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Forums - The Religion and Philosophy Union Board - Abortion: Should it be leagl or illeagl?

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Abortion: Should it be leagl or illeagl?
Ragashahs
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Feb 12, 2007 3:42 pm PT
Personally i do support abortion because a close friend of mine was raped and her family kept here from aborting the baby. After putting the baby up for adoption she was never the same. although i do support abortion i think there should be really strict law on it.
Strategist1117
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Feb 12, 2007 6:51 pm PT
I believe it should be illegal, because like I said in the Society in Cultures topic, the mother can simply put the baby up for adoption instead of killing it, since I believe that all people should be given the chance to live life. And to Ragashahs:
Ragashahs wrote:
After putting the baby up for adoption she was never the same.
How was she never the same? Did she WANT to raise the baby, and her parents didn't allow it or something?
Atrus
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Posts: 10442
Feb 12, 2007 8:59 pm PT
It should be legal. If one wanted to abort a baby there are actually many ways to do so,  such as ingesting various solvents and hazardous chemicals. However legalized abortions support a much safer medical procedure. Certainly counselling should be given to make sure that a choice is thought out, however the choice itself remains on the girl who has to carry such a child.

Many people object, but these people are hardly the ones going to support the baby and only object as far as their ego and ignorance serves them.

First off, they claim to support life but only so far as their near-sightedness takes them. They'll fight tooth and nail for the rights of the unborn to be born, but nothing for they many already born but die from hunger and disease. Instead, they wish for the unborn to add to this burden. In this twisted thinking, it's okay for children to die so long as they do it outside the womb.

The first priority is to keep children already alive living, then and only then can you suggest we look to protecting the unborn.
 
Ragashahs
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Feb 13, 2007 4:58 am PT
Strategist1117 wrote:
I believe it should be illegal, because like I said in the Society in Cultures topic, the mother can simply put the baby up for adoption instead of killing it, since I believe that all people should be given the chance to live life. And to Ragashahs:
Ragashahs wrote:
After putting the baby up for adoption she was never the same.
How was she never the same? Did she WANT to raise the baby, and her parents didn't allow it or something?
no because she had to go through pregency her boyfriend left here and went through depression(not because he wanted to raise the baby)
Strategist1117
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Feb 13, 2007 6:49 am PT
Ragashahs wrote:
Strategist1117 wrote:
I believe it should be illegal, because like I said in the Society in Cultures topic, the mother can simply put the baby up for adoption instead of killing it, since I believe that all people should be given the chance to live life. And to Ragashahs:
Ragashahs wrote:
After putting the baby up for adoption she was never the same.
How was she never the same? Did she WANT to raise the baby, and her parents didn't allow it or something?
no because she had to go through pregency her boyfriend left here and went through depression(not because he wanted to raise the baby)
I hate unfaithful men who leave their girlfriend/wife if they get raped. The guy just leaves during the time she needs him the most. It makes me sick.
Strategist1117
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Feb 13, 2007 6:58 am PT
Atrus wrote:
It should be legal. If one wanted to abort a baby there are actually many ways to do so,  such as ingesting various solvents and hazardous chemicals. However legalized abortions support a much safer medical procedure. Certainly counselling should be given to make sure that a choice is thought out, however the choice itself remains on the girl who has to carry such a child.

Many people object, but these people are hardly the ones going to support the baby and only object as far as their ego and ignorance serves them.

First off, they claim to support life but only so far as their near-sightedness takes them. They'll fight tooth and nail for the rights of the unborn to be born, but nothing for they many already born but die from hunger and disease. Instead, they wish for the unborn to add to this burden. In this twisted thinking, it's okay for children to die so long as they do it outside the womb.

The first priority is to keep children already alive living, then and only then can you suggest we look to protecting the unborn.
 
Unfortunately, what much of you say is true, I have to admit. Many children do live in poverty, and if abortion is illegalized, it will add to the burden of caring for the ones already there. Unless we have a society that is economically supported and the wealth is generally equally distributed by the government so that there are no poor, I guess abortions are going to have to be allowed.
MarysSoldier
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Feb 13, 2007 1:37 pm PT

Strategist1117 wrote:
Unfortunately, what much of you say is true, I have to admit. Many children do live in poverty, and if abortion is illegalized, it will add to the burden of caring for the ones already there. Unless we have a society that is economically supported and the wealth is generally equally distributed by the government so that there are no poor, I guess abortions are going to have to be allowed.

It all comes down to this: when does human life begin?  All humans have a right to life.  I believe the scientific answer coincides with the theological answer - at conception - when the sperm and egg meet there is new life, and this little baby has the same DNA it will always have and is a separate being from the mother. 

To say that one becomes a human only once he has been physically separated from the mother is an arbitrary assertion in my opinion.

As for Strategist's quote, I tend to think that illegalizing abortion will actually aid the war on poverty.  When our society kills its own preborn children, how is it going to feed and clothe the other children?  When we acknowledge the inherent dignity of every human being it is then that we will have the vision to see the dignity in the poor and will then come to their aid.  Until then, let us do what we can do.

As a side note, there is an interesting effect between government law and perceived morality.  Back in the 50s a priest was visiting a prison and was out in the prison yard where the inmates were lifting weights, playing basketball, etc.  He noticed sitting at a table across the yard were four men playing bridge.  The priest inquired to the warden who they were and the warden responded, "You don't won't to go over there.  Those men are abortionists."

What I'm saying is that despite most people believing abortion to be immoral a generation or two ago, its legalization influences the average person into thinking it is a moral action.  When Roe v. Wade is eventually overturned, the following generations will look back on it with disgust, much the same way we look back on slavery today.  Just my prediction.

For our struggle is not with flesh and blood but with the principalities and powers, the world rulers of this present darkness.
TheBoatman
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Feb 13, 2007 1:46 pm PT
illegal. many girls grow up to be hot!
Strategist1117
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Feb 13, 2007 7:28 pm PT
MarysSoldier wrote:
As for Strategist's quote, I tend to think that illegalizing abortion will actually aid the war on poverty.  When our society kills its own preborn children, how is it going to feed and clothe the other children?  When we acknowledge the inherent dignity of every human being it is then that we will have the vision to see the dignity in the poor and will then come to their aid.  Until then, let us do what we can do.

As a side note, there is an interesting effect between government law and perceived morality.  Back in the 50s a priest was visiting a prison and was out in the prison yard where the inmates were lifting weights, playing basketball, etc.  He noticed sitting at a table across the yard were four men playing bridge.  The priest inquired to the warden who they were and the warden responded, "You don't won't to go over there.  Those men are abortionists."

What I'm saying is that despite most people believing abortion to be immoral a generation or two ago, its legalization influences the average person into thinking it is a moral action.  When Roe v. Wade is eventually overturned, the following generations will look back on it with disgust, much the same way we look back on slavery today.  Just my prediction.

I already look on abortion in disgust like I said in earlier posts, but unfortunately it's not realistic to illegalize abortions and just assume that society is going to recognize that the poor are in need after doing so. Most people in society only care for themselves and the people they personally know, and not the pitiful homeless vagabond living in the streets a few blocks away. So until poverty is eliminated to guarantee that the child will live a good life, abortion is going to have to be an option. A child born into poverty will just hinder this goal to wipe out poverty.
DrummerJon  
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Feb 14, 2007 10:07 am PT
Legal. Its a tough call but at the end of the day society is better off with it legal. Yes preventing life is tragic but forcing people to have unwanted children will result in too many orphans, illegal abortions, etc. Also, not to be heartless, but we can't afford overpopulation getting any worse.


MarysSoldier
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Feb 16, 2007 10:12 am PT

DrummerJon wrote:
Also, not to be heartless, but we can't afford overpopulation getting any worse.

We can't afford underpopulation getting any worse.  Take these combinations -

1. Some European countries have negative population growth

2. The Life Expectancy rate is climbing.

= Global Aging - For economics to work, the largest percentage of society needs to be the working class.  Because of contraception and abortion eliminating hundreds of millions of lives over the last couple generations, there could be some serious problems.  I believe starting this year, Germany, among other countries, is offering $800 as an incentive for each woman who will have a baby. 

http://www.catholic.com/audio/2007/MP3/ca070129b.mp3

For our struggle is not with flesh and blood but with the principalities and powers, the world rulers of this present darkness.
DrummerJon  
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Feb 16, 2007 2:04 pm PT
[QUOTE="MarysSoldier"]

DrummerJon wrote:
Also, not to be heartless, but we can't afford overpopulation getting any worse.

We can't afford underpopulation getting any worse. Take these combinations -

1. Some European countries have negative population growth

2. The Life Expectancy rate is climbing.

= Global Aging - For economics to work, the largest percentage of society needs to be the working class. Because of contraception and abortion eliminating hundreds of millions of lives over the last couple generations, there could be some serious problems. I believe starting this year, Germany, among other countries, is offering $800 as an incentive for each woman who will have a baby.

http://www.catholic.com/audio/2007/MP3/ca070129b.mp3

[/QUOTEEurope is the only place not growing, and in most places the population is booming. The life expectancy getting longer is the biggest cause of overpopulation. Fatality goes down yet people still breed like rabbits.
What we really need is a cultural shift where people may prefer to not have any or just one child, like the Chinese one child policy which is working very well.

The truth is the world in general has too many people. Europe is the exception. Germany and other country's love a big population for the economy and the army and such but as far as the environment (earth, the only home we will ever have) Europe having negative growth may be a pain when the elderly are hard to support, but in the long run it is the key to a sustainable society.


Atrus
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Feb 16, 2007 2:59 pm PT
MarysSoldier wrote:

We can't afford underpopulation getting any worse. Take these combinations -

1. Some European countries have negative population growth

2. The Life Expectancy rate is climbing.

= Global Aging - For economics to work, the largest percentage of society needs to be the working class. Because of contraception and abortion eliminating hundreds of millions of lives over the last couple generations, there could be some serious problems. I believe starting this year, Germany, among other countries, is offering $800 as an incentive for each woman who will have a baby.

http://www.catholic.com/audio/2007/MP3/ca070129b.mp3



I'm sorry but this is nothing more than baseless xenopohobic Christian propaganda. Western population gaps can and will be supplemented by a supply of foreign immigrants to fill the labour base. This is happening here in Canada and we're literally trying to enact plans for more immigration to fill the gap.

There is more than enough people on the Earth with which to fill in the gap left by the aging populace. The only reason some Christians have a problem with this is because of the xenophobic tendency against having these immigrants be mainly non-Christian, specifically Muslim. With the need to fill in these jobs, the percentage of Christians within Western society will decrease while Muslims and to a lesser extant other beliefs like Hinduism will increase.

We have already seen a marked increase the the adherents of Islam in Europe. The Human population is increasing at a rate of 3 per second, this means that overall, there are more young people than old people. It's only in Western societies where the ratio is in the reverse. Saudi Arabia for instance has an extremely large youth population as does many other Islamic countries.
hittin
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Feb 17, 2007 2:38 am PT
It should be legal, why?
1. It's the woman's choice, she chooses whether to give birth to the baby, it's her will, and no one can change that.
2. Maybe while the partners were having sex they accidentally forgot to use a condom, so they don't want a baby.
3. A baby might cause injuries to the woman.
4. Imagine if the woman got pregnant by getting raped? A baby would not only cause injuries, but her father would be a rapist.
MarysSoldier
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Feb 19, 2007 5:28 am PT

hittin wrote:
It should be legal, why? 1. It's the woman's choice, she chooses whether to give birth to the baby, it's her will, and no one can change that. 2. Maybe while the partners were having sex they accidentally forgot to use a condom, so they don't want a baby. 3. A baby might cause injuries to the woman. 4. Imagine if the woman got pregnant by getting raped? A baby would not only cause injuries, but her father would be a rapist.

Murdering my coworkers should be legal, why? 1. It's my choice. I choose whether or not to let them live.  It's my will, and no one can change that.  2. Maybe my boss wants me to work past five o'clock, so I do not want him to exist, therefore I only have to work until five. 3. Coworkers present competition that could keep me from getting a promotion, leaving me in debt and suffering without an HDTV. 4. Imagine if the guy in the cube next to me stole my lunch.  Not only would I be hungry, but I would be sitting next to a thief.

For our struggle is not with flesh and blood but with the principalities and powers, the world rulers of this present darkness.
Ragashahs
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Feb 19, 2007 7:46 am PT
MarysSoldier wrote:

hittin wrote:
It should be legal, why? 1. It's the woman's choice, she chooses whether to give birth to the baby, it's her will, and no one can change that. 2. Maybe while the partners were having sex they accidentally forgot to use a condom, so they don't want a baby. 3. A baby might cause injuries to the woman. 4. Imagine if the woman got pregnant by getting raped? A baby would not only cause injuries, but her father would be a rapist.

Murdering my coworkers should be legal, why? 1. It's my choice. I choose whether or not to let them live. It's my will, and no one can change that. 2. Maybe my boss wants me to work past five o'clock, so I do not want him to exist, therefore I only have to work until five. 3. Coworkers present competition that could keep me from getting a promotion, leaving me in debt and suffering without an HDTV. 4. Imagine if the guy in the cube next to me stole my lunch. Not only would I be hungry, but I would be sitting next to a thief.

your argument is that we should think of a fetus as life? if thats so why do you eat, we kill insects evertime we walk without caring, and even germs. what makes human more deserving of life?
Strategist1117
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Feb 21, 2007 7:33 pm PT
I've moved my response to Smaug's last post in "Society in different cultures" to this thread by request of UltraMagnus.
Smaug84 wrote:
Strategist1117 wrote:
Smaug84 wrote:
Strategist1117 wrote:
Ragashahs wrote:
what i meant was saying a raped & pregnant women, who aborts her baby, has a more chance to have a good life than if she were to go through with the pregnancy and put the baby up for adoption. basically there is more chance for success if she aborts here baby
Oh, is this so? Is there any survey or something to prove this?


Seems like common sense to me. For you see forcing a woman to have something gestating within her because of a rape is only going to do further psychological damage not to mention put the child's life at risk after it is born if the woman feels vindicitive. And trust me in the long line of time in which man has been walking upright their has been women who kill the children resulting from rape. The question is then do you want to child to suffer with have a nervous system when it dies or if you kill it when it is just a collection of cells. Life is brutal quite obviously so I would rather just a collection of cells die then a screaming baby be butchered in revenge for a act it is completely innocent.
Yeah, but Smaug, I never said anything about forcing the mother to care for it if she doesn't want to. If she doesn't, just put it up for adoption, like I said before.


I'm sorry but that seems to me like the baby would be doomed to a orphanage especially if they weren't white. I watched a tv special about how hispanic and black babies are not nearly as desired for adoption and I find that despicable. Of course that will more then likely change in time as Hispanica become the majority in the US. But sadly many are doomed to a life without parents in some of those cases and then their best hope would have to be Boysville. And the only reason why I say that is a better chance for them is because of the amount of donations given to Boysville thus affording them the ability to give as much to the children as possible. Hell, I knew kids growing up who suffered more then those who were in Boysville but that is a story for another time.
While it is true that children have a lower rate of success growing up an orphan, they still have the chance to succeed if they have the initiative to do so.
MarysSoldier
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Feb 22, 2007 9:22 am PT
Ragashahs wrote:
your argument is that we should think of a fetus as life? if thats so why do you eat, we kill insects evertime we walk without caring, and even germs. what makes human more deserving of life?
The Imago Dei.  Human beings have a nature that is elevated above the plants and animals.  I eat animals because they serve mankind as a means toward an end.  I do not eat humans because their nature demands that I not use them as a means toward an end.
For our struggle is not with flesh and blood but with the principalities and powers, the world rulers of this present darkness.
Jemdude
Level 46
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Posts: 6563
Feb 23, 2007 12:57 am PT
Atrus wrote:
MarysSoldier wrote:

We can't afford underpopulation getting any worse. Take these combinations -

1. Some European countries have negative population growth

2. The Life Expectancy rate is climbing.

= Global Aging - For economics to work, the largest percentage of society needs to be the working class. Because of contraception and abortion eliminating hundreds of millions of lives over the last couple generations, there could be some serious problems. I believe starting this year, Germany, among other countries, is offering $800 as an incentive for each woman who will have a baby.

http://www.catholic.com/audio/2007/MP3/ca070129b.mp3



I'm sorry but this is nothing more than baseless xenopohobic Christian propaganda. Western population gaps can and will be supplemented by a supply of foreign immigrants to fill the labour base. This is happening here in Canada and we're literally trying to enact plans for more immigration to fill the gap.

There is more than enough people on the Earth with which to fill in the gap left by the aging populace. The only reason some Christians have a problem with this is because of the xenophobic tendency against having these immigrants be mainly non-Christian, specifically Muslim. With the need to fill in these jobs, the percentage of Christians within Western society will decrease while Muslims and to a lesser extant other beliefs like Hinduism will increase.

We have already seen a marked increase the the adherents of Islam in Europe. The Human population is increasing at a rate of 3 per second, this means that overall, there are more young people than old people. It's only in Western societies where the ratio is in the reverse. Saudi Arabia for instance has an extremely large youth population as does many other Islamic countries.


Canada does have a problem with underpopulation and abortion is the cause of it. While accepting immigrants helps, it's not a good thing to depend on for the long run. You end up with a lot of people with different cultural values as you mentioned. But as time goes on, the number of immigrants are beginning to decrease. Less and less immigrants want to immigrate to a country where their hard earned credentials and experience are not recognized. This is an interesting subject in and of itself. The main reason abortion shouldn't be supported is simply because it's murder of an innocent child.

Pro-abortion people talk about poverty, etc., but there are pro-life organizations that aid both the mother and the child and there are many people wanting to adopt. What are pro-abortion organizations contributing towards women in poverty? None that I'm aware of.

Ragashahs
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Feb 23, 2007 5:05 am PT
MarysSoldier wrote:
Ragashahs wrote:
your argument is that we should think of a fetus as life? if thats so why do you eat, we kill insects evertime we walk without caring, and even germs. what makes human more deserving of life?
The Imago Dei. Human beings have a nature that is elevated above the plants and animals. I eat animals because they serve mankind as a means toward an end. I do not eat humans because their nature demands that I not use them as a means toward an end.
still why should you deserve life and others things loss life? what do humans do thats good for nature? we are destroing the planet and we don't even care for human life considering there are so many murders each day
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Forums - The Religion and Philosophy Union Board - Abortion: Should it be leagl or illeagl?