THE INDOCTRINATION THEORY (Spoilers)

#1 Posted by giantk99 (3 posts) -
#2 Posted by CylonRaider01 (217 posts) -

You belive it? i wrote in another topic why theis is a failed theory (from Bioware side).These are just speculations and i can easily give you the motives why this isnt either tru or false,but atm i am too lazy to rewrote, it is just broken,but think that the TIM was on the Citadel acording to the prothean VI and EDI so it isnt true what he said.Perhaps it will be fixed with the "unknow dlc extend" or maybe it will be just a fail dlc,wich i think it will be, and will not have any sense.So again what is your opinion on the "broken indoctrinated theory"?

#3 Posted by giantk99 (3 posts) -

So how come at the end if you choose to destroy the reapers sheapard is still outside and not in space?

#4 Posted by CylonRaider01 (217 posts) -

Again this is a broken theory.Beeing outside doesnt make any sense why?That means you survive but the destroy was just a dream cuz how you got back if you "destroyed" the Citadel and the Reapers? (this may include the magical spoof tele theory)The vid says that the Crucible is destroyed then the Reapers won and the vids where useless.So again:On thessia the Prothean VI detecs no indoctrination on you but imediatly shuts down when Indoctrinated KL apears.You are half synthetic according to ME2 so you have same upgrades like TIM,geth to resist the Indoctrination,note TIM was half husk according to the comics so he was able to resist until he accelerats further the husk state and the reapers are able to control him.That part with the shooting yourself:the wound it is on the opposite side of wich you shoot Anderson so you coudnt shooted yourself.Regarding the dreams they could also be Cerberus flaws to make you see TIM side,why i am saying that? if you where rebuilded by cerberus they have no control on you? that doesnt sounds like TIM,easy to speculate cuz it isnt finished proprely..Also having your squad tele on Normandy has no sense either so these are just speculations on a broken game maded by some money hungry ppl wich ripped actual content to make it DLC,like the prothean dlc makes no sense without him.

#5 Posted by giantk99 (3 posts) -

Actually Shepard is hurt on the same side where he shot Anderson because Anderson holds his left side after shot and so does Shepard when sitting down. And what about the kid that no one can see but Shepard. Also Saren wanted to Combine Organics and synthetics and the illusive man wanted to control the Reapers both are options at the end and both of them were indoctrinated and both options lead to Shepard dying. But you are right about the Prothean VI. The only objective from ME1 to ME3 was to destroy the reapers and is the only path that leaves Shepard alive at the end. But it is just a theory but one that makes alot of sense.

#6 Posted by CylonRaider01 (217 posts) -

Thats because it is a broken game and ppl try to find an answer to broken links.And that kid idk maybe Anderson was more preocupied to save his and you life or maybe thought Shep was wasting time or idk nothing sugest it that it was a ghost or not,and for the noise,some ppl said that the Reapers where trying to get you but it maybe was a general "panic sound" since breaking morale and install fear was their greatest weapon against organics.Also at the end that "space cheesy puff" could be an image wich was familiar to Shep or a hologram badly design,or could be The Creator of the reapers wich admited that he was defeated again no clearly evidence or an epic boss fight due to stupid,bad,poorly (you choose) design for "An epic artistic view " of the competent peo...errr Casey Hudson. Pitty that the evidence is half against this theory half sustain it.And yea my bad with the wound side i finished the game for quite some time and i didnt payed attention at the video on that scene.Perhaps there will be an explanation in the dlc or not.But for the moment from my point of view i stick to the few ummm okay only good thing at the end: u arent indoctrinated.

#7 Posted by giantk99 (3 posts) -
#8 Posted by redman321 (1 posts) -
I'm not sure if they intended it, but they'd be fools not to capitalize on it, since I think all the videos of the theory make a lot of sense.
#10 Posted by CylonRaider01 (217 posts) -

They would be fools if they do it..It will be like" Hey look FREE ideas lets steal this idea and mark it an epic artistic view".I want to see that epic artistic view of them and show something that makes sense.Shep dying maded sense,he has too it is about sacrifices and the ultimate sacrifice and i am agree with that.And maybe some more detail regarding what hapen with your decisions like:making peace with quarians and geth,curing genophage,making peace with krogans and turians,salarian dead or not things like that not they lived happily forever..But to copy the ideea of the Indoctrination theory from ppl who tried to make sense from this broken game it is like stealing yor minor artistic view (we arent artist they are the only epic ones,from their point of view)Also would be nice not to kill the geth with the destroy ending cuz i liked them they werent bad robots.

#12 Posted by idunnodude (2274 posts) -

wait when is this DLC coming out? it said this summer. but i remember updating me3 recently for a patch and a DLC. i dont know what DLC i got though? i didnt see anything new on my game, does it only come when u start a new game?

#13 Posted by CylonRaider01 (217 posts) -

Those 2 free DLC where Resurgence and Rebelion each of them multiplayer dlc wich add for online mode: 4 new weaps and 2 maps and new chars.U can acces it only online.

#14 Posted by idunnodude (2274 posts) -

oh ok. too bad my online sucks, ive only been able to play a couple of times. it was fun as hell though when i did. i gotta say im pleased that they kept it co-op and didnt get too much into it with multiplayer or pvp or none of that. i just beat the game recently and im just in a WTF state right now. i got a million questions and im just pissed to why they had to trick us at the end. after uniting all the races i felt pretty damn good and then this crap happens.

#15 Posted by jmrwacko (6469 posts) -

Actually Shepard is hurt on the same side where he shot Anderson because Anderson holds his left side after shot and so does Shepard when sitting down. And what about the kid that no one can see but Shepard. Also Saren wanted to Combine Organics and synthetics and the illusive man wanted to control the Reapers both are options at the end and both of them were indoctrinated and both options lead to Shepard dying. But you are right about the Prothean VI. The only objective from ME1 to ME3 was to destroy the reapers and is the only path that leaves Shepard alive at the end. But it is just a theory but one that makes alot of sense.

giantk99
Every ending technically destroys the reapers, or at least stops them. They are controlled in the control ending and disabled in the synthesis ending.
#16 Posted by l4dgamerfan (4175 posts) -

You belive it? i wrote in another topic why theis is a failed theory (from Bioware side).These are just speculations and i can easily give you the motives why this isnt either tru or false,but atm i am too lazy to rewrote, it is just broken,but think that the TIM was on the Citadel acording to the prothean VI and EDI so it isnt true what he said.Perhaps it will be fixed with the "unknow dlc extend" or maybe it will be just a fail dlc,wich i think it will be, and will not have any sense.So again what is your opinion on the "broken indoctrinated theory"?

CylonRaider01

How about you actually post your counter to this theory instead of just saying you have one.

#17 Posted by CylonRaider01 (217 posts) -

Are you seriouse?Okay then scroll up..look down 3 posts then read the forth one,more specific the line that starts "So again: On thessia..." then there ya go my theory.Or you need the link to my original post in this forum?

#21 Posted by DemonFox75 (407 posts) -

The "Indoctrination Theory" does make sense if you followed the story and paid attention to what happens. Bioware has had a pretty soild history on the story line and then all of a sudden the end turns to junk? No, I think it was ment to be like that to maybe add more to the game later or another game or just leave it to the user. This kind of like how the Saponaro's ended, if you watched the show and payed attention you had clues (like in mass effect) of what happens and pretty much leaves it to each person to to come up with their own thoughts of the ending...personly I think is lame and dont think is the case. Bioware has stressed to save your data...why? well come on, think about it, because the story is not done. No they are not stealing ideas from the users, the users (ones who paid attention) figured out the story. Is this true? NO that is why its called a "THEORY" and a good one. I did find this story and thought it was good to share. http://www.gamefront.com/mass-effect-3-ending-analyzing-the-indoctrination-theory/

only time will tell of what the truth is.

#22 Posted by Vokail (1831 posts) -

SPOILERS

the only part that I disagree on with what most think with the indoctrination theory is that it is all a dream. I think he's hallucinating while in the citidel, but it is really happening because it creates a bigger mess as far as the story goes if you're actually on the ground the whole time having this dream.

I also wonder if the reason they bring you to the choices at the end on the white elevator is because they have given up trying to control you and see their solution as not working, so at that point you really have the universe's fate in your hands.

ie the ending where you say I'm not doing any of these choices and then you hear harbinger say "so be it" and the cycle starts all over again.

#23 Posted by rick0111 (1 posts) -

I think Bioware have redeemed themselves somewhat by providing a better insight to the ending with the New EC.

For me the choices at the end were reasonable ones to conclude an epic story that could have had so many possibe endings (including the Indoctrination theory) and is consistent with the ME theme of making hard choices. By allowing the gamer sit back and make a their own minds up on what they would do in different situations where you had to make a choice.

The choices in the series tries to touch on our human emotion and sometimes our moral and political standpoint, such as choosing whether to destroy the geth or to seduce a same sex individual or to choose fate of the krogan during the genophage saga.We all were asked to make personal choices which was ultimately the essence of the mass effect trilogy.

"show of hands- how many of you chose to kill off Kaiden or Ashley in game 1 and not give it a second thought?"

From the onset we've been tested by Bioware to choose each time which is ultimately what I believe the ME series was all about, A fun and entertaining game of choices with a great story but the latter being secondary priority (Bioware would disagree ofc).

Your moral choices were political (think world war 2), religous beliefs and race (my way of life or yours) and lastly the live and let live concept (LBGT rights comes to mind).

All three were featured prominently throughout the series.

Is it ok or dangerous to be this all powerful controlling being "Godlike"? - dont kill Shepard, choose the control option

Does the preservation of Organics Life ultimately is the priority for you? - choose the destroy option

Do you consider that human beings and constructs/machines are equally evolving essences in the world? - choose the merge option

These 3 endings were given to you from amongst a miriad of possible endings and from those 3 youre ultimately asked to question your own morality again, your own view of the world you live in or wish to be living in.

Where I think bioware did get it wrong is by trying to narrow down your choices has created the sense of dilemna that we all would have when choosing such politically charged questions, because we all can refer situations where under different circumstances we would have chosen another 1 of the 3, In reality things arnt always so black or white.

These are major political dilemna for many people and the world alike and I feel Bioware may have gone a bit too far down this route when ultimately ME is a game and games are there to take you away from these life issues for a hour or two.

I chose the destroy ending because of my personal fear that allowing an organically made construct that can process a billion times faster than me is ultimately putting myself at a disadvantage...sorry legion. This decision however should not be taken out of context which was only based on 3 limitied choices and within the context of the story. I had to make a hard choice and the 1 which suited my ending to the game just like when I chose Ashley over Kaiden

All in all I think the ME series is still one of the best ive ever played although i might think twice about playing another if every decision I make leave me consciously preturbed.

 

 

#24 Posted by luismuziotti (56 posts) -

The indoctrination theory used to make sense before the Extended Cut, now it doesn't. Why? Because if everything that's happening is inside Shepard's mind there should not be any outcome after this, I mean, we had to conclude that the cycle repeated itself no matter what, how could you control or destroy the reapers with your mind?, is Shepard a God or something?. If we chose to destroy then the indoctrination failed and if we chose to control the indoctrination succeded, but that's it, Shepard is lying almost dead at the exact same place where he took the hit from Harbinger. At the end the only thing that matters is weather he's dead or not.

Now with this Extended Cut, Bioware explain what happened to the Galaxy... After what?, No one destroyed the reapers, no one controled them, so what is this... From my POV what was a brilliant ending ended up being a complete mess.

#25 Posted by Skarwolf (1805 posts) -

Synthesis & Control Endings don't make any sense at all.  Especially since you're forced to disagree with the Illusive man.  Ok he's wrong but then you go and do the very thing he wanted to do.  

That makes about as much sense as synthetics killing all organics to prevent other synthetics from killing organics.

#26 Posted by Abberon (224 posts) -

Skarwolf you've basically pinned down how stupidly written the finale was. The synthetics are killing organics in order to prevent organics creating synthetics that will eventually destroy organics? Even Shepard saw how much of an insane contradiction this was, and he says so, but that's as far as the writers go with it. I'm not sure they realized how dumb it sounded. That stupid kid on the Citadel at the ending was just moronic too. Sovereign says that the Reapers are each a nation of their own, but then it turns out the Catalyst or whoever that kid was, ACTUALLY controls the Reapers and they're more of a Hive collective or something? WTF?

They took a terrifying, malevolent alien force from ME1 and then absolutely neutered it at the end of ME3 by making them mindless tools performing their programmed task. What a botch.

#27 Posted by Skarwolf (1805 posts) -

I was hoping they go into Dark Space and investigate Reaper origins.

I mean all 3 games its beaten into our heads that the Reapers are unstoppable and theres no way to fight them with conventional weaponry.  The plan ?  Ally everyone and make a big armada to try and fight them.  Didn't work for the Proteans, or every other species before them.  But hey we got this new ultra Crucible 6000 !!!!!  How do you turn it on ?  Dunno.  Whats it do ?  Uh don't know.  But hey we think it'll work !  

They should've thrown in a curveball where the Reapers actually leaked the crucible that when turned on it shut off all the alliance ships allowing the reapers to waltz in and harvest them all.

There was so much more they could've did with this story.

#28 Posted by Abberon (224 posts) -
Honestly I even think it would have been better if the united galaxy actually just DID beat the Reapers through massed force of arms. The Reapers' usual play, as we know, was to take the Citadel day 1, shut down the mass relays to organics, and then take them down piecemeal. The Crucible could have just been a huge and super powerful capital ship and the fact that Shepard stopped Sovereign in #1 is what really tipped the balance to the Galaxy's favor. They could have thrown us a curveball or something, but at least this way it would have felt like games 1-2 led up to something, rather than everything boiling down to whether or not you wanted to shoot a red, blue or green laser.
#29 Posted by Skarwolf (1805 posts) -

Yeah I thought the whole armada looked cool arriving near earth however I would've liked to see them take out at least some reapers.  They didn't even show that.  It kinda looks like ones blowing up but then it takes out another alliance dreadnought in one shot and appears to be ok just lots of explosions.

#30 Posted by NBAmaster33 (938 posts) -

Has anyone seen this video?

It blew my mind!

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ythY_GkEBck

giantk99

The Indoctrination Theory doesn't function as an ending and was created by the fans simply to cover up how appalling the actual ending was.

#31 Posted by Torino818 (149 posts) -

The Extended Cut has debunked the Indoctrination Theory.  Thank you BioWare for a great game, please just let the theory die now.

#32 Posted by Biggs613 (2 posts) -

While the indoctrination theory has merits, one thing clearly stands out for me. At the end of the game when Shepard is discussing the control aspect, he says "So The Illusive Man was right after all." To which the child thing says "Yes, but he could never have taken control because we already controlled him." To me, this implies that TIM was indoctrinated and Shepard was not.

#33 Posted by LtlDuDe346 (1354 posts) -

While the indoctrination theory has merits, one thing clearly stands out for me. At the end of the game when Shepard is discussing the control aspect, he says "So The Illusive Man was right after all." To which the child thing says "Yes, but he could never have taken control because we already controlled him." To me, this implies that TIM was indoctrinated and Shepard was not.

Biggs613

this is super late lol, but Shepard WAS indoctrinated, not fully, but he was. The harbinger purposely implied to Shepard that the illusive man was indoctrinated and that he (Shepard) was not.  By merely implying that and not directly stating to Shepard that he himself is not indoctrinated, it gave Shepard a FALSE sense of self thought and control, but by believing that implication Shepard proved that he didn't have as much control as he thought.

The only ending that keeps shepard alive is the RED RENEGADE option.  The BLUE PARAGON option shows Shepard getting devoured in a non-peaceful way because he has became fully indoctrinated. The proof to that is in the exact words from your post... "Yes, but he could never have taken control because we already controlled him."  That was true for the illusive man and it was true for Shepard as well.

This is and will forever be the greatest ending ever in media. Why?  Because I played over 100 hours in my 3 save files trying to defeat the reapers and save the galaxy and what did I do in the end? I FAILED, I BECAME INDOCTRINATED and didn't even know it... and that's precisely it, you wouldn't know you were indoctrinated if you were indoctrinated lol.  I played paragon for over 100 hours and the BLUE PARAGON option at the end lit up like a beacon, I thought "it's over, i won, i did it!".  But what I really did was get defeated by the Reapers.  That is a beautiful ending, just wow :)