Christianity is a religion that teaches that salvation can not be earned-- but that it is a free gift that someone gets by faith (you can find that in Ephesians 2:8-9). It's true that the best way to for someone demonstrate their faith is by acting on it, but those verses clearly outline that no amount of good works will get you into heaven.
Religions like Buddhism and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints both teach of salvation that is entirely based on good works. To me, this seems a lot like getting a donkey to walk forward by hanging a carrot in front of its face and yanking the carrot away when it tries to eat it. It's entirely possible for a buddhist or mormon to do something out of the goodness of their own heart, but doesn't that metaphorical carrot make it seem like those religions are promoting disingenuous goodness?
In the new testament, Jesus said many things about how to treat others, but he never said that those things will give his followers a ticket to heaven. Therefore, doesn't it seem like Christianity is encouraging goodness from your own heart rather than tempting you with a metaphorical carrot in front of your face? I'm not saying that christians are better people than buddhists or mormons-- this is purely a theological issue.
I think it depends on which Christian denomination you're looking at. Some of seem to think that though you can't earn your way into Heaven, you can earn your way out of Hell. In other words, though no amount of good can get you into Heaven, you still have to do all that good, or you will go to Hell. In that situation, you're back to self-serving goodness again.
Being a Buddhist scholar myself, I can tell you that many ideas within "theoretical" Buddhism* don't use the "metaphorical carrot" to encourage followers to do good things. I haven't been keeping fresh on my Buddhism recently, but I can tell you that the Buddha encouraged people to do good works not for themselves, no amount of karma is going to help you reach enlightenment. Although, as a Buddhist scholar I can also tell you that many Buddhist sects have evolved into very much the metaphorical carrot today, Theravada in particular.
Only men could be enlightened for a time (up until 1500 CE in the Theravada tradition), and if you were born a woman, you could join the monastic order, but you were less than a man in terms of value. The Buddha himself taught that men were of superior birth, and it took a woman's insistence to convince him to allow women into the monastic order. The best way to reach enlightenment if you weren't a monastic, was to give food and money to the monastics in order to build enough good karma to become reborn into a family that allowed you to become a monastic. Although, some sects of Mahayana in particular taught that enlightenment was something your could reach in this lifetime, and also they have the Bodhisattva ideal, which embodies selflessness.
I personally like the idea of religions teaching works for salvation. I understand that accruing "heaven credits" could be considered selfish, but in Hinduism in particular, Krishna taught that any good deed that was done in expectance of reward did not beget good karma; it was only the deed that was done without expectance of any kind that begot good karma... and this is the idea I support, even though I am not Hindu, nor do I believe in karma (at least, the religious/supernatural idea of it) or Krishna. This is also, from my understanding, the idea that many Catholics support as well.
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*Note: I call it "theoretical" Buddhism because most Buddhists never put it into practice, just preached it. Much like Communism.
I understand that accruing "heaven credits" could be considered selfish, but in Hinduism in particular, Krishna taught that any good deed that was done in expectance of reward did not beget good karma; it was only the deed that was done without expectance of any kind that begot good karma... and this is the idea I support, even though I am not Hindu, nor do I believe in karma (at least, the religious/supernatural idea of it) or Krishna. This is also, from my understanding, the idea that many Catholics support as well.
Not only Catholics, a lot of Lutheran teachers say the same thing. I think it all goes back to those verses in the beginning of Matthew's 6th chapter, "when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving may be in secret".
Basically, people should be doing good because they want to do good, not because they want to look good.
I understand that accruing "heaven credits" could be considered selfish, but in Hinduism in particular, Krishna taught that any good deed that was done in expectance of reward did not beget good karma; it was only the deed that was done without expectance of any kind that begot good karma... and this is the idea I support, even though I am not Hindu, nor do I believe in karma (at least, the religious/supernatural idea of it) or Krishna. This is also, from my understanding, the idea that many Catholics support as well.
Not only Catholics, a lot of Lutheran teachers say the same thing. I think it all goes back to those verses in the beginning of Matthew's 6th chapter, "when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving may be in secret". Basically, people should be doing good because they want to do good, not because they want to look good.
Catholics? Are you sure? For starters, this thread in the CU tends to state otherwise to me! I raised the issue there as being an ideological sticking-point for an atheist conversion.
How is any of this works or faith thing anything else than pure self-indulgence? It's all done for your own sweet passage to heaven (the great carrot in the sky).
And well done on the scholarship, Foxhound!
Edited on Jun 6, 2010 4:24 pm PT
"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.” - Stephen Roberts GAMESPOT ATHEISM UNION - here for religious debate
I understand that accruing "heaven credits" could be considered selfish, but in Hinduism in particular, Krishna taught that any good deed that was done in expectance of reward did not beget good karma; it was only the deed that was done without expectance of any kind that begot good karma... and this is the idea I support, even though I am not Hindu, nor do I believe in karma (at least, the religious/supernatural idea of it) or Krishna. This is also, from my understanding, the idea that many Catholics support as well.
Not only Catholics, a lot of Lutheran teachers say the same thing. I think it all goes back to those verses in the beginning of Matthew's 6th chapter, "when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving may be in secret". Basically, people should be doing good because they want to do good, not because they want to look good.
Catholics? Are you sure? For starters, this thread in the CU tends to state otherwise to me! I raised the issue there as being an ideological sticking-point for an atheist conversion.
How is any of this works or faith thing anything else than pure self-indulgence? It's all done for your own sweet passage to heaven (the great carrot in the sky).
And well done on the scholarship, Foxhound!
Are you sure you meant to ask me that? I'm talking about what Lutheran teachers/teachings say, not Catholics.
Also, skimming through that thread it looks as if it has to do with the best way for a Christian to present and spread their beliefs to others, which most of the time isn't any more self-indulgent from the Christian's point of view than volunteering hours at a local soup kitchen, homeless shelter, or donating money to charities.
Not only Catholics, a lot of Lutheran teachers say the same thing. I think it all goes back to those verses in the beginning of Matthew's 6th chapter, "when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving may be in secret". Basically, people should be doing good because they want to do good, not because they want to look good.
ChiliDragon wrote:
Are you sure you meant to ask me that? I'm talking about what Lutheran teachers/teachings say, not Catholics.
Thanks for clearing that up now for me.
ChiliDragon wrote:
Also, skimming through that thread it looks as if it has to do with the best way for a Christian to present and spread their beliefs to others, which most of the time isn't any more self-indulgent from the Christian's point of view than volunteering hours at a local soup kitchen, homeless shelter, or donating money to charities.
My "response post" in that thread (that I specifically referenced), and a response there, was about faith based verses deeds based entry to heaven. You needn't rely on Gamespot for your Catholic doctrine either.
Edited on Jun 6, 2010 5:42 pm PT
"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.” - Stephen Roberts GAMESPOT ATHEISM UNION - here for religious debate
Personally, there are two extremes I see, both of which seem equally distasteful.
The first is, as you say, the concept of earning your position in heaven by doing more good things than bad things. You know the way in which kids always act very very good in December to try and offset the stuff they did in the rest of the year? Well this is like that, only it spans the person's entire life, and the gift at the end is eternal bliss.
The second, though, is the other extreme of salvation through faith - i.e., you're saved not by what you do, or even who you are, but rather what conclusions you have reached about God and so forth. This I have always found patently absurd. Someone who is born into a Christian community will in all likelihood be Christian when they grow up, and likewise for someone born into a Muslim community, a Jewish community, a Hindu community, or any other religious community. Furthermore, I have never received a satisfactory answer from anyone who believes in this form of salvation why it even matters. I ask questions like, "What changes when you accept Jesus as your lord and savior?" and I always only get what I sometimes call Christian-speak: phrases teeming with buzzwords like "grace", "Holy Spirit", and the like, which either utterly fail to answer the question or which make subtle but incredibly weird suggestions, such as that everyone who is not a born-again Christian hates God.
The happy middle that I'm satisfied with, and which I believe was the ultimate message that Jesus intended to bring to the world, is one in which what matters is not so much what you do, but rather why you do them. I think this difference can be illustrated from the different responses that Jesus gives two people who ask two very similar questions.
In Mark 10:17-22, a rich man first tries to butter Jesus up, which doesn't go very well, and then he asks what he must do to inherit life. Jesus - who I'm sure at this point already knows what this guy's real reason for asking is - responds curtly that he should obey all of the commandments. The guy asks what they are (as though he doesn't already know) then says he has obeyed them all (yeah, right), and then Jesus then tells him - sarcastically, in my view - that he should go sell everything he has and give the money to the poor. The guy is pretty much like "wut" and leaves, refusing to do so.
In Luke 10:25-37, a very similar thing happens - a guy comes up to Jesus and asks him, again, what he must do to inherit life. This time, when Jesus asks him what is in the Law, the guy responds that one must love God and one's neighbor. At this, I think Jesus recognizes that this guy is not a hopeless case like the other guy, and simply responds that he is correct, and that doing this will cause him to live.
The biggest difference that I can see here is that the rich guy obviously wanted to just buy his way into heaven - all he was after was what he needed to spend his vast wealth on to attain divine favor. Jesus basically told him to **** off, because he recognized that this guy just didn't get it, wasn't going to get it, and really didn't even want to get it. The second guy, however, understood that it was not going through the motions that matters, but rather was the nurturing of love in one's heart that matters, and he receives a much better reception from Jesus, who recognizes that his heart really is open to the truth.
The happy middle that I'm satisfied with, and which I believe was the ultimate message that Jesus intended to bring to the world, is one in which what matters is not so much what you do, but rather why you do them.
Exactly the point I was trying to make. Thanks for spelling it out for those who didn't get it.
Exactly the point I was trying to make. Thanks for spelling it out for those who didn't get it.
Yeah, thanks Gabu. Its exactly the point I wa trying to make too! I just can't see the difference in selfishness between the techniques of entry to heaven.
"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.” - Stephen Roberts GAMESPOT ATHEISM UNION - here for religious debate
Exactly the point I was trying to make. Thanks for spelling it out for those who didn't get it.
Yeah, thanks Gabu. Its exactly the point I wa trying to make too! I just can't see the difference in selfishness between the techniques of entry to heaven.
Well, the way I always look at it is that if that's even something that concerns one, then that person is already doing it wrong. I've seen so many times when people tell me that I should first ensure my own salvation. I always ask, well, why? Does God really want me to be so selfish that my first concern ought to be my eternal destiny, and to hell with everyone else's until it is assured? How can anyone reconcile this with the statement by Jesus that he who exalts himself will be humbled? How could a greater exalting exist than the implicit statement that you deserve heaven more than the vast majority of humanity?
(And yes, of course people will give the standard born-again Christian line of "no one deserves it, but we may accept it", but this is absurd - a truly selfless individual does not accept something and is not then satisfied with everyone else not getting it if he or she truly believes they deserve it just as much.)
I have said - and I believe this is true, although I obviously can't demonstrate that it is - that if there is a God and a heaven, and if there is any individual who will not end up there in the end, then I would not choose to go either. How selfish would I have to be to be perfectly happy and to exist in eternal bliss, knowing that there are those who will never experience it, and caring absolutely not at all that this is the case? I can imagine no fate more cruel or more torturous than the eternal knowledge that I who deserved hell no less than anyone else was spared from it when others were not.
Edited on Jun 7, 2010 3:59 am PT
Edited 2 total times.
There are two important points that have not been brought up yet. The first is that according to pretty much every Christian denomination out there, it's not possible to work your way into Heaven. As humans we can never be perfect enough, and it's pointless for us to even try. The second one is that we don't have to. This is where Jesus and salvation come in; we already have reservations in he Great Heavenly Hotel beyond, so to speak. Selfishly pretending to do good things in the hopes of earning what we've been promised already doesn't exactly make a lot of sense.
There are two important points that have not been brought up yet. The first is that according to pretty much every Christian denomination out there, it's not possible to work your way into Heaven. As humans we can never be perfect enough, and it's pointless for us to even try. The second one is that we don't have to. This is where Jesus and salvation come in; we already have reservations in he Great Heavenly Hotel beyond, so to speak. Selfishly pretending to do good things in the hopes of earning what we've been promised already doesn't exactly make a lot of sense.
Isn't your first point the whole thrust of this thread?
I'm not sure about attempting to be "perfect" when being philanthropic. The satisfaction gained from helping others is surely the motivation for philanthropy, as is an objective sense of reaching a common goal. But attempting to attain something as "nebulous" and lofty as "perfection" by doing good works sounds not only selfish, but egotistical too.
I think there are demonstrable objective benefits and not just selfish ones for doing good works. I can't say the same thing for faith based activities at all. I see the pretence here is with the faithful, as they would have the selfish perfectionist hope that their piety makes them more creditable than those making an effort (for whatever reason) to help others.
"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.” - Stephen Roberts GAMESPOT ATHEISM UNION - here for religious debate
I think there are demonstrable objective benefits and not just selfish ones for doing good works. I can't say the same thing for faith based activities at all. I see the pretence here is with the faithful, as they would have the selfish perfectionist hope that their piety makes them more creditable than those making an effort (for whatever reason) to help others.
I think there are demonstrable objective benefits and not just selfish ones for doing good works. I can't say the same thing for faith based activities at all. I see the pretence here is with the faithful, as they would have the selfish perfectionist hope that their piety makes them more creditable than those making an effort (for whatever reason) to help others.
Creditable in what way, and to who?
Creditable by way of access to eternity, heaven, or whatever vision of salvation that they might have.
Creditable to themselves as I see it, but to God as they would.
"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.” - Stephen Roberts GAMESPOT ATHEISM UNION - here for religious debate
There are two important points that have not been brought up yet. The first is that according to pretty much every Christian denomination out there, it's not possible to work your way into Heaven. As humans we can never be perfect enough, and it's pointless for us to even try. The second one is that we don't have to. This is where Jesus and salvation come in; we already have reservations in he Great Heavenly Hotel beyond, so to speak. Selfishly pretending to do good things in the hopes of earning what we've been promised already doesn't exactly make a lot of sense.
Well, those are important points... if you believe that you don't need to jump through hoops in order to avoid an eternity burning in hell.
As you say, most denominations (side note: I always want to spell that as "demoninations"... Freudian slip?) believe that it's not possible to work your way into Heaven... but then they basically say that you do need to work your way into heaven; it's just that the work has absolutely nothing beneficial towards mankind whatsoever.
[The fact] you're saved not by what you do, or even who you are, but rather what conclusions you have reached about God, I have always found patently absurd.
I like this quote.
GabuEx wrote:
Does God really want me to be so selfish that my first concern ought to be my eternal destiny, and to hell with everyone else's until it is assured?
And this one.
GabuEx wrote:
How selfish would I have to be to be perfectly happy and to exist in eternal bliss, knowing that there are those who will never experience it, and caring absolutely not at all that this is the case? I can imagine no fate more cruel or more torturous than the eternal knowledge that I who deserved hell no less than anyone else was spared from it when others were not.
That sounds almost exactly like the Bodhisattva ideal from Mahayana Buddhism.
That sounds almost exactly like the Bodhisattva ideal from Mahayana Buddhism.
That's not too surprising to me; I remember I once took a faith test on Beliefnet and was informed I matched up very well with Mahayana Buddhism. I considered looking into it, but I feel that any religion properly practiced really should lead someone to the same end location, so in the end I decided that doing so would probably just be a curiosity. As I've said in the past, I would find it very hard to denounce a religious practice that inspires sincere love for all, and likewise, I would find it very hard to accept a religious practice that inspires hatred... regardless of what the religion in question is.
Edited on Jun 7, 2010 4:27 pm PT
Edited 2 total times.
That's not too surprising to me; I remember I once took a faith test on Beliefnet and was informed I matched up very well with Mahayana Buddhism. I considered looking into it, but I feel that any religion properly practiced really should lead someone to the same end location, so in the end I decided that doing so would probably just be a curiosity. As I've said in the past, I would find it very hard to denounce a religious practice that inspires sincere love for all, and likewise, I would find it very hard to accept a religious practice that inspires hatred... regardless of what the religion in question is.
Technically, Mahayana Buddhism in its original form is extinct. Only its evolutionary sects exist to this day (Tibetan, Zen, Pure Land, etc.).