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29Jun 08

The Downfall of the Classic RPG

Call me old school, but I grew up with traditional RPG games like Ultima and Might 'n' Magic on the PC and Final Fantasy/Dragon Warrior on the NES and SNES. I understand that technology has to evolve, but why does the gameplay have to be thrown out the window? Why does the feel of an RPG have to be so 'cold' now? Why is it that with the advent of 3D technology all games, RPGs especially now have to be 'ultra-realistic'? RPGs are based in FANTASY. Games are meant to be challenging and fun. Games like Elder Scrolls are wonderful to look at, and they are nice to roam around in, but they are too encumbered and too difficult and realistic to be 'any fun.'

Games like Diablo and Dungeon Siege occasionally help to try and fill the void, but these games are way too few and far between these days. All RPGs now almost seem to have to automatically be MMO only. Games like WoW are why Blzzard was able to wait so long to finally even create Diablo III. Creating MMOs are ideal for companies because they don't have to create a lengthy, captivating story line, or put ton's of stuff for one person or a very small group of people to do. The world doesn't have to be as balanced, and they can basically throw it together very quickly, get it out the door in no time, and then sit back and collect out $9.95 or $12.95 or however much you MMO of choice charges.

MMOs are a very important part of gaming today. They should not be replaced, but they are NOT a replacement for true traditional RPGs either. We need RPGS that have great single or multi-player capability, wonderful story lines, and great things to do in the game. I would gladly pay $60+ for a game I can play by myself or with a small group of people (battleNet) and that has tons of replay value...

To all the game manufacturers who make RPGs or used to make RPGs: Please start making good, deep, single player RPGs again. RPGs that we can become emotionally involved in. RPGs that have tons of replay value. RPGs we can lose months of social life to if we so choose.

  • Posted Jun 29, 2008 11:54 am PT
  • Category: Games
  • 29 Comments

29 Comments

  • chibimmy

    Posted Jun 30, 2008 8:20 am PT

    Try playing Lost Odyssey, its got such a good old rpg feeling with the beauty of the next gen.

  • timcoye

    Posted Jun 30, 2008 8:25 am PT

    I agree, though I haven't given Oblivion a full chance yet (set it aside for fear of losing myself for too long). I don't have much interest in MMOs, and the Dungeon Siege games get old too quickly. I remember spending DAYS playing Pool of Radiance years and years ago. Crappy graphics and slow, turn based gameplay, but endlessly entertaining for me back then.

  • ShadowLynx

    Posted Jun 30, 2008 8:35 am PT

    Well, hopefully we won't have to wait too many years before Diablo III comes out, gameplay footage looks good. http://www.blizzard.com/diablo3/

  • Raven_Lockheart

    Posted Jun 30, 2008 8:35 am PT

    Agreed on this but i do like the Oblivion stile games just not as much as the normal..... I want to see more RPG games like the turn based system. Hence why I like Lost Odyssey so much. But the problem is most gamers now a days want the same Oblivion action and wont want to go to the turn based system because "dare I say it" they have to read! So then most gamers end up just going for the easy to play and pick up games like WOW "yes i know you read in WOW but most the quest are the same thing over and over again' and Oblivion. So then every one wants to go away from the turn based having to read lots of text.

  • Raven_Lockheart

    Posted Jun 30, 2008 8:37 am PT

    Oh and i hear rumors that Diablo III is coming out the end of this year? Any one can say weather its true or not ?

  • Zuggy40

    Posted Jun 30, 2008 8:41 am PT

    The problem I have with games like Oblivion is that they seem to try to re-create the mmo-type gameplay in a traditional RPG with massive worlds and open-ended gameplay,

  • Pillsburyhitman

    Posted Jun 30, 2008 8:46 am PT

    Color me crazy, but I fail to see what was so "deep" about Final Fantasy or Dragon Warrior/Quest on the original NES. The plot in the case of the former was virtually nonexistent, and might as well have shared the same status in the latter. In FF's case, not a single player character ever had a spoken line of dialogue, and in the early sequels that remedied this shortcoming the dialogue was of such meaningless and banal quality as to be seen as a degradation of the formula as opposed to an improvement. And let us not even speak of plot: four unnamed warriors seek to destroy an unnamed dark lord through the recovery of gargantuan blue crystals. Clearly this was an epic masterpiece in the same vein of story-telling as to render it akin to Baldur's Gate, Planescape: Torment, Knights of the Old Republic, Final Fantasy 7/8/10, Vagrant Story, Xenogears, Mass Effect, or even the mediocre Lost Odyssey, Blue Dragon, and Eternal Sonata!

    In other words, while I can understand your sentiment regarding the elder Might and Magic and Ultima titles, I fail to see how referencing the original Final Fantasies and Dragon Quests does anything to develop your point. Additionally, whilst you complain of realism and yearn for games that emulate the classic Diablo titles, you seem to be completely unaware of the numerous titles that have equaled or improved upon the Diablo formula over the years, the least of which being a broad span of titles from Champions of Norrath to Titan Quest.

    In conclusion, I'm just not certain I see what you're complaining blue. If it's classic simplicity of the turn-based RPG for which you yearn, why not pick up a more recent game along that vein? Dragon Warrior VIII comes to mind immediately as the paragon of this genre, but there are numerous other titles that achieve the same quality and effect for which you seem so nostalgic.

  • Hawk51089

    Posted Jun 30, 2008 8:47 am PT

    You make a compeling argument, but just remember this: As long as Square Enix is in business, traditional RPGs aren't going ANYWHERE!!! But it seems to me that the trend is leaning more towards handheld devices for traditional RPGs. So crack open that DS and get to play Final Fantasy.

  • hanselstansel

    Posted Jun 30, 2008 8:52 am PT

    I'm not quite sure what you mean by "realistic." Do you mean micromanagement?

  • triclops41

    Posted Jun 30, 2008 9:04 am PT

    I think this article is nonsense. The author presents classic turn based rpgs as the only good RPGs. Then says oblivion isnt any fun, then says mmos are easy to just slap together! This person uses the logic of a ten year old to make the point of a grumpy grandpa ie "back in my day, games were good!"

  • Pillsburyhitman

    Posted Jun 30, 2008 9:15 am PT

    I'm afraid I must second triclops's comment, with reservations.

  • bootstrike

    Posted Jun 30, 2008 9:26 am PT

    Because online games can control piracy better?

    "It's crazy how the ratio between sales to piracy is probably 1 to 15 to 1 to 20 right now," Yerli told IGN...

    "if the situation continues like this or gets worse-I think we would only consider PC exclusive titles that are either online or multiplayer and no more single-player"

    http://www.shacknews.com/onearticle.x/53357

  • goombanomics

    Posted Jun 30, 2008 9:39 am PT

    I can't agree more. Modern MMPORG's are way too intense. I want to play massive dungeons with many different people from around the world- but that doesn't mean I want to forget the one person RPG adventure. I miss the days of going to the video store and having a huge selection of 'solid' 1 player PSX RPG's. Sometimes I want to play alone.

  • Direstrait

    Posted Jun 30, 2008 9:46 am PT

    In response to the original poster the amount of player retention of an MMO that doesn't deliver out of the gate is nil. I think a lot of game publishers are starting to realize that if you rush an MMO it becomes DOA so these games aren't slapped together, it does take a lot of time working on their system if they succeed. However, the work they do isn't on storylines or character development. Most of the MMO is done for balance as cooperative or competitive experience, and that's fine for some people.

    Personally, I've stopped relying on Japan to deliver an RPG experience with any innovation. Western RPG's have stepped up to the plate, so to speak, with BioWare's character dialogue trees actually giving the player some freedom to define the character you're playing or Oblivion's diplomacy minigame. I'm not a huge fan of the latter and I thought a lot of Oblivion's combat was handled sloppily in regards to making a magic-based character but still, most japanese rpg's I see churned out these days is the same story with a different coat of paint (pretty much looking at you square).

    In closing, I hope Japanese developers take a hint from us westerners, I'm a fan good 'ol turn based fun but sometimes I want to feel like I'm having some impact on the story instead of being a minder to a bunch of superpowered teens and one or two 30+ year olds who's main task is to herd them to a story point and optimize their items into their deadliest configuration. It's fun for a while but it gets stale when it's overdone.

    As an aside, I agree with pillsbury's list of games with epic stories. All solid choices. Call me crazy but I also really dug Persona 3, it has a lot of repetitive hack 'n slash that I sort of came down on in my post but it's system was pretty cool and I had a soft spot for the story.

  • KRandor_basic

    Posted Jun 30, 2008 9:54 am PT

    Part1:
    http://rpgforumsonline.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=20613

    Part2:
    http://rpgforumsonline.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=20619

  • dgrimm

    Posted Jun 30, 2008 10:24 am PT

    I actually (mostly) agree with the poster. There have been very few games with that classic (and non J-RPG) RPG feel. For the record, I couldn't stand Baldur's Gate. The presentation of the game just doesn't feel RPGish to me. It feels more like an RTS, which just doesn't give me the immersion I'm looking for. KOTOR and Mass Effect are great games, but they're not "Classic" RPGs. There was something fun about the old "wander around an immense landscape while exploring" games that most new RPGs don't provide. I don't find Diablo to be a satisfying RPG experience either. It's fun to play once in awhile, but it's not an RPG.

    That being said, there are definitely a few standout RPGs that have come along since Might & Magic IV: Clouds of Xeen.

    Check out the exult engine for Ultima7 / Serpent Isle.
    Gothic 2 (!) - Best RPG I've played in years. Takes awhile to figure out the combat and the interface, but there's no monster scaling... Great storyline. If you run into a creature too tough for you, run like hell. Need different strategies for different creatures.
    Daggerfall (My favorite in the Elder Scrolls series)
    Wizardry 8
    Arx Fatalis (now on Steam).

    Vampire: Bloodlines (okay, not a big wander/explore game either, but awesome none-the-less).

  • zaptoman

    Posted Jun 30, 2008 10:35 am PT

    You didn't mention anything l think of as a true rpg. Try Planescape: Torment, then get back to me.

  • somesthetic

    Posted Jun 30, 2008 12:42 pm PT

    Persona 3, Eternal Sonata, Disgaea, Dragon Quest VIII

    There's a variety of story driven, cartoonish, decidedly old school RPG's still coming out.

  • kokomos

    Posted Jun 30, 2008 12:51 pm PT

    No, it's just evolution of RPGs. I'm currently playing The World Ends With You for the DS, and it's not constructed like an MMO like you say it is. Games like Oblivion are constructed like MMOs because they're western RPGs. JRPGs like FF, DQ, Earthbound, TWERY and Lost Odyssey are mostly the same because they follow the same format with some changes. WRPGs and JRPGs are different types of RPGs. They're called Role Playing Games for a reason: You're playing the role of someone else. That's why it's called an RPG.

  • aragon00

    Posted Jun 30, 2008 1:00 pm PT

    I think Dragon Quest VIII heralded the end of the simple fun RPG days with storylines you care about. Lost Odyssey was pretty but bland, final fantasy XII bombed, and MMO's all suck - every one is designed to MAKE MONEY not provide entertainment. They only give you enough entertainment to keep you paying them and that's not what you want in your head when you're making a game.

  • coteobrien17

    Posted Jun 30, 2008 1:33 pm PT

    Wow my feelings have finally taken shape and I seriously hope that Final Fantasy steps it back up and live up to it's name because I agree that XII sucked pretty hardcore.

  • BasiliskOrb

    Posted Jun 30, 2008 2:07 pm PT

    Old School RPGs are around- you just have to look: Eschalon Book I by Basilisk Games.

  • Casker

    Posted Jun 30, 2008 2:35 pm PT

    Some good old school games are blue dragon, lost odyssey, and of coruse the new final fantasy 4 port on the DS which I am very excited about. FF4 was my personal favorite on SNES, and I hear FF3 on DS is good, but I haven't tried it. Also if you have a PSP there is FF1 and 2 plus a great port of FF tactics which is awsome. Other than that I do see your point. As far as next gen RPG's there is nothing that spectacular out there. Lost Odessey and Blue dragon where good, but they just didn't have that great epic feelling like final fantasy 7 through ten or another great one was star ocean to the end of time, and Final Fantasy 11 and 12 where kind of pittiful for Final fantsy, one being An mmo and the other being a single player MMO with a boring story and a lame un-important main character.

  • noamatt128

    Posted Jun 30, 2008 6:06 pm PT

    I honestly, can see eye to eye with you. I completely agree that RPG's have just...well, lost there magic that they used to have. Although I wasn't old enough to play 'em until a few years ago, I can clearly say that classic RPGs are much more fun. Realism is just boring more often than not; it's audience is a different mind set than what RPG's should be, whether or not "They're closer to actual Role Playing." Dragon Quest VIII kind of flew under the radar, but I have to say that it has provided me with that "classic RPG feel," and it's really good at that. Keep in mind that SquareEnix is remaking Dragon Quest IV - VI, and they sound oh-so-sweet to me.

  • D4nkCLIMES

    Posted Jun 30, 2008 6:50 pm PT

    Stop the whining... There are plenty of good old school style rpgs around. First of all Casker hit the final fantasy style stuff right on. The remakes are good, ever heard of etrian oddysey? The ds has a lot of good oldschool stuff and The World Ends WIth You (If any game can convince you that newer single player rpgs are good it's this one. play it, I dare you). And the diablo formula is alive and well. Sacred and Titan Quest (both pretty good clones) and more recently Dungeon Runners (which heavily parodies the style) and Hellgate(actually, forget hellgate) all offer straight up oldschool monster thrashing. Anyone checked how many roguelikes there are these days? So go hit google and quit the bichin.

  • kippesd

    Posted Jun 30, 2008 8:17 pm PT

    zaptoman

    You didn't mention anything l think of as a true rpg. Try Planescape: Torment, then get back to me.

    I couldn't agree more. I was big into Ultima, Might and Magic, The Bard's Tale, Phantasy.....Planescape is my personal pick for best RPG of all time.

  • Fentekreel

    Posted Jun 30, 2008 10:31 pm PT

    The idea of an RPG is to play as someone within a storyline and experience their trials and tribulations though the vision of the character and storyteller alike. The "traditional RPG" as you are describing is a tried and true formula of wander around kill stuff and get rewarded. Ultima and Might n' Magic were great games and the last ones that I played were just like the ones before it with a different story and some new game play elements. Games like Diablo and Dungeon Siege are modernized and brought back the action/adventure/rpg something similar to your legend of Zelda and Secret of Mana type games. These are still traditional styled RPG games. They may not be the turn base bliss that you miss but they do deliver the RPG style you believe is missing though they are a breed of RPG that you may not enjoy.

    I do somewhat agree with you about the MMO ordeal. It does seem like there is a lot of time and energy into building these expansive worlds for players to cooperatively or competitively play an RPG though there are some things that are the same about them all. Generally speaking your MMO games live and breathe on a few things. The idea that one massive persistant world that you can play over and over again with your friends to find new items to make money or make your character more powerful. This is found in all RPGs known to man. Granted they are not a turn based selective but more like your Diablo and legend of Zelda of hack and slash action/adventure/RPG mentality. Though I do agree that the story lines in these MMO games are rather weak just ad hearing to the 12 basic story lines of fiction...I cant remember the exact number...where are the English majors when you need them...You only have so many to choose from especially with the go there and get me this and kill that. These are all standard RPG elements though. I think they could put a little more emphasis on having smaller group quests but in all reality the strategy for MMO games is more people is more fun.

    Though looking at MMO structures your sure to find a few of these a bit more to your taste. The Consistant world model is something that i do not enjoy but can understand why others can. You know where everything can and should be along with a helping hand of friends you can conquer anything. I wish that the dungeons would be more randomized in constructions much like DIablo had done but it wont. I think there was only one MMO that had changed the landscape of the game world though user interactions but it was not balanced. I would like to see an MMO where one of the expansions wrecks some havok and changes the game a good bit....think FFVI's halftime destruction...same game different landscape...newer stuff How about kill off a race or two in one of those updates I'm sure a crazy wizard or demon can destroy a few towns right? they do seem a little big

    While i would like to think that MMO games cannot replace a well thought out story or some of those great moments where a character touches some emotion that would otherwise lay dormant. Think the end of FFVII's first disc I'm sure most people were shocked. I know i was.... The story is something that i have missed in games for a long time. I could sit and cut up a lot of games that people find great but it would be worthless. I would like to see Square bring back some story in their games and not just press on...could help their stock and not have to pin bad games on a good designer...

    I completely disagree with your imaginative idea of a single player RPG creation. The world still has to be balanced hopefully slightly not in your favor so the game is somewhat challenging but balanced so it seems to be of that world. No you cannot just slap a game together very quickly as there are sure to be bugs and such that will detract from the storytelling and game play. This idea you hold is false and will not hold true for ANY good single player game or even a moderately good game. Crafting a well thought out story and memorable character isn't done through RPG maker....in a few weeks, months, or even years...Until you take some time and look into software development I feel you cannot comment on this...I've found graphics rather hard to do...Also your want to play on battle net with a few friends on a good rpg...sounds closely to the MMO concept. ...

  • LordChandar

    Posted Jul 1, 2008 5:48 am PT

    Fentekreel, I don't think I have ever read a comment where I agree with it, then disagree, then agree, then disagree. You really are all over the map.

  • sandswipe

    Posted Jul 1, 2008 11:16 am PT

    ---Creating MMOs are ideal for companies because they don't have to create a lengthy, captivating story line, or put ton's of stuff for one person or a very small group of people to do. The world doesn't have to be as balanced, and they can basically throw it together very quickly, get it out the door in no time, and then sit back and collect out $9.95 or $12.95 or however much you MMO of choice charges.---

    HA! RIGHT!

    MMOs are the most difficult type of game to develop, easily. They all have a story, some of them a pretty good one, even if you don't bother to seek it out. Hundreds of NPCs have to be written, and countless quests are constantly being tested, retested, and added. You claim they don't need balance, but every company out there tries its hardest to balance a dozen types of player- it's a hundred thousand times harder then you think it is to make sure that dozens of completely different skills are all EXACTLY as useful as each other, because even the smallest advantage will be exploited

    Then there's the server issues. Have you ever tried to program something that can handle ten thousand people trying to connect at the same time without slowing down? IT'S NOT EASY. And of course MMO developers have the unique challenge of dealing with real world moral issues- what do you did if a user's account was hacked and their property was taken? Giving it back would set a precedent that could further unbalance the economy, while not giving it back would upset your players and be comparable to theft.

    Any MMO that isn't WoW, even if it's a completely different game going in a completely different direction, will be compared to WoW unfavorably, lose, and be ignored by the majority of gamers because it can't compete with the best-funded product in the most expensive genre.

    Oblivion wasn't difficult. There was a slider in the pause menu where you could set it to easy literally ANY TIME. About to die? Pause, move it left, unpause, and watch as everything bounces off of you harmlessly. I'm not sure exactly what your problem with it's realism is, but based on the time I surrounded myself with unkillable NPCs and assaulted a gate to hell using magical ice and jumping spells I'm going to say you're not sure either.

    Oblivion is also the only game I've ever seen which has multiple complete books in the game. Go up to a bookshelf in FF7 and you get ". . . it's a book about mechanics." Go up to a bookshelf in Cyrodiil and you get a hundred and thirty page novel, a history of the local city, a local creation myth book for children, and a war book.
    http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Biography_of_Barenziah%2C_v_1
    This is something that blew me away the first time I found it that a lot of people either don't notice or ignore. It really makes the storyline come alive.

My Recent Ratings

Title Score
Virtua Tennis 2009 8.5
Final Fantasy IV 10
Ultima IX: Ascension 4.0
Ultima Collection 9.0
Final Fantasy VII 9.5
Final Fantasy II 9.5
Dragon Warrior 8.5
Dragon Warrior II 8.5
Dragon Warrior III 8.5
Dragon Warrior IV 8.5
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