if Peace is unobtainable....
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Feb 1, 2013 10:13 am GMT
ToolOwnsYou posted...We're also punishing the Quarians for the decisions that were made hundreds of years ago. Some acknowledge that it was wrong (Zaal'Koris), some defend the decision (Daro'Xen), but it's all opinion either way.
Humanity bullied the Batarians into some drastic measures too, but I don't see many Balak fans around.
Shepard didn't personally colonize all the free worlds he could find in Batarian space. Garrus didn't give the order to use the genophage. I didn't personally own a slave 150 years before I was born. I think Shepard has a line somewhere on Rannoch that the past doesn't have to define us anymore.
Regardless of what happened in the past, the decision affects the Quarians of today, not their ancestors.
This, so much this^
It's like people treating Germans badly because of what Hitler did over 70 years ago.
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Feb 1, 2013 10:22 am GMT
nazacuckoo posted...ToolOwnsYou posted...
We're also punishing the Quarians for the decisions that were made hundreds of years ago. Some acknowledge that it was wrong (Zaal'Koris), some defend the decision (Daro'Xen), but it's all opinion either way.
Humanity bullied the Batarians into some drastic measures too, but I don't see many Balak fans around.
Shepard didn't personally colonize all the free worlds he could find in Batarian space. Garrus didn't give the order to use the genophage. I didn't personally own a slave 150 years before I was born. I think Shepard has a line somewhere on Rannoch that the past doesn't have to define us anymore.
Regardless of what happened in the past, the decision affects the Quarians of today, not their ancestors.
This, so much this^
It's like people treating Germans badly because of what Hitler did over 70 years ago.
No it's not, because the germans aren't still doing what they were doing 70 years ago, unlike the quarians who are throwing their own civilians in the front line to attack the geth, AGAIN.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEf5VFKplzw Feb 1, 2013 10:32 am GMT
bessy67 posted...Urdnot_Runt posted...
Hell, the quarians were even killing their own people who sympathized with the geth. It's no wonder the quarians had so many casualties.
And like I said, the people comparing the geth to cars, lawnmowers, calling them 'toasters" etc, are simply catering to their own headcanon that goes against the narrative that goes to great lengths to establish that the quarians created *beings* whether they realized it or not at the time.
It does not go against the narrative to point out that geth are machines created to make work easier for the quarians, much like lawnmowers or cars. And if lawnmowers or cars suddenly started becoming sentient you can be sure that humans would eradicate them.
sure, we would. Why not? And if they won and drove us away from earth they would be in their right to do so as sentient beings with a will to avoid genocide of their kind. And if there were aliens or something watching us they would say we brought it on our selves for assuming the responsibility of God/Creator/etc, underestimating our creation and then trying to commit genocide only to have it backfire.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEf5VFKplzw Feb 1, 2013 10:27 am GMT
Urdnot_Runt posted...bessy67 posted...
Urdnot_Runt posted...
Hell, the quarians were even killing their own people who sympathized with the geth. It's no wonder the quarians had so many casualties.
And like I said, the people comparing the geth to cars, lawnmowers, calling them 'toasters" etc, are simply catering to their own headcanon that goes against the narrative that goes to great lengths to establish that the quarians created *beings* whether they realized it or not at the time.
It does not go against the narrative to point out that geth are machines created to make work easier for the quarians, much like lawnmowers or cars. And if lawnmowers or cars suddenly started becoming sentient you can be sure that humans would eradicate them.
sure, we would. Why not? And if they won and drove us away from earth they would be in their right to do so as sentient beings with a will to avoid genocide of their kind.
Again though, you call it genocide, I call it a product recall.
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Feb 1, 2013 10:41 am GMT
That one random dude in Dragon Age has a quote that I feel is appropriate here:
'Only a fool fights for his farmland while his country burns down around him.' Or something to that effect.
I'm a lot more sympathetic towards the Geth, though. If the Quarians choose this critical moment in time to go to war with the Geth, ignoring the real threat, then they deserve to die.
The Geth however, forced to defend themselves from their creators as well as the Reapers would die a pointless, cruel death for no other reason then simply existing and being the way they are. No species deserves that.
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Feb 1, 2013 10:52 am GMT
Quarians.
Geth aren't people. A self-aware line of code is still just a line of code. They're a tool; a weapon. Nothing more.
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Feb 1, 2013 10:58 am GMT
bessy67 posted...Urdnot_Runt posted...
bessy67 posted...
Urdnot_Runt posted...
Hell, the quarians were even killing their own people who sympathized with the geth. It's no wonder the quarians had so many casualties.
And like I said, the people comparing the geth to cars, lawnmowers, calling them 'toasters" etc, are simply catering to their own headcanon that goes against the narrative that goes to great lengths to establish that the quarians created *beings* whether they realized it or not at the time.
It does not go against the narrative to point out that geth are machines created to make work easier for the quarians, much like lawnmowers or cars. And if lawnmowers or cars suddenly started becoming sentient you can be sure that humans would eradicate them.
sure, we would. Why not? And if they won and drove us away from earth they would be in their right to do so as sentient beings with a will to avoid genocide of their kind.
Again though, you call it genocide, I call it a product recall.
Well that's the thing, isn't it? I didn't really think the quarians were at fault for trying to shut the machines off but it must come down to whether you believe the geth are more than "just machines" or not, and whether it should change anything if they ARE more than just machines. I would say it DOES matter and I would also say the narrative pretty much shoves it in our face that the geth are more than toasters, cars, etc.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEf5VFKplzw Feb 1, 2013 11:08 am GMT
You bring up excellent points, UR.
I suppose the issue turns into - are the Geth victims, or villains? They were driven to extreme measures by the Quarian attacks, but they also willingly chose to serve and be enslaved by the species that threatens to exterminate the entire galaxy. And the Geth knew that this was the Reaper goal, as Legion had shared that with them.
Geth say "survival," Quarians say "you're siding with evil and dooming the galaxy." Potato potahto?
One thing I always wondered is, why don't the Geth just leave Rannoch? Give it back? They don't have emotional or biological attachment - the Quarians clearly do.
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Feb 1, 2013 11:09 am GMT
Zukkus posted...Quarians.
They're a tool; a weapon. Nothing more.
Do you really think it's that simple? I mean, the geth are part organic and it's even mentioned in the series that the geth have neural networks. They teeter on the edge of sentience and while in the timeframe of ME1 they may not be people(yet) but they are more than just machines. The narrative goes to great lengths to establish that the geth (and edi) are more than the some of their parts, much like you could say we are more than the sum of electrical impulses and chemical reactions.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEf5VFKplzw Feb 1, 2013 11:12 am GMT
Xylarxcode posted...That one random dude in Dragon Age has a quote that I feel is appropriate here:
'Only a fool fights for his farmland while his country burns down around him.' Or something to that effect.
I'm a lot more sympathetic towards the Geth, though. If the Quarians choose this critical moment in time to go to war with the Geth, ignoring the real threat, then they deserve to die.
The Geth however, forced to defend themselves from their creators as well as the Reapers would die a pointless, cruel death for no other reason then simply existing and being the way they are. No species deserves that.
That's the thing though, what else could they do? If they didn't go to war with the Geth, then the Reapers would have obliterated them.
They had much better odds fighting the Geth then Reapers. Seeing as how the Geth were under Reaper control, the Reapers themselves would not get involved in an attack against the quariens.
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Feb 1, 2013 11:14 am GMT
ToolOwnsYou posted...You bring up excellent points, UR.
I suppose the issue turns into - are the Geth victims, or villains? They were driven to extreme measures by the Quarian attacks, but they also willingly chose to serve and be enslaved by the species that threatens to exterminate the entire galaxy. And the Geth knew that this was the Reaper goal, as Legion had shared that with them.
Geth say "survival," Quarians say "you're siding with evil and dooming the galaxy." Potato potahto?
One thing I always wondered is, why don't the Geth just leave Rannoch? Give it back? They don't have emotional or biological attachment - the Quarians clearly do.
They don't leave Rannoch because they're looking after the planet, also they're using the star of Rannoch to build their Dyson sphere so that's why they stay.
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Feb 1, 2013 11:17 am GMT
I chose Geth, because if you don't, you're basically killing off a form of life. Quarians will lose all their ships but they won't go extinct or anything.
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Feb 1, 2013 11:22 am GMT
GoldenSWarriors posted...I chose Geth, because if you don't, you're basically killing off a form of life. Quarians will lose all their ships but they won't go extinct or anything.
Uh, yes actually they will go extinct. Without their ships they literally have nothing.
So you're saying it is better to save something that is technically alive, as oppose to people that physically are?
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Feb 1, 2013 11:29 am GMT
this is definitely a hard choice, but I would have to go with the quarians. Sure, they are at fault for attempting to kill the Geth when they began to question their creators and attain individuality, but the geth can eventually be recreated by the quarians, not the other way around.
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Feb 1, 2013 11:43 am GMT
Urdnot_Runt posted...Zukkus posted...
Quarians.
They're a tool; a weapon. Nothing more.
Do you really think it's that simple? I mean, the geth are part organic and it's even mentioned in the series that the geth have neural networks. They teeter on the edge of sentience and while in the timeframe of ME1 they may not be people(yet) but they are more than just machines. The narrative goes to great lengths to establish that the geth (and edi) are more than the some of their parts, much like you could say we are more than the sum of electrical impulses and chemical reactions.
That's just my personal view. I don't think a theoretical self-aware machine is on the same level as a sentient being. Nor will it ever be. I don't care if robots have religions and governments, they're not people and never will be. Like I said, a self-aware line of code is still just a line of code. I don't view EDI as a real person, either. The whole Joker-EDI thing is an extremely unhealthy relationship.
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Feb 1, 2013 11:46 am GMT
The issue with comparing the Geth to cars/lawnmowers/etc is that they weren't created for that purpose. They were created as an entity with the capability to receive orders and perform labor.
If I built an android with the capability to become an individual and then it started to develop individuality I shouldn't really be that surprised.
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Feb 1, 2013 11:58 am GMT
Geth, I hate the Quarians. Throughout the whole series, I never used Tali except when forced to.
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Feb 1, 2013 12:13 pm GMT
For me, the quarians. My thoughts certainly don't work for everyone, but if I were somehow given that choice in real life, I would side against the machines every time.
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Feb 1, 2013 12:14 pm GMT
Doe any one else find it odd, that despite the series' strong anit-prejudice, that many people base their arguments on what ammounts to irrational prejudice?
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