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How many polygons will be used in Next Gen character models?

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  • Level 24
    I Feel Asleep!!
    Posts: 3396
    Feb 27, 2013 4:34 pm GMT

    It depends on too many factors really.  Type of game, type of camera, visual style, hero character, secondary character, random npc, clothing/armor, etc. etc...

    I find that anything past 100k really starts diminishing unless you're going for extreme close ups.  At a distant camera like in most action games where you view the full figure of your character anything over 50k is overkill as normal maps can carry the detail very well in that range.

    I doubt character geometry will see a huge boost tbh.  For close up lod's, yes they'll be heavy compared to what we have now, but in most situations they'll only see minor increases.

    Texture res will likely double or quadruple though and when it comes to game models that is where all your details really come from.

    ---

    It depends on too many factors really.  Type of game, type of camera, visual style, hero character, secondary character, random npc, clothing/armor, etc. etc...

    I find that anything past 100k really starts diminishing unless you're going for extreme close ups.  At a distant camera like in most action games where you view the full figure of your character anything over 50k is overkill as normal maps can carry the detail very well in that range.

    I doubt character geometry will see a huge boost tbh.  For close up lod's, yes they'll be heavy compared to what we have now, but in most situations they'll only see minor increases.

    Texture res will likely double or quadruple though and when it comes to game models that is where all your details really come from.

  • Level 40
    Abobo
    Posts: 19252
    User is Online
    Feb 27, 2013 4:34 pm GMT

    And the award for most pointless topic of the year goes to...this one!

    And the award for most pointless topic of the year goes to...this one!

  • Level 52
    Spoony Bard
    Posts: 17090
    User is Online
    Feb 27, 2013 4:37 pm GMT
    finalstar2007 wrote:

    clyde46 wrote:
    finalstar2007 wrote:

    da fuq is a polygon?

    And you call yourself a Cow.

    Im a gamer, i just game i dont care for the nerdy stuff

    seriously sonys presentation when they talked about the specs i was like da fuq all this means da whole time .. till they showed UI and the games then im like thats how it should be


    A polygon is a shape, video games are usually built out of triangles, the TC was wondering how many triangles will be used to create the meshes for next generation character models.
    [QUOTE="finalstar2007"]

    [QUOTE="clyde46"][QUOTE="finalstar2007"]

    da fuq is a polygon?

    [/QUOTE] And you call yourself a Cow.[/QUOTE]

    Im a gamer, i just game i dont care for the nerdy stuff :P

    seriously sonys presentation when they talked about the specs i was like da fuq all this means da whole time :P.. till they showed UI and the games then im like thats how it should be :P

    [/QUOTE] A polygon is a shape, video games are usually built out of triangles, the TC was wondering how many triangles will be used to create the meshes for next generation character models.
  • Level 19
    Gitaroo Man
    Posts: 4512
    User is Online
    Feb 27, 2013 4:40 pm GMT
    15strong wrote:

    naz99 wrote:

    By comparison Star citizens player models will have around 100,000 polygons

    Excessive much. A normal or bump map would do the trick.


    Bump Map is sooooo last gen, And it looks ridiculous from a different angle, A polygon model would look the same from every angle, Also you should have said Normal Map instead of Bump Map.
    ------------------------------------
    [QUOTE="15strong"]

    [QUOTE="naz99"]

    By comparison Star citizens player models will have around 100,000 polygons

    [/QUOTE]

    Excessive much. A normal or bump map would do the trick.

    [/QUOTE] Bump Map is sooooo last gen, And it looks ridiculous from a different angle, A polygon model would look the same from every angle, Also you should have said Normal Map instead of Bump Map.
  • Level 49
    Kidd Thunder !!
    Posts: 9952
    User is Online
    Feb 27, 2013 4:50 pm GMT

    A lot.

    A lot.

  • Level 24
    I Feel Asleep!!
    Posts: 3396
    Feb 27, 2013 4:53 pm GMT

    faizan_faizan wrote:
    15strong wrote:

    naz99 wrote:

    By comparison Star citizens player models will have around 100,000 polygons

    Excessive much. A normal or bump map would do the trick.

    Bump Map is sooooo last gen, And it looks ridiculous from a different angle, A polygon model would look the same from every angle, Also you should have said Normal Map instead of Bump Map.

    You're right, normals do carry most of the workload, but bump maps are still used in tandem with Normal maps.  Even in film when all your high res organic models are using displacements we still use normal maps and grey scale bump maps to achieve the final effect (along with displacements of course).

    And honestly 100k still isnt very high.  Normal maps are still absolutely necessary even at that poly count.  In order to get details like pores, fine wrinkes and cross hatching in skin using pure geometry you would have to be working with at least 3 million polygons.

    ---

    [QUOTE="faizan_faizan"][QUOTE="15strong"]

    [QUOTE="naz99"]

    By comparison Star citizens player models will have around 100,000 polygons

    [/QUOTE]

    Excessive much. A normal or bump map would do the trick.

    [/QUOTE] Bump Map is sooooo last gen, And it looks ridiculous from a different angle, A polygon model would look the same from every angle, Also you should have said Normal Map instead of Bump Map.[/QUOTE]

    You're right, normals do carry most of the workload, but bump maps are still used in tandem with Normal maps.  Even in film when all your high res organic models are using displacements we still use normal maps and grey scale bump maps to achieve the final effect (along with displacements of course).

    And honestly 100k still isnt very high.  Normal maps are still absolutely necessary even at that poly count.  In order to get details like pores, fine wrinkes and cross hatching in skin using pure geometry you would have to be working with at least 3 million polygons.

  • Level 56
    Mr. X
    Posts: 14491
    User is Online
    Feb 27, 2013 4:57 pm GMT
    It won't matter too much. We're never going to see the progress of going from PS1 to PS2 polygons. 100,000 polygons will not look twice as good as 50,000 polygons.
    1
    It won't matter too much. We're never going to see the progress of going from PS1 to PS2 polygons. 100,000 polygons will not look twice as good as 50,000 polygons.
  • Level 24
    I Feel Asleep!!
    Posts: 3396
    Feb 27, 2013 5:01 pm GMT

    tagyhag wrote:
    It won't matter too much. We're never going to see the progress of going from PS1 to PS2 polygons. 100,000 polygons will not look twice as good as 50,000 polygons.

    Yeah the biggest jumps have been made.  In-game geometry does have room for improvement, but the returns are obviously diminished.  Animation, lighting and shaders are the areas that truly have room to impress going forward.

    ---

    [QUOTE="tagyhag"]It won't matter too much. We're never going to see the progress of going from PS1 to PS2 polygons. 100,000 polygons will not look twice as good as 50,000 polygons.[/QUOTE]

    Yeah the biggest jumps have been made.  In-game geometry does have room for improvement, but the returns are obviously diminished.  Animation, lighting and shaders are the areas that truly have room to impress going forward.

  • Level 32
    Snake Eater
    Posts: 18878
    User is Online
    Feb 27, 2013 5:02 pm GMT

    40k

    xbox one
    one game per console
    one purpose tv
    one buyer your xbox fanboy
    price
    arm
    leg
    first born

    40k

  • Level 40
    Abobo
    Posts: 6469
    User is Online
    Feb 27, 2013 5:02 pm GMT

    I'd say at least 10 bazillion.

    I'd say at least 10 bazillion.

  • Level 23
    Super Bagman
    Posts: 1366
    Feb 27, 2013 5:08 pm GMT

    Not too much more than the amount in current gen models.

    Any more is a complete waste, we actually have pretty good looking models on some PS3 and 360 games.

    Not too much more than the amount in current gen models.

    Any more is a complete waste, we actually have pretty good looking models on some PS3 and 360 games.

  • Level 44
    Violence Fight
    Posts: 32317
    User is Online
    Feb 27, 2013 5:13 pm GMT
    a million.
    Check out SW's Pod Cast! PM me if you want to join a future podcast!
    a million.
  • Level 19
    Gitaroo Man
    Posts: 4512
    User is Online
    Feb 27, 2013 5:14 pm GMT
    Near 50k.
    ------------------------------------
    Near 50k.
  • Level 23
    Super Bagman
    Posts: 1366
    Feb 27, 2013 5:18 pm GMT

    I think Kratos in GOW3 is around 20k poly's, so i'd say around 50k poly's is the most any model should ever be. 

    Not too long ago I was reading a blog on a guy that's just starting in modeling and he made a 50k model, it looked kind of like the girl in Heavenly sword, anyways this 50k model from this beginner looked really really good.

    I think Kratos in GOW3 is around 20k poly's, so i'd say around 50k poly's is the most any model should ever be. 

    Not too long ago I was reading a blog on a guy that's just starting in modeling and he made a 50k model, it looked kind of like the girl in Heavenly sword, anyways this 50k model from this beginner looked really really good.

  • Level 58
    Death=Adder
    Posts: 23119
    User is Online
    Feb 27, 2013 5:29 pm GMT

    ferret-gamer wrote:
    finalstar2007 wrote:

    clyde46 wrote:
    And you call yourself a Cow.

    Im a gamer, i just game i dont care for the nerdy stuff

    seriously sonys presentation when they talked about the specs i was like da fuq all this means da whole time .. till they showed UI and the games then im like thats how it should be

    A polygon is a shape, video games are usually built out of triangles, the TC was wondering how many triangles will be used to create the meshes for next generation character models.

    triangles? wow.. good thing we got developers to make us these things

    [QUOTE="ferret-gamer"][QUOTE="finalstar2007"]

    [QUOTE="clyde46"] And you call yourself a Cow.[/QUOTE]

    Im a gamer, i just game i dont care for the nerdy stuff :P

    seriously sonys presentation when they talked about the specs i was like da fuq all this means da whole time :P.. till they showed UI and the games then im like thats how it should be :P

    [/QUOTE] A polygon is a shape, video games are usually built out of triangles, the TC was wondering how many triangles will be used to create the meshes for next generation character models.[/QUOTE]

    triangles? wow.. good thing we got developers to make us these things

  • Level 24
    I Feel Asleep!!
    Posts: 3396
    Feb 27, 2013 5:29 pm GMT

    Chozofication wrote:

    I think Kratos in GOW3 is around 20k poly's, so i'd say around 50k poly's is the most any model should ever be. 

    Not too long ago I was reading a blog on a guy that's just starting in modeling and he made a 50k model, it looked kind of like the girl in Heavenly sword, anyways this 50k model from this beginner looked really really good.

    Most models for the more "realistic" looking characters and creatures actually go well into the millions before being wrapped in a game res mesh.  This has been the workflow for about 8 years now.  Sculpt the model up to extreme detail so you know it looks good.  Then build a game res mesh around it and bake all the details down to texture maps.

    And this workflow has become very efficient.  Its amazing what even a beginner can pull off like you said.  

    And the good thing is that all these character and creature artists already have experience building models way beyond what gaming hardware can handle.  So they don't even have to learn anything new as the hardware gets better.

    ---

    [QUOTE="Chozofication"]

    I think Kratos in GOW3 is around 20k poly's, so i'd say around 50k poly's is the most any model should ever be. 

    Not too long ago I was reading a blog on a guy that's just starting in modeling and he made a 50k model, it looked kind of like the girl in Heavenly sword, anyways this 50k model from this beginner looked really really good.

    [/QUOTE]

    Most models for the more "realistic" looking characters and creatures actually go well into the millions before being wrapped in a game res mesh.  This has been the workflow for about 8 years now.  Sculpt the model up to extreme detail so you know it looks good.  Then build a game res mesh around it and bake all the details down to texture maps.

    And this workflow has become very efficient.  Its amazing what even a beginner can pull off like you said.  

    And the good thing is that all these character and creature artists already have experience building models way beyond what gaming hardware can handle.  So they don't even have to learn anything new as the hardware gets better.

  • Level 24
    I Feel Asleep!!
    Posts: 3396
    Feb 27, 2013 5:31 pm GMT

    finalstar2007 wrote:

    ferret-gamer wrote:
    finalstar2007 wrote:

    Im a gamer, i just game i dont care for the nerdy stuff

    seriously sonys presentation when they talked about the specs i was like da fuq all this means da whole time .. till they showed UI and the games then im like thats how it should be

    A polygon is a shape, video games are usually built out of triangles, the TC was wondering how many triangles will be used to create the meshes for next generation character models.

    triangles? wow.. good thing we got developers to make us these things

    Its not as bad as it sounds.  It used to be f*cking miserable (long before I got into 3d modeling luckily), but these days we are spoiled.  Its still difficult, but the tools out there are just great.  Trust me, its not like some guy is out there building these models one triangle at a time lol.  That would be terrible!

    ---

    [QUOTE="finalstar2007"]

    [QUOTE="ferret-gamer"][QUOTE="finalstar2007"]

    Im a gamer, i just game i dont care for the nerdy stuff :P

    seriously sonys presentation when they talked about the specs i was like da fuq all this means da whole time :P.. till they showed UI and the games then im like thats how it should be :P

    [/QUOTE] A polygon is a shape, video games are usually built out of triangles, the TC was wondering how many triangles will be used to create the meshes for next generation character models.[/QUOTE]

    triangles? wow.. good thing we got developers to make us these things

    [/QUOTE]

    Its not as bad as it sounds.  It used to be f*cking miserable (long before I got into 3d modeling luckily), but these days we are spoiled.  Its still difficult, but the tools out there are just great.  Trust me, its not like some guy is out there building these models one triangle at a time lol.  That would be terrible!

  • Level 23
    Super Bagman
    Posts: 1366
    Feb 27, 2013 5:34 pm GMT

    Wiimotefan wrote:

    Chozofication wrote:

    I think Kratos in GOW3 is around 20k poly's, so i'd say around 50k poly's is the most any model should ever be. 

    Not too long ago I was reading a blog on a guy that's just starting in modeling and he made a 50k model, it looked kind of like the girl in Heavenly sword, anyways this 50k model from this beginner looked really really good.

    Most models for the more "realistic" looking characters and creatures actually go well into the millions before being wrapped in a game res mesh.  This has been the workflow for about 8 years now.  Sculpt the model up to extreme detail so you know it looks good.  Then build a game res mesh around it and bake all the details down to texture maps.

    And this workflow has become very efficient.  Its amazing what even a beginner can pull off like you said.  

    And the good thing is that all these character and creature artists already have experience building models way beyond what gaming hardware can handle.  So they don't even have to learn anything new as the hardware gets better.

    Yeah that makes a lot of sense.  Most improvements in next gen games with regards to poly's will be NPC's and environment details, no more model grouping into a flat nasty texture on the ground.  Forget what the technique is called but man is it nasty. 

    Games are going to have all the power they need from PS4 for the whole generation because of diminishing returns and how incredibly detailed they'll already look, i'm very excited.

    [QUOTE="Wiimotefan"]

    [QUOTE="Chozofication"]

    I think Kratos in GOW3 is around 20k poly's, so i'd say around 50k poly's is the most any model should ever be. 

    Not too long ago I was reading a blog on a guy that's just starting in modeling and he made a 50k model, it looked kind of like the girl in Heavenly sword, anyways this 50k model from this beginner looked really really good.

    [/QUOTE]

    Most models for the more "realistic" looking characters and creatures actually go well into the millions before being wrapped in a game res mesh.  This has been the workflow for about 8 years now.  Sculpt the model up to extreme detail so you know it looks good.  Then build a game res mesh around it and bake all the details down to texture maps.

    And this workflow has become very efficient.  Its amazing what even a beginner can pull off like you said.  

    And the good thing is that all these character and creature artists already have experience building models way beyond what gaming hardware can handle.  So they don't even have to learn anything new as the hardware gets better.

    [/QUOTE]

    Yeah that makes a lot of sense.  Most improvements in next gen games with regards to poly's will be NPC's and environment details, no more model grouping into a flat nasty texture on the ground.  Forget what the technique is called but man is it nasty. 

    Games are going to have all the power they need from PS4 for the whole generation because of diminishing returns and how incredibly detailed they'll already look, i'm very excited.

  • Level 19
    Gitaroo Man
    Posts: 4512
    User is Online
    Feb 27, 2013 5:34 pm GMT
    Wiimotefan wrote:

    finalstar2007 wrote:

    ferret-gamer wrote:
    A polygon is a shape, video games are usually built out of triangles, the TC was wondering how many triangles will be used to create the meshes for next generation character models.

    triangles? wow.. good thing we got developers to make us these things

    Its not as bad as it sounds.  It used to be f*cking miserable (long before I got into 3d modeling luckily), but these days we are spoiled.  Its still difficult, but the tools out there are just great.  Trust me, its not like some guy is out there building these models one triangle at a time lol.  That would be terrible!


    This.
    ------------------------------------
    [QUOTE="Wiimotefan"]

    [QUOTE="finalstar2007"]

    [QUOTE="ferret-gamer"] A polygon is a shape, video games are usually built out of triangles, the TC was wondering how many triangles will be used to create the meshes for next generation character models.[/QUOTE]

    triangles? wow.. good thing we got developers to make us these things

    [/QUOTE]

    Its not as bad as it sounds.  It used to be f*cking miserable (long before I got into 3d modeling luckily), but these days we are spoiled.  Its still difficult, but the tools out there are just great.  Trust me, its not like some guy is out there building these models one triangle at a time lol.  That would be terrible!

    [/QUOTE] This.
  • Level 13
    Toobin'
    Posts: 477
    User is Online
    Feb 27, 2013 5:43 pm GMT

    Wiimotefan wrote:

    finalstar2007 wrote:

    ferret-gamer wrote:
    A polygon is a shape, video games are usually built out of triangles, the TC was wondering how many triangles will be used to create the meshes for next generation character models.

    triangles? wow.. good thing we got developers to make us these things

    Its not as bad as it sounds.  It used to be f*cking miserable (long before I got into 3d modeling luckily), but these days we are spoiled.  Its still difficult, but the tools out there are just great.  Trust me, its not like some guy is out there building these models one triangle at a time lol.  That would be terrible!

    Bit off topic, but are you a professional or a hobbyist? Reason I ask is that I used to do a bit of 3D modelling and it seemed pretty labour intensive to me. The options at the time for amateurs were things like Cinema 4D and 3ds Max neither of which exactly streamlined the process. Are any of the tools game developers and animators use available at the consumer level these days?

     

    *Edit*

    Just googled them and the same software's still being used, should change the question to has the workflow on these kind of modelling programmes improved significantly since 2004ish?

    Was thinking about getting back into it, might play around with some of the free modelling software that's out there and see how things have changed  

    Edited on Feb 27, 2013 5:50 pm GMT

    [QUOTE="Wiimotefan"]

    [QUOTE="finalstar2007"]

    [QUOTE="ferret-gamer"] A polygon is a shape, video games are usually built out of triangles, the TC was wondering how many triangles will be used to create the meshes for next generation character models.[/QUOTE]

    triangles? wow.. good thing we got developers to make us these things

    [/QUOTE]

    Its not as bad as it sounds.  It used to be f*cking miserable (long before I got into 3d modeling luckily), but these days we are spoiled.  Its still difficult, but the tools out there are just great.  Trust me, its not like some guy is out there building these models one triangle at a time lol.  That would be terrible!

    [/QUOTE] Bit off topic, but are you a professional or a hobbyist? Reason I ask is that I used to do a bit of 3D modelling and it seemed pretty labour intensive to me. The options at the time for amateurs were things like Cinema 4D and 3ds Max neither of which exactly streamlined the process. Are any of the tools game developers and animators use available at the consumer level these days?

     

    *Edit*

    Just googled them and the same software's still being used, should change the question to has the workflow on these kind of modelling programmes improved significantly since 2004ish?

    Was thinking about getting back into it, might play around with some of the free modelling software that's out there and see how things have changed :) 

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