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#1  Edited By SciFiRPGfan
Member since 2010 • 694 Posts

I think that the way Gamespot approached the reviewing process of Bioshock Infinite is actually the best one as it combines the best of both worlds.

For the people, who want a more conventional review (like me) which could most likely serve as a buyer's guide for anyone whose tastes do not differ too much from the most prevalent opinions / preferences in the gaming community, there's Kevin Van Ord's review which IRC was available around the time the Bioshock Infinite was released (i.e. at the time when most people were mostly deciding whether to buy the game or not) and for the people who want something different than just a standard buyer's guide-ish review (like some posters here) or downright want reviewers to go against popular opinions and challenge established standards, there's Tom McShea's review which was published some time after BI's release (i.e. at the time when a lot of people have already beaten the game and were more interested in discussing the qualities of the game rather than deciding whether to give it a shot or not).

So... yeah. I want to give GS little a bit of praise as well. But not to specific reviewer or for specific review, but to the GS staff who have decided to give this "2nd opinion" approach a shot.

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#2 SciFiRPGfan
Member since 2010 • 694 Posts

I think what you're failing to grasp is that this work is not for people like you and me. See, there's this very common phenomenon in which artists start off producing works that are more realistic. They master the techniques required to make people look like people and ducks look like ducks. Then they get bored with that, they feel constrained by it, and then they just start doing things however they want. Look at Pablo Picasso as an example. I'm willing to bet that for at least some of these artists, they aren't trying to "demonstrate skill" because for them they've already demonstrated it. They've already gone through that stage in their work, they've already demonstrated their skill to their audience (who happens to be the fine art community, not you and I), skill is a foregone conclusion. Now granted, I'm still not saying that these works of art are any good. I wouldn't know. But the existence of such works make a lot more sense when we come to the realization that these artists probably aren't trying to communicate with us. MrGeezer

But, to say the least, I think that we (the laymen) can commentate on / criticize the discipline / style as a whole IMO. At least within our limited knowledge and perspective. After all, whoever disagrees or has better knowledge, can always step in and offer superior (in terms of knowledge and understanding) perspective.

The lack of knowledge on "our" part mostly means that we can't judge how well are artists doing within the parameters and goals of their particular style / discipline. But, I think that we can still say (without embarrasing ourselves), that we don't like said style / discipline as a whole as long as we can state relatively reasonable justificiations. 

For example, somebody in the comment section in that article hinted, that the purpose of modern art might actually be to "recapture the creativity and playfulness of children's art" (or something like that). If that was the case, then yeah, most people would probably agree that the artists really did excellent jobs, because those pictures indeed did resemble pictures drawn by children. That said, that would not (and should not) prevent anyone from saying that while they think that the authors might have done an excellent job at imitating children's art, they do not like those pictures, because they do not consider "imitating children's art" a discipline / direction worthy enough of being praised (or something like that).

Now, like you said, "we" don't know the actual reasons why those pictures look the way they look, but chances are, that even if "we" did, some of us would still criticize them and I don't think that there would be anything wrong with that. Otherwise, people would practically have to preface all their criticism with disclaimers that they are aware that the author might have not made the criticzed work of art with their preferences in mind and that there might be other people who like such work of art / style and whatnot, which sounds pretty impractical to say the least. 

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#4 SciFiRPGfan
Member since 2010 • 694 Posts

[QUOTE="WhiteKnight77"]

I got 8/11. Art and whether it is good or not is subjective and while some can appreciate modern or contemporary art, others will see it as just a bunch of paint tossed (brushed) on a canvas. Others may prefer Da Vinci over Picaso. There is no one way to look at art and no two people will look at a painting the same way.

MrGeezer

People can look at things however they look at things, but that doesn't mean that all interpretations are equally valid. If nothing else, art is primarily about communication. And communication cannot work when the speaker and the listener aren't operating on at least some of the same "rules". I'm not denying that there's an element of subjectivity involved, but this stuff is NOT as subjective as many people tend to make it out to be.


I don't know... You might be right about the communication being the most important thing, but for a lot of people, a very important element is also some form of display of skill of the artist - i.e. display of something that would set him apart from most people and tell those people that they couldn't make a work of art like that without extensive practice / immense talent.

When it comes to works of art like the ones in OP's link, many people (including myself) seem to be missing that element (at least to certain degree). The ideas behind those pictures, the methods which the artists have decided to use,... might be amazing (once explained to laymen like me), but as long as (substantial group of) people will have a feeling like "yeah, I could probably do that too with a bit of practice", there will always be people who will challenge the quality / value of such art.

And maybe there should be. Because only in the environment in which works of arts, which do not display the author's unique and superior skill / talent properly, are chellenged, the works of arts which do so can be properly distinguished and appreciated. 

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#5 SciFiRPGfan
Member since 2010 • 694 Posts

I am legitimately curious what is it that causes you to hold human life in higher regard?  I'm not implying that it's a bad thing, but I just want to hear the reasoning.TacticalDesire

For me, it would mostly come down to me being a human being myself, the fact that humans have played and still play much more important role in my life than any other life form and maybe also the question of a complexity of creatures (in general).  

Being a human being myself, I can imagine better what it would feel like to suffer the same way as some person in some video / article does than I can imagine what it would feel like if I were some kind of animal in the same position. The human feelings are more familiar to me and therefore are more relatable to me as well. Also, I might be a bit biased in favour of my own species. :P

The fact, that humans affect my life more than any other life form most like likely also plays important role in that. Sure, some suffering individual may have never done anything (good) for me, but then again, neither probably has some suffering animal. However, if I would aggregate everything (good and bad) that have humans done for me and compare it with everything that have animals done for me, the humans would come out as much more important factor in my life.  

And thirdly, it might be a question of a complexity of life forms. In general, the more complex and refined some organism is, the more respect I feel twards it and the bigger waste I think that it would be to see it go (there are exceptions tho as I hate some types of creatures such as parasites, dangerous insect and whatnot >.< ). And in that regard, I consider the humans to be the most developed and complex life form.

Anyway, it's not that uncommon to see people holding human life in higher regard than the life of animals. Just look at almost any criminal law - the punishments for crimes against humans on average tend to be much more severe than punishments for crimes against animals.

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#6 SciFiRPGfan
Member since 2010 • 694 Posts

Anyway, reviews don't interest me much anymore like before, since I now have other, far superior, means of deciding if I want a game or not. If I'm going tor ead a review now, I want it to provide commentary of stuff about the game, what they thought about that particular aspect. If they are simply objective reviews, they are completely useless to someone who already bought or is going to buy a game. The true value for a review for me begins after I finish the game and want to discuss it and see what other people thought about the game/TV episode/movie.Willy105

I don't know... The whole concept of using reviews primarily as platforms for starting (or downright provoking) discussions rather than using them as buyer's guides sounds kind of inefficient to me.

Usually, at the time of a publication of a review a vast majority of people haven't even played the game, so when / if something controversial is brought to the table by said review, most people can't discuss it properly. They can only speculate and theorize based on what is written in the article which is not enough (the descriptions in reviews may turn out to be inaccurate or exaggerated or the reviewer may receive a lot of flak for what turns out to be true, but at the time of the review it did not sound like a big deal,...)  

OTOH, when the people finally didplay and finish the game, the "storm" provoked by the review has already (mostly) passed away - some people might have moved on to other articles, others just may not want to discuss same issues again, the reviewers might not even be available to reply to at that point finally more accurate and more substantiated feedback,...

To me, it just sounds much more natural and efficient to write an opinionated article / editorial some time after the game has been released and after the players had a chance to try the game for themselves.

In addition to having the audience which finally knows what exactly has the writer in mind when he / she is talking about specific situations in the game, other benefits are that the writer may not focus on the whole game, but only on his / her own subjective issues with the game and no one will blame him / her for wasting too much of review's space / time on it and the fact that less damage is done to almost everyone (to the game and developers, to the fans who may find review too biased, to the reviewer who would probably receive more flak if his / her criticism was materialized through a review with a score than through some additional article,...).

IGN had (Or still has? Haven't been there for a while.) a section called "Second opinions". I dunno how well it worked out for them or if it really was utilized for posting opinions / ideas which did not make it to their reviews, but I can't see why gaming sites couldn't use something like that for posting their less mainstream opinions and starting more controversial debates through that.

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#7 SciFiRPGfan
Member since 2010 • 694 Posts

It may be good in some cases; however, you should also consider the fact that fans always want their game to score as high as possible. The more popular the game is, the higher expectation the fans will have. Sure there are fans who agree with the score and understand where the reviewer comes from, but the vast majority of them are ready to butcher every criticism of the game from the reviewer. Therefore, if you don't want to upset the majority of a fanbase, just give the game a 10. rjdofu

Well, giving all popular games (near) perfect scores would defeat or at least weaken the purpose of reviewing them in the first place. I can agree with that.

I am not sure if I am able to distinguish when it's just a group of vocal fans / fanboys and when it's like a legitimate majority of Gamespot's audience tho.

Maybe it's something that can be figured out or at least guessed more accurately from both the number of negative comments and their content (validity of criticism)? I dunno. Gamespot does have a show where they focus on comments from their readers, so maybe careful analysis could help them find balance between what they want to say about games, what most of their audience would want to hear and what both the audience and reviewers agree that needs to be said about games. 

The reviewers should NOT say what we want to hear, they must say what we NEED to hear, that's why criticism is so important.


I would say that this part needs the most work and communication between the reviewers and their audience, as sometimes I get the impression that not both parties agree on what needs to be said (heard).

IMO one of the best ways to instigate broader discussions about "what needs to be said" about videogames is through editorials and various opinionated articles. There, the reviewers can present their occasionally unique outlooks on videogames without harming specific games as much as they would if they did it through their reviews and they can also get stright to their points (specific issues) without having to bother with the rest of the reviews.

I believe that the conclusions reached through more general discussions could then be useful for individual reviews. In best case scenario, the parties (reviewers and audience / part of the audience who disagrees with reviewers) would find some kind of middleground, in worst case scenario, the parties would at least get to know each other's stances better and be prepared for reviews and their consequences. :P

 I agree that the reviewer can shape themselves to public demand (by changing the writing style, not overly harsh or attempting to hit fishing) and try to be as objective as possible (by mentioning which types of audience will be attracted to the game)., but ONLY to some extent. I have no respect to reviewers who just bend over to the whiny fanboys and write whatever the fanboys wanna read instead of stating his or her own opinion, that MIGHT be important to certain people who are serious in their purchase.

Well, as a reviewer you would be "trading" interests of an already known part of your audience (fans / fanboys), who you have better idea about what they are looking for, for an uknown (potentially non-existing) part of your audience who just "might" find your different approach more useful? I dunno. That sounds like a quite risky trade off to say the least.

On a principle, I could agree with it as I would not like to see the dictate of the fanboys to be the norm either. However, such approach would have to turn out to be useful to some signifficant part of the audience eventually. Otherwise it would be just reviewers completely misunderstanding the needs of their audience and it that case it would probably be better if they changed their minds.

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#8 SciFiRPGfan
Member since 2010 • 694 Posts

From Gamespot's review guidelines:

Your time and your money are on the line when you're deciding whether or not you should purchase (or rent) a game. Our editorial staff consists of discerning, value-conscious game players, and it's been our mission since 1996 to provide all the information you need to decide whether a given game is right for you...

...Our reviews are written with the prospective customer in mind--someone who's naturally interested in playing a new game and has a limited amount of time and money to spend. Our editors approach each review strictly from that perspective. In turn, our reviews are not intended to validate or support the beliefs of hardcore fans, nor are they intended to provide feedback to developers or publishers about how a given game could have been improved. Our reviews are only designed to tell you, the game player, to what extent a game is worth your while.


As long as Gamespot and other gaming sites will at least pretend that they are here to "advise us" on what games should "we" as gamers and prospective customers look into, I don't want them to be completely subjective and I want them to have "our" preferences and tastes in mind when reviewing games.

Now, that may be a difficult and sometimes probably downright impossible thing to do (since sometimes the opinions among gamers themselves vary so much that there is no prevailing outlook on how some elements in videogames should be handled...), but I have no doubts, that there are instances when it is possible to figure out what the majority of Gamespot's / some other gaming site's audience is looking for. After all, there's always a ton of feedback for reviews, GoTYs, polls,... 

E.g. (I might be making this up, I didn't pay that much attention, so sorry in advance), if a reviewer criticizes GTA 5 for being "too misogynistic" and there's overhelming feedback for the review from people saying that it's O.K. for a game to be that misogynistic and that the reviewer shouldn't put that much emphasis on it (at least while reviewing the game), then the next time I would logically expect that reviewer (or any other) to not put that much emphasis on whether the game is too misogynistic or not.

It's just a common sense to me. If somebody asks me to suggest him some good games to play, the first thing I would do would not be name my favourite ones, but to ask him what kind of games he likes / what he is looking for in games and then adjust my answer accordingly.

Like I said, it's much harder to do it when the one being advised is not a single guy but an entire audience which may consist of tens of thousands of people, but I still believe that there are instances when the reviewers could do a bit better job at taking the preferences of (majority of) their audience into account when reviewing games.

Reviews should first and foremost be useful to as many people as possible. For more refined and opinionated discussions, the writers could easily use editorials, blogs and such IMO.

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#9 SciFiRPGfan
Member since 2010 • 694 Posts

So by empowering women, we've disempowered men, stunting their growth to adulthood? I don't agree. Just because more and more women are out there making a life for themselves doesn't mean men have less opportunity for success. Men can still be men while man-children choose to remain man-children.Guppy507

That would depend on what one would mean by "opportunity for success".

If it was about the amount of women available for relationships (given that the article seems to be more or less mostly about relationships and expectations of genders from each other, I am completely skipping other areas such as career opportunities and whatnot), then yes, the "opportunity" should be more or less the same as has always been as there does not seem to be a shortage of women who would want to be in relationships. But if one would mean the overall difficulty of getting into relationship with a suitable partner, then I am missing on your part arguments as to why you disagree with the article.

You say "men can still be men", but that in itself may not necessarily be in contradiction with the article (or the extract in OP) since one could interpret the article as claims that what it means to be / act like a "man" is changing ("The culture at large is uncertain about what it wants from its men.", "Many women seem to want men that are confident and have a strong sense of themselves. At the same time, they are put off by too much masculine, authoritativeness.") and that some men are finding it difficult (or not worth?) to live up to those supposedly changing standards.

Personally, I think that there might be something about it or to say the least, the line of (very simplified and blunt) reasoning...
1. Women are "empowered". -> 2. They start to grow (as persons or otherwise). -> 3. Their expectations for their prospective partners grow / change as a result of their own growth / change. -> 4. (Some) Men find it more difficult to meet those growing / changing expectations of women from them. -> 5. Some decide to give up on / to not rush to to meeting those new expectations (and become menchildren?).
... does not seem that flawed to me. :?

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#10 SciFiRPGfan
Member since 2010 • 694 Posts

Not sure if I would call myself a PC gamer. I do play games on PC, but I don't play much, so I dunno if I am really a "gamer". :?

Anyway... No.

Nowadays, I almost exclusively play WRPGs, action WRPGs or at least action games with a bit of freedom of exploration and few RPG elelments here and there (e.g. Dishonored) and most of those are multiplatforms, so I manage to get by by only having a PC just fine.

And since even most of upcoming games that interest me are coming to PC as well, I am not contemplating purchasing a console let alone be excited about it at all. I am a bit worried about potential jumps in system requirements in upcoming years tho. Given that, like I said, I don't play much, I am not too keen on upgrading my PC for maybe 2 or 3 games per year.