Rejecting Modern FPS Design - GS Reakkts to Toxikk Trailer

Jeremy and Aaron react to the Toxikk trailer and discuss if FPS sensibilities of 1999 will retain an audience in 2014.

Discussion

68 comments
too_handsome
too_handsome

Modern FPS? Old FPS???
What is all this non-sense....the whole FPS genre have made MINIMAL changes in the last decade and a half. All that were done was add some random RPG element (classes, character level, etc). It's the same crap it has always been with different skins each iteration with a different name and claiming to be a different "game."

NinjaGaz
NinjaGaz

It's strange that they hint that having no classes is a downgrade. ADDING classes was a downgrade the moment it was introduced!


I hope that they have creativity in the weapons without making them too spammy. I don't see how you can compare the likes of a shock rifle with any "aim down the sights" gun!

valkyr_anubis
valkyr_anubis

I've been playing Unreal Tournament and Unreal games since more than a decade and I'm still not bored nor I have lost interest in this franchise. Even nowadays, this franchise still fascinates me very much, more than any other first-person shooter.


Nevertheless, I'll be keeping an eye on this Toxikk game for sure and let's see how it turns out. Maybe it is a good game or a bad game, but let's just see if they get the job done.


bldgirsh
bldgirsh

How dare you call TF2 a collection simulator! It's a hat simulator.

ninetenduh
ninetenduh

Playing a CoD in 2014 isn't oldschool ? i mean the mechanics and graphics look oldschool. Toxikk is nothing for Wanne be shooter fans that grew up with CoD or BF, its for shooter Fans who grew up with Quake 3 and UT, simple and awesome.

NetBiosError
NetBiosError

The reason people continue to play a game long after release is simple: It's fun. The game itself is its own reward. It's how Counter-Strike has transcended generations so gracefully.


People will stop playing a Call of Duty or a Titanfall or (less so) a modern Battlefield title if there were no reward track because there's a distinct limit to the fun to be had in those games. The formula is extremely simple. There's no depth to the map interactions or the flow and coordination of team movements; there's no depth to the shooting, involving little more than picking the "best" assault rifle and using those iron sights liberally and swiftly; it's run and gun with a reward track, and once people have had enough of the reward track, the core of the game isn't enough to keep people around.

seanwil545
seanwil545

Amazing how they struggle to classify this game.

Toxikk is pretty much for old-school PC shooter fans...plain and simple. It isn't designed for nor marketed toward console gamers who might have come up COD or BF...or still play Titanfall.

Personally, I think Toxikk will miss the mark, UT4 on the other hand?...Total Show Stopper!!! 

jamesbigmac
jamesbigmac

This, along with stuff like Tribes: Ascend, is way more fun than the typical shooters we have currently. I want to see some innovation though, rather than just going back to shooter roots.

Wintereich
Wintereich

I'm pretty excited for this, think I'm going to preorder the "Godlike Package." I have more than a few friends who miss arena shooters as much as I do.

calvintower
calvintower

I haven't been this hype about a FPS since... well... 1999 and the relase of Q3A!

gamefreak215jd
gamefreak215jd

I really like old school over the top arena shooters. Fun weapons and a lot of freedom.

digi_matrix
digi_matrix

After the new Wolfenstein and Shadow Warrior, I'm all about FPS harkening back to the oldschool, which meant for more fun design.

001011000101101
001011000101101

Nothing cooler than purchasing something in 2014 that plays like it was made 15 years ago. Money well spent.

billy19joseph
billy19joseph

PC enthusiasts will love this, I guarantee it 

spartanx169x
spartanx169x

Leveling and 1000 different type of weapons are not needed to make a good  game. If anything it makes the game worse in some ways. It gives advantages to player that spend every waking hour playing the game. Now you can debate if that's fair or not and that's a fair debate. But if you want a game where thousands of people are playing then the more level the playing field I suspect the more people you will have playing , ONCE the game gets established. Would love to play this game on console. I'm very hesitant to play Multiplayer games on PC  because of all the cheating that goes on. yea there is cheating on consoles, but I would say less than 1% of the players cheat where on PC that number is  much higher.  I would guess upwards of 10% or more. I've seen in PC games more times than I can count.  I love to play games on PC, but I just won't play multiplayer shooter games.  With all that said, That game looks awesome. everybody has the same starting weapons and  no special abilities, no perks. just  straight combat.

dominoodle
dominoodle

"Things like Team Fortress 2 when they came out were these fantastic shooters that had a really unique experience and were sort of fast paced and had a lot of that arcadeyness to them but then as soon as it turned into people wearing 16 hats and running around looking like cartoon characters it was no longer the same thing, it was more of like a collection simulator."


Has this guy even played TF2 recently? They didn't change the gameplay at all, they just added character customization. The hats have 0 impact on the gameplay. It's still an amazing game and lightyears better than most shooters coming out these days. Not to mention it's completely free and it gets free content updates all the time. There's a reason why it's still in the top 5 games played on Steam every single day almost 7 years after release. Compare that to CoD (any of them) which isn't even in the top 50 less than a year later.


Progression systems are ruining shooters. The only reason they have them nowadays is to keep the ADD kids interested. People played hundreds of hours of Quake and UT without them. Modern shooters rely on people grinding unlocks over and over and spending as much money as possible before they release their next game 12-24 months later. Buy the game, season pass, weapon skins, voice packs, unlock shortcuts etc... and then do it all again next year cause none of it carries over.


Please Gamespot, never have either of these two make another video ever again. All they did was make me lose even more faith in the games industry.

Ultramarinus
Ultramarinus

Eh, anybody describing Unreal Tournament as chaos isn't really qualified to pass judgment on skill and be introduced as someone 'who plays a lot of shooters'. He sounded like his first shooter experience was CoD MW.

rawkstar007
rawkstar007

"Reakkts?" Please stop with the absolutely dumb play on words. Try to have some grammatical integrity. You're writers. You're aren't blogging here.

ck10304
ck10304

@NetBiosError I respectfully would like you to elaborate on your points more. I don't see how games like cod or bf are inherently less rewarding or "simple" compared to games with no classes and simplified shooting mechanics. No depth to map interactions or team movements? Battlefield is the definition of those terms. I haven't played a whole lot of Quake/UT etc for a long time, I've been curious as to the mass appeal. Essentially, what is the "core of the game" for those types of games and what makes it different (more specifically, better) from more contemporary ones?

Rushaoz
Rushaoz

@001011000101101 It's cooler than buy the same shooter over and over again. More Call of Duty pleez. GTFO.

MoreThot
MoreThot

@spartanx169x Hm.. Or maybe its just that your skill level isn't on par with PC gamers? There is quite a substantial jump in skill from kiddie consoles to PC. Most of the times when console players play on the PC they get their asses handed to them so bad they throw hackusations out like its going out of style. Never going to get better until you play against people better than you. (Not saying you're one of these people. Just generally speaking.)

Gelugon_baat
Gelugon_baat

@dominoodle 

Not everyone is pleased with how Team Fortress 2 has turned out.

Also, Jeremy's remark is about how some content updates for the game turn out to be little more than cosmetic content to whet the appetites of players with completionist streaks.

With that said, I, for one, want opinions like those of Mr. Jayne's. I find them more frank and less accommodating to games which ask for money.

jjaynecbsint
jjaynecbsint staff

@dominoodle Hey, Jeremy here:

I actually play TF2 actively (albeit, not as much as I used to), but I definitely feel like the community has changed quite a bit from launch because of the addition of cosmetic unlocks (i.e. hats.) It's still an amazing game in spite of that, but the difference in the player base's focus has been quite noticeable, in my opinion. My point was that maybe Toxikk has something in the "no frills" formula.


I also agreed with what you said about progression unlocks in the section where I mentioned Titanfall: it's a game with all of the popular ingredients that still bored me after week and has had dwindling player population.

ck10304
ck10304

@rawkstar007 *You aren't blogging here. Expect the same from yourself as you do others. And besides, who cares?

MakoNB
MakoNB

@rawkstar007 - This, coming from a guy who uses the word "RAWK" in his screen name. Such poetic justice. You can't make this shit up. 

spartanx169x
spartanx169x

@MoreThot @spartanx169x Hm , well you are wrong. Nice try though. I can hold my own most all the time if I'm on a decent team. I can't carry a team but I can hold my own. Would you like some links to some websites that specialize in cheating for PC that sell AIMBOTS and crap like that? Do I see cheating in every match I play ? No. But I see it too often. Its not hard to spot if you know what to look for.

dominoodle
dominoodle

@jjaynecbsint @dominoodle I find the TF2 community to be one of the best communities i've experienced in a shooter. Everyone is very laid back and generally friendly. People are more than happy to high five you or conga dance with you. The humor of TF2 allows the game to be super competitive but also have a very friendly atmosphere. That spy may have just backstabbed you but look at that silly camera coming out of his beard! That pyro may have just W+M1'd you to death but his head is a lightbulb and he has a barbecue happening on his back! That demo just sticky spammed you to oblivion but his taunt animation is him raising up a bottle of beer and going WOOOOOOOO!!!! It's funny!


I didn't play a whole lot of TF2 when it came out but all of the goofy stuff they added is a big part of why i love it. TF2 is all about fun. 


And i apologize for the last couple sentences, i just feel very strongly about TF2 and hearing someone talk about it like it's become just a dumb hat collector game is frustrating. Underneath the mountain of hats is still an amazing game.

Gelugon_baat
Gelugon_baat

@MakoNB @rawkstar007 
I agree. Dude doesn't realize the hypocrisy when he made yet another GameSpot-bashing remark.

Habit trumps smarts.

dominoodle
dominoodle

@MakoNB @rawkstar007 The difference is he's a user on a video game site posting in the comments and not a professional journalist posting for the site he gets paid for.

f3kuinth3a55gs
f3kuinth3a55gs

@spartanx169x @MoreThot 10% is a stupidly inflated percentage. I have played competetive FPS's since Return to Castle Wolfenstein and Soldier of Fortune 2 through to now and while there are a few hackers the number would be closer to 1% or less, I am pretty good at every FPS I play and am usualy top or at least in the top 3 of any match I play in pubs (clan matches are of course another kettle of fish), but there are people that are legit that wipe the floor with me and I really thought hacked and later met in person and watched them play and they didn't hack. 

People in the top 5% on PC are just amazing and I have seen legit players get accused constantly and even banned because they are freakishly good, especialy in game modes that have a raidar or very good directional sound (CSS, UAV's in COD) you literally see their playstyle change when a UAV is enabled and they get accused of walling, aimbotting etc. and back in the quake 3 days the twitch reflexes of some players is just insane. Trust me, alot of people you think are hacking, are just really good. 

Again, yes some people hack, but it is a very low percentage and nowhere near the 10% you claim.

jjaynecbsint
jjaynecbsint staff

@dominoodle @jjaynecbsint I totally understand what you're saying. Those sillier elements just detract for me, personally, but I absolutely recognize that is my subjective opinion. And I still love TF2 in spite of it. 

Thanks for the apology. I understand the rage that somebody insulting your favorite game can invoke ;)

Gelugon_baat
Gelugon_baat

@dominoodle 

If you are getting displeased over some other person calling the game out for being a lot about hats, you might want to know that Valve's own developers for this game embraced that joke and had been calling their game a "hat-collecting simulator" for a long time.

Why can't you take that remark in stride, like Valve's own developers?

spartanx169x
spartanx169x

@f3kuinth3a55gs I get it that there are some amazing players on PC.  Fair enough. But my whole point is there are lots of cheaters, enough for me not to play.  If you want to play with them, have it.

dominoodle
dominoodle

@Gelugon_baat There's a difference between affectionately calling the game a hat simulator like Valve does (i do it from time to time as well) and Jeremy calling it a collection simulator as a way to make the game somehow seem lesser than once it was.


His comments in the video didn't make much sense. 


He begins with:

"these fantastic shooters that had a really unique experience and were sort of fast paced and had a lot of that arcadeyness to them" 


And follows it with:

"it turned into people wearing 16 hats and running around looking like cartoon characters, it was no longer the same thing, it was more of like a collection simulator."


It's like he's trying to imply that hats have changed how the game plays. Tf2 is still fast paced and arcadey. The addition of hats did not change that. 


Maybe the community has changed, but that's not what he said in the video.

dominoodle
dominoodle

@Gelugon_baat @dominoodle @MakoNB @rawkstar007 My point is MakoNB was using an ad hominem attack. rawkstar007 criticized the title of the article written by professionals and MakoNB called out his random internet username as if it somehow makes his complaint less valid. Which it doesn't. He just couldn't think of a valid argument so he made fun of his username instead.

Gelugon_baat
Gelugon_baat

@dominoodle 

You say that the addition of hats did not change that, but you happily indulge in high-fiving and conga-dancing, which I should remind you, were designed by the game's own developers.

Team Fortress 2 has changed - it has become even sillier than it was during launch, and unapologetically so.

Gelugon_baat
Gelugon_baat

@dominoodle @MakoNB @rawkstar007 

Also, you are one to bring up an argument fallacy when you haven't even answered my query on whether there is any professional statute against word-play and changed the subject over to MakoNB's remark.

dominoodle
dominoodle

@Gelugon_baat @dominoodle The core team and class based gameplay is still there. It's still fast paced and it's still arcadey. 


Medics are still ubering demomen so they can destroy sentry nests, spies are still backstabbing snipers, pyros are still being annoying as hell, just like they have been for the last 7 years.

dominoodle
dominoodle

@Gelugon_baat @dominoodle @MakoNB @rawkstar007 I wasn't defending rawkstar007's opinion of the title. Personally i don't care about the title, i knew the developer of the game was called Reakktor Studios and figured they were making a play on words of that.


Wasn't trying to change the subject, just trying to clarify my initial point.

Gelugon_baat
Gelugon_baat

@dominoodle 

And yet all these strategies go into the metaphorical looney bin when someone manages to inveigle the other players on the server to go conga-dancing.

Gelugon_baat
Gelugon_baat

@dominoodle 

And what is your initial point, really?

First, you make a mention of a difference between a site's user and a site's staffer. Then you switch over to saying that someone has been using an ad hominem attack, and now you say that you don't care about the title and you are not defending someone's opinion.

dominoodle
dominoodle

@Gelugon_baat @dominoodle rawkstar007 is a user on this site, therefore he has the right to criticize the author's title and he doesn't have to be held to the same standard as the author because he is not posting as a professional.


MakoNB uses an ad hominem attack to make rawkstar007 somehow look less credible even though rawkstar007 doesn't have to be held to the same standards as professionals, because he's just a user on the site.


MakoNB was calling out his username in an attempt to undermine rockstar007's completely valid opinion. I'm not defending rockstar007's opinion, i'm defending his right to have an opinion against someone who was trying to discredit him with irrelevant facts.

Gelugon_baat
Gelugon_baat

@dominoodle

The "right" and "standard" only exist from your perspective, or more precisely, you are overdressing what is a mere opinion. There is no statute which backs that opinion.

With that said, the staffers on this site are not "professionals". You are holding them up to standards which have never been defined in any way for staffers of gaming sites.

Also, you can defend that "right" to have an opinion without being attacked, but I would defend the "right" to attack opinions too.

It's just a matter of perspective. There is no high ground here.

dominoodle
dominoodle

@Gelugon_baat @dominoodle I'm not holding them to any standards, i was merely pointing out that they HAVE some sort of standards, because they work for Gamespot, whereas rockstar007 doesn't, because he's just a user. rockstar007 is the one holding them to some sort of journalistic standards that he has decided on his own. And they are professionals in the sense that they are paid to do what they do. They posted this video because it's part of their job.


I'm fine with MakoNB disagreeing with rockstar007's opinion, but he went about doing it in the wrong way. billy19joseph's post below is perfectly fine because he's actually posing an argument which shows the logic behind the author's choice of title instead of attacking rockstar007's irrelevant username.


Your initial question ("Yet is there any journalistic statute against word-play?") would have been better suited for rockstar007 instead of me. I'm not the one who called their journalistic integrity into question.

Gelugon_baat
Gelugon_baat

@dominoodle 

If you are going to say that they have "standards" for doing their jobs, do define a clause in their contracts of employments which mention that they should not do word-play then.

Gelugon_baat
Gelugon_baat

@dominoodle

Then what are the standards which are not being upheld by GameSpot's staffers when they made the word-play?

Do also note that you are the one who brought up the word "standards" - not rawkstar007.

Gelugon_baat
Gelugon_baat

@dominoodle 

So all you are doing is something akin to what Voltaire's friend said to him? "I disagree with your opinion but I will defend your right to it?"

Gelugon_baat
Gelugon_baat

@dominoodle 

Well, what Voltaire's friend said did not prevent Voltaire from being bad-mouthed by his critics at the Church, even to his grave, did it?

What you have done is an exercise in futility - basically.

dominoodle
dominoodle

@Gelugon_baat Gotta stand up for what you believe in, even if the end result isn't what you hoped for.

Gelugon_baat
Gelugon_baat

@dominoodle 

One day, you are going to question yourself whether all that determination is worth the effort, or that you have been feeding a habit which leads nowhere.

dominoodle
dominoodle

@Gelugon_baat @dominoodle Meh, i'll go to bed and wake up in the morning and forget this conversation even happened. Internet arguments aren't THAT important to me :)

Gelugon_baat
Gelugon_baat

@dominoodle

If you are going to say that, I doubt that you are even earnest in standing up to what you believe in.