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Dyad Creator Calls Linear Stories in Games Worthless, Mass Effect Horrible
- Dec 1, 2012 2:48 am GMT
Most videogames tell a totally linear story. The player controls the action segments, while dialogue etc are handled through cutscenes. No matter how you play the action segments the story will play out the same way. Some games like Mass Effect (and many others) gives the player some choices along the way. What this guy is saying is that adding some choices is meaningless because you can't add all possible choices. I do not understand that argument at all. I think games like The Witcher 2, Deus Ex and Mass Effect are all more interesting experiences thanks to the handful of choices they do provide.
It's interesting that he focused on Mass Effect and not for example Deus Ex, even if it does the same thing. But I suppose attacking the latter is a big no no for a pretentious moron like himself, while criticizing the former will give him a lot of cheap points in the "hardcore" community as this thread proves. Oh and Mass Effect story >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dyad's story.
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- Dec 1, 2012 4:49 am GMTEh, I got totally caught up in the story and characters of the Mass Effect series and had a blast playing the game. I think he get wrapped up in the idea that anything had to be possible and that was the entire point of the series. They never set out to do that. They set out to tell a specific story where the player could fill in some blanks and take a handful of branching paths. It was never going to be this infinite choice with infinite outcomes to the degree that anything imaginable is possible. More important, they never presented it as this completely unguided and uncrafted story with no developer created plot points or story beats. Saying that the story fails because it didn't do something it never set out to is lame. Anyways, this guy sounds like a d**k. Remind me to never buy his games. I'd hate to know that I had any hand in financing more wild, indie, holier than thou, "I hate anything made by a major studio" rants.
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- Dec 1, 2012 4:59 am GMT
''My father believed if the world found out who I really was it'd reject me. He was convinced that the world wasn't ready. What do you think?''Mass Effect is amazing. Anyone who say it's horrible doesn't have even a small grasp on reality.
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- Dec 1, 2012 5:16 am GMTI think the criteria for what makes a good story isn't how good it would be if you were to extract it from it's media and take a comparison with everything in print. That's silly. What makes a story good or not is either the ideas presented, or the way it engages the audience. And I have to say that most video-games do a better job of engaging audiences that most other mediums...even when they suck. He is right in a sense that when you have a game created by a developer, that the player can only go through only so many finite permutations, but is that to say that he story is meaningless? I'm not so sure. I'm not really sure what he means by a 'meaningful' experience. For many players what makes the game isn't the story given to them, but the narrative they create themselves when going through a linear experience (and it is possible to create this narrative in all but the most incredibly linear games).
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- Dec 1, 2012 5:40 am GMT[QUOTE="Shawn McGrath"]Its superficial to say a story is a sequence of events. A story is a sequence of events that does something, and what it does it put ideas into readers heads, or people who are observing the story. Dark Souls does that in a lot of places Sens Fortress and The Painted World are examples; f*ck the entire shape of Anor Londo is another example by using setting and theme and gameplay interactions. It uses all of those things to put ideas in your head the same way that linear text would put ideas in your head, but it uses gameplay to do it. I dont think it goes particularly far with this idea, but it goes in a direction that I think is substantially more valuable than linear storyline in video games.[/QUOTE] Completely agree. Games shouldn't use just linear stories, but use the gameplay to tell a story. Linear stories should be reserved for books and movies.
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- Dec 1, 2012 5:57 am GMT
Okay. I'll divide my post into two parts.
1. Firstly, I agree that the way that the presentation of differences in consequences of our choices has turned out to be in Mass Effects was quite underwhelming and sometimes downright dissapointing and I am all for calling Bioware out on their exaggerations and overhyping during the pre-release campaign. Claims like [url=http://popwatch.ew.com/2012/02/28/mass-effect-3-mac-walters/]"[The presence of the Rachni] has huge consequences in Mass Effect 3. Even just in the final battle with the Reapers."[/url] or [url=http://www.gameinformer.com/b/features/archive/2012/01/10/mass1525-effect-3-cas5ey-fdsafdhudson-interviewae.aspx?PostPageIndex=2]"Its not even in any way like the traditional game endings, where you can say how many endings there are or whether you got ending A, B, or C."[/url] were borderline misleading and responsible for many disappointed fans.
But, Bio got some serious beating for it (months of rage and outcry on their forums, formation of several protest groups like Retake Mass Effect or Hold The Line, submissions to Federal Trade Commission and Better Business Bureau or something like that,...) so it's not like they got away with it.
And it's not just Bioware. The most recent instance might be people complaining on Telltale's forums about how the choices barely matter in The Walking Dead.
So yeah, people aren't completely stupid and if the developers will keep stretching and twisting the facts, they will be called out again and again. So, I don't see a problem with that actually. Eventually, the studios will either be more truthful and accurate in their statements or will actually try to go for more different consequences. And heck, some developers like CD Projekt Red (the Witcher 2) or Obsidian Entertainment (Alpha Protocol) already do (both games have mutually exclusive missions with different objectives, locations, enemies and characters depending on player's choices).
2. That said, I absolutely detest that guy's (McGrath) defeatist and rigid mindset. Saying that it's (currently) not feasible to make a quality story with branching paths in modern videogames, "so attempting that is a worthless endeavor." and implying that no one should even try to go for it is the worst thing that one can do to videogames. Or heck, anything.
What the frak?! Seriously. Were would we be if everyone said "Waaah, it's not doable! Everyone stop even trying!!1". Of course many things (including making good branching interactive story in videogame) are hard and of couse many people will fail miserably plenty of times before someone does it "right".And then, someone else will do it right too. And then, someone else will improve it further. That's how our civilization has been working for milenia so why stopping now?!
And it's not like a "good" game with "good" branching story is a complete pipe dream or something. Heck, CD Projekt pretty much delivered (or almost delivered) and Bio could have too - they made ME3 in 2 years (including addition of MP), imagine if they could have spent another year or two.
Besides, many players (including me) don't expect neither a Nobel Prize writing a nor complete freedom in their games, so even if the games won't be up to Mr. McGrath's expectations, they could still find their audience, be successful and help pushing the boundaries of what is possible in videogames further.
TLDR: The highlighted part of McGrath's opinions sucks balls IMO. He is right about Mass Effect being dissapointing as far as presentation of choices and consequences is concerned, but his "its impossible to ever get it to be truly there... so attempting that is a worthless endeavor" is counterproductive and harmful for the industry.
Would rage / rant again.- Please wait. Quick reply will be available shortly.
- Dec 1, 2012 6:04 am GMT
Gaming simply put is not a good medium for storytelling, save for adventure games and even in the adventure genre stories are worse than elsewhere.
Mass Effect has a horrible story, even for gaming standards. With hamfisted setting, bad science and dialogue that often feels forced. Maybe though, I feel the biggest issue I had with Mass Effect's story is its execution. Which may have a bit to do with the fact that they tried to cover too much in the universe, so it simply put ended up being unfocused.
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- Dec 1, 2012 7:46 am GMT
[QUOTE="padaporra"]
Mass Effect is amazing. Anyone who say it's horrible doesn't have even a small grasp on reality.
[/QUOTE]
That makes no sense
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- Dec 1, 2012 7:52 am GMT
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All i can say you him is "Cool story, bro!".- Please wait. Quick reply will be available shortly.
- Dec 1, 2012 7:55 am GMT
''My father believed if the world found out who I really was it'd reject me. He was convinced that the world wasn't ready. What do you think?''[QUOTE="seanmcloughlin"]
[QUOTE="padaporra"]
Mass Effect is amazing. Anyone who say it's horrible doesn't have even a small grasp on reality.
[/QUOTE]
That makes no sense
[/QUOTE]
You mean semantically?- Please wait. Quick reply will be available shortly.
- Dec 1, 2012 8:01 am GMT
|| AMD A8-4500M @ 1.9 GHz || AMD Radeon HD 7460G || 8 GB DDR3 || 750 GB HDD ||
The Atheism Union || last.fm || Try avast! for free![QUOTE="CanYouDiglt"]Oh please run of the mill. If the story is as bad as some of you want to act there would not be so many people invested in the story, characters, and the world. Also if it was just run -of-the-mill you would not be still talking about it. Just say you do not like it and that is one thing but saying run-of-the-mill is just simply not true.[/QUOTE] Looks like my opinion upset you. Cry more.- Please wait. Quick reply will be available shortly.
- Dec 1, 2012 8:54 am GMT
[QUOTE="DarkLink77"]Sound off, System Warriors.
[/QUOTE] Oh, God.- Please wait. Quick reply will be available shortly.
- Dec 1, 2012 8:59 am GMTCanYouDiglt wrote:Oh please run of the mill. If the story is as bad as some of you want to act there would not be so many people invested in the story, characters, and the world. Also if it was just run -of-the-mill you would not be still talking about it. Just say you do not like it and that is one thing but saying run-of-the-mill is just simply not true.
Lol, all I have to say to you is "Twilight".
I agree with the OP, for the most part. I think there are some games where the linear story works, and can be quite moving. It's just that it defeats the purpose of the game when the linear story outshines the gameplay.
As for Mass Effect, I feel that the series' storyline is pretty derivative, linear, and highly overrated. It's like Star Wars and Star Trek mixed with space machine guns and every dorky pimple-faced adolescent male's wet dream: The Asari.
I'll admit, the first game's story showed promise, especially when we were treated to the conversation with Sovereign, a nice little space opera twist. But then it sacrificed its credibility when, upon finding out that the Citadel was the gateway through which the Reapers would enter, Shepard quickly rushes there to save the universe by...shooting yet more Geth with his space machine gun.
Any space opera worth its salt would have had a much larger, more universally impactful ending, such as the logical choice of destroying the Citadel because the Reapers are about to come and kill EVERYONE so blow it up right now because sacrificing our mass relays and civilization as we know it isn't so bad when the other option is EVERYBODY DIES! Oh, we're gonna wait for this guy Shepard and two of his friends to shoot more Geth with their space machine guns? Just, this one guy and two of his friends? On foot? Really?!?? Oh, he's some kind of handsome, shaved-headed badass who bangs whoever he pleases (with the help of GameFAQs). Why didn't you say so? I am now strangely confident that all will be well
With the ending of the first game, Bioware knew something along these lines had to happen, but they decided to hold back the sort of, hard choice, universe-changing ending for $ome rea$on. Oh yeah, in anticipation of $equels. We do eventually get that sort of ending, after much filler and padding. And then they undo it in the ending expansion. Why did they do thi$? Only they know.
Anyway, anybody who thinks that the Mass Effect storyline has any merit whatsoever (and I'm talking especially to those who think it rates outside of video games), even just in the realm of science fiction, needs to self-educate. I invite you to google the Hugo Award and the Nebula Award, go find lists of winners, visit a library, and read some actually good sci-fi. If you think that the lore is incredibly deep, or that Mass Effect is an example of great world-building (again, in sci-fi in general), then you haven't read Dune, and you should. If you want some real space opera, allow me to refer you to the works of Alastair Reynolds, Iain M. Banks, and Vernor Vinge, all of which provide satisfying space opera twists and endings. If you only like "mature" games and just can't live without the blood and guts and violence and sex, then you'd probably enjoy Altered Carbon by Richard K. Morgan. This guy's books (mostly not space opera, but still sci-fi) make Mass Effect look like Sesame street, starring Ernie as Shepard, and Bert as FemShep. Finally, if, heaven forbid, you think there is some sort of deep social commentary, or metaphor, or satire to be found in the Mass Effect storyline, then please, as a sci-fi fan, you owe it to yourself to read the science fiction works of Ursula K. LeGuin.
Edited on Dec 1, 2012 9:01 am GMT[QUOTE="CanYouDiglt"]Oh please run of the mill. If the story is as bad as some of you want to act there would not be so many people invested in the story, characters, and the world. Also if it was just run -of-the-mill you would not be still talking about it. Just say you do not like it and that is one thing but saying run-of-the-mill is just simply not true.[/QUOTE]
Lol, all I have to say to you is "Twilight".
I agree with the OP, for the most part. I think there are some games where the linear story works, and can be quite moving. It's just that it defeats the purpose of the game when the linear story outshines the gameplay.
As for Mass Effect, I feel that the series' storyline is pretty derivative, linear, and highly overrated. It's like Star Wars and Star Trek mixed with space machine guns and every dorky pimple-faced adolescent male's wet dream: The Asari.
I'll admit, the first game's story showed promise, especially when we were treated to the conversation with Sovereign, a nice little space opera twist. But then it sacrificed its credibility when, upon finding out that the Citadel was the gateway through which the Reapers would enter, Shepard quickly rushes there to save the universe by...shooting yet more Geth with his space machine gun.
Any space opera worth its salt would have had a much larger, more universally impactful ending, such as the logical choice of destroying the Citadel because the Reapers are about to come and kill EVERYONE so blow it up right now because sacrificing our mass relays and civilization as we know it isn't so bad when the other option is EVERYBODY DIES! Oh, we're gonna wait for this guy Shepard and two of his friends to shoot more Geth with their space machine guns? Just, this one guy and two of his friends? On foot? Really?!?? Oh, he's some kind of handsome, shaved-headed badass who bangs whoever he pleases (with the help of GameFAQs). Why didn't you say so? I am now strangely confident that all will be well :roll:
With the ending of the first game, Bioware knew something along these lines had to happen, but they decided to hold back the sort of, hard choice, universe-changing ending for $ome rea$on. Oh yeah, in anticipation of $equels. We do eventually get that sort of ending, after much filler and padding. And then they undo it in the ending expansion. Why did they do thi$? Only they know.
Anyway, anybody who thinks that the Mass Effect storyline has any merit whatsoever (and I'm talking especially to those who think it rates outside of video games), even just in the realm of science fiction, needs to self-educate. I invite you to google the Hugo Award and the Nebula Award, go find lists of winners, visit a library, and read some actually good sci-fi. If you think that the lore is incredibly deep, or that Mass Effect is an example of great world-building (again, in sci-fi in general), then you haven't read Dune, and you should. If you want some real space opera, allow me to refer you to the works of Alastair Reynolds, Iain M. Banks, and Vernor Vinge, all of which provide satisfying space opera twists and endings. If you only like "mature" games and just can't live without the blood and guts and violence and sex, then you'd probably enjoy Altered Carbon by Richard K. Morgan. This guy's books (mostly not space opera, but still sci-fi) make Mass Effect look like Sesame street, starring Ernie as Shepard, and Bert as FemShep. Finally, if, heaven forbid, you think there is some sort of deep social commentary, or metaphor, or satire to be found in the Mass Effect storyline, then please, as a sci-fi fan, you owe it to yourself to read the science fiction works of Ursula K. LeGuin.
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- Dec 1, 2012 8:59 am GMT
"and any attempt to put storylines in games, in any traditional sense, is completely idiotic."
Wouldn't that include nearly every major game in the last 5 years?
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- Dec 1, 2012 9:02 am GMTseanmcloughlin wrote:Your actions don't guide anything. In any way. There is no point in ME1 or ME2 where you can avoid that space child ending scenario or lead your character to a different outcome. No matter what you do in the entire trilogy it still boils down to those 3 coloured choices at the end. That's not making "your choices matter", it's making it SEEM like they matter
Minor character choices are fine, it gives the story a little extra color.
The ending probably could have been handled much better, but that really is a can of worms. If you're going to actually support a correctly divergent story, you're either sacrificing a lot of the length, and/or a huge amount of money|time. However Starbrat's complete lack of development, with their expectation of you caring about him because he's a kid, is what I find most grating about the series...
1oh1nine1 wrote:As for Mass Effect, I feel that the series' storyline is pretty derivative, linear, and highly overrated. It's like Star Wars and Star Trek mixed with space machine guns and every dorky pimple-faced adolescent male's wet dream: The Asari.
I like its setting just like Avatar(the last airbender, not that blue people cgi trash), Star Trek or Star Wars; they're potentially really cool settings, sadly often marred by Horrible writing (f*ck Avatar's cheesy teen romance trash)Edited on Dec 1, 2012 9:07 am GMT
[QUOTE="seanmcloughlin"]Your actions don't guide anything. In any way. There is no point in ME1 or ME2 where you can avoid that space child ending scenario or lead your character to a different outcome. No matter what you do in the entire trilogy it still boils down to those 3 coloured choices at the end. That's not making "your choices matter", it's making it SEEM like they matter[/QUOTE]
Minor character choices are fine, it gives the story a little extra color.
The ending probably could have been handled much better, but that really is a can of worms. If you're going to actually support a correctly divergent story, you're either sacrificing a lot of the length, and/or a huge amount of money|time. However Starbrat's complete lack of development, with their expectation of you caring about him because he's a kid, is what I find most grating about the series...
[QUOTE="1oh1nine1"]As for Mass Effect, I feel that the series' storyline is pretty derivative, linear, and highly overrated. It's like Star Wars and Star Trek mixed with space machine guns and every dorky pimple-faced adolescent male's wet dream: The Asari.[/QUOTE]
:? I like its setting just like Avatar(the last airbender, not that blue people cgi trash), Star Trek or Star Wars; they're potentially really cool settings, sadly often marred by Horrible writing (f*ck Avatar's cheesy teen romance trash)
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- Dec 1, 2012 9:24 am GMT
Dont mess with the 6th![QUOTE="Maroxad"]
Gaming simply put is not a good medium for storytelling, save for adventure games and even in the adventure genre stories are worse than elsewhere.
Mass Effect has a horrible story, even for gaming standards. With hamfisted setting, bad science and dialogue that often feels forced. Maybe though, I feel the biggest issue I had with Mass Effect's story is its execution. Which may have a bit to do with the fact that they tried to cover too much in the universe, so it simply put ended up being unfocused.
[/QUOTE]
yea dont agree with you there buddy. Its no masterpiece but its not horrible ether.
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- Dec 1, 2012 9:37 am GMT[QUOTE="CanYouDiglt"][QUOTE="Zeviander"][QUOTE="Jolt_counter119"][...] just saying Mass Effect's story sucks doesn't make it fact [...][/QUOTE] But it does suck when compared to any other form of storytelling media. And even as a game it doesn't do anything special. Just very run-of-the-mill.[/QUOTE]Oh please run of the mill. If the story is as bad as some of you want to act there would not be so many people invested in the story, characters, and the world. Also if it was just run -of-the-mill you would not be still talking about it. Just say you do not like it and that is one thing but saying run-of-the-mill is just simply not true.[/QUOTE] Isn't Zeviander the guy that gets a raging hard on for every new game he plays?
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- Dec 1, 2012 9:45 am GMTExplain your position on ME's story. You call it horrible by video game standards; however, even by video game standards it easily stands in the upper echelon of story telling considering the scale of the universe and lore. You sound like you have a degree in writing and may actually know something about storytelling. I am curious as to what gives you the expertise to tell us why ME's story is such a piece of crap even by video game standards.DarkLink77 wrote:I really don't feel like going into this for the 300th time.The_Game21x wrote:DarkLink77 wrote:Um... it kind of is. Even by vidja game standards. Brocast. That I was not invited to, even though y'all quoted me like twice. Why no love?
Elaborate then.
And I didn't say I liked the story, I said I liked what 343 was doing in making better characters out of the MC and Cortana.
They didn't make the Chief a better character, though. And Cortana was pretty much the same. For serious, though, y no love? I'd love to do that if you guys need another dude. I told Champ that a while back, but scheduling conflict and all. As far as the guy calling out ME. If it is impossible to create a truly dynamic story within a video game, why even bring it up then? The guy sounds awfully elitist.
Edited on Dec 1, 2012 9:47 am GMT[QUOTE="DarkLink77"][QUOTE="The_Game21x"]
[QUOTE="DarkLink77"] Um... it kind of is. Even by vidja game standards. Brocast. That I was not invited to, even though y'all quoted me like twice. Why no love?[/QUOTE]
Elaborate then.
And I didn't say I liked the story, I said I liked what 343 was doing in making better characters out of the MC and Cortana.
[/QUOTE] I really don't feel like going into this for the 300th time. :P They didn't make the Chief a better character, though. And Cortana was pretty much the same. For serious, though, y no love? I'd love to do that if you guys need another dude. I told Champ that a while back, but scheduling conflict and all. :P[/QUOTE] Explain your position on ME's story. You call it horrible by video game standards; however, even by video game standards it easily stands in the upper echelon of story telling considering the scale of the universe and lore. You sound like you have a degree in writing and may actually know something about storytelling. I am curious as to what gives you the expertise to tell us why ME's story is such a piece of crap even by video game standards.
As far as the guy calling out ME. If it is impossible to create a truly dynamic story within a video game, why even bring it up then? The guy sounds awfully elitist.
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- Dec 1, 2012 9:52 am GMT
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Gintama
The best anime ever!!!Didn't read full post nor the thread but lemme guess how this all went down:
indie guy makes a game
indie guy thinks he's the best ever
indie guy dislikes teh mean evil corporations and big budget games because they are teh corporate
Gaming world goes crazy because he's the indie guy that made teh indie game
Gaming journalism interviews "worthless-indie-guy-thinking-he's-a-hotshot" stating that actual companies don't know "what the **** they are doing".
This thread and every other forum praises indie guy and loves him because he's so indie and his opinions are so refreshingly indie while big evil corporations are teh evil and baddie.
"I made an indie game, now my opinion on actual big gaming is extremely important and correct"
Someone tell me, am I right or wrong? I'm guessing I'm right.- Please wait. Quick reply will be available shortly.
- Dec 1, 2012 10:17 am GMT
The Mind of Game | Musical Musings | GUFUyourself | GS Blog | GUFUYourself Forum
Game's Biggest Fans: Slashless, Clock-W0rk, ReadingRainbow4 | Check out GUFUyourself! We Write Reviews and Stuff![QUOTE="Human-after-all"]
As far as the guy calling out ME. If it is impossible to create a truly dynamic story within a video game, why even bring it up then? The guy sounds awfully elitist.
[/QUOTE]
Because he thinks that we shouldn't even bother to try.
To which I say he can take his silly closedmindedness elsewhere.
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