GameSpot Video Games, PC, Wii, PlayStation 2, GameCube, PSP, DS, GBA, PS2, PS3, Xbox 360, PlayStation 3 GameSpot | GameFAQs | SportsGamer | MP3.com | TV.com | Metacritic
E-mail:
Password:
Forgot Login | Help
GameSpot Video Games, PC, Wii, PlayStation 2, GameCube, PSP, DS, GBA, PS2, PS3, Xbox 360, PlayStation 3

Forums - The Atheism Union Board - Have you ever converted anyone to atheis ...

New Message New Message
Next Page Next
Previous Page
Page 1
Have you ever converted anyone to atheis ...
junglist101
Level 42
Karnov
Posts: 5007
User is Online
Nov 8, 2012 1:08 am PT

Tbh, I'm not even sure this is possible. From what I've seen when you start presenting evidence to a theist of the non existence of a "god" they usually dig in their heels with no intention of budging. Mostly, I think they take it as a personal attack as well as a test from God himself. In many cases I'm pretty sure they think that we are doing the work of....SATAN. They should know that we neither communicate with, nor believe in the existence of satan or we wouldn't be atheists -_-. Either way I think it's nigh impossible to convince someone that their religion is non sense. Not to say that we can't plant seeds of doubt that may grow at a later date.

Edit: I know the word "converted" in this regard is a misnomer but using it was the simplest way to convey my thoughts.



Edited on Nov 12, 2012 2:23 am PT
Quote Quote
Reply Reply
Quick Quote Quick Quote
Quick Reply Quick Reply
psymon100
Level 31
Ippon!
Posts: 3642
User is Online
Nov 8, 2012 1:33 am PT

Over here there are less zealots. Simple logic usually works on them. Why are the other religions not right?

Quickly! Think of a good sig. Everyone's counting on you.

Quote Quote
Reply Reply
Quick Quote Quick Quote
Quick Reply Quick Reply
junglist101
Level 42
Karnov
Posts: 5007
User is Online
Nov 8, 2012 2:35 am PT

psymon100 wrote:

Over here there are less zealots. Simple logic usually works on them. Why are the other religions not right?
Here in the US your question would either be deflected or answered by saying that they are false religions, evil, etc.

Your simple logic doesn't work well here.

Quote Quote
Reply Reply
Quick Quote Quick Quote
Quick Reply Quick Reply
Zeviander  
Level 32
Snake Eater
Posts: 9148
Nov 8, 2012 10:23 am PT
I think it's more about sewing the seeds of doubt. Atheism isn't so much something to be "converted" to in as much as it is an acceptance of the universe being indifferent to our existence.

|| AMD A8-4500M @ 1.9 GHz || AMD Radeon HD 7460G || 8 GB DDR3 || 750 GB HDD ||
The Atheism Union || last.fm || Try avast! for free!
Quote Quote
Reply Reply
Quick Quote Quick Quote
Quick Reply Quick Reply
psymon100
Level 31
Ippon!
Posts: 3642
User is Online
Nov 8, 2012 10:25 am PT

Westboro Baptist Church levels of indoctrination huh?

I've met people so far gone they ignore the logic.

It's a shame.

Quickly! Think of a good sig. Everyone's counting on you.

Quote Quote
Reply Reply
Quick Quote Quick Quote
Quick Reply Quick Reply
RationalAtheist  
Level 42
Karnov
Posts: 4620
User is Online
Nov 8, 2012 2:36 pm PT

I think big a difference between atheist conversions and religious conversions is the re-enforcement needed to maintain the view. With religious conversions there is often explicit mechanisms of re-enforcement. Things like authority figures, repetition, guided group discussions, fear and other methods of overcoming doubt and crises of faith are implicit in religions, but no such thing really exists with atheism.

You could say that surrounding oneself with atheist propaganda, like reading books on it or watching atheist-flavoured Youtube videos might be a way of immersing in atheism, but these practices are often geared towards asking questions than answering them and expressing doubt rather than instilling confidence.

I wouldn't like to think I've converted anyone to atheism, since being an atheist does not necessarily make one a "better" person (nor does being religious either). I prefer to think I offer my opinion and leave it up to others to consider what to believe for themselves. For me, atheism is a profoundly personal  view.

 


"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.” - Stephen Roberts
GAMESPOT ATHEISM UNION - here for religious debate

Quote Quote
Reply Reply
Quick Quote Quick Quote
Quick Reply Quick Reply
junglist101
Level 42
Karnov
Posts: 5007
User is Online
Nov 9, 2012 12:55 am PT

RationalAtheist wrote:

I think big a difference between atheist conversions and religious conversions is the re-enforcement needed to maintain the view. With religious conversions there is often explicit mechanisms of re-enforcement. Things like authority figures, repetition, guided group discussions, fear and other methods of overcoming doubt and crises of faith are implicit in religions, but no such thing really exists with atheism.

You could say that surrounding oneself with atheist propaganda, like reading books on it or watching atheist-flavoured Youtube videos might be a way of immersing in atheism, but these practices are often geared towards asking questions than answering them and expressing doubt rather than instilling confidence.

I wouldn't like to think I've converted anyone to atheism, since being an atheist does not necessarily make one a "better" person (nor does being religious either). I prefer to think I offer my opinion and leave it up to others to consider what to believe for themselves. For me, atheism is a profoundly personal view.
Considering that a person my not take it so well to know that there is no higher purpose to life, I've often wondered if it is a diservice to an individual to cause them to doubt their faith as long as they aren't harming anyone...

Quote Quote
Reply Reply
Quick Quote Quick Quote
Quick Reply Quick Reply
RationalAtheist  
Level 42
Karnov
Posts: 4620
User is Online
Nov 9, 2012 4:54 am PT
junglist101 wrote:

Considering that a person my not take it so well to know that there is no higher purpose to life, I've often wondered if it is a diservice to an individual to cause them to doubt their faith as long as they aren't harming anyone...

I agree with that. But conversely someone may be liberated from a restrictive adherence and open up to the many and varied different reasons to get the most out of life. We simply just don't know. I certainly do think an atheist perspective is a more open one than any dogmatic religious view though.


"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.” - Stephen Roberts
GAMESPOT ATHEISM UNION - here for religious debate

Quote Quote
Reply Reply
Quick Quote Quick Quote
Quick Reply Quick Reply
Android339
Level 28
Bionic Commando
Posts: 3516
Nov 9, 2012 11:14 am PT
I don't mean to be that guy, but I think the drug culture in certain areas has been helpful in opening up people's eyes to certain facets of their religious beliefs. During my first year of college I smoked a lot of pot, and have done acid three times. It's not that these drugs have led me away from any religious beliefs or anything, but for anybody wanting to lean away from limiting beliefs, the psychical explorations of psychedelics is helpful in fulfilling many aspects of what religion was supposed to fill, but ended up overfilling with arbitrary rules and odd dogma. Psychedelic and psychical self-exploration is a valid alternative for those seeking a deeper meaning in life, one that doesn't involve having to know all the answers, but involves experiencing all that life has to offer through every lens possible.

Communist

"The confused mass of rules of conduct called law, which has been bequeathed to us by slavery, serfdom, feudalism, and royalty, has taken the place of those stone monsters, before whom human victims used to be immolated, and whom slavish savages dared not even touch lest they should be slain by the thunderbolts of heaven." - Peter Kropotkin

.

.

Libertarian

A consistent libertarian "must oppose private ownership of the means of production and wage slavery, which is a component of this system, as incompatible with the principle that labor must be freely undertaken and under the control of hte producer." - Noam Chomsky

Quote Quote
Reply Reply
Quick Quote Quick Quote
Quick Reply Quick Reply
wis3boi
Level 63
Big Smoke
Posts: 27081
User is Online
Nov 9, 2012 12:16 pm PT

Over the internet, I've definitely turned people skeptic. Real life, no

E-Married to TecmoGirlThe Non Prophets | Mars Sanctuary | Social Cafe



Quote Quote
Reply Reply
Quick Quote Quick Quote
Quick Reply Quick Reply
wis3boi
Level 63
Big Smoke
Posts: 27081
User is Online
Nov 9, 2012 12:18 pm PT

Android339 wrote:
I don't mean to be that guy, but I think the drug culture in certain areas has been helpful in opening up people's eyes to certain facets of their religious beliefs. During my first year of college I smoked a lot of pot, and have done acid three times. It's not that these drugs have led me away from any religious beliefs or anything, but for anybody wanting to lean away from limiting beliefs, the psychical explorations of psychedelics is helpful in fulfilling many aspects of what religion was supposed to fill, but ended up overfilling with arbitrary rules and odd dogma. Psychedelic and psychical self-exploration is a valid alternative for those seeking a deeper meaning in life, one that doesn't involve having to know all the answers, but involves experiencing all that life has to offer through every lens possible.

Well you know what they say....religion is the opium of the people

KARL%252520mARX-8x6.jpg

E-Married to TecmoGirlThe Non Prophets | Mars Sanctuary | Social Cafe



Quote Quote
Reply Reply
Quick Quote Quick Quote
Quick Reply Quick Reply
michaelP4 Site Greeter  
Level 63
Big Smoke
Posts: 17249
User is Online
Nov 9, 2012 6:13 pm PT
The best I've done is made them think about their beliefs and put the idea into their heads - which they never actually considered before. Not sure though whether I have ever inspired anyone to deconvert (rather than to convert to) from their religion.
Breaking News!: Unions will be reformed!
The Ranger Ravine
Quote Quote
Reply Reply
Quick Quote Quick Quote
Quick Reply Quick Reply
Genetic_Code
Level 42
Karnov
Posts: 13994
Nov 10, 2012 9:47 pm PT
I've discussed atheism with a co-worker of mine. She said she believed that there's something out there. She has since said that she's an atheist, but I think she's a wishy-washy type, no offense to her. She's more of an atheist lite.

--

Man should be good not out of the fear of God but out of the love of himself.

Life is not about merely surviving but about doing something that makes it worthwhile.

The Atheism Union

Quote Quote
Reply Reply
Quick Quote Quick Quote
Quick Reply Quick Reply
junglist101
Level 42
Karnov
Posts: 5007
User is Online
Nov 12, 2012 2:09 am PT

Android339 wrote:
I don't mean to be that guy, but I think the drug culture in certain areas has been helpful in opening up people's eyes to certain facets of their religious beliefs. During my first year of college I smoked a lot of pot, and have done acid three times. It's not that these drugs have led me away from any religious beliefs or anything, but for anybody wanting to lean away from limiting beliefs, the psychical explorations of psychedelics is helpful in fulfilling many aspects of what religion was supposed to fill, but ended up overfilling with arbitrary rules and odd dogma. Psychedelic and psychical self-exploration is a valid alternative for those seeking a deeper meaning in life, one that doesn't involve having to know all the answers, but involves experiencing all that life has to offer through every lens possible.
People certainly find out about themselves in ways that others may not. From my own observations, what I've seen when it comes to drugs and religion, specifically Christianity, is that it creates guilt and people subsequently turn to God for help. Mostly looking to resolve the guilt and/or stop the substance abuse.

Quote Quote
Reply Reply
Quick Quote Quick Quote
Quick Reply Quick Reply
Android339
Level 28
Bionic Commando
Posts: 3516
Nov 12, 2012 7:56 am PT
junglist101 wrote:

Android339 wrote:
I don't mean to be that guy, but I think the drug culture in certain areas has been helpful in opening up people's eyes to certain facets of their religious beliefs. During my first year of college I smoked a lot of pot, and have done acid three times. It's not that these drugs have led me away from any religious beliefs or anything, but for anybody wanting to lean away from limiting beliefs, the psychical explorations of psychedelics is helpful in fulfilling many aspects of what religion was supposed to fill, but ended up overfilling with arbitrary rules and odd dogma. Psychedelic and psychical self-exploration is a valid alternative for those seeking a deeper meaning in life, one that doesn't involve having to know all the answers, but involves experiencing all that life has to offer through every lens possible.
People certainly find out about themselves in ways that others may not. From my own observations, what I've seen when it comes to drugs and religion, specifically Christianity, is that it creates guilt and people subsequently turn to God for help. Mostly looking to resolve the guilt and/or stop the substance abuse.


I've heard of such things happening with heroin, cocaine, pills, and maybe, to a limited extent, marijuana (though it's not that hard to quit it because it's not chemically addictive), but not particularly psychedelics (which also aren't chemically addictive), unless one has a bad trip. I've only ever had good trips (set and setting), but that's because I knew ahead of time that the mindset one is in when one takes the psychedelic is an important factor in the outcome of the trip. Also, there's a reason that psychedelics have been used by many cultures for spiritual reasons for thousands of years.

Communist

"The confused mass of rules of conduct called law, which has been bequeathed to us by slavery, serfdom, feudalism, and royalty, has taken the place of those stone monsters, before whom human victims used to be immolated, and whom slavish savages dared not even touch lest they should be slain by the thunderbolts of heaven." - Peter Kropotkin

.

.

Libertarian

A consistent libertarian "must oppose private ownership of the means of production and wage slavery, which is a component of this system, as incompatible with the principle that labor must be freely undertaken and under the control of hte producer." - Noam Chomsky

Quote Quote
Reply Reply
Quick Quote Quick Quote
Quick Reply Quick Reply
Android339
Level 28
Bionic Commando
Posts: 3516
Nov 12, 2012 7:58 am PT
wis3boi wrote:

Android339 wrote:
I don't mean to be that guy, but I think the drug culture in certain areas has been helpful in opening up people's eyes to certain facets of their religious beliefs. During my first year of college I smoked a lot of pot, and have done acid three times. It's not that these drugs have led me away from any religious beliefs or anything, but for anybody wanting to lean away from limiting beliefs, the psychical explorations of psychedelics is helpful in fulfilling many aspects of what religion was supposed to fill, but ended up overfilling with arbitrary rules and odd dogma. Psychedelic and psychical self-exploration is a valid alternative for those seeking a deeper meaning in life, one that doesn't involve having to know all the answers, but involves experiencing all that life has to offer through every lens possible.

Well you know what they say....religion is the opium of the people

KARL%252520mARX-8x6.jpg


Yeah, but in the case of psychedelics, there's no third party telling you how to fulfill those aspects of yourself, whereas with psychedelics it's purely experiential and you take from it what you personally take from it.

Communist

"The confused mass of rules of conduct called law, which has been bequeathed to us by slavery, serfdom, feudalism, and royalty, has taken the place of those stone monsters, before whom human victims used to be immolated, and whom slavish savages dared not even touch lest they should be slain by the thunderbolts of heaven." - Peter Kropotkin

.

.

Libertarian

A consistent libertarian "must oppose private ownership of the means of production and wage slavery, which is a component of this system, as incompatible with the principle that labor must be freely undertaken and under the control of hte producer." - Noam Chomsky

Quote Quote
Reply Reply
Quick Quote Quick Quote
Quick Reply Quick Reply
RationalAtheist  
Level 42
Karnov
Posts: 4620
User is Online
Nov 12, 2012 8:53 am PT
junglist101 wrote:

People certainly find out about themselves in ways that others may not. From my own observations, what I've seen when it comes to drugs and religion, specifically Christianity, is that it creates guilt and people subsequently turn to God for help. Mostly looking to resolve the guilt and/or stop the substance abuse.

The 12 Step Program is a common "cure" for alcoholism (which is the most destructive and pervasive drug in my estimation, as well as statistically speaking). It is found at Alcoholics Anonymous groups and has God built into it:

1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol - that our lives had become unmanageable.

2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.

3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.

4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.

5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.

6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.

7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.

8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.

9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.

10. Continued to take personal inventory, and when we were wrong, promptly admitted it.

11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.

12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs. 

If I was an alcolholic in need of some help, I think I'd prefer to remain drunk, rather than be confronted with that!

In my younger days, I had one of many psychedelic experiences with a group of friends and one of them never recovered from it. He developed a serious schizophrenic condition (that was probably underlying) triggered by his experiences on the trip.



Edited on Nov 12, 2012 8:55 am PT


"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.” - Stephen Roberts
GAMESPOT ATHEISM UNION - here for religious debate

Quote Quote
Reply Reply
Quick Quote Quick Quote
Quick Reply Quick Reply
junglist101
Level 42
Karnov
Posts: 5007
User is Online
Nov 13, 2012 1:12 am PT

Android339 wrote:
junglist101 wrote:

Android339 wrote:
I don't mean to be that guy, but I think the drug culture in certain areas has been helpful in opening up people's eyes to certain facets of their religious beliefs. During my first year of college I smoked a lot of pot, and have done acid three times. It's not that these drugs have led me away from any religious beliefs or anything, but for anybody wanting to lean away from limiting beliefs, the psychical explorations of psychedelics is helpful in fulfilling many aspects of what religion was supposed to fill, but ended up overfilling with arbitrary rules and odd dogma. Psychedelic and psychical self-exploration is a valid alternative for those seeking a deeper meaning in life, one that doesn't involve having to know all the answers, but involves experiencing all that life has to offer through every lens possible.
People certainly find out about themselves in ways that others may not. From my own observations, what I've seen when it comes to drugs and religion, specifically Christianity, is that it creates guilt and people subsequently turn to God for help. Mostly looking to resolve the guilt and/or stop the substance abuse.
I've heard of such things happening with heroin, cocaine, pills, and maybe, to a limited extent, marijuana (though it's not that hard to quit it because it's not chemically addictive), but not particularly psychedelics (which also aren't chemically addictive), unless one has a bad trip. I've only ever had good trips (set and setting), but that's because I knew ahead of time that the mindset one is in when one takes the psychedelic is an important factor in the outcome of the trip. Also, there's a reason that psychedelics have been used by many cultures for spiritual reasons for thousands of years.
I can see your an advocate

Again, everyone's different. I've had both positive and negative effects from drugs, unfortunately mostly negative. In my personal experience with weed it was quite difficult to quit. It took me several attempts before I could. I think it would be fair to say that it is best not to do any drug on a regular basis, including alcohol. Never took acid although I've tried mushrooms. Not much of a spiritual experience for me. The most profoundly any drug has changed me was the first few times I took ecstasy. Mostly in a positive way although like most things too much or too often is never good.

Quote Quote
Reply Reply
Quick Quote Quick Quote
Quick Reply Quick Reply
junglist101
Level 42
Karnov
Posts: 5007
User is Online
Nov 13, 2012 1:20 am PT

RationalAtheist wrote:
junglist101 wrote:

People certainly find out about themselves in ways that others may not. From my own observations, what I've seen when it comes to drugs and religion, specifically Christianity, is that it creates guilt and people subsequently turn to God for help. Mostly looking to resolve the guilt and/or stop the substance abuse.

The 12 Step Program is a common "cure" for alcoholism (which is the most destructive and pervasive drug in my estimation, as well as statistically speaking). It is found at Alcoholics Anonymous groups and has God built into it:

1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol - that our lives had become unmanageable.

2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.

3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.

4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.

5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.

6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.

7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.

8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.

9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.

10. Continued to take personal inventory, and when we were wrong, promptly admitted it.

11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.

12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.

If I was an alcolholic in need of some help, I think I'd prefer to remain drunk, rather than be confronted with that!

In my younger days, I had one of many psychedelic experiences with a group of friends and one of them never recovered from it. He developed a serious schizophrenic condition (that was probably underlying) triggered by his experiences on the trip.
It's amazing how flawed that list is. What's even more amazing is that I could see myself when I was a Christian, looking at that list, and seeing absolutely no problem with it. In fact, I probably would have told you that it seems like pretty sound advice to me.

Just curious, what (if any) was your religious affiliation?

Quote Quote
Reply Reply
Quick Quote Quick Quote
Quick Reply Quick Reply
Zeviander  
Level 32
Snake Eater
Posts: 9148
Nov 14, 2012 3:23 pm PT
Also note, the AA program is used by several states in the US as mandatory during sentencing for drunk driving.

So much for the separation of church and state.

|| AMD A8-4500M @ 1.9 GHz || AMD Radeon HD 7460G || 8 GB DDR3 || 750 GB HDD ||
The Atheism Union || last.fm || Try avast! for free!
Quote Quote
Reply Reply
Quick Quote Quick Quote
Quick Reply Quick Reply
New Message
Next Page Next
Previous Page
Page 1
Forums - The Atheism Union Board - Have you ever converted anyone to atheis ...