@DunKy_G All the games you mentioned have one critical flaw: They separate story telling from gameplay. It should be fused together as one, an idea that Valve realized long, long ago yet gaming's still catching up to it.

@Grovilis: yea, im rather surprised though, the "end sarcasm" part was pretty punctual when i started to make my case, but i digress though, my intent though, was that with an interview such as this, i find it... Well, to put it bluntly just sheer laziness on this particular Dev. Team's part, that they would even consider to focus less on story & more on gameplay (which i have absolutely nothing against BETTER gameplay) is terrible For me, gaming is my number 1 hobby, my joy, i love the immersive feeling that alot of games can offer me, (perfect examples being Mass Effect, MGS, any game with a deep and rich, but yet captivating storyline is a win in my book, but that also does NOT excuse piss poor gameplay) So yea, my initial statement when i first saw this... "Travesty" of sorts was a spot on reflection of my emotions to it, and personally, and even more, now that i recently played Twisted Metal (2012) i feel that its single player had suffered quite a bit from news such as this, from previous Twisted Metal titles (Black being the BEST of them ALL) im used to picking a character & goin thru the campaign until i earned their ending, now? I felt rather jyped

@armydominican69 I was only using RTS games as an example because you were basically saying that games are derivative and mindless simply because they don't have a story. My apologies if I didn't understand exactly what you said, but your statement was rather broad and could be easily taken several ways.

@Grovilis: did you even read my comment, when did i say anything against RTS games? Seriously why are you taking my words out of context?

I have to say I disagree, look at the Uncharted trilogy or Metal Gear Solid series - are you going to say these are not great games. There may be an argument that story telling is not always implemented effectively however this does not mean it doesn't have a place. Assassin's Creed, would this be a better game without the story it was based around and simply mindless running around knifing people?? Other than for instance a sport game e.g. F1 2012 then I expect a deep story.. it for me is the difference between a good game and a great game. The way I see it and this for me is what should epitomise gaming is that, a book or film may dictate a great story but a game allows be to be part of one which is entirely more fulfilling.

Completely agree with real_shengar and jayd02!

Last: I really hate people who said "if you want story, read a book in library or go to movies for some films" Such simple minded incompetent people.

People who think that game are bad medium for story and delusioned by freedom in video games, should only play games like Angry Birds and Farmville. Really, are you that shallow to think that video games are bad medium? I don't have for this nonsense. People plays too much games with shallow story or even games with no story whatsoever so their mind become to the point too dumb to understand stories.

People who said game are bad medium for storytelling, they should try to play Planescape, Space Rangers 2, Dragon Age: Origins, and many other great titles. Are we really want video gaming turn into brainless and mindless fun like most multiplayer game is? No, of course not. Although I agree that games shouldn't sacrifice much for story, that doesn't mean games shouldn't have any story att all. that staement would be idiotic. Just as like any people who always frikkin craving for illusion of freedom in video games

To ease some people on this let me try and clear up what he said. He isn't totally against video games telling stories, or having stories. He is against games that sacrifice gameplay and innovation for the sake of trying to tell a story. I would have to agree with that statement. I don't know about other gamers but when I play video games I don't want a history lesson about WWII, I don't want to learn how to make a cake. When I sit down to play a game I want something that I can't find in real life, or at least something that can take me away from real life. I like video games with a story, but when that story takes over the game and I'm no longer playing a game but watching a story then it's no good to me.

Finally someone speaks up about this trend. Hopefully it will have some pull, and enlighten some people on what this means for gaming. As he said, gaming is a bad medium for telling stories -- it could be done much better as a book, perhaps even a movie. Hopefully his speech will make more people aware. Games like the Uncharted series have gotten so much praise, but they are almost literally like a big budget Hollywood movie with a mediocre story. Good production values all around, but almost no gameplay, no freedom . Every aspect of the gameplay is almost 100% automated, there's no sense of progress of any kind in gameplay, That shallow gameplay quickly turns into a chore as well, cause, basically, the only incentive the game offers you for playing is to hit the next story trigger - which makes quite a statement about its gameplay. It's not an awful game, it's technically awesome, and it's more or less the trend of incorporating Hollywood into gaming I dislike. When titles like U3 get such extremely good media coverage, reviews and sells really well, it will most likely start a trend. It may just turn out to be a fad, or it may result in several developers copying the style and turning the "Hollywood style moviegame story" into a much more accepted form of gamemaking.

Nonsense.

@wepeel I agree with jaffe in another respect as well - Deus Ex (HR) is probably one of the most amazingly COMPLETE games of this generation. No, not in terms of features, but from the shear fact that you can play in multiple styles of gaming (stealth, shooter, hacker [puzzle], conversation/simulation/rpg, or even goodcop/badcop). The great thing is, I'm having so much fun with this game, and I don't even care/know what's happening in the story right now! Yes, the graphics/characters are somewhat bland, but who cares if the level and gameplay design is THIS varied and well executed. Well, in short, if you're as "jaded" as I am, you'll come to see this too. In fact people who don't see this are just blind. I think story is important, like you said, but if the gameplay isn't good, the whole experience just falls apart.

@wepeel Gameplay comes first, and when you can't get that, the illusion of this "story/world" is shattered. I'll give 2 more examples - first, my friend constantly brings up Mass Effect 1 and its elevator loading. Although this was suppose to "immerse" the play into ME's world, the fact that you can't control your character at all (you can't move) just pulled us out of this world. You realize it's just a game - ironically, in this case, it was the lack of gameplay that lead you to believe that it was just a game, and nothing special. Another example is uncharted - for me, playing any of the uncharted games (and I've played them all) more than once is asking for too much, since the gameplay is unbelievable shallow and void of identity, and since you know how the story goes already, you don't want to play the game. You KNOW a game is bad if it's the story that pulls you through, not excellent/addictive/fun gameplay. Alot of people think UC3 was alot was worse than UC2, but they're quite the same - people (including myself) were just too blind to see that the story/graphics overshadowed the shallow gameplay back in UC2.

@wepeel It really depends on where "you're at" in terms of playing video games - for me, I've been there and done that (although I'm "only" *ahem* 22 years old), and I've been objective enough to see past the graphics and story trappings of today's games. When you've come to the point where you care about games and can predict where it's going (like Jaffe, and me also), you'll THEN see how shallow things are. Jaffe made a good point in terms of Batman AC - controlling the camera (ie, just wiggling your right thumb) is not immersive in terms of gameplay - and for me that's enough to make me not immersed in the story.

[This message was deleted at the request of the original poster]

Sooo.. your saying.. you could make Kratos's story even better.. MOVIE. NOW.

wait chocolate and tuna fish? how about... chocolate fish xP

TBH i think he's right because games are something that you play when you are 'young' and hopefully grow out of or move into the industry as a dev to make money. When you try to make it 'meaingful' and 'more' the audience is mostly of idiots that will have no idea what to do with the valuable lessons brought in from other mediums. The amounts of stories that 'get through' are kind of limited by the audience. However, you cannot compare other sports and poker to videogames because the athletes or poker players create stories IRL that are on a completely different level to those found in videogames. Athletes endure so many more hardships than eSports competitors that is really embarrassing that people pay so much attention to games.

I like games that actually tell a good story, if every game had no story and you just ran around killing/destroying/hunting for things.. don't you think that would get boring very quickly?

So... in conclusion Twisted Metal gonna BLOW?

Wow, Great vid. I totally agree with the care bear.

Jaffe MVP

Thanks David for taking the time to comeout and talking to us. I I agree with what you are saying David and you know what? This generation I have been so lost on deciding what games I want to play and always thought "I just want to jump in a world and do as I wish" the story to me gets in the way of that. I have decided to stick to arcade type games only now and anything fun with no story. I can see why most like the story but its just not for me and if anything I will creat my own story like you said. Thanks!

I don't know where I stand on this as a fan of both SotC and MGS. SotC has a very short and sweet style of story telling while MGS has three to five hours worth of cut scenes depending on which game, and I thought both of their respective styles worked well for what they were trying to do.

i get what he's saying, but i don't think its that cut and dry. there are games i love to play for the simple mechanics that have basically no story, and there are games that have amazing stories and pretty good gameplay that i also love to play. it all depends on what i feel like doing. the wonderful thing about games now a days is there are so many varying types, people can pick and choose what type they want

There are some games that do a good job of combining story and gameplay, but in most they don't mix well. LA Noire had an amazing story, but slow gameplay, while Modern Warfare has had either a non-existent story (MW1), a shamelessly stupid story (MW2), or a mix of both (MW3).

@glitch2424 The thing is that it isn't all about gameplay anymore, even though people like David Jaffe seem to want to pretend that it is. The flat-out enjoyment from playing a game can come from a sense of immersion or excitement or awe just as well as from the gameplay itself. Ninja Gaiden 1 and 2 are good examples of this - they have almost identical gameplay, but in the sequel most of the story and adventure elements were stripped away, leaving only the core gameplay mechanics, i.e. the combat. Some people may have felt this streamlined the game and focused on what was good, but personally I just felt it was made more shallow and devoid of purpose.

Jaffe seems like a smart guy and I think he had great ideas for GoW1 before he got too deep into the philosophy he speaks of here. In this I don't agree with him at all however, and he seems way too narrow in his view and the examples he mentions. The Metal Gear Solid games for instance, are conspicuously absent, even though they are completely story-driven and almost always put story ahead of gameplay. It seems Jaffe himself must have full mechanical control over a game character at all times in order to feel immersed in the game, but for me it has never worked like that.

history matter history made us so that talk was b"#$"#

It really depends on the game. For me, personally, I enjoy a game where the story unfolds through gameplay rather than cutscenes and experiences rather than narration. (Half Life 2 and Ep 1 and 2 are a perfect example.) That said, I do believe that a creative team can make it work either way and developers should go into any project with an open mind in order to create the best possible finished product.

I agree and I disagree, -I agree in that games that do not focus so heavily on story allow you to create your own in your mind, to execute what you want or visualize how you want ti to be. Playing like this is like writing a novel without writing. A choose you own destiney kind of way and I think that's kind of what he means. -I disagree because I love some games that are more story driven, they're like reading a book, they suck you in and allow you to know a character rather then chisel one out in a less story driven game.

You tell it as it is, jaffe!!! :) I couldn't agree more - using video game resources to tell a story in games is just a waste - and in the end, it's self-defeating to the medium of interactive entertainment. I wrote a piece (well, a BLOG) on 1up.com about how uncharted 2 did video games a disservice and service at the same time. U2 made video games more attractive to cinema enthusiasts, but in end made the line blur between videogames and movies - which is a bad thing, just because videogames will not have a separate identity from movies, and gameplay - what videogames is all about - will suffer in the process

@battlefrontphil ND has great story-telling, but in the end it's all about gameplay. SuperMarioGalaxy2 (I didn't play the first one) had EXCELLENT gameplay - super smooth, responsive, and different. I had 4x more genuine fun with SMG2 than I did with Uncharted 1, 2, and 3.

Sir, Naughty Dog would like a word with you...

THIS man is right - games made on story facts limit the creativeness of gameplay mechnics.

But... God of War is all cinematic gameplay. Very little choices and lots of slashing around with the same combo's over and over. (Not saying it's easy.) I see his point and games with lots of choice and freedom and where the player decides what the fk to do next rather than being pushed into a direction are definitely better and more compelling, most of the time. But, games are games. Let the designer of the game choose what to do, and if you enjoy the game that is all that matters, in my opinion. If you don't like games that are linear then don't play them...

Games like MW3 are sucessful because most people apparently want mindless crap to play for hours on end without having to really think at all. If all games ever headed in that direction, count me out.

Jaffe, one of the brighter minds.

The best games i have ever played had a good story, so i dont agree with him, i guess he is just becoming lazy and ran out of ideas.The truth is that some games combine great the gameplay with the story and some dont.

Want to know a developer that has nailed the balance between story-telling and gameplay? From Software. Dark Souls had the story, but it also had the gameplay. The story was only present if you looked for it, and that's what made it so intriguing. Instead of forcing hours and hours of dialogue and pointless books down your throat (*cough* Skyrim *cough*), it told the story through the gameplay. There are a few other games that have done this well. Limbo is one example.

Just having finished watching "Great Players Make Games Better" -- Richard Hilleman's speech at D.I.C.E. -- I recommend it to people who felt strongly (one way or the other) about Jaffe's speech. You can tell Hilleman himself isn't comfortable in front of a microphone, either -- but he is very objective in his speaking and does an excellent job of framing his points with relevant context. His perspective (power to the gamers, more or less) resembles Jaffe's, but is presented in a more informative and positive manner.

for a very accomplished video game creator that whole lecture was very naive. most successful console games on the market are story driven. that's one of the main things we look for as players. halo would not have been halo if it would have been a straight up FPS with a slight story. we all fell in love with master chief and the world created around him. same goes for bioshock ("would you kindly?"). thats not to say that games lacking a story aren't relevant, they are. but to totally immerse the player there should be a story so the player can form a bond with the characters and setting. prime example would be almost any Finanl Fantasy (X is the best IMO). i dunno i just don't agree with that.

Fascinating hypothesis.

Incredible talk from Jaffe. I feel as though this should be a TED talk. I think capturing what the gaming medium is about is really when games excel. Even though games like Mass Effect and Skyrim give you the ability to choose what your character does, and how the story plays out, you are playing that game because you genuinely enjoy the choices, not the story. Any great story could be substituted into those types of gaming and it would work. I think what Jaffe is getting at here is that Hollywood and "cinematic" stories should stay away from games and I totally get that. We all have seen games that are "cinematic" like Call of Duty and Uncharted and we really couldn't give less of a crap about the story. Give games a story that works within those respective games and THEN you have something special. Because games are interactive, story telling cannot be the same as it is in books or movies and it definitely should not be. Finding gaming storytelling all in its own rite is what this really is about. Don't take queues from something that is a completely different medium altogether. Make something original and make it your own.

well i get it but stories also make the game. Everyone is excited for halo 4 not really for the gameplay but for what happens to master chief. Gears of war is another one. great gameplay and the story was awsome specially if you read the novels with it. its freaking great. I get bored playing sand box type things. doing the same thing over and over can be fun such as FPS or some RTS games but i also like to change the world through my actions. In Mass Effect i want to deffend the human race from aliens cause its just bad ass i think and find out what happens. The only games now adays who dont care about the story are games whos purchasing power is within the multiplayer. Only games that have a strong multiplayer aspect or maybe just an interesting sandbox type play should do this. RPG a role playing game cannot exsit without stories. But COD and BF3 dont really need them cause thats not why ppl buy the game that might be part of it but mostly its for the multiplayer. Also gameplay should not be affected by a story there two different aspects of the game although connected dont depend on each other outside of what the game is. just my 2 cents

"The best part was right at the end..." (facktion1) Yes, because he quit talking. Seriously: Some of what Jaffe says does make sense, but his ideas can't (or shouldn't) be implemented across the board. There are plenty of games which tell stories; some of them are astoundingly great, others are absolutely horrible. Jaffe could have helped his cause by being much more objective. He spends so much time with rhetoric against how bad "storytelling" in games is, while offering no new innovative ideas about how to progress away from storytelling. If he would have spent half his speech mentioning games (and game elements) which are compatible with his ideas, that would have been much more uplifting and informative. At times, he just wanders and rambles with questionable points -- as an example, he talks about the cookie commercial that makes him cry, and he asks why can't games be more like that. Question, Jaffe: why can't other commercials be like that? They can't all be like that, because the people who make commercials (and games) all have different levels of skills and abilities. Flight simulators and puzzle games don't typically have stories; does this make them a superior genre? No. Likewise, story-heavy games can be great or awful - and it depends on the skill and abilities of the developers.

That's his opinion. CoD apart big AAA games gave great story. Tomb Raider, Resident Evil, Final Fantasy, Uncharted, Assassin's Creed. They have been telling a story since ever. Even Skyrim, even if it is broken into a hundred questlines. Let's the market decide. Why does he try to convince us? Make a single player story-less game and see how it performs. But don't cry if (actually when) it will be a flop.

You quit the story I'm quittin the gaming simple as that, yeah even Twisted Metal wouldn't be what it is today if it had not a good or a mediocre story.

He is totally wrong.. I play games and usually about mid game I find the gameplay repetitive. What keeps me going is the story. I'll take FF X-2 as an example: I fuc*ing hated the whole childish approach to that game but I finished it twice just because i cared about the story and characters from FFX