Lessons we learned from past Silent Hills that Silent Hill 9 should be aware of.

From: UnfairRepresent | #076

You're literally ignoring close to everything I say and then tell me I'm disregarding details and missing points. But give no example of what they are.

So I'll ask you straight out, what do you want me to do here? Because all you've done is say I am ignorant and biased and delusional because I disagree with you. Which is partly childish, but more importantly completely pointless.

For one, it'd be pretty nice if you'd actually talk about the aspects of the game I brought up. I did ignore a lot of the stuff you mentioned about SH2, I admit, but only because you were being disrespectful first and mostly because I've already discussed that stuff to death. That one's on me, my bad.

I'm not disregarding anything, so much so that I'd really like to point out the fact you're claiming you hate SH2 because people like it. Then complaining that everyone else is trying to force views on you.

I hate SH2 because it's ugly, has clunky controls, has poor acting, one of its most iconic monsters was straight up stolen from another artist, and many aspects of the plot seem half assed. To me, it's a series of great ideas that fell flat. To this day I'm annoyed by quite a few of the details.

How does James up and run away from the town with a run away little girl in one ending?

Why were we forced to kill Eddie when he ran out of ammo and was pretty much defenseless?

Characters don't seem to be able to interact with Maria - and that makes sense, she's just a manifestation of James' psyche, it makes sense - but James interacts with Angela's manifestations just fine. In fact, why do the smaller versions of the Abstract Daddy even appear at all? You're in James' Otherworld, not Angela's.

All the games have little quirks that either bug me or get disregarded, but SH2 just bothers me. The fact that people treat it like perfection is just the icing on the cake. I'm all for differing opinions - if I wasn't, I wouldn't parade around my Shattered Memories and Homecoming boner - but SH2 fans go so far out of their way to prove to everyone on the planet that their favorite game is so much better than anything they may happen to enjoy.

And I'd like to very much regard that you have no idea what games I like and what I don't. You're just assuming I hate the new for being new, love the old for being old and then ignoring whatever I say because of that reason. Which again is stupid.

No I'm not. I'm assuming that you have an irrational bias against Homecoming in particular because you're going out of your way to disregard details that make it look like the developers put any kind of effort into it.

This is hypocritical. I talked about all of SH2's opening from the first scene to the first bit in the town. It was all well executed. Claiming it's just "a dude in a bathroom" is exactly what you keep accusing me of.

And yes, I think the fact the game kicks off and you're stabbing half naked nurses is a very valid criticism of Homecoming.

Simplify my point, I simplify yours.

You're missing my point. They didn't come up with the concept of Alex being sexually frustrated and then base aspects of the game around it. They came up with bringing back the popular sexy nurse, making it look cool and then added the symbolism later and didn't execute it as well.

Stop acting like you're an authority on the game. Did you work on it? Did you interview the people behind it? Furthermore, SH3's nurses are nearly identical to SH2's. Where's your argument against that? The only justification for there even being nurses in SH3 is that Alessa and Heather share a background. Even then, that doesn't exactly mesh with their new design. If anything, they should look like the puppet nurses from SH1.

From: UnfairRepresent | #086

disagree. I think it's plot is great and opposite of half-assed. It's really well paced and planned out, rewarding attention to detail. It's voice-acting isn't great but I like James and Angela's voices.

The controls I actually really like. Yes they are clunky and unpleasant but they're meant to be. I like the fact combat is awkward and mostly not worth it. Making fleeing always an option and exploring never comfortable.

I disagree and stand by my points. The acting? I think Laura was the only character that genuinely sounded great to me. Everyone else ranged from passable to dreadful. The controls were a step back from SH1's for me. Even with the 2D control option, James felt clunky compared to Harry. I really liked the backstep in SH1, for example. Shame that was gone.

I don't get this question. He comes to terms with what he did and has a car? (there's also another theory on that ending that I won't get into because I think it's bogus)

No, I mean, how did he get away with it? For one, it's generally accepted that Laura is in the real world the whole time. That presents some issues with their interaction. Was Laura just running around town talking to no one? And when they left, we can assume James has reentered the real world. Laura ran away from wherever she was staying. It's a missing kid running away with a strange man. It's nitpicky, but we know James disappeared after SH2. It's like that ending in Homecoming that implies Josh has been resurrected, it's just too odd for me to really accept, even within the bounds of Silent Hill.

Because he was trying to kill us. James never wanted to kill him, it was self-defense.

It stopped being self defense when he ran out of bullets. They forced a decision on players and the story that branched from it seemed a bit flimsy. If it had been a choice, I feel like it could've worked. But the way things went, it just seemed pointless. What's the fat, out of breath guy gonna do to the dude packing a steel pipe, a shotgun, a magical spray can, etc, etc?

I agree with the Abstract Daddy's in the hotel being unneeded. People say it;s because Angela is nearby but I still don't like it. However I would say that I wouldn't put the monsters and Maria on the same level. They're quite different. I could imagine someone glimpsing into James' otherworld and seeing PH but glimpsing into James' otherworld and seeing Maria just would be kinda pointless.

It's not that I see them as if they're n the same level, so much as I feel like the fact that Maria was invisible to everyone else is wasted and a bit inconsistent. It feels like they had an idea, didn't do anything with it, then just kind of forgot about it. It's not that seeing Maria would make a difference, it's that intruding on one of Angela's most interesting, horrific scenes kind of hurts an otherwise fantastic scene. Truth be told, I'd say most of my SH2 hate stems from James and his involvement in this story. I would KILL for a re-imagining from Angela's point of view.

No I think the nurses are unnecessary in SH3 as well. I never denied that. But "They did it too!" is no defense of Homecoming.

I'm not saying it makes it okay, I'm saying that the Nurses and nurse-like monsters are a constant theme in SH and it's hard for me to hold it against Homecoming when it did a better job of justifying them than SH3 did.

And Matt, MGS2 came out the same year SH2 did. Its acting blows it away. Jak and Daxter was the same year, too, and that had great acting. Hell, SH1's acting is better. And some of the actors ARE professionals. In fact, Angela's actor came back in SH3 as Claudia and she did an amazing job. Age isn't much of an excuse, really.

From: UnfairRepresent | #096

Heh, I thought Laura was one of the weaker ones.

You're not alone, I hear that a lot. Never quite understood, I think the kid did an amazing job.

Well this is speculation but the implication for Laura is that because she was young and innocent, Silent Hill wasn't ****ed up for her. And the nightmares James, Angela and Eddie endured were of their own creation. Larua had no nightmare to create. That's why she gets around safely with no fear and keeps James locked in the room. And Laura was with Eddie, then went off her own to find Mary. Considering how little time passes in the game and her determination. This is not that hard a buy at all.

However there is an alternate theory, I don't want to get into in this topic much because I don't really like it but some people think Laura was a manifestation just like Maria, to get Eddie and James back on track.

I can accept that she gets around the town fine, but something about the idea of her just leaving with James at the end seems a bit odd to me. It's similar to the endings where Mary is seemingly resurrected and Maria leaves with James. It just seems a bit weird that he managed to leave with these dead people, twins of dead people, and runaway children without anyone batting an eyelash.

Beat you to death? James is fitter than Eddie but no fighter. I don't think this is a fair complaint. And once Eddie had gone that nutty and was trying to kill you, having James "knock him out and tie him up" just seems silly.

I'm not even saying he should've tied him up or anything, I feel like he could've been reasoned with. He was crazy, but not totally lost. Even if he was, knocking him out and leaving him would've been fine for me.

Ah come on, how can you say that? Maria was great and nearly every scene with her was worthwhile. I don't get what more you wanted from her that wouldn't just tarnish her.

What would you want her to do with Eddie or Angela? Other than kinda get in the way of their quite personal stories? And considering her attachment to Laura through Mary it'd have been really weird if they met up.

Ever played Born From A Wish?/

No, Maria's great, I like her just fine. I just feel like that one little detail creates inconsistencies that could've been avoided. Her interactions aren't what's important, it's fine that the other characters don't see her. I just think it's silly that they go out of their way to show us that everyone has their own otherworld and exclusive details when we stomp right in and swat Angela's down.

They worked in SH1 from Alessa's mind, they worked in SH2 from James' mind. 3 and Homecoming were just rehashing ideas for popularity sake.

I disagree, they can work in any game. Homecoming just did a better job of explaining them than 3.

From: UnfairRepresent | #099

We don't. She never leaves her Otherworld (that we know of) the last we see of her is her still enduring it. We fight one monster but that's it. She has to ultimately face her destiny the same way James does. And chances our from her personality it won't go well. You make it sound like we waltz in and save her.

You kind of do waltz in and save her, though. The Daddy seemed to have the upper hand until James busted in. Regardless, it's the idea that you're invading what's meant to be a manifestation of her most personal feelings regarding her situation with her father. It's a beautiful setup and the symbolism involved with the creature itself and the setting was unsettling and amazing... But then James happens upon it with no explanation given.

You see I think this is the fundamental thing that makes you not get on with fans of the earlier games.

You don't mind just tacking on a weak explanation to random stuff and rolling with it.

The other fans like the attention to detail and the fact that things matter, people look and act how they do for a reason and it all circles round either back to the main plot or the main character to help sell the impression of being ****ed with. Rehashing old characters from older games with no real connection to the plot of the new game and just kinda making up a reason will put a lot of fans off.

That's not it. Literally every fan of the older games I've argued with beyond yourself pretends it's okay for the early games to do exactly that and damn the new ones for it. That and, like yourself, they refuse to give any credit to particular games. No offense meant. Homecoming explained the borrowed elements. They explained it. Personal feelings don't matter, they put forth the effort to justify it whether the designs were borrowed or not. It's no different from SH2 using nurses after the first game did. The design was differentiated itself a bit better, but a nurse is a nurse and all they did was change the explanation. Homecoming did work them into their overarching symbolism the way SH2 did, too. SH2 added the more sexualized design to fit into the obviously sexual theme. Homecoming added the fetus - subtle as it was - to fit the birth and family imagery.

It's not that I'm okay with haphazard borrowing, after all I still dislike the complete lack of explanation for the nurses in Origins (And, coincidentally, I STILL have no idea why they were redesigned in the PS2 port. Someone explain that ****. It was so jarring jumping to the PS2 version and seeing new nurses.), but I'm willing to accept that sometimes developers actually do things on purpose with these games. If the symbolism within the story supports it, it's fine.