santiago's work on Journey.
The reaction she is receiving really sucks. No doubt about it. But I still don't buy that her story deserves anymore attention than the rest of the [harshly] flamed. This video begs the question. If this game was perceived favorably, would it affect "Gender Wars?" I don't buy it for a second because "Gender Wars" would still be a relative non-issue. I argue most guys wouldn't be awestruck to learn a woman made their favorite game. It doesn't matter. I don't think sane people care.
Danny said the issue but merely as an argument to a conclusion I don't hold. The issue is that people are assholes. That's the premise of the issue, and I argue that's the "war."
It's pretty ridiculous we're still having to speak about this kind of acts, in this age of information and equality...While the game itself isnt really an amazing masterpiece, it deserves the respect due to any emotive, handcrafted work. And of all things, the animals criticizing it do it because the creator is a woman? I dare say your co-creator was a woman too, so please stop thinking like retarded cavemen and either clean your act and rethink your position in life, or exile yourself to a zoo island where our descendants can go and throw peanuts at you, while deriding the evolutionary offshoot of humanity you comprise.
As usual on this particular topic, some people are actually justifying and/or denying sexism. The video clearly states the developer did indeed receive sexist emails and tweets. Exactly which part of this is made up or excuses? The gaming industry and community will never move forward as long as this backward way of thinking exists.
Just played through the entire thing. It represents depression very well and I found myself really caring for and identifying with my character. My one complaint is the end just comes out of nowhere. In my play through my character was making positive steps in their life and beginning to open up and then suddenly there was a time skip and the period in between was described as being rather terrible. Not a good way to inspire people to get treatment.
I'd suggest that the game is unfinished and I'd like them to expand upon this so that there is light at the end of the tunnel even if you do suffer some set backs along the way. If they managed that then I'd consider it a good game.
Caroline Petit degrades game scores in her reviews due to her personal politics and her opinion of what a female role is.
Danny O'Dwyer alleges sexism because it can't possibly the fact that a woman's game isn't wanted or commercially viable- it can only be her gender.
i'm sensing a pointless, slavishly PC trend here....
Great episode Danny! I'll definitely check out the game, but as someone who got burned by depression before I sometimes hesitate with these types of games for fear I may relieve memories from that difficult time.
Dear Danny, I have an idea, we need a show to explain why horror games by big name companies (cough capcom) are just not even horror anymore and why indie developers create such better atmospheres and gameplay when speaking strictly in the horror genre, and maybe why everyone has forgotten about this altogether because lets face it, we haven't seen a good horror game by a big company in a long time, while indies are killing it, have they given up altogether? or might there be something interesting that they're working on?
Well said, Danny. The Internet has raised a generation of dickheads, and many of them, sadly, hang out at Gamespot. An unbelievable amont of utter bollocks is spouted here each and every day.
You had to know making this video would alienate you from the Gamespot community. I'm sure most of the comments below weren't surprising to you.
My only complaint with the video is that you don't really delve into any of the issues surrounding the "Gender Wars."
If you're going to jump off a cliff, at least make sure it's worth it. I'm not sure you've changed many opinions, unfortunately. I'm guessing the short-length format of The Point is the culprit, but still.
Someone (especially on this website) who's voice is heard needs to go all out on this subject. They need to be aggressive, have irrefutable evidence, and just thoroughly explain why sexism is a problem in the gaming industry.
Do it, Danny!
The limey says; "It's an interesting looking game, and we need more of those".
In fact no, it doesn't look interesting. It looks like a Wiki page that requiring you to click "links" to play it. Know when I was doing that? Back during The Last Half of Darkness in 1989. It isn't new or innovative; it's a cheap, boring method of "gaming" that only seems unique because it hasn't been around for 25 years (for good reason).
Misogyny wars? Give me a break. More like the bogus liberal/Carolyn Petit "war on women" narrative. If this fails, because it's a horrible idea. If a women is the lead dev on Grand Theft Auto 6 and it's a good game, something tells me people won't hate on the fact a woman made it.
I like games the way i like juice if i take a sip and its a plesant experience, im in! Il have a look and recomend to a few friends.
I'm quite a fan of visual novels so I'm going to share my thoughts about this quickly.
Visual novels are NOT popular.
The majority of visual novels are usually excluded by the majority of the gaming community all around the world and it is rare for a visual novel to sell well even if it is one of the best ones in the genre. Only a few are commonly known across the internet (Type Moon visual novels, Clannad, Cross Channel, Katawa Shoujo, etc.) and there are even fewer known of hybrid ones like the fighting game/visual novel games like Melty Blood.
Visual novels are commonly regarded as excellent or bad in which the majority of the community usually agrees unlike normal video games with the exception being ones specifically for guys or girls in dating ones as they usually have different themes (and even then, the guys that read them still like them).
I have no idea what these people were thinking but visual novels tend to be a hit or a miss whether they are free or not. No one is going to waste their time with a story that doesn't interest them or characters that don't feel alive to the reader. It doesn't matter on how you try to sugar coat it, the point of a visual novel is to give a good story and if it doesn't give that then it isn't worth reading. It's as simple as that.
This is just another excuse of a developer of a game that she blames it all on sexism that she didn't succeed and is now acting like a complete child that things didn't go like she wanted them to. There are quite a few female developers that are excellent in their games and in the visual novel genre so this is no excuse for failure.
If she is getting backlash from people, it is most likely from the comments that she wrote or said.
Unfortunately in the gaming community as in other areas of life, there are those who are not simply content to say hey I don't like this, or I am not into this. In fact people who are likely to make such a calm and reasonable post would normally not bother posting at all! as they often do not have strong enough motivation to do so. Where as a significant portion of people who are motivated to post negative comments are often motivated to go far beyond what is reasonable or even relevant. Often taking any opportunity to attack anything they perceive as a point of sensitivity. You only have to look at the console fanboys to see how far this can go. Beyond even that there is the bullies kicking down sand castles phenomena! some people are just motivated to attack anything they see other people care about or put effort into, because it allows them with relative ease and zero consequence to cause pain which they find empowering. describing these issues as sexism or racism is actually masking the underlying problems of human nature as more often than not the race or gender issue is just a convenient tool and ultimately irrelevant to the abuser. I am not saying there are not issues of race or gender to be resolved, only that what we most often portray in the media as sexism or racism is more often assholeism plain and simple. the problem there is that our discussions come to nothing as we are often having the wrong conversations.
Men and women are not equal, at least until men are able to give birth and women stop bitching. They should both have equality of rights, yes, but nothing more. As to this case, how can someone take this even a bit seriously is beyond me.
While I'm sure what you said correlates to some of the reason why it hasn't gotten greenlighted (greenlit? whatever :P) but frankly not a lot of people are into it. That's really it, man. I can't see myself going through it despite the fact that I sympathize for the creator and want to see games broach new realms of imagination.
Has she sought to do anything else with this idea of hers, whether directly by developing some kind of follow up title or by getting others involved to make it into something more appealing to the people it's trying to help? I recognize she would face a daunting task with that, but even the people it's designed to help (those ignorant of depression or those suffering it in need of solace) are hard-pressed to find themselves attracted to it.
If this was a title that was going someplace, I'd be the first in line to defend her and support her cause.
Look I feel bad for the girl, but I not gonna support a game I am not into. I don't care who you are.
Chick's game was rejected because the game is not good and most importantly NOT what most gamers are looking for out of a game.
...but she couldn't accept that, it can't be the simple fact that gamers don't play to experience depression, they play to avoid it... no, it has to be some fictional form of bias.
Welcome to the "everybody gets a trophy" world the idiots created. It can't be that her product isn't wanted- it's because everyone else is sexist and wrong..... and that's just myopic.
Beyond that.... this vid strikes me as just another attempt to cover for Pettite injecting her personal politics into her reviews.... again it can't be Pettite making the mistake, she gets a gender based excuse- no it's the rest of us.
@Jedi4ce28 wait, so people shouldn't stand up against prejudice? they should just "grow a thick skin against it"? yeah, that will end prejudice pretty soon.
@Psycold I don't understand this "doesn't belong on Steam" thing. Of all the games that are on Steam like Ride to Hell: Retribution, Infestation: Survivor Stories (you might remember it as The War Z), and so on... THIS is what "doesn't belong on Steam"?
Also, Dinner Date, Kentucky Route Zero, Gone Home, and many more are also minimally interactive experiences... yet they're all on Steam too. Should they not be on Steam? Why not? Because YOU don't like them? What about those who do?
Further, You Need A Budget is on Steam. It's not even a game. Does it and the other software on there also fall into the "doesn't belong on Steam" category?
Lastly, who are YOU to decide what "belongs on Steam" and what doesn't anyway? Nobody even said you had to buy it!
@Psycold videogames from 30 years ago were basically text adventures. it was a genre. just because it's outdated it doesn't mean it's not a genre anymore. it's interactive, it needs your input to go on, your actions change the way the story is displayed, then it's a game. not a book.
@Karlinel "I dare say your co-creator was a woman too"
So that's why we should bow down to women and give them respect? Hah! Please, don't make me laugh - that's got absolutely nothing to do with games; and it takes a man to make a baby too, I'm not going to respect any man simply because he can make a baby, so don't think women deserve any respect for that. "And of all things, the animals criticizing it do it because the creator is a woman?" And without your own personal first-hand knowledge of the issue or the people doing the criticizing, just some words from the author of this video on what was happening, you go ahead diss anyone criticizing the "game" by calling them animals - who does that really make the piece of shit. I guess you'd also just go ahead and listen to everything he said if he said there were monkeys living on the moon.
@mav_destroyerAs I read down the comments what appears to be being said by those with a considered brain rather than those monkeys that throw poo at people for fun, is that Danny is miss representing the reason the game did not get the required support. Yes there was sexist abuse, but to say that the game itself was blocked by sexism is considered false and insulting to the steam community as a whole who are now being labels sexist just as they are not into this type of game despite the fact many female developers have had their games green lighted using this system.
@timoteo2k1 if people sent that kind of mails to any unwanted or comercially inviable game, you'd see rather harsh laws for those offenses.
There is a difference between criticising a game you dont like, and calling to the personal phone of the designer and jerking off there, that's what im saying.
"It's an interesting looking game, and we need more of those"
If we did... this one would be selling. The market reigns.
@ExplicitMike That's essentially what he said at the end of the video. Parot :P
@timoteo2k1 I don't think Danny's last name is Pettite.
@timoteo2k1 I don't think (he might have; watched the video some days ago...) Danny said "you should all go and upvote the game"; his anger was not due to the fact that the game was probably not going to be Greenlit (or however you'd call it =P) but that people feel the need to attack the author for it...I enjoyed it, it was helpful, but if it hadn't been I certainly wouldn't go insult and attack the author for it, whether it was on Greenlight or not.
I'm sorry to say we will never end prejudice.. It's all very well thinking that one day we will all live in a homogenised utopian society with no boundaries between race, gender, sexual orientation, etc but it ain't ever going to happen. The very notion of 'equality' is the thing that will keep causing problems, the idea that people are all the same when clearly they are not. You can't dictate what people should think and how they should feel. As above, the best way to combat this is to grow a thick skin. People in general can be assholes, especially on the Internet. The only way this will ever be resolved is if people learn to accept that another person is entitled to their own opinion and rise above letting it bother them. Once people who intentionally set out to upset other people learn that their words have no power or effect, only then might we be able to move forward.
@DigiRave exactly. so sick of that "a woman brought you into this world, respect them". it's like no bitch, my mum did, not every fuckin woman on the planet. every single woman out there doesn't get a free pass to do whatever they like just because one person from their gender carried me for 9 months. doesn't work like that.
i bet you anything the woman that created this "game" did something to provoke people. then as soon as they retaliated, she took what they said and claimed "sexism". probably for publicity, probably to play victim, probably for both. when things are just so one-sided like this video is, i can't help but feel like they left out key elements so everybody sides with his "point" he's trying to make, so he can be seen as a hero that he so desperately wants to be portrayed as.
@DigiRave Have your mom read that comment, and have all your best female friends read it and let them tell you what they think.
@malintenby if black people just grew a thick skin, there would be no luther king, no mandela, no "dia da consciencia negra" ("black awareness day", a brazilian holiday). racism certainly didn't end, but they're much more integrated to the society today than 60 years ago. just ignoring bullies never stops bullying, only awareness and education can slowly make a stand against prejudice.
@MigGui women think they're entitled to more respect than they deserve, for the simple fact of being a woman, not a person.
if you do things that aren't going to ensure your safety in this world, then bad luck to you. you probably did deserve it. the world isn't going to bend to you and your way of thinking "just because". it's a bad world out there. you knowingly take the risk of walking around with a $500 smartphone at night, you still do it anyway, you get mugged, bad luck. simply telling criminals to stop what they're doing because it's bad isn't going to do shit. crime will always exist. there's absolutely nothing we can do about it. you can accept that fact and realise it's a bad idea to go out at night because it's obvious bad things are very likely to happen, or you can continue to get mugged because "well, it shouldn't have happened in the first place so it's not my fault". i don't know how old you are, but you fit right in to this generation of entitlement. you think the world has to bend to you. it doesn't work like that sonny boy.
@biggestnewb blame the victim, clear the culprit. "she deserved to be raped, look at how short her skirt is". "he deserved to get mugged, who walks on the street playing on $500 smartphones at night?". "she probably provoked, and problably called retaliation sexism to get attention".
she most likely didn't provoke anyone, and even if she did, no one deserves what she's been through. "those dudes got my phone number and jerked off into my phone". does that look normal 'retaliation' to you? is that common between beligerant men? how's that not sexism?
just by noting you're sick of hearing women needs to be respected pretty much shows you're a scumbag. women don't need to be respected because your mom has a vagina, but because they're people. and even worse is noting you don't even know what respect is.
@DigiRave again, well said Digi. political correctness is a fucking plague to free thinkers.