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If Jarl Balgruuf initiated the rebellion, how would you feel about it?

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Rampagingwalrus

Nov 17, 2012 10:22 pm GMT
Ajd_King posted...
Yes, it was a fundamental position, that had declared loyalty to neither cause. It was neutral. A neutral party that had strong forces, commanded a good position, and was well equipped and supplied. So Ulfric attacked it.

His motive for doing so was because a large amount of Imperial couriers were going in and out of the hold, just as his were.

Yes, I'd call that a senior's moment.

The Empire would have attacked it also, had they not been able to just trick Balgruuf into letting them have the city.
Ulfric's reason for attacking the hold was because it was the essential first step in controlling all of Skyrim.
By not picking a side, Balgruuf forces his people to become the prime target for both sides.
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Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn.
Ajd_King

Nov 17, 2012 10:25 pm GMT
Rampagingwalrus posted...
The Empire would have attacked it also, had they not been able to just trick Balgruuf into letting them have the city.
Ulfric's reason for attacking the hold was because it was the essential first step in controlling all of Skyrim.
By not picking a side, Balgruuf forces his people to become the prime target for both sides.

I doubt that very much. Both sides knew the result of attacking Whiterun, it would push it into the other person's arms. The Empire isn't prideful nor stupid enough to attack someone just to have it join the enemy.

Remember, the war had been going on for a while before we arrived in Skyrim. Throughout that entire time, Whiterun wasn't involved, and no one forced Balgruuf to pick a side. If not for an act of god, Whiterun would've lasted the whole war without joining the fighting.

It was not a prime target, or else it would've been dragged in far earlier.
---
Walt's a scientist, scientists love lasers.
Rampagingwalrus

Nov 17, 2012 10:32 pm GMT
Ajd_King posted...
I doubt that very much. Both sides knew the result of attacking Whiterun, it would push it into the other person's arms. The Empire isn't prideful nor stupid enough to attack someone just to have it join the enemy.

Remember, the war had been going on for a while before we arrived in Skyrim. Throughout that entire time, Whiterun wasn't involved, and no one forced Balgruuf to pick a side. If not for an act of god, Whiterun would've lasted the whole war without joining the fighting.

It was not a prime target, or else it would've been dragged in far earlier.

Nor is the Empire stupid enough to let a neutral party exist while they are waging a war.
Whiterun's ownership is essential to a successful war, which is why it is the first target, for both sides.

Had Balgruuf been smart enough to not be duped into handing his city over, the Empire would have lain siege to it.
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Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn.
zerobobo

Nov 17, 2012 10:33 pm GMT
Ajd_King posted...
zerobobo posted...
taking over the central hold of skyrim that sees the most trade through it is a 'senior moment"?
i mean as stated by BOTH sides, whiterun is pretty much they key to victory for either side. taking it is not a "senior moment" lol.....

like-wise, lying about ulfrics intentions and troop movements in a letter to push him to join your side is not a "senior moment" of tullius. its rather smart to trick stupid old balgruuf into siding with the empire by falsifying information. (yes thats a quest)

Yes, it was a fundamental position, that had declared loyalty to neither cause. It was neutral. A neutral party that had strong forces, commanded a good position, and was well equipped and supplied. So Ulfric attacked it.

His motive for doing so was because a large amount of Imperial couriers were going in and out of the hold, just as his were.

Yes, I'd call that a senior's moment.

Ulfric first offered him a last chance to join him. ulfric honorably basically said "hey i need your hold for my cause, you need to pick a side, either accept my axe or reject it."

whiterun IS pretty much the most important hold in skyrim. it has ample farmland. its central location is key for mobilizing troops, and its the trade hub of skyrim. sure solitude and windhelm both have large ports, but aside from that, they dont have much going for them.

i mean its implied that balgruuf and ulfric used to be really good friends but had some big falling out at some point and ulfric extended an olive branch only to have balgruuf cast it aside.

but really to deny whiteruns strategic importance to the war for either side is kinda silly as BOTH sides talk about how whiterun is the key to the entire war.
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Gamertag: Clonedzero
Ajd_King

Nov 17, 2012 10:39 pm GMT
Rampagingwalrus posted...
Nor is the Empire stupid enough to let a neutral party exist while they are waging a war.
Whiterun's ownership is essential to a successful war, which is why it is the first target, for both sides.

Except, as I said, it let that neutral party exist for what would have been the entirety of the war.

Had Balgruuf been smart enough to not be duped into handing his city over, the Empire would have lain siege to it.

And then the Stormcloaks would have relieved the siege alongside the forces of Whiterun, and the Empire would now be fighting an even stronger foe. Just like the Stormcloaks would have, if not for their walking super weapon. That, or the Empire would win, but now be royally smashed up.

They aren't all that stupid.

Also, I'll repeat. Tullius had essentially ended the war without ever taking Whiterun prior to the game's events.
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Walt's a scientist, scientists love lasers.
jrr18

Nov 17, 2012 10:40 pm GMT
Rampagingwalrus posted...
Ajd_King posted...
I doubt that very much. Both sides knew the result of attacking Whiterun, it would push it into the other person's arms. The Empire isn't prideful nor stupid enough to attack someone just to have it join the enemy.

Remember, the war had been going on for a while before we arrived in Skyrim. Throughout that entire time, Whiterun wasn't involved, and no one forced Balgruuf to pick a side. If not for an act of god, Whiterun would've lasted the whole war without joining the fighting.

It was not a prime target, or else it would've been dragged in far earlier.

Nor is the Empire stupid enough to let a neutral party exist while they are waging a war.
Whiterun's ownership is essential to a successful war, which is why it is the first target, for both sides.

Had Balgruuf been smart enough to not be duped into handing his city over, the Empire would have lain siege to it.

Being neutral dosn`t mean your going to be attacked by everyone ever here of switzerland they made it through two world wars by being neutral Ulfrics a moronic Thalmor puppet who`s going to get a hair cut with my axe.
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victory through superior fire power
psn jrr101
zerobobo

Nov 17, 2012 10:40 pm GMT
Ajd_King posted...
Rampagingwalrus posted...
Nor is the Empire stupid enough to let a neutral party exist while they are waging a war.
Whiterun's ownership is essential to a successful war, which is why it is the first target, for both sides.

Except, as I said, it let that neutral party exist for what would have been the entirety of the war.

Had Balgruuf been smart enough to not be duped into handing his city over, the Empire would have lain siege to it.

And then the Stormcloaks would have relieved the siege alongside the forces of Whiterun, and the Empire would now be fighting an even stronger foe. Just like the Stormcloaks would have, if not for their walking super weapon.

They aren't all that stupid.

Also, I'll repeat. Tullius had essentially ended the war without ever taking Whiterun prior to the game's events.

well assuming balgruuf wasnt tricked into siding with the empire, the stormcloaks woulda had an easy time taking whiterun, since (if ou side with the empire) the whole reason the whiterun repels the stormcloak attack is cus of the DB and the support of the legion. its safe to assume without the support of the legion the stormcloaks woulda taken the city.
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Gamertag: Clonedzero
josnkae132

Nov 17, 2012 10:42 pm GMT
I hate to burst your bubble guys, BUT the events of HELGEN really did happen. So we might as well stop playing captain hindsight, because Ulfric got another chance of seizing skyrim, and he did it with strategy.
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which is better to be born good or to overcome your evil nature through effort?
Ajd_King

Nov 17, 2012 10:43 pm GMT
josnkae132 posted...
I hate to burst your bubble guys, BUT the events of HELGEN really did happen. So we might as well stop playing captain hindsight, because Ulfric got another chance of seizing skyrim, and he did it with strategy.

I don't think that's what anyone is talking about. I'm certainly not. Only using that as an example to show how Whiterun is not essential to ending the war.
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Walt's a scientist, scientists love lasers.
Rampagingwalrus

Nov 17, 2012 10:44 pm GMT
Ajd_King posted...
Except, as I said, it let that neutral party exist for what would have been the entirety of the war.

And then the Stormcloaks would have relieved the siege alongside the forces of Whiterun, and the Empire would now be fighting an even stronger foe. Just like the Stormcloaks would have, if not for their walking super weapon.

They aren't all that stupid.

Also, I'll repeat. Tullius had essentially ended the war without ever taking Whiterun prior to the game's events.

No, prior to the Dragonborn's involvement, there was no "war" just Jarls complaining about the other side.
Minor skirmishes, no actual attacks, no attempts to take or control holds.

A war cannot be successfully fielded if there is a "neutral" party in the middle of it.
Both sides would suspect them of lending aid to the other.
Whiterun had to be taken by one side or the other, before the war could begin.

Killing Ulfric would not have ended the war.
Blindly executing him without a trial, in the backwoods town of Helgen would have made him a martyr.
Something for the loyal holds and troops to rally behind.
Tullius would have made the war worse by killing Ulfric.

The reason the Civil War ends with Ulfric's death, is because it involves taking the last hold under loyalist control.
Without all the lead up to that, his death accomplishes nothing good.

You know, the very reason why the Thalmor helped the Empire capture him, and wanted him executed.
Because doing so would have driven Skyrim further apart.
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Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn.
Ajd_King

Nov 17, 2012 10:50 pm GMT
Rampagingwalrus posted...
No, prior to the Dragonborn's involvement, there was no "war" just Jarls complaining about the other side.
Minor skirmishes, no actual attacks, no attempts to take or control holds.

A war cannot be successfully fielded if there is a "neutral" party in the middle of it.
Both sides would suspect them of lending aid to the other.
Whiterun had to be taken by one side or the other, before the war could begin.

Except that is wrong. The war had been going for a long time prior to the events of Skyrim. There's a reason Ulfric exhausted his treasury.

Killing Ulfric would not have ended the war.
Blindly executing him without a trial, in the backwoods town of Helgen would have made him a martyr.
Something for the loyal holds and troops to rally behind.
Tullius would have made the war worse by killing Ulfric.

Without trial? The guy in open rebellion against the Empire, who had started a war against them, has a chance at innocence? And you honestly believe anyone would be swayed by their decision to kill him? You're delusional. 0.0

And, plus, you might think the war would've continued for a long time, but I doubt it. Ulfric is continually regarded as the guy responsible for the support the Stormcloaks are receiving. Without him, who's going to be in charge? Galmar? The unknown nobody ever mentions? One of the other ass-backwards Jarls that aren't liked?

The reason the Civil War ends with Ulfric's death, is because it involves taking the last hold under loyalist control.
Without all the lead up to that, his death accomplishes nothing good.

Nope.

You know, the very reason why the Thalmor helped the Empire capture him, and wanted him executed.
Because doing so would have driven Skyrim further apart.

*sigh*

They intended to save him. Have you not read the Dossier? They wanted him alive at all costs.
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Walt's a scientist, scientists love lasers.
jrr18

Nov 17, 2012 10:50 pm GMT
Rampagingwalrus posted...
Ajd_King posted...
Except, as I said, it let that neutral party exist for what would have been the entirety of the war.

And then the Stormcloaks would have relieved the siege alongside the forces of Whiterun, and the Empire would now be fighting an even stronger foe. Just like the Stormcloaks would have, if not for their walking super weapon.

They aren't all that stupid.

Also, I'll repeat. Tullius had essentially ended the war without ever taking Whiterun prior to the game's events.

No, prior to the Dragonborn's involvement, there was no "war" just Jarls complaining about the other side.
Minor skirmishes, no actual attacks, no attempts to take or control holds.

A war cannot be successfully fielded if there is a "neutral" party in the middle of it.
Both sides would suspect them of lending aid to the other.
Whiterun had to be taken by one side or the other, before the war could begin.

Killing Ulfric would not have ended the war.
Blindly executing him without a trial, in the backwoods town of Helgen would have made him a martyr.
Something for the loyal holds and troops to rally behind.
Tullius would have made the war worse by killing Ulfric.

The reason the Civil War ends with Ulfric's death, is because it involves taking the last hold under loyalist control.
Without all the lead up to that, his death accomplishes nothing good.

You know, the very reason why the Thalmor helped the Empire capture him, and wanted him executed.
Because doing so would have driven Skyrim further apart.

Ahem switzerland ww1/ww2
---
victory through superior fire power
psn jrr101
Curved_Sw0rd

Nov 17, 2012 10:52 pm GMT
Jarl Ballin'
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What if Japanese schoolgirl bees?
Ajd_King

Nov 17, 2012 10:53 pm GMT
Curved_Sw0rd posted...
Jarl Ballin'

#swag
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Walt's a scientist, scientists love lasers.
Lockeadon

Nov 17, 2012 10:53 pm GMT
the ghost of topics past? why does it matter who started it? the only way it would make a difference is if the high king started it instead of being killed by ulfy.
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be more cereal!
josnkae132

Nov 17, 2012 10:57 pm GMT
Ajd_King posted...
josnkae132 posted...
I hate to burst your bubble guys, BUT the events of HELGEN really did happen. So we might as well stop playing captain hindsight, because Ulfric got another chance of seizing skyrim, and he did it with strategy.

I don't think that's what anyone is talking about. I'm certainly not. Only using that as an example to show how Whiterun is not essential to ending the war.

Except it was essential to winning the war, both sides realize this city is one of the biggest for trade ( I would honestly say it was the second behind Solitude). This is why its the first city to sack/defend in both campaigns. Whoever controls the middle ground has a HUGE advantage over the other. It's one of the 5 major cities and four of them are already decided, give or take. Whiterun's support could easily make both sides job far easier.
---
which is better to be born good or to overcome your evil nature through effort?
Curved_Sw0rd

Nov 17, 2012 10:59 pm GMT
No one cares.

But Ballin' Ballin'
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What if Japanese schoolgirl bees?
zerobobo

Nov 17, 2012 11:01 pm GMT
jrr18 posted...
Rampagingwalrus posted...
Ajd_King posted...
Except, as I said, it let that neutral party exist for what would have been the entirety of the war.

And then the Stormcloaks would have relieved the siege alongside the forces of Whiterun, and the Empire would now be fighting an even stronger foe. Just like the Stormcloaks would have, if not for their walking super weapon.

They aren't all that stupid.

Also, I'll repeat. Tullius had essentially ended the war without ever taking Whiterun prior to the game's events.

No, prior to the Dragonborn's involvement, there was no "war" just Jarls complaining about the other side.
Minor skirmishes, no actual attacks, no attempts to take or control holds.

A war cannot be successfully fielded if there is a "neutral" party in the middle of it.
Both sides would suspect them of lending aid to the other.
Whiterun had to be taken by one side or the other, before the war could begin.

Killing Ulfric would not have ended the war.
Blindly executing him without a trial, in the backwoods town of Helgen would have made him a martyr.
Something for the loyal holds and troops to rally behind.
Tullius would have made the war worse by killing Ulfric.

The reason the Civil War ends with Ulfric's death, is because it involves taking the last hold under loyalist control.
Without all the lead up to that, his death accomplishes nothing good.

You know, the very reason why the Thalmor helped the Empire capture him, and wanted him executed.
Because doing so would have driven Skyrim further apart.

Ahem switzerland ww1/ww2

what tactical or strategic importance did Switzerland have again? oh right. none at all. it was a small meaningless country with craploads of annoying mountains, why the hell would anyone invade that when they have better things to do? its easy to be ignored in a war when you're pointless and have no real value lol
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Gamertag: Clonedzero
Bhellium

Nov 17, 2012 11:03 pm GMT
Ulfric isn't remotely worthy of leading Skyrim. Balgruuf isn't either, really, but he's closer, and a bit less maniacal.
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P&L: Deal w/it
Cookie if you get the reference
jrr18

Nov 17, 2012 11:03 pm GMT
Well there is a mountain in the whiterun hold.
---
victory through superior fire power
psn jrr101