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Forums - The Atheism Union Board - Do you think it's OK for a religion to i ...

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Do you think it's OK for a religion to i ...
dracula_16
Level 64
Easter Egg
Posts: 14993
Jun 10, 2010 6:32 am PT

Throughout history, we've seen that religions have influenced laws of some nations/cities/towns at one time or another. In some cases, they continue to do so. As far as I know, many states in the middle east derive some of their laws from Islam (such as Sharia Law). While you could say that beheadings, whippings and hangings are purely detrimental, I think it would be unfair to say that religion(s) is incapable of providing beneficial laws and/or outlooks.

An ancient chinese teacher named Confucius [who founded Confucianism] developed a system of ethics that has had a tremendous effect on chinese culture; which probably includes laws. In his teachings, Confucius stressed the importance of honesty, justice and loyalty.

So what do you guys think; is it OK for a religion to influence laws?

Teenaged  
Level 63
Big Smoke
Posts: 32871
User is Online
Jun 10, 2010 6:33 am PT

Unchecked? No.

Just influencing it if it has any constructive ideas and suggestions? Why not.

Close My Eyes and Burn

sagat

Flouting the maxim of quality is always fun!

Android339
Level 28
Bionic Commando
Posts: 3516
Jun 10, 2010 8:20 am PT
In a democracy it's inevitable that laws are going to be influenced by religion to some degree or another. While the government operates under the idea of popular sovereignty, and the Will of the People, as long as a portion of that people include those who are religiously-minded, then laws can very well be influenced by religion. And I know that the purpose of this topic was not to consider whether they are influenced, but if it's okay, but here I'm saying that religiously-influenced laws are influenced and introduced in the same way as those which are not, and as long as such laws are upheld by the majority, then such laws are justified. This is from the reference point of America, though.

Communist

"The confused mass of rules of conduct called law, which has been bequeathed to us by slavery, serfdom, feudalism, and royalty, has taken the place of those stone monsters, before whom human victims used to be immolated, and whom slavish savages dared not even touch lest they should be slain by the thunderbolts of heaven." - Peter Kropotkin

.

.

Libertarian

A consistent libertarian "must oppose private ownership of the means of production and wage slavery, which is a component of this system, as incompatible with the principle that labor must be freely undertaken and under the control of hte producer." - Noam Chomsky

RationalAtheist  
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Jun 10, 2010 8:23 am PT
dracula_16 wrote:

Throughout history, we've seen that religions have influenced laws of some nations/cities/towns at one time or another. In some cases, they continue to do so. As far as I know, many states in the middle east derive some of their laws from Islam (such as Sharia Law). While you could say that beheadings, whippings and hangings are purely detrimental, I think it would be unfair to say that religion(s) is incapable of providing beneficial laws and/or outlooks.

An ancient chinese teacher named Confucius [who founded Confucianism] developed a system of ethics that has had a tremendous effect on chinese culture; which probably includes laws. In his teachings, Confucius stressed the importance of honesty, justice and loyalty.

So what do you guys think; is it OK for a religion to influence laws?

I think relgions mirror human desires, morals and fears, so they inherit such doctrine from social common-law. For example,. people believed in honesty, justice and loyalty well before Confucious. These values represented socially successful culture.

Confucious was also a philosipher, rather than a religious apologist, so there is some debate (especially from me) as to if Conficianism is a religion.

In the UK, as in Europe, the influence of the church on law has diminished rapidly as rational arguments gained more ground and moral social wefare issues forced the church out of power centuries ago. But, as Pat Condell points out, religious consideration is still worryingly high in some spots on the Western political agenda.


"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.” - Stephen Roberts
GAMESPOT ATHEISM UNION -
here for religious debate

gameguy6700
Level 51
Alien Hominid
Posts: 12200
Jun 10, 2010 8:28 am PT

I wouldn't really call Confucianism a religion as it is far more like a philosophy.

Anyway, my beef with religion influencing laws is that religions tend to have a lot of harsh stances on trivial matters. For example, homosexuality. Is there any benefit to us as a society to ban homosexual marriages or even homosexuality? No. Yet there are many who would have us do this simply because their religion says it's wrong. As another example you've got the blue laws in some US states which make selling alcohol on Sunday illegal. To anyone but a Christian these laws seem absolutely absurd (the reason why I single out Christians is because Muslims and Jews do not view Sunday as the sabbath).

I personally can't think of a law influenced by religion that has any objective logic behind it. I know that theists love to point to their religions' stances against crimes like murder and theft as proof that all law systems owe their existence to religion, but laws against violent crime and theft are laws that you would expect to see in any society for the obvious reason that without them your society is going to crumble apart. Furthermore, most laws don't have any basis in religion (traffic laws, government regulations, trade laws, etc). All you get when you involve religion with legal decision making is a bunch of laws that enforce an incredibly arbitrary moral viewpoint that would only be agreed to have validity by followers of that particular religion.

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foxhound_fox
Level 63
Big Smoke
Posts: 81514
Jun 10, 2010 9:40 am PT
Outwardly influenced by a single religious perspective? Hell no. Influenced by the moral teachings of many perspectives and cultures to reach a happy medium with secular neutrality? Hell yes.

There are a lot of great ideas in religion... but often (read: 99.9% of the time) they are exploited for the personal gain of those offering them, i.e. most politicians with anything. So all I really have to say is "Bah! Politics..."

rn|| Playing: Demon's Souls || Reading: Solid Clues ||rn|| The Atheism Union || SEN: Zeviander || last.fm ||

Android339
Level 28
Bionic Commando
Posts: 3516
Jun 10, 2010 10:36 am PT
gameguy6700 wrote:

I personally can't think of a law influenced by religion that has any objective logic behind it

This is because the only laws influenced by religion, in your point of view, are those laws which are influenced by religion alone. I can understand your point when you say that laws such as the prohibition of murder would be found in any rational society, but that is not to say that the source of them is rationality alone and to say that religion plays no part on it would unfairly diminish the role of religion in society. Yes, some laws are both rational and religious. My point is that the social stigma in some circles that all religious laws are arbitrary restrictions on subjects such as homosexual marriage is unfair and misleading. 

Communist

"The confused mass of rules of conduct called law, which has been bequeathed to us by slavery, serfdom, feudalism, and royalty, has taken the place of those stone monsters, before whom human victims used to be immolated, and whom slavish savages dared not even touch lest they should be slain by the thunderbolts of heaven." - Peter Kropotkin

.

.

Libertarian

A consistent libertarian "must oppose private ownership of the means of production and wage slavery, which is a component of this system, as incompatible with the principle that labor must be freely undertaken and under the control of hte producer." - Noam Chomsky

RationalAtheist  
Level 42
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Jun 10, 2010 10:45 am PT
Android339 wrote:
gameguy6700 wrote:

I personally can't think of a law influenced by religion that has any objective logic behind it

This is because the only laws influenced by religion, in your point of view, are those laws which are influenced by religion alone. I can understand your point when you say that laws such as the prohibition of murder would be found in any rational society, but that is not to say that the source of them is rationality alone and to say that religion plays no part on it would unfairly diminish the role of religion in society. Yes, some laws are both rational and religious. My point is that the social stigma in some circles that all religious laws are arbitrary restrictions on subjects such as homosexual marriage is unfair and misleading.

Why do you say the role of religion is "unfairly" diminished in society. Isn't that the result of a rational response to them all?

The point you make about the arbitrary nature of religious law (i.e. homosexual marriage) being unfair and misleading doesn't seem to be supported by anything. For example, why should homosexual partnership be frowned upon, as suggested by some Christian faiths? For that matter, why is it welcomed by others (i.e. Church of England)?


"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.” - Stephen Roberts
GAMESPOT ATHEISM UNION -
here for religious debate

Android339
Level 28
Bionic Commando
Posts: 3516
Jun 10, 2010 10:55 am PT
RationalAtheist wrote:

Why do you say the role of religion is "unfairly" diminished in society. Isn't that the result of a rational response to them all?

I say it is unfairly diminished because many important laws (i.e. the prohibition of murder) are both religious and rational in nature, and yet those who are generally secular look at these laws as purely secular. I would agree that those who are generally religious look at these laws as purely religious, but that is not the case, either.

RationalAtheist wrote:

The point you make about the arbitrary nature of religious law (i.e. homosexual marriage) being unfair and misleading doesn't seem to be supported by anything. For example, why should homosexual partnership be frowned upon, as suggested by some Christian faiths? For that matter, why is it welcomed by others (i.e. Church of England)?

I was making a point to be general about the nature of religious law. I agree that there are some aspects of religious law that really have no place in a secular society, including homosexual marriage. It is misleading, however, to say that the only aspects covered by religious law are homosexual marriage, prayer in schools, and subjects of like nature. Yet religious law does cover issues such as murder, rape, and theft. Instead, however, both religious and secular citizens have a problem with claiming these laws for themselves instead of seeing them for what they are: common ground.



Edited on Jun 10, 2010 10:56 am PT

Communist

"The confused mass of rules of conduct called law, which has been bequeathed to us by slavery, serfdom, feudalism, and royalty, has taken the place of those stone monsters, before whom human victims used to be immolated, and whom slavish savages dared not even touch lest they should be slain by the thunderbolts of heaven." - Peter Kropotkin

.

.

Libertarian

A consistent libertarian "must oppose private ownership of the means of production and wage slavery, which is a component of this system, as incompatible with the principle that labor must be freely undertaken and under the control of hte producer." - Noam Chomsky

RationalAtheist  
Level 42
Karnov
Posts: 4620
User is Online
Jun 10, 2010 11:14 am PT
Android339 wrote:

I say it is unfairly diminished because many important laws (i.e. the prohibition of murder) are both religious and rational in nature, and yet those who are generally secular look at these laws as purely secular. I would agree that those who are generally religious look at these laws as purely religious, but that is not the case, either.

Many religions have condoned murder in their name, as have secular regimes. I'm not sure how your explaination related to the unfair diminishing of religion in law, aside from the global rise of rationalism.

Android339 wrote:

I was making a point to be general about the nature of religious law. I agree that there are some aspects of religious law that really have no place in a secular society, including homosexual marriage. It is misleading, however, to say that the only aspects covered by religious law are homosexual marriage, prayer in schools, and subjects of like nature. Yet religious law does cover issues such as murder, rape, and theft. Instead, however, both religious and secular citizens have a problem with claiming these laws for themselves instead of seeing them for what they are: common ground.

These laws are not common ground - since they are inherited from societal ideals. Most religions have similar social laws. If they are all right, then there are many Gods -all denying each other. If they are wrong, its because their doctrines are all constructed from common social ideals. Religions change too - no-one believed in "Mormonism" as such, before Joseph Smith.

There is a big difference between common sense and divine inspiration.


"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.” - Stephen Roberts
GAMESPOT ATHEISM UNION -
here for religious debate

gameguy6700
Level 51
Alien Hominid
Posts: 12200
Jun 10, 2010 11:19 am PT

I don't buy into the idea at all that prohibitions against murder are even partially influenced by religion. A society needs rules against damaging crimes like murder, theft, and rape or else it will not be able to function since everyone will be more concerned with their own self-defense and safety than doing anything productive. I highly doubt that there was ever a point in human history where a society existed in which it was perfectly acceptable to randomly kill other people at your leisure. Indeed, the fact that even in chimpanzee groups you see chimps punish individual members of a group for transgressions that harm the rest of the group suggests that laws arise simply due to the need to keep social order.

I would argue that when it comes to things like murder, rape, and theft that religion did not influence law at all but rather such rules come about as a result of a human predisposition against those crimes and the obvious need to prevent them in order to maintain social order. The fact that religions preach against these same things can be traced back to said predispositions as well.

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Android339
Level 28
Bionic Commando
Posts: 3516
Jun 10, 2010 11:29 am PT
So laws which are inherited from the same societal ideals are opposed to each other? That makes no sense. By your very confession that they are inherited by the same societal ideals, you admit that they come from the same source, and because they are considered doctrine by a religion and also set as law in secular courts, they are in common ground.

Communist

"The confused mass of rules of conduct called law, which has been bequeathed to us by slavery, serfdom, feudalism, and royalty, has taken the place of those stone monsters, before whom human victims used to be immolated, and whom slavish savages dared not even touch lest they should be slain by the thunderbolts of heaven." - Peter Kropotkin

.

.

Libertarian

A consistent libertarian "must oppose private ownership of the means of production and wage slavery, which is a component of this system, as incompatible with the principle that labor must be freely undertaken and under the control of hte producer." - Noam Chomsky

Android339
Level 28
Bionic Commando
Posts: 3516
Jun 10, 2010 11:30 am PT
I'm going to need your definition of religious law, because if your definition is "whatever makes the liberals mad", then we're already not on the same page.

Communist

"The confused mass of rules of conduct called law, which has been bequeathed to us by slavery, serfdom, feudalism, and royalty, has taken the place of those stone monsters, before whom human victims used to be immolated, and whom slavish savages dared not even touch lest they should be slain by the thunderbolts of heaven." - Peter Kropotkin

.

.

Libertarian

A consistent libertarian "must oppose private ownership of the means of production and wage slavery, which is a component of this system, as incompatible with the principle that labor must be freely undertaken and under the control of hte producer." - Noam Chomsky

RationalAtheist  
Level 42
Karnov
Posts: 4620
User is Online
Jun 10, 2010 11:40 am PT

Android339 wrote:
So laws which are inherited from the same societal ideals are opposed to each other? That makes no sense. By your very confession that they are inherited by the same societal ideals, you admit that they come from the same source, and because they are considered doctrine by a religion and also set as law in secular courts, they are in common ground.

It makes no sense - I didn't say it. I think religions grew as a way for societies to express their ideals.

Your "common ground" comment seems to suggest that two (or more if you include all the other religions) independent rule making authorities happily happen to co-incide. I'm saying I think there is only one way rules get created, but many ways of hijacking and claiming ownership of them.



Edited on Jun 10, 2010 11:40 am PT


"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.” - Stephen Roberts
GAMESPOT ATHEISM UNION -
here for religious debate

RationalAtheist  
Level 42
Karnov
Posts: 4620
User is Online
Jun 10, 2010 11:43 am PT

Android339 wrote:
I'm going to need your definition of religious law, because if your definition is "whatever makes the liberals mad", then we're already not on the same page.

I have no idea of what your talking about. Isn't it you who's involving religion with law?


"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.” - Stephen Roberts
GAMESPOT ATHEISM UNION -
here for religious debate

Android339
Level 28
Bionic Commando
Posts: 3516
Jun 10, 2010 11:46 am PT
RationalAtheist wrote:

It makes no sense - I didn't say it. I think religions grew as a way for societies to express their ideals.

Your "common ground" comment seems to suggest that two (or more if you include all the other religions) independent rule making authorities happily happen to co-incide. I'm saying I think there is only one way rules get created, but many ways of hijacking them.

I'm sure the rules of one society did not influence the rules of another on a completely different continent. I am not talking aobut how rules are made, in any case. I am talking about the present. I am talking about clearing up this rift between religoius and secular citizens that has become so annoying. Can we not agree that the Law of Moses prohibits murder, and so does the United States government? Is the Law of Moses a religious text? Yes. In order to be a Jew, must one believe that murder is wrong? Yes. What makes this text not religious? If it is not religious, then it is a religious text supporting a secular ideal, which means religion must not always be opposed to secularism. There are aspects of religious law, however, which are also included in religious texts, that support laws which have no place in a secular society. I acknowledge this.

Communist

"The confused mass of rules of conduct called law, which has been bequeathed to us by slavery, serfdom, feudalism, and royalty, has taken the place of those stone monsters, before whom human victims used to be immolated, and whom slavish savages dared not even touch lest they should be slain by the thunderbolts of heaven." - Peter Kropotkin

.

.

Libertarian

A consistent libertarian "must oppose private ownership of the means of production and wage slavery, which is a component of this system, as incompatible with the principle that labor must be freely undertaken and under the control of hte producer." - Noam Chomsky

Android339
Level 28
Bionic Commando
Posts: 3516
Jun 10, 2010 11:47 am PT
RationalAtheist wrote:

Android339 wrote:
I'm going to need your definition of religious law, because if your definition is "whatever makes the liberals mad", then we're already not on the same page.

I have no idea of what your talking about. Isn't it you who's involving religion with law?

 

By religious law, I mean the social laws of religious texts. Not law in the United States that might be considered religious.

Communist

"The confused mass of rules of conduct called law, which has been bequeathed to us by slavery, serfdom, feudalism, and royalty, has taken the place of those stone monsters, before whom human victims used to be immolated, and whom slavish savages dared not even touch lest they should be slain by the thunderbolts of heaven." - Peter Kropotkin

.

.

Libertarian

A consistent libertarian "must oppose private ownership of the means of production and wage slavery, which is a component of this system, as incompatible with the principle that labor must be freely undertaken and under the control of hte producer." - Noam Chomsky

ghoklebutter  
Level 56
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Jun 10, 2010 11:53 am PT
I don't see a problem with it.

gameguy6700
Level 51
Alien Hominid
Posts: 12200
Jun 10, 2010 12:00 pm PT

Android339 wrote:
So laws which are inherited from the same societal ideals are opposed to each other? That makes no sense. By your very confession that they are inherited by the same societal ideals, you admit that they come from the same source, and because they are considered doctrine by a religion and also set as law in secular courts, they are in common ground.

Common ground =/= influence

This topic is talking about when religion influences law, not when they manage to come to the same conclusion. My point was that laws against rape, murder, theft, etc. are not inherited from religion like you were saying earlier but rather are inherited from societal ideals like you are saying now.

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Android339
Level 28
Bionic Commando
Posts: 3516
Jun 10, 2010 12:12 pm PT
gameguy6700 wrote:

Android339 wrote:
So laws which are inherited from the same societal ideals are opposed to each other? That makes no sense. By your very confession that they are inherited by the same societal ideals, you admit that they come from the same source, and because they are considered doctrine by a religion and also set as law in secular courts, they are in common ground.

Common ground =/= influence

This topic is talking about when religion influences law, not when they manage to come to the same conclusion. My point was that laws against rape, murder, theft, etc. are not inherited from religion like you were saying earlier but rather are inherited from societal ideals like you are saying now.

I was not talking about inheritance of law in any case in my original point. This is because I was talking about the present day. I did not say that laws against rape, murder, or whatever, were inherited from religion, although that point could be made to a degree, if you consider that religion applied societal ideals in a more structured format in times like those of the ancient Hebrews. They are societal ideals shared by both religious law and secular law.

And I don't remember saying that common ground equalled influence. I don't know what you mean by that, anyway. And I understand the purpose of the topic, but conversations naturally go on to other various and relevant paths.

Communist

"The confused mass of rules of conduct called law, which has been bequeathed to us by slavery, serfdom, feudalism, and royalty, has taken the place of those stone monsters, before whom human victims used to be immolated, and whom slavish savages dared not even touch lest they should be slain by the thunderbolts of heaven." - Peter Kropotkin

.

.

Libertarian

A consistent libertarian "must oppose private ownership of the means of production and wage slavery, which is a component of this system, as incompatible with the principle that labor must be freely undertaken and under the control of hte producer." - Noam Chomsky

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