The Old Republic Flopping Bigtime

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#1 Posted by Shadow-Phax (50 posts) -

     Well I hate to say I told you so. SW:TOR just lost 400,000 users. It seems that EA may be on the road to failure because of it. it's pretty clear that the industries move towards MMO games is a recipie for disaster. Everyone wants to be the next WOW but it doesn't seem that's possible. WOW has found a niche, the people who actually want to have a steady stream of new content online. So it's silly to try and duplicate it with an action game like SW:TOR. I played SW:KOTOR 1 and 2, they were excellent games. They had something that MMORPGs don't, an ending. People want to play a game and have it come to a conclusion, they want to feel they've accomplished something. Then they want the next game in the series to be the same, they want to play it through and then maybe go online and play against others. Those games benefitted from allowing any user to host their own server and make mods, create their own custom games. I remember when this happened with Quake and the first Team Fortress mod. Then it happened with Half-Life, a great single player campaign and then some great online play. You could run your own server too.

    These days it's all about the game company hosting their own servers and not allowing end users to do the same. I hope this fad of MMO really hurts the companies like EA so they will focus more on creating new games in a series. They could create games and further the story rather than trying to be the next WOW. I hope when they finally pull the plug on this boondoggle that is called Star Wars: The Old Republic, they realize that there is a big market for single-player and produce Knights of the Old Republic 3. I'm just hoping that when Mechwarrior Online comes out, it's a huge flop. However I don't hope they abandon the Mechwarrior series altogether, they put out a great single player game.

Kylearan

#2 Posted by HGAT (1366 posts) -

Yup you are right, biggest MMORPG flop of all time. It is the most expensive game ever made as well, so no wonder EA Stocks have taken a dive with the new of it flopping.

#3 Posted by vishisluv7 (480 posts) -

They did a pretty bad job on TOR, so it's good the market is responding properly.

#4 Posted by vishisluv7 (480 posts) -

*Double post*

#5 Posted by Saiyan12 (1552 posts) -

If I was Bethesda right now, I'd be hesitant about Elder Scrolls: Online after seeing what happened to TOR...

#6 Posted by CatAtomic999 (1137 posts) -

I don't think the problem is so much with SWtOR, but with the genre. It's been driven into the ground with a long series of games that are almost identical.

Everyone's who has a big budget has been trying to remake WoW over the last few years, with a little twist of some sort, and it's ended up making the whole genre into one big lump of 'been there, done that'. It's the same thing that's happened with movies. The summer blockbusters are all the same thing with slightly different visuals, because the movie studios don't want to take risks with a big budget, and prefer to just make a copy of what worked last year.

#7 Posted by leepialong (471 posts) -

yes, man! it flops big time. in the forum, players want Merged/transfer NOW, not like next 2 months. the servers essentially are dead. it funny ppl smacking gamespot give score tooooo low for 8/10; they think it should be like 9.5 or 10/10. i guess these ppl havent do a flash point or illum yet.

Edited: lastly, EA louse was right all along!!! everyone call him a lair; guess what?? now it in your face!

#8 Posted by vishisluv7 (480 posts) -

I don't think the problem is so much with SWtOR, but with the genre. It's been driven into the ground with a long series of games that are almost identical.

Everyone's who has a big budget has been trying to remake WoW over the last few years, with a little twist of some sort, and it's ended up making the whole genre into one big lump of 'been there, done that'. It's the same thing that's happened with movies. The summer blockbusters are all the same thing with slightly different visuals, because the movie studios don't want to take risks with a big budget, and prefer to just make a copy of what worked last year.

CatAtomic999

Well said, i agree. In the context of a sea of clones, TOR is getting the assessment it deserves. It's a decent "one of many", but the entire genre is stale as you said.

@Saiyan12 I agree. The last thing I'd be doing these days would be investing in another frigging fantasy holy-trinity MMO. Beth doesn't need to, don't blemish the Elder Scrolls name! Make the next one 4 player co op instead!

#9 Posted by Megotaku77 (418 posts) -

I've seen this trend a lot among people who don't understand how MMO releases work. SWTOR isn't flopping. You'd have to be willfully ignorant of market trends to say this game is flopping.

Here are some facts:

1. SWTOR had the largest western release of any MMO in the history of the industry.

2. SWTOR is currently the 3rd largest MMO in the world only about a million subs behind Aion and SWTOR does not have an international release yet.

3. SWTOR currently has 1.3m subs as of the recent investor's call which humiliates FFXI, Everquest, DAoC, and LotRO at their absolute best, Everquest being the largest of these capping at around 550k subs. 1.3m vs. 550k.

4. BW developers have been saying since early Dec. that SWTOR only needs 500k subs to remain profitable. They currently have almost 3x that many.

5. All MMO's since WoW experience a population crash within the first 6 months. While the box-sales of SWTOR were impressive, the Feb. investor's call stated 1.7m subs "the majority have rolled over into their recurring subscription cycle". Generous analysts have stated this meant they had about 1m recurring subs which is significantly more than a mere "majority". This means that since the Feb. investor's call SWTOR went from 1m -> 1.3m recurring subs. In other words their actual subscriber base is growing. Box sales have never, nor will ever be a barometer for subscription loss for MMOs. This is only the case when people who don't regularly play MMOs try to be an analyst in the industry.

So no, SWTOR isn't flopping. It may not have suited your fancy, and you might be one of those sad pathetic people praying for other people's failures for no discernable reason other than you're a terrible person, but if you say SWTOR is flopping, you'd be factually incorrect. EA's stock prices are a direct result of numerous things SWTOR being barely a footnote in even the most cynical analyst's bag first and foremost being Battlefield 3 underperforming, a CFO leaving the company and EA being voted worst company in America. To be honest you gamers should be nothing short of ashamed of yourselves for this because companies like Apple who take advantage of third world slave labor for their hardware, or Bank of America who helped crash the world's economy lost out to a video game company because the whiners on the internet didn't get the endings they wanted so now EA gets the limelight while companies who literally own slaves get to keep laughing all the way to the bank.

#10 Posted by rosen22 (127 posts) -

EA being voted worst company in America. To be honest you gamers should be nothing short of ashamed of yourselves for this because companies like Apple who take advantage of third world slave labor for their hardware, or Bank of America who helped crash the world's economy lost out to a video game company because the whiners on the internet didn't get the endings they wanted so now EA gets the limelight while companies who literally own slaves get to keep laughing all the way to the bank.

Megotaku77

 

THIS. Spot on. And no Swtor isnt flopping. haters gonna hate :(

#11 Posted by CraZkid37 (457 posts) -

I've seen this trend a lot among people who don't understand how MMO releases work. SWTOR isn't flopping. You'd have to be willfully ignorant of market trends to say this game is flopping.

Here are some facts:

1. SWTOR had the largest western release of any MMO in the history of the industry.

2. SWTOR is currently the 3rd largest MMO in the world only about a million subs behind Aion and SWTOR does not have an international release yet.

3. SWTOR currently has 1.3m subs as of the recent investor's call which humiliates FFXI, Everquest, DAoC, and LotRO at their absolute best, Everquest being the largest of these capping at around 550k subs. 1.3m vs. 550k.

4. BW developers have been saying since early Dec. that SWTOR only needs 500k subs to remain profitable. They currently have almost 3x that many.

5. All MMO's since WoW experience a population crash within the first 6 months. While the box-sales of SWTOR were impressive, the Feb. investor's call stated 1.7m subs "the majority have rolled over into their recurring subscription cycle". Generous analysts have stated this meant they had about 1m recurring subs which is significantly more than a mere "majority". This means that since the Feb. investor's call SWTOR went from 1m -> 1.3m recurring subs. In other words their actual subscriber base is growing. Box sales have never, nor will ever be a barometer for subscription loss for MMOs. This is only the case when people who don't regularly play MMOs try to be an analyst in the industry.

So no, SWTOR isn't flopping. It may not have suited your fancy, and you might be one of those sad pathetic people praying for other people's failures for no discernable reason other than you're a terrible person, but if you say SWTOR is flopping, you'd be factually incorrect. EA's stock prices are a direct result of numerous things SWTOR being barely a footnote in even the most cynical analyst's bag first and foremost being Battlefield 3 underperforming, a CFO leaving the company and EA being voted worst company in America. To be honest you gamers should be nothing short of ashamed of yourselves for this because companies like Apple who take advantage of third world slave labor for their hardware, or Bank of America who helped crash the world's economy lost out to a video game company because the whiners on the internet didn't get the endings they wanted so now EA gets the limelight while companies who literally own slaves get to keep laughing all the way to the bank.

Megotaku77
Best post in awhile... seriously. EA is a tyrant and they are just getting their well deserved "just desserts."
#12 Posted by jackliu239 (880 posts) -
So many fail don't know where to start 1. Yes but don't mean it is not failing 2. You do know SWTOR have been released in Asia right, along with all of Europe and North America? SWTOR has pretty much hit all the market audience on planet earth already. I mean the only place that is not officially released is probably Africa. But I doubt starving Ethiopian children want to play SWTOR. 3. SWTOR had a box sale of almost 3 million now, and the last time it was counting the sub was down to 1.3 million, that is more than a 50% drop. And this number is inflated with the free 30 days as well. 4. Did they said how long do they need the 500k? 1 month? 1 year? 10 year? Judging by the amount of sub they are bleeding, I don't think they will have more than 500k by next year. 5. LOL... I really don't know where to begin with this one... just so many fail squeezed into so few text... But please see this reference to explination http://www.torstatus.net/shards/us/trends Apple use slave labor... lol another common misconception by hippie Americans, Apple's manufacturing plant is located in China, it is a Taiwanese company called Foxconn setting up shop in China, they are actually paying above standard wage for the Chinese workers than most of the comparable factory in that area. The reason they have lower salary compare to USA is because the labor is cheaper, they have more population, they have lower standard of living, not everyone owns a car there. But it does not mean people work as slaves, most of the labor work there have enough money for housing, food, unities and at the end of the month + left overs, most of the worker have enough money to send back to their home villages to support their elderly. And people who does not do that can keep the expandable money they earn on the leisure consumer goods. China is the world's 2nd largest economy for a reason, you don't became that base on "slave" labor, in fact, it has been proven that actual force/slave labor actually have much lower productivity than willing workers. You whole notion that China is full of slaves.. Apple is using slaves is nothing but bull and ignorance to the most degree.
#13 Posted by Megotaku77 (418 posts) -

So many fail don't know where to start

1. Yes but don't mean it is not failing

Your definition of "failing" is irrelevant. Its not failing in the ways that matter.

2. You do know SWTOR have been released in Asia right, along with all of Europe and North America? SWTOR has pretty much hit all the market audience on planet earth already. I mean the only place that is not officially released is probably Africa. But I doubt starving Ethiopian children want to play SWTOR.

It has not. It has been released in Oceanic territories which only include Hong Kong and Singapore. It has not seen wide release in Asia. In fact its only recently seen wide-release in EU and ME.

3. SWTOR had a box sale of almost 3 million now, and the last time it was counting the sub was down to 1.3 million, that is more than a 50% drop. And this number is inflated with the free 30 days as well.

Box sales have never been an indictation of MMO health. Longevity has data 1, data 2.

4. Did they said how long do they need the 500k? 1 month? 1 year? 10 year? Judging by the amount of sub they are bleeding, I don't think they will have more than 500k by next year.

This idle speculation is not supported by recent MMO trends. I also already linked the original article and the data to support these claims.

5. LOL... I really don't know where to begin with this one... just so many fail squeezed into so few text... But please see this reference to explination http://www.torstatus.net/shards/us/trends

I've said this before but torstatus only tracks player activity, not subscriptions. In the beginning of SWTOR there was a report of mean average player activity of 7 hours a day. That was the mean of all players. Of course player activity is going to trend down from there. No industry analyst uses TORstatus to trend subscription health, its just the best friend of forum trolls like you who wish to deceive people who don't understand how MMO launches work.

Apple use slave labor... lol another common misconception by hippie Americans, Apple's manufacturing plant is located in China, it is a Taiwanese company called Foxconn setting up shop in China, they are actually paying above standard wage for the Chinese workers than most of the comparable factory in that area. The reason they have lower salary compare to USA is because the labor is cheaper, they have more population, they have lower standard of living, not everyone owns a car there. But it does not mean people work as slaves, most of the labor work there have enough money for housing, food, unities and at the end of the month + left overs, most of the worker have enough money to send back to their home villages to support their elderly. And people who does not do that can keep the expandable money they earn on the leisure consumer goods.

Its inexcusable that you would be an apologist for slavery and openly lie about things like this.

China is the world's 2nd largest economy for a reason, you don't became that base on "slave" labor, in fact, it has been proven that actual force/slave labor actually have much lower productivity than willing workers. You whole notion that China is full of slaves.. Apple is using slaves is nothing but bull and ignorance to the most degree.

More apologetics for slavery. Educate yourself. You sound like a far right industrialist loon. You should be ashamed of yourself for lying to people about this.jackliu239

I don't feel like spending a lot of time arguing with someone who is intentionally lying to people, so I let my sources do most of the talking.

*EDIT* One more addendum since you are apparently stupid and don't know how deep Apple is into this Foxconn slavery debaucle found here. Professor of Sociology at U.C. Berkeley does a detailed report on the gigantic percetage of of Foxconn products Apple uses (accounting for 40% of Foxconn's total income) and goes into details on the story, even explaining how he in 2010 organized an effort to get Apple to use their leverage to force Foxconn to improve their working conditions which Apple IGNORED until this story made national headlines. I think your stupidity has been made apparent to all. I'm done with you.

#14 Posted by HGAT (1366 posts) -

The only stupidity on display is anyone who thinks a Star Wars MMORPG with falling subs base in the first six months is in anyway successful.

 

If you can't be successful with the Star Wars IP that already has a built in fanbase then it's time to pack up your bags and quit the day job.

More people play Farmville than this lol.

#15 Posted by Megotaku77 (418 posts) -

The only stupidity on display is anyone who thinks a Star Wars MMORPG with falling subs base in the first six months is in anyway successful.

 

If you can't be successful with the Star Wars IP that already has a built in fanbase then it's time to pack up your bags and quit the day job.

More people play Farmville than this lol.

HGAT
I've provided sources to back up my claims, and not meaningless "trend" graphs unrelated to the point I was trying to make like you. Keep trolling, you've been refuted and humiliated.
#16 Posted by jackliu239 (880 posts) -

You poor sad person.... Again, Foxconn is NOT Apple, it is a Taiwainess company that set up shot in China that employees Chinese labor, and they pay them above average wages than the rest of the factor around there.

 

And again, it is not slave labor, they are being paid the average wage, and most people have money left over for savings. How do I know this? Because I have relatives in China and I have been there myself. If you want to judge the Chinese's standard's living with what you do, that is not possible, not everyone on earth can live like you, not everyone have thier own single family 2 story houses, not everyone have a personal car, not everyone can eat meat as cheap as they eat vegi.

 

But the Chinese are doing very well by the standard of thier own living, they have come a long way since the 1960s. It is no doubt, there are cases of abuses in factories, and if you only read about them as antidote form, of course it gives you a horrible representation of what is going on, if you only read. But have you ever read about statistics? of how many wage a Chinese worker in Foxconn earns a month? And what is thier cost of rent, cost of food etc... how much do they have left over?

No you don't , becuase if you do, you can see although they don't live as well as we do in the West, but it is certianly well enough by their own standard.

#17 Posted by Megotaku77 (418 posts) -

You poor sad person.... Again, Foxconn is NOT Apple, it is a Taiwainess company that set up shot in China that employees Chinese labor, and they pay them above average wages than the rest of the factor around there.jackliu239

Read my sources, particularly the one by the Professor of Sociology at U.C. Berkeley who made Apple aware of the human rights violations going on at the factories that produce their hardware YEARS before the controversy made headlines, I'm done arguing about this, you're just a corporatist shill.

And again, it is not slave labor, they are being paid the average wage, and most people have money left over for savings. How do I know this? Because I have relatives in China and I have been there myself. If you want to judge the Chinese's standard's living with what you do, that is not possible, not everyone on earth can live like you, not everyone have thier own single family 2 story houses, not everyone have a personal car, not everyone can eat meat as cheap as they eat vegi.jackliu239

Oh you have relatives that live in China. I guess readers should just disregard the report I linked by the Fair Labor Association and the 2nd report I linked by U.C. Berkeley.

But the Chinese are doing very well by the standard of thier own living, they have come a long way since the 1960s. It is no doubt, there are cases of abuses in factories, and if you only read about them asantidote form, of course it gives you a horrible representation of what is going on, if you only read. But have you ever read about statistics? of how many wage a Chinese worker in Foxconn earns a month? And what is thier cost of rent, cost of food etc... how much do they have left over?

No you don't , becuase if you do, you can see although they don't live as well as we do in the West, but it is certianly well enough by their own standard.

jackliu239

I never attacked China in general, I attacked Apple for using sweat shop labor despite being told about it. I've destroyed your nonsense position now you're trying to strawman what I actually said. Well enough eh? I guess those numerous cases recorded in the Fair Labor Association report I linked of permanent paralysis in numerous workers arms due to excessive repetitive labor is just "certainly living well enough by their own standards". Gamespot's language filter prohibits me from calling you what I really think of you.

*EDIT*

Despite my current immense loathing for you, I'm going to answer some of these questions you have about your defense of these sweat shops. This is all in the report I linked that you're too much of a coward to read:

Average working hours: 56 per week. Average extended work period without break over 3-month period: 11.5 days.

28% of respondents say their wage isn't enough to cover food. 43% say it isn't enough to pay for living accommodations. 45% say it isn't enough for basic healthcare. 60% say it isn't enough for education. Only 41.5% felt that the canteen (where they have to eat) is clean and hygienic. 78.6% feel their dormitories are crowded. 75.4% describe their work station as uncomfortable. 52.6% feel that the ventillation, air conditioning, heating and other systems are inadequate. Across all 3 factories tested over 50%, some as high as 76.1% do not feel their factory is safe to prevent injuries.

I could go on all day. And these are third world sweat shop workers making these complaints. But you're right, these ungrateful sots don't know how GOOD they have it do they? My opinion of you could not go any lower. Call me an American hippy again. If you had a shred of decency you would shuffle quietly out of this forum and never post again. But of course we both know you don't have that much integrity don't we?

#18 Posted by Megotaku77 (418 posts) -

And just an addon for my last stats for those unwilling to read the report, 87% of employees were employed from small towns with the majority from tiny villages. In fact, 65.1% of ALL employees were taken from small villages. These aren't city types complaining about cleanliness, inability to pay for food, lodging, healthcare or basic education for their children. These are mostly 3rd world provincials making these complaints. Can you imagine how bad things REALLY are when 3rd world VILLAGERS are complaining they can't afford to live off of the salaries provided by their corporate overlords?

Seriously, and I reiterate with emphasis. Its utterly embarrassing that EA won "worst company in America" when there are others who are SO much more deserving. Like Apple. Who undeniably, inexcusably and most importantly KNOWINGLY exploited 3rd world slave labor. If you don't think subsistence living is slavery, then I can't help you.

#19 Posted by jackliu239 (880 posts) -

So what you saying is, everyone in China should live like Americans, where they have health care, personal cars, a invididual condo/ single family house. Right?

 

You do know those workers came from rural areas to the city to look for jobs because they can actually get better standard of living working in factories, I mean, no one kiddnaped them from the villages and dump them into the factory and locking the dooars on them right? And als othe fact that those workers are recurited by the Foxconn on thier own free will, how does that make them slave? They didn't go to Africa, captured all the people there, and sold them on the slave market where they force them into the factory did they?

 

That report you link, of course it shows doom and glome, because that is the whole purpuse of that report, is to "expose" to stir up things to make people aware, so do you really expect to see a fair and balanced report? Do you really expect to see that report to have anything positive to say about the benefit it brings to the workers?

 

Because to your logic, if working there is so bad, where people get paid so little, where no one can afford food, or housing... why the heck would anyone want to work there? Oh and btw those workers are all volunteered, so why would they do that? If their life back home is so much better, why do they just stay at home with thier family and do farm stuff, I am sure that is so much better than slave labor.

 

The fact is, those workers sign up for the job on thier own free will, they know the wage, they know the risk, and they can quit any time they want. How is that slave?

 

And since the whole thing blow up, foxconn has incrase the wage to it is workers by about 400% already, I mean do you do that to slaves? Did the African slaves in America get any wage at all? Did they get 400% wage boost in 2 years?

 

Your whole slave argument is pretty stupid, just like your arguemnt that SWTOR is slave, healthy and doing well.

 

And seriously, go repost this whole thing to this forum if you dare http://au.gamespot.com/star-wars-the-old-republic/forum/platform/pc/

 

Stop dicking around and post in a forum where no one visits, or are you too afraid that somone might rebuff your stupid logic.

#20 Posted by Megotaku77 (418 posts) -

So what you saying is, everyone in China should live like Americans, where they have health care, personal cars, a invididual condo/ single family house. Right?jackliu239

Stop straw manning my position, the statistics speak for themselves.  Though I do find it VERY interesting that you just openly stated that the Chinese SHOULDN'T have basic health care.  What a schmuck.

 

You do know those workers came from rural areas to the city to look for jobs because they can actually get better standard of living working in factories, I mean, no one kiddnaped them from the villages and dump them into the factory and locking the dooars on them right? And als othe fact that those workers are recurited by the Foxconn on thier own free will, how does that make them slave? They didn't go to Africa, captured all the people there, and sold them on the slave market where they force them into the factory did they?jackliu239

They're subsistence workers, they can't find different work because they can't afford to.  1 in 4 can't even afford to eat.  1 in 2 can't afford to living accomidations even while working 56 hours a week.  Its called wage slavery you idiot.

 

 

That report you link, of course it shows doom and glome, because that is the whole purpuse of that report, is to "expose" to stir up things to make people aware, so do you really expect to see a fair and balanced report? Do you really expect to see that report to have anything positive to say about the benefit it brings to the workers?jackliu239

 The Fair Labor Association has been universally criticized by other civil rights organizations for what is perceived as an inexcusable leniency towards worker exploitation.  If they are publishing reports on how bad things are, its because they are really, really bad.

Because to your logic, if working there is so bad, where people get paid so little, where no one can afford food, or housing... why the heck would anyone want to work there? Oh and btw those workers are all volunteered, so why would they do that? If their life back home is so much better, why do they just stay at home with thier family and do farm stuff, I am sure that is so much better than slave labor.

 

The fact is, those workers sign up for the job on thier own free will, they know the wage, they know the risk, and they can quit any time they want. How is that slave?jackliu239

They can't quit any time they want because there is no food stamps or unemployment office to help them while they get on their feet.  They are obligated to work in substandard conditions because the alternative is starvation.  Your comments reek of a sheltered middle American child with no concept of what it means to have bills to pay and obligations to meet.

 

And since the whole thing blow up, foxconn has incrase the wage to it is workers by about 400% already, I mean do you do that to slaves? Did the African slaves in America get any wage at all? Did they get 400% wage boost in 2 years?jackliu239

Lmao, this part was funny.  Thanks for proving my point.  Once how bad things were got out, they had to save face.  I remember that slaves in America got a war... bloodiest conflict in American history if I remember correctly.  This kind of inhuman crap is only put to a stop when good people stand up against it.  Something you are clearly not.

 

And seriously, go repost this whole thing to this forum if you dare http://au.gamespot.com/star-wars-the-old-republic/forum/platform/pc/

 

Stop dicking around and post in a forum where no one visits, or are you too afraid that somone might rebuff your stupid logic.

jackliu239

"This forum is now read-only on GameSpot.
To post topics or messages, please visit GameFAQs and log in using the same email and password that you use on GameSpot."

My sources speak for themselves, I'm not threatened by any idiot forum trolls.  I'm posting on Gamespot, I have no interest in becoming a part of the GameFAQs community.

#21 Posted by N0tYrBeezin (6902 posts) -

I don't think the problem is so much with SWtOR, but with the genre. It's been driven into the ground with a long series of games that are almost identical.

Everyone's who has a big budget has been trying to remake WoW over the last few years, with a little twist of some sort, and it's ended up making the whole genre into one big lump of 'been there, done that'. It's the same thing that's happened with movies. The summer blockbusters are all the same thing with slightly different visuals, because the movie studios don't want to take risks with a big budget, and prefer to just make a copy of what worked last year.

CatAtomic999
SWTOR is not very good to begin with. EA and Bioware thought they could hide this fact by having cutscene, spoken quest dialogues everywhere. Remove the dialogues and cutscene and it is inferior to WoW in almost everyway. The only thing that is superior is the ability to send your companions to level the professions for you. That is why!
#22 Posted by vishisluv7 (480 posts) -

Yeah it's an amazing failure for EA and BW considering the talent and dump trucks full of cash they poured into the TOR pit.

Frankly, it's good that gamers have fully rejected EAs mess of an MMO in no uncertain terms. The market speaks, TOR is an unmitigated failure. No fanboi with a bunch of fake graphs and his own rage can make it untrue.

Lol@ dude raging against China.

#23 Posted by Megotaku77 (418 posts) -

Yeah it's an amazing failure for EA and BW considering the talent and dump trucks full of cash they poured into the TOR pit.

Frankly, it's good that gamers have fully rejected EAs mess of an MMO in no uncertain terms. The market speaks, TOR is an unmitigated failure. No fanboi with a bunch of fake graphs and his own rage can make it untrue.

Lol@ dude raging against China.

vishisluv7

What's amazing is how many people are illiterate and/or dishonest.  I can only think that you're trolling, or are you really so stupid you can't read my sources?  The "fake" graphs I provided were from MMOdata.net, a site that's been tracking MMO subscription numbers since 2009 and they're so reputable that CCP the developer of EVE online actually provides them with their internal numbers.  SWTOR's data comes directly from EA's investor's call, its the most accurate data you can get about MMO numbers.

Gamers haven't fully rejected anything, and its astounding you ignored the source after source after source I provided demonstrating this fact.  I also never raged against China, I brought up the fact that idiots like you voted EA as the worst company in America over Apple, a company that single handedly and knowingly finances Foxconn, the only company I criticized and only expanded on it when the sheltered Libertarian idiot started defending the actions of this company.

The market did speak and I provided all the sources and evidence demonstrating that sad little forum trolls like you don't have the first clue what you're talking about.  The saddest part is you think that intelligent people look at your baseless assertions mocking my well referenced and directly linked sources refuting the claims of you trolls and they come to the conlcusion that you were right.  

#24 Posted by vishisluv7 (480 posts) -
.. intelligent people look at your baseless assertions mocking my well referenced and directly linked sources refuting the claims of you trolls and they come to the conlcusion that you were right.  Megotaku77
The system works.
#25 Posted by Megotaku77 (418 posts) -
[QUOTE="vishisluv7"] The system works.

Now that I'm done pwning you I have a serious question. What drives a person like you to flatly ignore source material by industry professionals and assume you know better than every educated expert that's ever spoken on the topic? Is it the way you were raised? The area you live in? I mean this hubris in any part of the world except for the U.S. would get you laughed out of the room, so where does you unearned ego come from?
#26 Posted by vishisluv7 (480 posts) -
[QUOTE="Megotaku77"][QUOTE="vishisluv7"] The system works.

Now that I'm done pwning you I have a serious question. What drives a person like you to flatly ignore source material by industry professionals and assume you know better than every educated expert that's ever spoken on the topic? Is it the way you were raised? The area you live in? I mean this hubris in any part of the world except for the U.S. would get you laughed out of the room, so where does you unearned ego come from?

Listen, buddy.. You & me? Not gonna happen alright? Look, take your medicine and try to look forward to a new day. This time you got beat, and I'm sure you are embarrassed Don't give up, Bioware needs all the misinformed cheerleaders they can find I imagine. Source material, lol. It;'s China's fault!
#27 Posted by Megotaku77 (418 posts) -

 Look, take your medicine and try to look forward to a new dayvishisluv7
.

What's fun for me is to point out all the fallacies in people's arguments.  This is an ad hominem argument.

This time you got beat, and I'm sure you are embarrassed vishisluv7

This one's interesting because its 2 non-sequitors on top of being delusional grandstanding.

Don't give up, Bioware needs all the misinformed cheerleaders they can find I imagine.vishisluv7

Another non-sequitor and ad hominem argument rolled into one.

Source material, lol.vishisluv7

This part is just embarrassing especially since you've failed to counter even a single source I posted (and I posted a lot of them). This is reminiscent of a young earth creationist arguing with a scientist going "peer review?  lol."

It;'s China's fault!vishisluv7

And you finished up with a straw man.  Short post and a grand total of 6 logical fallacies and not a single valid or sound argument in any of the 3 posts you've made up until this point.  That's a whole lot of fail.  I'd like to think no one is stupid enough to argue this badly so I'll do you a favor and consider you a worthless forum troll instead.  I still think forum troll is a step up from mouthy ignoramous.  You're welcome.

#28 Posted by Swedish_Chef (617 posts) -

I don't think it's TOR that's failing, per se, I think it's the subscription based MMOs that are failing. A lot of people are tired of paying monthly subs for bi-monthly or quarterly updates. It's a waste of money and you get nothing out of it that you can't get from free games that never update. WoW isn't immune to this attitude either, it's lost something like 3 million subs over the past couple years... if any other MMO had taken that hit they'd be shut down.

WoW is still largely subscribed to now though because A) it's the 'old favorite' with the stable community, B) it's an established, and popular, e-sport and C) it's simple and easily appeals to the masses.

#29 Posted by Megotaku77 (418 posts) -

I don't think it's TOR that's failing, per se, I think it's the subscription based MMOs that are failing. A lot of people are tired of paying monthly subs for bi-monthly or quarterly updates. It's a waste of money and you get nothing out of it that you can't get from free games that never update. WoW isn't immune to this attitude either, it's lost something like 3 million subs over the past couple years... if any other MMO had taken that hit they'd be shut down.

 

 

WoW is still largely subscribed to now though because A) it's the 'old favorite' with the stable community, B) it's an established, and popular, e-sport and C) it's simple and easily appeals to the masses.

Swedish_Chef

The idea that the subscription model is failing requires a complete ignoring of how profitable the subscription model is.  SWTOR currently has 1.3 million subscribers but we won't run our numbers based on that because it doesn't highlight just how profitable P2P is.  If SWTOR had the bare minimum John Riccitiello (CEO of EA) says SWTOR needed to be profitable 500,000 subs, SWTOR makes $90m a year.  If the game keeps this population for 3 years, EA makes $270m not counting box sales which totalled around $120m leaving a net profit of $390m in just 3 years not counting microtransactions like authenticator sales, character/server/race changes which will be implemented later and so on.  By comparison Diablo 3 the best selling PC title of all time which sold 6.8 million copies only stands to make $408m.

The trolls on this forum maintain that SWTOR is a "failure", yet even using doomsday numbers from the very beginning that don't count that the game had around 1 million recurring subscribers for the first 2 recurring sub months, and are now at 1.3 million recurring subs 6 months in and yet despite these numbers treating SWTOR like it was significantly less successful than it actually was its revenue in just 3 years rivals the best selling title in history.

If you aren't convinced yet, consider this:  If you ignore the fact that Blizzard started Cataclysm with over 12 million subs and calculate their revenue based on their sub numbers near the end of Cataclysm of 10m subs then World of Warcraft over the last 12 months ALONE made $1.5 billion dollars in subscription revenue.  That's not counting server/race/faction transfers, or their extremely lucrative "pet store", or their full price box sales that as late as WotLK cost well over $100 to purchase the game plus all expansions.  The revenue from subscriptions alone Blizzard reaped in profits exceeds the total GDP of the entire country of Afghanistan.  

Even smaller studios like Trion who developed Rift are making around $45m a year off of subscriptions and again, this isn't counting their full-price box sales.  Look at how much I discounted and under-represented the numbers above and STILL how insanely profitable they are.  Subscription based MMOs aren't going anywhere and F2P MMOs are almost always misleading.

Take DCUO for example: You don't get access to any content without subscribing or paying their sticker price for the expansions if you ever cancel your sub and haven't paid full price for your expansions you lose access to all content and even characters if they are expansion characters.  They even shut down your access to your own money supply in game.  When the in-game economy demands items that cost millions of "cash", the F2P mode of the game caps you at $2000, not even enough to pay for repairs on your raiding gear, then terminates your access to your own money that you had in excess of this limit.  If subscription based MMOs are going to be replaced, it will not be by the microtransaction system as it has been implemented thus far in the genre.

#30 Posted by vishisluv7 (480 posts) -

I don't think it's TOR that's failing, per se, I think it's the subscription based MMOs that are failing. A lot of people are tired of paying monthly subs for bi-monthly or quarterly updates. It's a waste of money and you get nothing out of it that you can't get from free games that never update. WoW isn't immune to this attitude either, it's lost something like 3 million subs over the past couple years... if any other MMO had taken that hit they'd be shut down.

 

 

WoW is still largely subscribed to now though because A) it's the 'old favorite' with the stable community, B) it's an established, and popular, e-sport and C) it's simple and easily appeals to the masses.

Swedish_Chef

True, the old school sub-based MMO is a dying dinosaur. EA wasn't very wise to even try yet another clone, not even disguised either. I guess they though a ton of money on gimmicks like the crummy voice acting and poorly written stories would smother the obvious shortcomings of the game. Now that TOR has been so completly rejected by the gamers, it's only a short matter of time until the F2P/P2W model of desperation is released. Amazing how much money they must have lost as subscriptions have just bled out.

#31 Posted by Megotaku77 (418 posts) -

 Amazing how much money they must have lost as subscriptions have just bled out.

vishisluv7

Easy question to highlight how little you know.  How much money did EA lose on SWTOR?  This means revenue minus costs.  Cite your sources please.

#32 Posted by vishisluv7 (480 posts) -

Yup you are right, biggest MMORPG flop of all time. It is the most expensive game ever made as well, so no wonder EA Stocks have taken a dive with the new of it flopping.

HGAT
With reported $200+ million they dumped into this fiasco, it is no doubt THE biggest flop in MMO history, financially. Incredible that such a huge investment is now relegated to just another "me too" clone that never even took off before it crashed fatally.
#33 Posted by Megotaku77 (418 posts) -
[QUOTE="vishisluv7"] With reported $200+ million they dumped into this fiasco, it is no doubt THE biggest flop in MMO history, financially. Incredible that such a huge investment is now relegated to just another "me too" clone that never even took off before it crashed fatally.

You didn't answer my question. You claim its the biggest flop in MMO history financially. The question was simple: How much money did EA and BioWare lose on Old Republic? This means revenue minus costs. Cite your sources. I've actually run the metrics, but I know you don't like to read sources that disagree with your confirmation bias.
#34 Posted by vishisluv7 (480 posts) -

Real discussion is on the GameFAQ boards chief. No point using boards with 2-3 people on them.

You may have a better reception for your zany notions there with a larger audience..maybe.

#35 Posted by Megotaku77 (418 posts) -

Real discussion is on the GameFAQ boards chief. No point using boards with 2-3 people on them.

You may have a better reception for your zany notions there with a larger audience..maybe.

vishisluv7

Zany notions?  I simply asked you to substantiate your claims, like I have repeatedly.  Something you still have not done.  Could it be because you're talking out of your behind?

#36 Posted by vishisluv7 (480 posts) -

I just meant you could take all your wacky links and graphs and your case against China to a wider audience on GameFAQ is all.

#37 Posted by Megotaku77 (418 posts) -

Wacky links?  Since when is U.C. Berkeley, Joystiq.com, Gamespot.com, Massively.com, MMOdata.net OR the Fair Labor Association "wacky"?  I guess when you can't refute the rock solid information I'm providing hiding behind ad homs is the best counter argument.  Still waiting on an answer to my question.  Guess it won't be coming.  

I don't post on GameFAQs because the only people that post on a website so archaic it writes like a wordpad document are forum trolls.  I've never seen a useful post on a gamefaqs, whereas I've seen lots of useful posts on Gamespot because people here are a lot less tolerant of people like you.  Its funny when they divided Gamespot and Gamefaqs forums you could see the change overnight.  All useful information disappeared and stopped being updated on the Gamefaqs forums and were replaced by thread after thread of whining and misinformation.  

For example now there are at least 10 threads over there saying SWTOR is going F2P when it was only mentioned off the cuff in a "if we have to in the future we're not against it" remark that has since been pulled by the website that published it.  It doesn't surprise me you find it to be an ample home, its full of mouthy blowhards too stupid or dishonest to accurately represent the state of a game if it disagrees with their hateful, meaningless and vindictive propaganda campaign.  Why you people spend so much time whining about a game you don't even play will always be a mystery to me.  Pies12 for example has been trolling the SWTOR forums every day for 6 months.  He hasn't played since December.  And you expect me to post there?  What a laugh.

#38 Posted by Vambran (1920 posts) -

Bioware should have just made a single player RPG. I would have bought that.

#39 Posted by vishisluv7 (480 posts) -

Bioware should have just made a single player RPG. I would have bought that.

Vambran

They did, ME3, which despite the ending debacle, was a successful game unlike TORtanic turned out to be. I guess they know now though huh? Maybe leave the MMOs to the experienced companies rather than try to make a $2-300 million clone of an already dying game.

I would image the lesson has been thoroughly learned by now, haha.

#40 Posted by Megotaku77 (418 posts) -

[QUOTE="Vambran"]

Bioware should have just made a single player RPG. I would have bought that.

vishisluv7

They did, ME3, which despite the ending debacle, was a successful game unlike TORtanic turned out to be. I guess they know now though huh? Maybe leave the MMOs to the experienced companies rather than try to make a $2-300 million clone of an already dying game.

I would image the lesson has been thoroughly learned by now, haha.

TOR has turned a profit and BioWare is looking at a reliable income stream of $180m a year. So yeah they sure learned their lesson. Make more MMOs because they're cash cows. Its interesting that TOR is still more successful than SWG, Everquest, Everquest 2, DCUO, WAR, Runescape, FFXI, Rift, DAoC, AoC, Runecape 2, Aion (in the U.S. and E.U market), and every other MMO except for WoW so it leads me to the question: are you really saying that only Blizzard should be making MMOs or that the only MMOs that are successful have 10 million subscribers? Because TOR is already better at it than everyone else who's ever made an MMO. Proofand proof.

#41 Posted by vishisluv7 (480 posts) -

Haha, sure buddy, very successful, hahaha.

#42 Posted by Megotaku77 (418 posts) -

Haha, sure buddy, very successful, hahaha.

vishisluv7

I provided my evidence, you show me yours for the constant claims that SWTOR has failed as an MMO. I've cited sources that compare populations for the last decade of the MMO industry showing that SWTOR is one of the top dogs currently. Could it be that you don't have any evidence and you're just trolling? No, that couldn't be it, could it?

#43 Posted by vishisluv7 (480 posts) -

I don't know. You're the one following me around thread to thread with your hair on fire. Let me guess, you have some of your vaunted "sources" saying..what is your zany cause again? TOR is a smashing success? How come you gave up on that whole China rant you had going before? That really made you sound legit, haha.

Go ahead chief, show us your sources and explain how when we see a mass exodus and a F2P model coming that means the game is "top dog" lol. I know, if you hold the graph upside down..:lol: It's all China!

Why aren't you on the official boards getting angry at anyone pointing out the the game is tanking there? Ah right..there's no one on the game's official forum anymore. What would be the point right?

#44 Posted by Megotaku77 (418 posts) -

I don't know. You're the one following me around thread to thread with your hair on fire. Let me guess, you have some of your vaunted "sources" saying..what is your zany cause again? TOR is a smashing success? vishisluv7

I cited them in my last post and you admit to reading them.  Ignorance isn't cool, and I have no idea why jeering and patting yourself on the back for being as willfully ignorant as you are is so attractive to you.  It makes you look very stupid, and someone in the other thread pointed this out to you.

How come you gave up on that whole China rant you had going before? That really made you sound legit, haha.vishisluv7

This is a strawman as I never ranted about China.  I argued with someone about Apple who supports a China based company Foxconn.  Again, willful ignorance doesn't make you look cool, it makes you look embarassingly stupid.

Go ahead chief, show us your sources and explain how when we see a mass exodus and a F2P model coming that means the game is "top dog" lol. I know, if you hold the graph upside down..:lol: It's all China!vishisluv7

I've asked you numerous times for your source on the F2P model and you've refused to provide it once.  And no, a source citing another source that is no longer available doesn't count because it can't be verified.  My graphs also show these "mass exoduses" as you call them (they're called population crashes to industry analysts) happening in every game that released after WoW.  I've also covered this numerous times in this very thread.  Willful ignorance makes you look stupid.

Why aren't you on the official boards getting angry at anyone pointing out the the game is tanking there? Ah right..there's no one on the game's official forum anymore. What would be the point right?vishisluv7

I post on the official boards and currently there are over 290,000 threads.  This information is so easily available you could have simply clicked on the "community" button and they would have given you a breakdown of how many threads are in each subforum.  Willful ignorance only makes you look stupid.  

#45 Posted by maxp84 (389 posts) -

I like it because I'm new to the MMO genre.  I never played WoW.  But what's new to me is "Been there, done that" for a lot of people it seems.  I also think for the amount of money EA poured into making this title.  They haven't seen the returns that they hoped for because the genre is tired.

#46 Posted by Leejjohno (14088 posts) -

I like it because I'm new to the MMO genre.  I never played WoW.  But what's new to me is "Been there, done that" for a lot of people it seems.  I also think for the amount of money EA poured into making this title.  They haven't seen the returns that they hoped for because the genre is tired.

maxp84

I agree... I mean I kind of like this game and want to get into it with some of my friends.

I did a 10 day trial on WoW a few years back and even a small amount of time on that game has had an impact on my impressions of ToR. I also don't feel that the star wars universe really shines through when you are grinding through a jungle running unimportant errands for unimaginative characters.

I can't imagine how a level 80 on WoW would feel coming onto this. Not forgetting that WoW does a lot of things better.

#47 Posted by vishisluv7 (480 posts) -

[QUOTE="maxp84"]

I like it because I'm new to the MMO genre.  I never played WoW.  But what's new to me is "Been there, done that" for a lot of people it seems.  I also think for the amount of money EA poured into making this title.  They haven't seen the returns that they hoped for because the genre is tired.

Leejjohno

I agree... I mean I kind of like this game and want to get into it with some of my friends.

I did a 10 day trial on WoW a few years back and even a small amount of time on that game has had an impact on my impressions of ToR. I also don't feel that the star wars universe really shines through when you are grinding through a jungle running unimportant errands for unimaginative characters.

I can't imagine how a level 80 on WoW would feel coming onto this. Not forgetting that WoW does a lot of things better.

That about sums it up. Making yet another WoW wanna-be and pouring 100s of million$ into gimmicky voice over and hype marketing was just a bad move. Investing more money than any MMO ever into a genre when it's already been in decline for several years? After so many other "me-too" clones have failed as well. At least the others didn't sink this kind of fortune into a sinking ship. Now they think a quickie switch to F2P will save the TORtanic. Should be interesting to watch. The model works for Turbine, but then, this is EA.
#48 Posted by Megotaku77 (418 posts) -

 That about sums it up. Making yet another WoW wanna-be and pouring 100s of million$ into gimmicky voice over and hype marketing was just a bad move. Investing more money than any MMO ever into a genre when it's already been in decline for several years? After so many other "me-too" clones have failed as well. At least the others didn't sink this kind of fortune into a sinking ship.

Now they think a quickie switch to F2P will save the TORtanic. Should be interesting to watch. The model works for Turbine, but then, this is EA.vishisluv7

When is the game going F2P?  You've been saying that since June.  I've asked you more than a dozen times for your source, a request you've ignored.  So since its been well over a month since you started railing on about this F2P nonsense when can we expect the game to go F2P?  Six months?  A year?  Got a source on any of this?

What does a failing MMO look like?  How many games "fail" but still make their development companies millions of dollars in profit?  I'm just curious what metric we're using for "failing" here.  Can you clarify?

#49 Posted by brad12d3 (1023 posts) -

[QUOTE="vishisluv7"] That about sums it up. Making yet another WoW wanna-be and pouring 100s of million$ into gimmicky voice over and hype marketing was just a bad move. Investing more money than any MMO ever into a genre when it's already been in decline for several years? After so many other "me-too" clones have failed as well. At least the others didn't sink this kind of fortune into a sinking ship.

Now they think a quickie switch to F2P will save the TORtanic. Should be interesting to watch. The model works for Turbine, but then, this is EA.Megotaku77

When is the game going F2P?  You've been saying that since June.  I've asked you more than a dozen times for your source, a request you've ignored.  So since its been well over a month since you started railing on about this F2P nonsense when can we expect the game to go F2P?  Six months?  A year?  Got a source on any of this?

What does a failing MMO look like?  How many games "fail" but still make their development companies millions of dollars in profit?  I'm just curious what metric we're using for "failing" here.  Can you clarify?

 

http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2012/06/16/ea-weighs-in-on-star-wars-the-old-republic-going-free-to-play/

 

Really wish they would just get back to making good games like KOTOR 3 and Battlefront 3. 

#50 Posted by brad12d3 (1023 posts) -

[QUOTE="vishisluv7"] That about sums it up. Making yet another WoW wanna-be and pouring 100s of million$ into gimmicky voice over and hype marketing was just a bad move. Investing more money than any MMO ever into a genre when it's already been in decline for several years? After so many other "me-too" clones have failed as well. At least the others didn't sink this kind of fortune into a sinking ship.

Now they think a quickie switch to F2P will save the TORtanic. Should be interesting to watch. The model works for Turbine, but then, this is EA.Megotaku77

When is the game going F2P?  You've been saying that since June.  I've asked you more than a dozen times for your source, a request you've ignored.  So since its been well over a month since you started railing on about this F2P nonsense when can we expect the game to go F2P?  Six months?  A year?  Got a source on any of this?

What does a failing MMO look like?  How many games "fail" but still make their development companies millions of dollars in profit?  I'm just curious what metric we're using for "failing" here.  Can you clarify?

 

http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2012/06/16/ea-weighs-in-on-star-wars-the-old-republic-going-free-to-play/

 

Really wish they would just get back to making good games like KOTOR 3 and Battlefront 3.