A thought on the ending (Spoilers)

Avatar image for geosurface
#1 Posted by geosurface (66 posts) -

So I just finished the game and my gf and I were talking about the ending and Joel's decision.

I pointed out that I'm not entirely sure it really mattered...

Doesn't humanity face basically the same problem with or without the vaccine? Crap loads of existing infected and spores all over the place, which ultimately need to be destroyed/killed if humanity is ever going to reclaim full control of the planet.

Of course, being immune to the spores helps in that goal... and not adding to the infected numbers helps that goal too, but they have masks... and ultimately the only way to really clear up the infected is large numbers of organized, well armed people sweeping and clearing areas. That is the case with or without a vaccine! Sure, the caution levels have to be HIGHER without it, but the infected were attacking and killing Ellie just like anyone else... it's not like they don't attack people with her strain of it.

I don't believe they could successfully produce the vaccine in the necessary quantities and spread it to all the isolated, hostile, disorganized pockets of humanity anyway. And how can they be sure that it's safe? Maybe having those growths in her brain was eventually going to kill Ellie. She'd only lived 14 years so there's no way to know the long term course of that modified infection. It would be rather rash to purposefully infect everyone else with it.

So ultimately, I think Joel made the right call even if it wasn't for the right reasons (though maybe it was.)

Avatar image for ccgod
#2 Posted by ccgod (7291 posts) -
yea def didn't agree with them not asking if she would go through with the operation they just decided to kill her to give it a shot. But all those people you fought most of the game were crazed cannibals we weren't meant to eat each other lol. and as all things they would never of had a production or organization to pull off a clean up It would of been a very hard decision to let her do that if she wanted it but against her will i agree with what joel did
Avatar image for Justforvisit
#3 Posted by Justforvisit (2660 posts) -

I said it already and say it again and again:

We see the most nasty, hideous, filthy, disgusting, gutwrenching monstrous, inhuman act in this game NOT in ANY fight against the infected but at the very final stage of the game when Joel and Ellie finally reach the Fireflies.

And doing THAT for the "ultimate sake of humanity" would just have made humanity more inhuman than any infected ever could have been.

Avatar image for ColtonKappel
#4 Posted by ColtonKappel (25 posts) -

I agree.

 

I do not blame him.

 

There is NO gaurantee that a vaccine can be made from Ellie, or a mass produced cure.

 

We know she is immune, that is all.

 

I mean, Naked Mole rats are immune to cancer...IRL, not shitting you. Yet we still can't figure out why.

 

So that being said, her simply being "immune" doesn't mean shit. It could take YEARS with the best in the field, and they still may have nothing.

 

So again, I think Joel made the right call.

Avatar image for ccgod
#5 Posted by ccgod (7291 posts) -

I agree.

 

I do not blame him.

 

There is NO gaurantee that a vaccine can be made from Ellie, or a mass produced cure.

 

We know she is immune, that is all.

 

I mean, Naked Mole rats are immune to cancer...IRL, not shitting you. Yet we still can't figure out why.

 

So that being said, her simply being "immune" doesn't mean shit. It could take YEARS with the best in the field, and they still may have nothing.

 

So again, I think Joel made the right call.

ColtonKappel
I'm sure they've cured prob 90% of everything that can get us sick or kill us. HOWEVER if no one died from these we would have over population and food shortages but most importantly the powers to be would lose all that $$$ we pay for them to treat us not cure. even if they made the cure it would prob end up the same way
Avatar image for onewiththegame
#6 Posted by onewiththegame (4309 posts) -

The only reason Joel made that call at the end is because he's not over what happened to his daughter, he pretty much screws over humanity for his own selfish reasons......he's a dick

 

love the game by the way

Avatar image for theaznfish
#7 Posted by theaznfish (537 posts) -

It's not really a "he's not over his daughter's death" ending, it's more of a "you built a relationship with this little girl who is basically a 2nd daughter to you".  Like some others may have said in this game~ it's supposed to show the horrific reality of human nature in the worst circumstances in Joel's perspective.  Think about it, besides his brother Tommy (and his group at the power plant) who else really showed any support for Joel/Ellie without any reluctance or betrayal or some sort of self-interest.  Even those you helped succumbed to either the disease or killed themselves or threw you out after they assisted you.

The game doesn't leave you with a "humanity is screwed because Joel killed the fireflies", it leaves you with a realization that under whichever name- reminant military, cannibals, hunters, or fireflies, (or clickers) despite their different flags and varying motivations, they were all the same in the end.  Complete government/military control and pure anarchy were both symbolized by these groups and illustrated that in the end, neither truely worked.  People who band together and work towards a larger goal of restructuring civilization (Tommy and the power plant) without having to steal, murder or eat other people are the ones who truely deserved to go on living.  Joel's brother and those 20 families would survive with or without a vaccine from Ellie.    Even Joel and Ellie both head back to his camp to live out the rest of their days [assumably].

Avatar image for onewiththegame
#8 Posted by onewiththegame (4309 posts) -

No I feel he put his needs and wants above the needs of the many and killed Marlene in cold blood because she might come after them. It's a great ending because he acted like most people would 

Avatar image for Justforvisit
#9 Posted by Justforvisit (2660 posts) -

It's not really a "he's not over his daughter's death" ending, it's more of a "you built a relationship with this little girl who is basically a 2nd daughter to you".  Like some others may have said in this game~ it's supposed to show the horrific reality of human nature in the worst circumstances in Joel's perspective.  Think about it, besides his brother Tommy (and his group at the power plant) who else really showed any support for Joel/Ellie without any reluctance or betrayal or some sort of self-interest.  Even those you helped succumbed to either the disease or killed themselves or threw you out after they assisted you.

The game doesn't leave you with a "humanity is screwed because Joel killed the fireflies", it leaves you with a realization that under whichever name- reminant military, cannibals, hunters, or fireflies, (or clickers) despite their different flags and varying motivations, they were all the same in the end.  Complete government/military control and pure anarchy were both symbolized by these groups and illustrated that in the end, neither truely worked.  People who band together and work towards a larger goal of restructuring civilization (Tommy and the power plant) without having to steal, murder or eat other people are the ones who truely deserved to go on living.  Joel's brother and those 20 families would survive with or without a vaccine from Ellie.    Even Joel and Ellie both head back to his camp to live out the rest of their days [assumably].

theaznfish
Well put, only that I think the Fireflies in the end with the way how they dealt are the biggest and most fearsome monsters in the whole game and are far worse and not equal to the rest.

No I feel he put his needs and wants above the needs of the many and killed Marlene in cold blood because she might come after them. It's a great ending because he acted like most people would 

onewiththegame
In my opinion he just saw how they acted and was more afraid of them than of any monster they ever encountered. I mean, come on, when a girl tries to save you and get's unconscious in the course of action, then the fireflies LITERALLY kidnap her and want to kill her. Sure, might have been for a greater good, but the way they did it is just monstrous. After 20 years of living in a effed up world and where they have managed to survive fine, even have their doctors and science hospital they COULD AT LEAST have waited 2, 3 more days to tell Ellie that they'd need to KILL HER to get the cure and give them both a chance to say goodbye to each other. But no, they snatch her like a monster and are going to kill her, and she shows along the story that she certainly doesn't want to die, she didn't expect to die in her still childful naive nature. And they are just going to do it.
Avatar image for AggrandizedUser
#10 Posted by AggrandizedUser (79 posts) -

you should stop talking to your girlfriend about video games.

Avatar image for Justforvisit
#11 Posted by Justforvisit (2660 posts) -

you should stop talking to your girlfriend about video games.

AggrandizedUser



How old are you dude? Like.....8?

Avatar image for DarcDestiny
#12 Posted by DarcDestiny (25 posts) -

        I was asking myself the same questions of, was it right? should it be the sacrifice of one for the many? Would the vaccine be enough to undo everything? Then I thought, if we knew for sure the vaccine would lead to a world without infected, then would it be worth it? Finally I thought, was Joel just being selfish, because he couldn't lose another kid? Then I realized I was asking the wrong questions. I was over thinking it.

        Ask yourself these questions. If you were Joel and you went through everything they went through together, what would you do? Now picture that it's not Ellie but someone you love? Now a real life scenario, Someone comes to you and says, someone you love without equal has brain cancer, but they need no treatment. It seems something in their dna mutated the cancerous cells and they are releasing a fluid that seems to increase the bodies natural healing 3 fold. Essentially saying they will live a full life with no sickness. Then say Your loved one is the cure to cancer and possibly other diseases. But the tumor is inside the brain, and the loved one wouldn't survive surgery, but would save many others. What would you do?

        As I thought about this I realized, I didn't even have to go that far, by that point in the game I cared for her in such a real way, just as Joel does. When I realised that, then saving Ellie was an easy decision and I couldn't believe I had to think about it. This makes it the most human ending in any game I have experienced.

        It shows that, in life, when it comes to emotions, if we love someone enough, there is no line we will not cross to save them. It is scary to think what you would do, but if it was my daughter's life on the line. It wouldn't be a choice, I wouldn't hesitate or have to think about it. Joel shows the decision you would really make. Then lying to her removed the crushing weight of being the cure and also lets her be happy and not feel guilty for it. Joel has to live with that lie, an easy price to pay. Lying to protect your kid is parent 101. Again the game shows, people will do whatever needs to be done, to protect those they love...   

Avatar image for Justforvisit
#13 Posted by Justforvisit (2660 posts) -

I was asking myself the same questions of, was it right? should it be the sacrifice of one for the many? Would the vaccine be enough to undo everything? Then I thought, if we knew for sure the vaccine would lead to a world without infected, then would it be worth it? Finally I thought, was Joel just being selfish, because he couldn't lose another kid? Then I realized I was asking the wrong questions. I was over thinking it.

Ask yourself these questions. If you were Joel and you went through everything they went through together, what would you do? Now picture that it's not Ellie but someone you love? Now a real life scenario, Someone comes to you and says, someone you love without equal has brain cancer, but they need no treatment. It seems something in their dna mutated the cancerous cells and they are releasing a fluid that seems to increase the bodies natural healing 3 fold. Essentially saying they will live a full life with no sickness. Then say Your loved one is the cure to cancer and possibly other diseases. But the tumor is inside the brain, and the loved one wouldn't survive surgery, but would save many others. What would you do?

As I thought about this I realized, I didn't even have to go that far, by that point in the game I cared for her in such a real way, just as Joel does. When I realised that, then saving Ellie was an easy decision and I couldn't believe I had to think about it. This makes it the most human ending in any game I have experienced.

It shows that, in life, when it comes to emotions, if we love someone enough, there is no line we will not cross to save them. It is scary to think what you would do, but if it was my daughter's life on the line. It wouldn't be a choice, I wouldn't hesitate or have to think about it. Joel shows the decision you would really make. Then lying to her removed the crushing weight of being the cure and also lets her be happy and not feel guilty for it. Joel has to live with that lie, an easy price to pay. Lying to protect your kid is parent 101. Again the game shows, people will do whatever needs to be done, to protect those they love...

DarcDestiny



Very well put, I can totally agree with this :)

Avatar image for Pitthepunisher
#14 Posted by Pitthepunisher (152 posts) -

The ending is so powerful since there is no moral right and wrong. 

 

Is Joel being selfish, or is he putting the girl first?

Is one life worth the possibility of saving thousands?

Does the fact that a cure isn't guarenteed change that?

 

Those questions don't have a right and wrong answer; this is not a good vs evil or right vs wrong decision, it is a decision that reflects on the moral conscience of the characters, and those of the gamer.

Avatar image for Agarwel
#15 Posted by Agarwel (25 posts) -

The mail problem I had with ending is that when you have somebody who is infected but immune with the spores that attacks brain. And if you lead him to the hospital with doctors and lab equipment. And there is nobody else this special and it is so far only promise of the cure for whole mankind, you must kind of expect, they will experiment with them. And they will put needs of the many before needs of the one.

So for me his decision just made the whole game nonsense. He spent one whole year leading her to the doctors to run experiments on her. Just so he can beat them because he does not want them to experiment on her? I mean - what a waste of time?

Avatar image for Justforvisit
#16 Posted by Justforvisit (2660 posts) -

The mail problem I had with ending is that when you have somebody who is infected but immune with the spores that attacks brain. And if you lead him to the hospital with doctors and lab equipment. And there is nobody else this special and it is so far only promise of the cure for whole mankind, you must kind of expect, they will experiment with them. And they will put needs of the many before needs of the one.

So for me his decision just made the whole game nonsense. He spent one whole year leading her to the doctors to run experiments on her. Just so he can beat them because he does not want them to experiment on her? I mean - what a waste of time?

Agarwel



He expected that they would do experiments. But it's not until the end where Marlene tells him that they need to KILL her. Also they way they treat them in the end shows that those selfish guys can't be the saviours as well.

Avatar image for onewiththegame
#17 Posted by onewiththegame (4309 posts) -

        I was asking myself the same questions of, was it right? should it be the sacrifice of one for the many? Would the vaccine be enough to undo everything? Then I thought, if we knew for sure the vaccine would lead to a world without infected, then would it be worth it? Finally I thought, was Joel just being selfish, because he couldn't lose another kid? Then I realized I was asking the wrong questions. I was over thinking it.

        Ask yourself these questions. If you were Joel and you went through everything they went through together, what would you do? Now picture that it's not Ellie but someone you love? Now a real life scenario, Someone comes to you and says, someone you love without equal has brain cancer, but they need no treatment. It seems something in their dna mutated the cancerous cells and they are releasing a fluid that seems to increase the bodies natural healing 3 fold. Essentially saying they will live a full life with no sickness. Then say Your loved one is the cure to cancer and possibly other diseases. But the tumor is inside the brain, and the loved one wouldn't survive surgery, but would save many others. What would you do?

        As I thought about this I realized, I didn't even have to go that far, by that point in the game I cared for her in such a real way, just as Joel does. When I realised that, then saving Ellie was an easy decision and I couldn't believe I had to think about it. This makes it the most human ending in any game I have experienced.

        It shows that, in life, when it comes to emotions, if we love someone enough, there is no line we will not cross to save them. It is scary to think what you would do, but if it was my daughter's life on the line. It wouldn't be a choice, I wouldn't hesitate or have to think about it. Joel shows the decision you would really make. Then lying to her removed the crushing weight of being the cure and also lets her be happy and not feel guilty for it. Joel has to live with that lie, an easy price to pay. Lying to protect your kid is parent 101. Again the game shows, people will do whatever needs to be done, to protect those they love...   

DarcDestiny

 

Yes I would give up someone I love to cure cancer

Avatar image for Justforvisit
#18 Posted by Justforvisit (2660 posts) -

[QUOTE="DarcDestiny"]

I was asking myself the same questions of, was it right? should it be the sacrifice of one for the many? Would the vaccine be enough to undo everything? Then I thought, if we knew for sure the vaccine would lead to a world without infected, then would it be worth it? Finally I thought, was Joel just being selfish, because he couldn't lose another kid? Then I realized I was asking the wrong questions. I was over thinking it.

Ask yourself these questions. If you were Joel and you went through everything they went through together, what would you do? Now picture that it's not Ellie but someone you love? Now a real life scenario, Someone comes to you and says, someone you love without equal has brain cancer, but they need no treatment. It seems something in their dna mutated the cancerous cells and they are releasing a fluid that seems to increase the bodies natural healing 3 fold. Essentially saying they will live a full life with no sickness. Then say Your loved one is the cure to cancer and possibly other diseases. But the tumor is inside the brain, and the loved one wouldn't survive surgery, but would save many others. What would you do?

As I thought about this I realized, I didn't even have to go that far, by that point in the game I cared for her in such a real way, just as Joel does. When I realised that, then saving Ellie was an easy decision and I couldn't believe I had to think about it. This makes it the most human ending in any game I have experienced.

It shows that, in life, when it comes to emotions, if we love someone enough, there is no line we will not cross to save them. It is scary to think what you would do, but if it was my daughter's life on the line. It wouldn't be a choice, I wouldn't hesitate or have to think about it. Joel shows the decision you would really make. Then lying to her removed the crushing weight of being the cure and also lets her be happy and not feel guilty for it. Joel has to live with that lie, an easy price to pay. Lying to protect your kid is parent 101. Again the game shows, people will do whatever needs to be done, to protect those they love...

onewiththegame

Yes I would give up someone I love to cure cancer



But if they clearly showed the will to live and still have plans what to do in life?

Avatar image for DarcDestiny
#22 Posted by DarcDestiny (25 posts) -

[QUOTE="DarcDestiny"]

        I was asking myself the same questions of, was it right? should it be the sacrifice of one for the many? Would the vaccine be enough to undo everything? Then I thought, if we knew for sure the vaccine would lead to a world without infected, then would it be worth it? Finally I thought, was Joel just being selfish, because he couldn't lose another kid? Then I realized I was asking the wrong questions. I was over thinking it.

        Ask yourself these questions. If you were Joel and you went through everything they went through together, what would you do? Now picture that it's not Ellie but someone you love? Now a real life scenario, Someone comes to you and says, someone you love without equal has brain cancer, but they need no treatment. It seems something in their dna mutated the cancerous cells and they are releasing a fluid that seems to increase the bodies natural healing 3 fold. Essentially saying they will live a full life with no sickness. Then say Your loved one is the cure to cancer and possibly other diseases. But the tumor is inside the brain, and the loved one wouldn't survive surgery, but would save many others. What would you do?

        As I thought about this I realized, I didn't even have to go that far, by that point in the game I cared for her in such a real way, just as Joel does. When I realised that, then saving Ellie was an easy decision and I couldn't believe I had to think about it. This makes it the most human ending in any game I have experienced.

        It shows that, in life, when it comes to emotions, if we love someone enough, there is no line we will not cross to save them. It is scary to think what you would do, but if it was my daughter's life on the line. It wouldn't be a choice, I wouldn't hesitate or have to think about it. Joel shows the decision you would really make. Then lying to her removed the crushing weight of being the cure and also lets her be happy and not feel guilty for it. Joel has to live with that lie, an easy price to pay. Lying to protect your kid is parent 101. Again the game shows, people will do whatever needs to be done, to protect those they love...   

onewiththegame

 

Yes I would give up someone I love to cure cancer

 

 

I'm sorry you can say that... I hope you get to experience what it's like to love someone as much as I was talking about.

Avatar image for DaRq_MiNoS
#23 Posted by DaRq_MiNoS (589 posts) -

Point #1 The Fireflies are monsters. I wouldn't want them to get the cure because then it would be them rebuilding society. The right thing would be for them to ask her. You know she'd say yes and then she could be remembered as a hero. Instead, they just grab her and try to rip her brain up. Because of all this, it's pretty easy to forgive Joel instead of saying "he betrayed humanity!"

Point #2 Going back to the original post: if they had the cure, they wouldn't necessarily have to sweep up the infected anyway. They could just wait them out until they all just died out in the wild, because there wouldn't be any new ones anymore... unless the infected can reproduce? wouldn't that be funny.

Avatar image for brandon2802
#24 Posted by brandon2802 (1773 posts) -
I wasn't too into the medical talk, but couldn't everyone just waited till Ellie was about to die of natural causes, then harvest her brain. That way they could have worked on building up their labs so they have a place to work other than a ruin of a hospital. I don't know by the end of the game I felt like the bad guy anyway.
Avatar image for onewiththegame
#25 Posted by onewiththegame (4309 posts) -

[QUOTE="onewiththegame"]

[QUOTE="DarcDestiny"]

        I was asking myself the same questions of, was it right? should it be the sacrifice of one for the many? Would the vaccine be enough to undo everything? Then I thought, if we knew for sure the vaccine would lead to a world without infected, then would it be worth it? Finally I thought, was Joel just being selfish, because he couldn't lose another kid? Then I realized I was asking the wrong questions. I was over thinking it.

        Ask yourself these questions. If you were Joel and you went through everything they went through together, what would you do? Now picture that it's not Ellie but someone you love? Now a real life scenario, Someone comes to you and says, someone you love without equal has brain cancer, but they need no treatment. It seems something in their dna mutated the cancerous cells and they are releasing a fluid that seems to increase the bodies natural healing 3 fold. Essentially saying they will live a full life with no sickness. Then say Your loved one is the cure to cancer and possibly other diseases. But the tumor is inside the brain, and the loved one wouldn't survive surgery, but would save many others. What would you do?

        As I thought about this I realized, I didn't even have to go that far, by that point in the game I cared for her in such a real way, just as Joel does. When I realised that, then saving Ellie was an easy decision and I couldn't believe I had to think about it. This makes it the most human ending in any game I have experienced.

        It shows that, in life, when it comes to emotions, if we love someone enough, there is no line we will not cross to save them. It is scary to think what you would do, but if it was my daughter's life on the line. It wouldn't be a choice, I wouldn't hesitate or have to think about it. Joel shows the decision you would really make. Then lying to her removed the crushing weight of being the cure and also lets her be happy and not feel guilty for it. Joel has to live with that lie, an easy price to pay. Lying to protect your kid is parent 101. Again the game shows, people will do whatever needs to be done, to protect those they love...   

DarcDestiny

 

Yes I would give up someone I love to cure cancer

 

 

I'm sorry you can say that... I hope you get to experience what it's like to love someone as much as I was talking about.

I'm sorry your so Selfish I guess you haven't spent a lot of time in the cancer ward of a hospital or lost people to cancer or had cancer yourself

Avatar image for Justforvisit
#26 Posted by Justforvisit (2660 posts) -

[QUOTE="DarcDestiny"]

[QUOTE="onewiththegame"]

[QUOTE="DarcDestiny"]

I was asking myself the same questions of, was it right? should it be the sacrifice of one for the many? Would the vaccine be enough to undo everything? Then I thought, if we knew for sure the vaccine would lead to a world without infected, then would it be worth it? Finally I thought, was Joel just being selfish, because he couldn't lose another kid? Then I realized I was asking the wrong questions. I was over thinking it.

Ask yourself these questions. If you were Joel and you went through everything they went through together, what would you do? Now picture that it's not Ellie but someone you love? Now a real life scenario, Someone comes to you and says, someone you love without equal has brain cancer, but they need no treatment. It seems something in their dna mutated the cancerous cells and they are releasing a fluid that seems to increase the bodies natural healing 3 fold. Essentially saying they will live a full life with no sickness. Then say Your loved one is the cure to cancer and possibly other diseases. But the tumor is inside the brain, and the loved one wouldn't survive surgery, but would save many others. What would you do?

As I thought about this I realized, I didn't even have to go that far, by that point in the game I cared for her in such a real way, just as Joel does. When I realised that, then saving Ellie was an easy decision and I couldn't believe I had to think about it. This makes it the most human ending in any game I have experienced.

It shows that, in life, when it comes to emotions, if we love someone enough, there is no line we will not cross to save them. It is scary to think what you would do, but if it was my daughter's life on the line. It wouldn't be a choice, I wouldn't hesitate or have to think about it. Joel shows the decision you would really make. Then lying to her removed the crushing weight of being the cure and also lets her be happy and not feel guilty for it. Joel has to live with that lie, an easy price to pay. Lying to protect your kid is parent 101. Again the game shows, people will do whatever needs to be done, to protect those they love...

onewiththegame

Yes I would give up someone I love to cure cancer

I'm sorry you can say that... I hope you get to experience what it's like to love someone as much as I was talking about.

I'm sorry your so Selfish I guess you haven't spent a lot of time in the cancer ward of a hospital or lost people to cancer or had cancer yourself



Which makes you sound way more selfish by the way....

Avatar image for onewiththegame
#27 Posted by onewiththegame (4309 posts) -

[QUOTE="onewiththegame"]

[QUOTE="DarcDestiny"]

 

 

I'm sorry you can say that... I hope you get to experience what it's like to love someone as much as I was talking about.

Justforvisit

I'm sorry your so Selfish I guess you haven't spent a lot of time in the cancer ward of a hospital or lost people to cancer or had cancer yourself



Which makes you sound way more selfish by the way....

 

How is that? I would save thousands of people, your the one who said he wouldn't save anyone but the person they love 

Avatar image for Justforvisit
#28 Posted by Justforvisit (2660 posts) -

[QUOTE="Justforvisit"]

[QUOTE="onewiththegame"]

[QUOTE="DarcDestiny"]

I'm sorry you can say that... I hope you get to experience what it's like to love someone as much as I was talking about.

onewiththegame

I'm sorry your so Selfish I guess you haven't spent a lot of time in the cancer ward of a hospital or lost people to cancer or had cancer yourself



Which makes you sound way more selfish by the way....

How is that? I would save thousands of people, your the one who said he wouldn't save anyone but the person they love



Well, let's just agree that our point of views on this matter are extremely far away from each other

Avatar image for onewiththegame
#29 Posted by onewiththegame (4309 posts) -

[QUOTE="onewiththegame"]

[QUOTE="Justforvisit"]

[QUOTE="onewiththegame"]

[QUOTE="DarcDestiny"]

 

 

I'm sorry you can say that... I hope you get to experience what it's like to love someone as much as I was talking about.

Justforvisit

I'm sorry your so Selfish I guess you haven't spent a lot of time in the cancer ward of a hospital or lost people to cancer or had cancer yourself



Which makes you sound way more selfish by the way....

 

How is that? I would save thousands of people, your the one who said he wouldn't save anyone but the person they love



Well, let's just agree that our point of views on this matter are extremely far away from each other

 

I'll agree to disagree 

Avatar image for DarcDestiny
#30 Posted by DarcDestiny (25 posts) -

[QUOTE="DarcDestiny"]

[QUOTE="onewiththegame"]

[QUOTE="DarcDestiny"]

        I was asking myself the same questions of, was it right? should it be the sacrifice of one for the many? Would the vaccine be enough to undo everything? Then I thought, if we knew for sure the vaccine would lead to a world without infected, then would it be worth it? Finally I thought, was Joel just being selfish, because he couldn't lose another kid? Then I realized I was asking the wrong questions. I was over thinking it.

        Ask yourself these questions. If you were Joel and you went through everything they went through together, what would you do? Now picture that it's not Ellie but someone you love? Now a real life scenario, Someone comes to you and says, someone you love without equal has brain cancer, but they need no treatment. It seems something in their dna mutated the cancerous cells and they are releasing a fluid that seems to increase the bodies natural healing 3 fold. Essentially saying they will live a full life with no sickness. Then say Your loved one is the cure to cancer and possibly other diseases. But the tumor is inside the brain, and the loved one wouldn't survive surgery, but would save many others. What would you do?

        As I thought about this I realized, I didn't even have to go that far, by that point in the game I cared for her in such a real way, just as Joel does. When I realised that, then saving Ellie was an easy decision and I couldn't believe I had to think about it. This makes it the most human ending in any game I have experienced.

        It shows that, in life, when it comes to emotions, if we love someone enough, there is no line we will not cross to save them. It is scary to think what you would do, but if it was my daughter's life on the line. It wouldn't be a choice, I wouldn't hesitate or have to think about it. Joel shows the decision you would really make. Then lying to her removed the crushing weight of being the cure and also lets her be happy and not feel guilty for it. Joel has to live with that lie, an easy price to pay. Lying to protect your kid is parent 101. Again the game shows, people will do whatever needs to be done, to protect those they love...   

onewiththegame

 

Yes I would give up someone I love to cure cancer

 

 

I'm sorry you can say that... I hope you get to experience what it's like to love someone as much as I was talking about.

I'm sorry your so Selfish I guess you haven't spent a lot of time in the cancer ward of a hospital or lost people to cancer or had cancer yourself

 

What does anything I said have to do with me being selfish personally? I was being sincere with what I said when I replied to you and yes, I've seen what cancer does first hand last year. When my father suffered a kind of death I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy. So don't act like you know me as a person. You attacking me personally shows you don't have the maturity needed to handle this kind of discussion, so this will be my last reply to you. Take care. 

Avatar image for onewiththegame
#31 Posted by onewiththegame (4309 posts) -

[QUOTE="onewiththegame"]

[QUOTE="DarcDestiny"]

[QUOTE="onewiththegame"]

[QUOTE="DarcDestiny"]

        I was asking myself the same questions of, was it right? should it be the sacrifice of one for the many? Would the vaccine be enough to undo everything? Then I thought, if we knew for sure the vaccine would lead to a world without infected, then would it be worth it? Finally I thought, was Joel just being selfish, because he couldn't lose another kid? Then I realized I was asking the wrong questions. I was over thinking it.

        Ask yourself these questions. If you were Joel and you went through everything they went through together, what would you do? Now picture that it's not Ellie but someone you love? Now a real life scenario, Someone comes to you and says, someone you love without equal has brain cancer, but they need no treatment. It seems something in their dna mutated the cancerous cells and they are releasing a fluid that seems to increase the bodies natural healing 3 fold. Essentially saying they will live a full life with no sickness. Then say Your loved one is the cure to cancer and possibly other diseases. But the tumor is inside the brain, and the loved one wouldn't survive surgery, but would save many others. What would you do?

        As I thought about this I realized, I didn't even have to go that far, by that point in the game I cared for her in such a real way, just as Joel does. When I realised that, then saving Ellie was an easy decision and I couldn't believe I had to think about it. This makes it the most human ending in any game I have experienced.

        It shows that, in life, when it comes to emotions, if we love someone enough, there is no line we will not cross to save them. It is scary to think what you would do, but if it was my daughter's life on the line. It wouldn't be a choice, I wouldn't hesitate or have to think about it. Joel shows the decision you would really make. Then lying to her removed the crushing weight of being the cure and also lets her be happy and not feel guilty for it. Joel has to live with that lie, an easy price to pay. Lying to protect your kid is parent 101. Again the game shows, people will do whatever needs to be done, to protect those they love...   

DarcDestiny

 

Yes I would give up someone I love to cure cancer

 

 

I'm sorry you can say that... I hope you get to experience what it's like to love someone as much as I was talking about.

I'm sorry your so Selfish I guess you haven't spent a lot of time in the cancer ward of a hospital or lost people to cancer or had cancer yourself

 

What does anything I said have to do with me being selfish personally? I was being sincere with what I said when I replied to you and yes, I've seen what cancer does first hand last year. When my father suffered a kind of death I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy. So don't act like you know me as a person. You attacking me personally shows you don't have the maturity needed to handle this kind of discussion, so this will be my last reply to you. Take care. 

But it's  ok for you to act like you know me " I hope you get to experience what it's like to love someone as much as I was talking about" how would you know who I have in my life? Or who I love

i would give up someone I love or myself to cure cancer and I'm being sincer as well

Avatar image for DaDumb1
#32 Posted by DaDumb1 (3844 posts) -

First, there's no guarantee there would be a vaccine considering how incompetent the Fireflies are, as we've seen, and the fact that they're running on random no-name doctors using medical equipment outdated by at least 20 years. If they get a vaccine, there's no saying they would have had the means to mass produce it. Third, if they mass produced it, there's no way they could get it to everyone around the globe, and most likely bandits and military would wipe them out (like they've been doing) and steal the vaccine for themselves. Fourth, even if they somehow managed to get the vaccine to every surviving human, the majority of the human race is now infected, who would still be covering the globe and would have to be erradicated. Fifth, EVEN IF all that happens, would society ever really be the same? After all that, after all the horrible things people have had to do to each other to survive, and after the monsters that people have become as a result of it, is it really reasonable to expect that society as we knew it before the outbreak would ever return?

The Fireflies had good intentions, but by this point they were riding on false hope and blind optimism. If Joel had let Ellie die on that operating table, the best case scenario is that the Fireflies would have a vaccine that's totally worthless and Joel would have nothing.

Avatar image for GhostHawk196
#33 Posted by GhostHawk196 (996 posts) -
If Joel and Ellies story occurred 2 decades ago when humans have not adapted to this virus, it would have been a worthwhile sacrifice. As we can see throughout the game 2 decades after the virus outbeak it wasnt the infection that took the majority of lives anymore, it was the so called need to survive nature of other human beings. Even if they did create some vaccine it would have been absolutely pointless, the human race is not going to go back to the way they were. Theres still going to be a scarcity of rations and that in itself is already the current situation with or without the infected. Theres no economy, no government, no one who would be able to facilitate the regrowth of the human race. I had no problems with Joel giving up on the only hope on humanity but my main concern with his character was he lied to Ellie about the whole thing when she has reached a point where she trusts him deeply. I really didn't like the idea of the journey being for nothing in Ellie's eyes because of the amount of sacrifice shes been through. Problem was Joel did not derive such logical conclusions, all he wanted was not to go through the loss of a daughter the second time. Some may say he was a selfish scumbag but personally I thought given the circumstances, one could not reasonably expect him to have done anything other than what he did.
Avatar image for Justforvisit
#34 Posted by Justforvisit (2660 posts) -

If Joel and Ellies story occurred 2 decades ago when humans have not adapted to this virus, it would have been a worthwhile sacrifice. As we can see throughout the game 2 decades after the virus outbeak it wasnt the infection that took the majority of lives anymore, it was the so called need to survive nature of other human beings. Even if they did create some vaccine it would have been absolutely pointless, the human race is not going to go back to the way they were. Theres still going to be a scarcity of rations and that in itself is already the current situation with or without the infected. Theres no economy, no government, no one who would be able to facilitate the regrowth of the human race. I had no problems with Joel giving up on the only hope on humanity but my main concern with his character was he lied to Ellie about the whole thing when she has reached a point where she trusts him deeply. I really didn't like the idea of the journey being for nothing in Ellie's eyes because of the amount of sacrifice shes been through. Problem was Joel did not derive such logical conclusions, all he wanted was not to go through the loss of a daughter the second time. Some may say he was a selfish scumbag but personally I thought given the circumstances, one could not reasonably expect him to have done anything other than what he did.GhostHawk196


She gained something, a person she deeply trusts.

Also I think the lie wasn't all selfish, imagine what Ellie would feel like or go through when he would have told her the truth.

Avatar image for ndog2004-
#35 Posted by ndog2004- (35 posts) -

I pondered a little bit about the ending and at first, not just in the ending cinematic, but throughout the whole chapter, I thought he was being a selfish dick. But then I said, well, he's human, and we can't pretend to be above anyone under such consequences in which we would probably act the same way.

I think what Joel ultimately thought was that, was humanity as a whole really worth saving after having witnessed what we are capable of? I think in part he was being selfish, and he is technically a villain if he is killing off humanity, but then again, I think we can all agree that hope in humanity would probably be lost after such a journey.

I still have conflicting feelings about the ending. I kind of dislike Joel now, but then again, what would I have done? Do I actually dislike that I could potentially be the same evil bastard?

Avatar image for Sparky04
#36 Posted by Sparky04 (3390 posts) -

There are all sorts of arguments that can be made to justify why Joel saved Ellie but the truth is they don't matter to him. Even if it was a guaranteed thing that the world would be saved he still wouldn't let her die. Look at how he does not hesitate at all when he finds out what they are doing and notice how he's not trying to argue against it. The truth is that Joel finally let her into his life and she was more important to him than the rest of humanity.

Avatar image for inuyashagalo
#37 Posted by inuyashagalo (100 posts) -

First, there's no guarantee there would be a vaccine considering how incompetent the Fireflies are, as we've seen, and the fact that they're running on random no-name doctors using medical equipment outdated by at least 20 years. If they get a vaccine, there's no saying they would have had the means to mass produce it. Third, if they mass produced it, there's no way they could get it to everyone around the globe, and most likely bandits and military would wipe them out (like they've been doing) and steal the vaccine for themselves. Fourth, even if they somehow managed to get the vaccine to every surviving human, the majority of the human race is now infected, who would still be covering the globe and would have to be erradicated. Fifth, EVEN IF all that happens, would society ever really be the same? After all that, after all the horrible things people have had to do to each other to survive, and after the monsters that people have become as a result of it, is it really reasonable to expect that society as we knew it before the outbreak would ever return?

The Fireflies had good intentions, but by this point they were riding on false hope and blind optimism. If Joel had let Ellie die on that operating table, the best case scenario is that the Fireflies would have a vaccine that's totally worthless and Joel would have nothing.

DaDumb1
Yep. That's right. Some people are so worried about moral things that they forget or don't think this. However, if the debate about choosing between humanity and ellie "was real" in the story, it would've been interesting deciding about it. I still would go with ellie (just my personal opinion).
Avatar image for TreA314
#38 Posted by TreA314 (25 posts) -
True...also he became attach to elle as if she was his daughter. Awesome game and based on how the game ended it will be a second one
Avatar image for DarkRebel47
#39 Posted by DarkRebel47 (25 posts) -
If you listen to the recording you find towards the end it says that there were more like Ellie that they killed to create a vaccination, but failed to create anything. So Ellie was just going to be another victim. It seems to me that they didn't have the knowledge or equipment to truly create a vaccine. Therefore, Joel wasn't being selfish, he saved her life. Ellie should have been given the choice... not kidnapped and killed.
Avatar image for Ratsneve
#40 Posted by Ratsneve (397 posts) -

If you listen to the recording you find towards the end it says that there were more like Ellie that they killed to create a vaccination, but failed to create anything. So Ellie was just going to be another victim. It seems to me that they didn't have the knowledge or equipment to truly create a vaccine. Therefore, Joel wasn't being selfish, he saved her life. Ellie should have been given the choice... not kidnapped and killed.DarkRebel47
I arrived at my own conclusion that this would be the case--either there could be no immunity to the virus or much more than just one person.  But I don't recall this recording.  I'm starting my seccond game now so I will be looking for this toward the end (probably in the hospital).  Thanks.

[Drat--GameSpot apparently retired my avatar from Dreamfall so I must find a new one.]

Avatar image for DarkRebel47
#41 Posted by DarkRebel47 (25 posts) -

[QUOTE="DarkRebel47"]If you listen to the recording you find towards the end it says that there were more like Ellie that they killed to create a vaccination, but failed to create anything. So Ellie was just going to be another victim. It seems to me that they didn't have the knowledge or equipment to truly create a vaccine. Therefore, Joel wasn't being selfish, he saved her life. Ellie should have been given the choice... not kidnapped and killed.Ratsneve

I arrived at my own conclusion that this would be the case--either there could be no immunity to the virus or much more than just one person.  But I don't recall this recording.  I'm starting my seccond game now so I will be looking for this toward the end (probably in the hospital).  Thanks.

[Drat--GameSpot apparently retired my avatar from Dreamfall so I must find a new one.]

I may have miss spoke, I just listened to the records again and it seems like the surgeons implied there were others, but Marlene never comes right out and says it. Either way it sounds to me like they are very confident in finding a vaccine. Here is a link to where you can find all the artifacts and the recording in the Firefly lab: http://www.ign.com/wikis/the-last-of-us/Artifacts#The_Firefly_Lab
Avatar image for Ratsneve
#42 Posted by Ratsneve (397 posts) -

That's okay... It doesn't change my feeling on the subject.  Only one person immune to a virus affecting the whole world human population is like believing there is no other intelligence in the universe but here on Earth.

Avatar image for Stickman618
#43 Posted by Stickman618 (27 posts) -
If you listen to the recording you find towards the end it says that there were more like Ellie that they killed to create a vaccination, but failed to create anything. So Ellie was just going to be another victim. It seems to me that they didn't have the knowledge or equipment to truly create a vaccine. Therefore, Joel wasn't being selfish, he saved her life. Ellie should have been given the choice... not kidnapped and killed.DarkRebel47
I'm pretty sure the other "immune" was just a lie Joel told Ellie.
Avatar image for jesseandnikki
#44 Posted by jesseandnikki (4834 posts) -

 

Yes I would give up someone I love to cure cancer

onewiththegame
...but in the game universe you're letting your loved one die without them having a choice, you're unable to say "goodbye" to one another which gives closure to your relationship (something Joel didn't have with his daughter), AND they're finding a cure for a planet that is mostly dead, with only the worst, immoral beings left on the planet. Plus ALL the power is given to a militarized group, who could potentially control and oppress the entire world they save under some form of dictatorship/tyranny. It was stated in the beginning that the Fireflies wanted to reinstate the gov't...if they have all the power, who's to stop them from taking THAT too far. I can even see this happening: "We have the cure. Do as WE please or be executed/left to die".
Avatar image for Stickman618
#45 Posted by Stickman618 (27 posts) -
I think Ellie should have been given a choice.
Avatar image for Godokuno_Dan
#46 Posted by Godokuno_Dan (141 posts) -

you should stop talking to your girlfriend about video games.

AggrandizedUser

LOL. Thank you , I needed that!! Seconded.

Avatar image for alsatian86
#47 Posted by alsatian86 (33 posts) -
That's not what the recordings say... Too many people have mis-heard it.
Avatar image for zingerkid
#48 Posted by zingerkid (25 posts) -

I agree with most of what you're saying, however, my problem with his decision was that is wasn't his decision to make.  Ellie showed throughout the game that she is capable of understanding what is asked of her and making the decision herself.  Now, the fireflies weren't letting her make the decision either and I can understand their viewpoint and Joel's.  However, I think he should have left the decision up to her (obviously easier said than done when she is unconcioius).  I also think that she had an idea of what would happen at the hospital considering the scene before when they see the giraffe's (right before this and right after she is quiet and distant and not paying attention).  I think she knew she would have to be sacrificed and she was resigned to it and preparing herself for it.

Avatar image for irEric
#49 Posted by irEric (25 posts) -
I looked at the recording on the wikia. It says that her infection is as prominent as every other infected patient they've examined. She is the first immune infected they've come across and they have no clue how it is she is immune. They want to replicate her condition and the first thing they want to do is dissect her. Pretty f*cking dumb if you ask me. Not saying that dissecting her shouldn't be an option. It just shouldn't be the first. As for Joel he was selfish. That's what makes a good story, people acting selfishly out of love. As for the possibility of acting selflessly, that would of made for a great story as well. Sacrifice is just as a strong theme as love is. She'd sacrifice herself and Joel would have to sacrifice his own desires. Marlene had already struggled with her own emotions to allow it to happen. If anything Marlene had a much stronger connection to Ellie than Joel. They would of said their good byes and i'd shed some manly tears.
Avatar image for Speranza318
#50 Posted by Speranza318 (79 posts) -
The ending segment when Joel and Ellie are brought to the hospital is the turning point in the game. At this point, we learn that the Fireflies want to kill Ellie to extract the fungus from her brain for further research. Marlene turned her back on Ellie's mother whom she made a promise to protect Ellie (evidenced through the note in Ellie's backpack when you take control of her during winter). Keep in mind, monkeys were immune to the infection (proven by an audio file) as were giraffes and dogs which is implied by their running around 20 years after exposure. It was explained by Marlene at the end of the game that the fungus mutated in a way that made it inactive in Ellie's system, which is likely the same mechanism by which the animals were immune. If anything, the Fireflies should have done further research on the animals before killing a child with no guarantee it will work. They could have tried blood work or biopsied her brain as well instead of extracting the entire brain. It's this decision that makes me believe that the Fireflies are possibly an evil organization rather than "saviors". Marlene knew from the beginning of the game that she was sending Ellie to her death. I have no proof, but it's possible the Fireflies engineered the fungus and their killing all infected was their way to cover it up. As for Joel, he already lost his daughter to the Fireflies and has no reason to trust their organization. After 20 years, he finally found something to live for - Ellie. His decision, although selfish, was the right one in his mind because he didn't want to see his "daughter" die again. The ending could have been done better. If I were the one writing the script, I would have had Ellie ask Joel if he was lying the same way. By the look on her face, she knew Joel lied to her. She previously said she came all this way, and didn't want it to be for nothing. I was expecting her to shoot Joel or shoot herself after realizing Joel lied to her as she was obviously having a rough time dealing with surviving which was portrayed at the beginning of Spring. I would have had the screen go black followed by a gunshot noise to keep the audience in suspense for a sequel.