Nintendo's Trouble with Nostalgia
Peter and Tom discuss Nintendo's new 3DS game announcements and the hurdles the company currently faces.
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I think it's really funny how gamespot thought ALBW was just a rehash of ALTTP, and half a year later gamespot gives it GOTY.
You guys do realize that Miyamoto has stated on several recent occasions, that he is working on NEW IP'S? Some valid points, but at times feels like you aren't doing all your research and/or leaving certain things out, especially considering I feel like I'm the first to point out my first sentence in this comment thread
Before continuing, I must say this. I am a huge Nintendo fan, and I have believed for a long time that Gamespot is anti-Nintendo. It has angered me for awhile, and I occasionally come back to see if anything has changed. I watched this, and I actually agree with this. The crazy thing is that no other site sees this. Gotta admit, good job Gamespot.
What I like about Gamespot is that they tend not to get swept up by the latest craze and they don't end up compulsively giving mediocre games ridiculously high scores. However, because they know this, they tend to overvalue their own opinion which is often influenced by personal gripes that do not reflect how the vast majority will feel about a particular game. This makes many of their reviews more more like biased user reviews, rather than quality reviews we expect from people who we all look to to more objectively survey new titles, and convey whether or not they are worth the time of their prospective audiences. Nowhere is this more true than with Nintendo titles, for which Gamespot, noticeably, holds a particular grudge.
I absolutely feel this. I hope they are listening. I couldn't believe how jaded I felt with Paper Mario Sticker Star. It is an excellent game; it is pretty much everything I wanted and expected but it just feels ... old. Feels like I've been there. One of the most important experiences I had with games like this in recent memory is completely absent. You hit the nail on the head when you mentioned Kirby's Epic Yarn. That was an amazingly new experience just because of the game play concept. In many ways I think Sticker Star is a better game on paper but Epic Yarn was more fun to play!
It's weird and I think I struggle to put my figure on it as much as you guys seemed to in this video but I hope we get something new. No mario, no kirby, no legos (that's feeling old too). Something NEW!!!
It's funny because I agree and disagree with you. I like paying Mario and Luigi games and love playing Zelda's... eventhough they are all basically the same game. Like you I have also been playing for 30 years these games and I'm not tired of them. So I was happy to hear about the new Zelda and even the remakes they announced. I also liked to see a new Mario and Luigi Dream Team. So I disagree with you that they should stop making these games.
However, I agree with you that they should create new characters and new franchises. I think that Nintendo lacks "adult games" where there is murder and shooting and it seems to me that they don't want to make them, it's not in their culture.
I'm a lonely player, meaning I don't play a lot of online games and it's my opinion that Nintendo focuses more on family games and not on single player campains.
I think what Tom and Peter are getting at is that while they both agree Nintendo's first party titles are right up there with the best in the industry and they, like so many of us grew up with and love their characters, but are getting a bit bored of the status quo.
They remember back to a time when Mario was a new game and new character or when Yoshi or Wario were first introduced, or when Starfox and Pikmin were new IPs etc. They're just saying it's been a long time since most of their franchises and characters were new.
I get why they keep going back to the well. After all Nintendo is basically the Disney of the videogame industry, with a group of characters that are universally recognizable and who's games sell millions of copies. And that's fine and good, as Nintendo fans (myself included) eat that up. However I too would love to see Nintendo take some risks on some brand new first party IPs and characters.
I haven't played Mario since the SNES. .. Recently, I played Ocarina of Time, which was fun - but not at all like A Link To The Past. Honestly, I haven't been too happy with the games on the Wii lately. The 3DS - absolutely! But I don't ever get rid any of my old game consoles. It's just not the same playing them on a newer console or on a mod.
wtf! Nintendo release sequals to VERY popular ip's and you bag them for leaning on nostalgia. Yes I've had enough of Mario! but be consistant here gamespot, when Sony release the millionth Jak & daxter or the thousandth Rachet & Clank you don't throw up the same argument. Even Bioshock infinate is something like the 4th? sequal in the series. Gamespot is very definately biasd against Nintendo. Not very professional.
I've had this feeling for 5-8 years now. Every single title Nintendo releases that has an older name is an older game. It's the same game remade over and over with a tiny little minute change. They're just boring and old. Twilight Princess was my last attempt. It was like playing Majora's Mask or Ocarina of Time all over again. Oh, I have to do a dungeon then change form and do the dungeon again then go back and fight the boss? I DEFINITELY haven't done that before a few years ago.
Sadly I haven't owned a Nintendo game since the Gamecube. While Nintendo thought it was unique by bringing the motion controls to the Wii. I found those controls to be annoying and gimmicky, not something enjoyable. The same can be said of the Wii U another gimmicky system I have no interest in purchasing. I grew up with Nintendo all the way back to the days of Battletoads and TMNT 2 & 3 etc. And I find it sad Nintendo is no longer a system I wish to play even though I still love the Zelda, Metroid, and Mario franchises. And I know I am not the only legacy gamer that feels this way and it is sad that Nintendo in its quest to be different left its original audience behind. While something that seems rather trivial to some... I would still be buying Nintendo systems and games today if I could still use a standard controller.
Didn't Tom make an article similar to this regarding the last major Direct Conference? (the one in February)
I don't see the point on this: they keep whining on Nintendo's games repetitivity, but they don't do it when a new Call of Duty or this kind of repetitive stuff is released. Since every single big producer is releasing repetitive games because there are no space for risks in the market, Nintendo is just following a trend. They haven't a clear criteria to judge what they're talking about.
Yeah i dont understand the hate. I love nintendo with a passion .These guys practically raised me(sorry mom) and they still have and will continue to produce games of incredible quality. However, nintendo does feel like they have become complacent. Call me a whiner or whatever but i dont feel content with good games when i know very well that they are capable of so much more. Feels like every year they pull out a checklist with things to do, you know new racing title, a party game, some zelda fun, super mario, soorts titles, a mario rpg, whatever. And these games will come out, and surprise, they kick ass. We play them, we love them we beat them, we begin wating for, the next mariokart, zelda handheld, etc etc. Look I spend entire days fantasing about future zelda titles and mario always tickles my buttons. But i miss those days when nintendo harnessed the power to alter and change us.
who we where, what we loved, what we thought. It sounds silly, but come on. If playing a zelda game never made you're inner child want to never bathe again and spend you're days wandering the hills sword in hand on some epic quest of justice, well then i have nothing to say to you. I want Nintendo to be game changers again. Twist the videogame landscape like days of old. I want to spend countless nights talking to my friends about the game i never imagines playing, that i did. The new character i never new id love, that i cant live without. That moment of wonder when i put down a game, and felt my hands shake. Plain and simple, I want to believe again. Believe in surprises. Believe in the unexpected. Believe that the world of games still has room for ingenuity with the aaa landscape. And who better to make me believe again then the guys who did it first. Way back in the day. This isnt about hating on Nintendo. I just worry that they have allowed the market to chain there creative fires. How can you guys not want more from the greatest game company in the world?
To be honest, Nintendo hasn't impressed me in the last 5-10 years, probly because of the reptition of games that we're discussing, BUT, the announcement of the sequel to "A link to the past" is probly the most excited i've ever been for a game announcement in my whole life. So i really think it all comes down to each persons personal experiences with games and their memories of certain things. While an announcement of a new modern Starfox would excite another individual, i wouldn't even care, because i don't have fond memories of playing the game because i hardly played Starfox.
I think Nintendo does things so often with their franchises that they are no longer nostalgic. It feels like yesterday that I played a new Zelda game. How about another Eternal Darkness? That game was terrific.
Nintendo doesn't have a problem with nostalgia. Their games are awesome. Your problem is that you don't judge Nintendo games on their own merit. You judge them through the prism that they owe you new IP so you take their scores down a peg. Crazy thing is that almost everyone agrees that these new games are typically amazing products in their own right and that they offer many different things from all the other games in the series but they don't do it for you because Nintendo owes you new sh1t apparently. Who knew.
Remember me and my cousin playing Star Fox on the N64 and at the time thinking it was the best game in the WORLD, immense. If they released a great new one on the WiiU it would turn my head. My cousin is dead now and I have good memorys gaming with that fella on the N64.
Okay, I think that's enough hate for now. I absolutely love Nintendos games and all but I do have to agree with Peter and Tom a little,
Nintendo has been keeping it old for too long but honestly that there is not a bad thing, though doing it for over 30 years? it's time for SOME change.
Now if you ask me I love a game that follows time and that there should be how Nintendo should work nowadays, Zelda has a lot of games but I would like to see the future IN the Zelda world, say for example:
Zelda and Link actually get together later and have a daughter who later, goes missing. Now later Link finds this kid in the middle of the forest and takes him in and raises him. Later when he's older he goes to the forest and finds a girl who is currently being attacked by monsters and steps in to save her, that same girl happens to be the missing heir to Hyrule.
Something like that would actually grab the audience and keep them in their seats because it's both new.....yet it still gives you that old Zelda feel, and not just that but later they could add in a scene where the boy gets captured and Link finds out and goes out to rescue him with all of the equipment he had from previous adventures still with him and ready to use, we would play as Link for a while to just get into that moment again.
That there is my opinion on Nintendo and I hope it actually happens because I would love to see my childhood grow out and reach to others, not just that but this would give an entirely new feeling to newer generations. Think of it like this, I had a childhood where Link was this total badass but the newer generations will have a childhood of the same brave blonde who wears a green cap but it won't be the same person but a completely new hero who is linked to the past.
Also it would be nice to not see 26 year olds and 12 year olds fighting over the same game saying "the old was better", "No the newer ones are much classy" Both would just have their own love of the same yet different game.
A clear distinction must be made between veteran Nintendo players and recent newcomers.
I have played Mario since 1992 and have seen the game evolve over 15 years. Super Mario 1 through 3, Mario Kart, Dr Mario, Mario Paint, Mario Golf etc. Then there's Zelda and Donkey Kong. I stopped playing with the Gamecube because I thought I wasn't missing anything and the PS2 was so appealing and offered something different and new.
They are definitely stuck in the past but whether it's a good or bad thing depends on how long you have played these games. For a relative newcomer, they are fun, accessible, puzzle filled games for you and your kids to play. For me, it's repetitive, seen-it-before games.
However they are always exceptions to the rule like the Galaxy games and of course Metroid. I remember watching my older brother play it to completion in Super Metroid, before I played it and it's latest incarnations. These games were, are awesome only because they are not shoved down your throat.
While I may have differences of opinion with Tom and Peter regarding games, they make valid points for me.
The Wii U is lacking, definitely..
But screw GS and Pachter. Additionally, screw the idiots who only side with the moron when he bashes Nintendo, but disagrees with him in just about every other subject.
Pachter is a disgrace of an analyst, 'nuff said.
@OllieBrown Do you think Nintendo could benefit from the EA approach and have major updates much more frequently? I know they sortof tried it with Metroid Prime. This is in complete contradiction to what you're saying, but, do you think that major franchises dropping out of consumer consciousness every console cycle helps the franchise any?
@ruythalacker Games doesn't have to feature murder and shooting to be adult games. Yes, most of them do but so does Mario and Zelda. Whenever you attack and kill something or someone in a game, that game features murder. In Mario, Zelda, and Metroid; you kill something. So it's not a matter of murder and shooting, it's a matter of having worthwhile games. Nintendo seems to think they can compete, if they're even trying to compete, by releasing the same games over and over again.
There's nothing wrong with having family games, the problem for Nintendo is that Sony and Microsoft features family games also, only they have games for everyone else as well where Nintendo doesn't. All Nintendo does is release games we've seen years ago and try to innovate the way we play them instead of being innovative with the games themselves. Nintendo is failing at an alarming rate at this point, just look at the Wii U sales then look at the games they have for it. Too little too late.
@Gazz64 I do point out when other companies run their properties into the ground. The last proper Ratchet and Clank (A Crack in Time) was my favorite release of 2009, but I thought it was a great point to kill the franchise and have had little interest in the two subsequent spin-off sequels. God of War III was one of my favorite games in 2010, and I also wished that was the stopping point for the franchise. I haven't played an Assassin's Creed since the second. I discourage milking from every company so I have no idea where you're coming from with this argument.
@chickenhunter30 That was "Bring Your Lynx to Work Day" so you just hear screaming and terror in the background.
@Tanix24 you CAN use a fucking normal controller, hell you could even just plug in the gamecube controller on the Wii and it will work, they SELL NORMAL CONTROLLERS TOO.. I hate nintendo but your argument makes me even want to defend them, you seriously need to do some research before posting this kind of crap.
@thetravman Yeah, I wrote about how they're crushed by their own legacies. This was a different approach to the same problem.
@FlyingKoopa You have a point on that, but many of Nintendo's games haven't changed in years. Legend of Zelda? Hardly has changed over the course of time. Mario? It's already quite obvious how many of his games are practically the same stuff we have seen over the years. It's not really just Nintendo either, it's many of the games/companies as a whole.
@FlyingKoopa Tom Mc Shea is very vocal about his hate for Call of Duty; second of all, Activision has been milking Call of Duty for under a decade- Nintendo has been milking Mario and Zelda for close to 30 years. And their criticism is not bashing Nintendo's games, it's pointing out the fact that as a developer who almost solely relies on its first party exclusives, it isn't taking the kind of chances that would get a lot of gamers to say "Well I have Mario Kart on Wii... but I've definitely got to get a Wii U for the new Mario Kart!". Nostalgia can string people along for a while, and Nintendo still has its share of fans (I myself own a 3DSXL, even if I never owned a Wii and see no reason at all to buy a Wii U), but those numbers will diminish over time unless they prove themselves relevant in the modern era. Right now they are banking on children, who grow up- and adults who can only relive their childhood so many times before deciding that spending time with GTAV is more rewarding than jumping on their millionth goomba.
@paxusromanus I agree 100%. The problem is that some people have it so deeply ingrained in their mind that Nintendo is for children, that even if they produced an m rated game people still wouldn't support it.
@stringface73 That Zelda game wouldn't catch my attention. The great thing about Zelda IS that they're almost all different Links and Zeldas. Lke in SS, they grew up childhood friends. In OoT, they only met in their dreams.
@kardes Actually, I can only imagine that would make the franchises go stale that much sooner! It sure took a long time to start to get this feeling about Mario and Metroid (and I don't think it has happened with Metroid yet which hasn't been used and abused as much as Mario).
Incidentally, I was starting to get jaded with the 'Prime' series when Prime 3 rolled around but I was also much older by then and had less time to devote to gaming (damn you graduate school ... sigh).
@AzathothMetal @Tanix24 Oh? I was not aware Metroid Prime 3, Mario Galaxy, and Zelda supports standard controls... Everything I have ever seen posted says they do not. And by support... I mean functions correctly... not hacked together and broken...I see no where on here that it is supported...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_games_that_use_the_Classic_Controller
@grey_fox1984 I really get your point, and I agrre with it. But I still insist: why don't they make videos and keep screaming to the world about how many WoW expansions are redundant, how soccer games are all the same, how shooters got "pasteurized" (i don't know if this have any meaning in english, but in portuguese it does). I just don't understand why they don't definitely say: well, in our opinion, Nintendo is childish, we don't like it. We like to see bullets and blood. They DO have something with Nintendo.
@grey_fox1984 You make it sound like milking Zelda and Mario for that long is a bad thing! I, for one, will be devastated when the Zelda franchise is done with.
@Tanix24 No I'll give you that, nobody wants anything forced on them. However, you have to agree that motion gaming was a phenomenon. If it wasn't both Sony and Microsoft wouldn't have made their own motion gaming devices, even if they were both failures.
@yavix Can you honestly tell me that a majority of gamers would prefer the motion controls over standard controls if both were available? Due to motion controls being forced on the consumer as the only option with the release of the Wii made me step away from Nintendo. As a consumer I was merely expressing my distaste for the changes that Nintendo made as a company. I don't doubt that many player enjoy the controls. I am one that does not and I know I am not the only one.
@Tanix24 @yavix Swinging your forearm, and jumping around are two totally different things. To play all of the games you mentioned requires you to do nothing more than move your forearm. I would know since I own them all. Hell even some of my PS3 games require me to move, and that's with a standard controller.
@yavix Its not hard to jump up and down either but why would I want to do that while playing a video game? I want to sit back and relax... not get a fake workout. There is this thing called outside... When I want real exercise I visit the the magical land called "Outdoors". Scary I know.