GKPAIN+ Vs. PAIN+(GoWII)

I've realized that the boards' talk these days doesn't have anything to do with GoW, so I decided to create this thread to discuss the difference between GKPAIN+ and PAIN+ in GoWII.

Here are the PoC:

1- Damage recieved.

2- Damage on foes.

3- Collision damage.

4- Orbs effect.

If there are another PoC, please note them, aside from enemy grab damage because they deal nothing and they rarely happen. The winner is the easier. Ex. If PAIN+ turned out to be easier, then it wins. If GKPAIN+ turns to be the easier then GK wins.

Now I will start my comparison:

1- Damage recieved:

GK has a double extended health bar than that of DK, but the damage taken is double the damage of DK, so it's a tie in this point.

result: tie

2- Damage on foes:

DK damage on foes is x2 GK damage.

result: PAIN+ wins

3-Colllision damage:

GK collision's damage is x2 DK collision damage.

result: GKPAIN+ wins

4- Orbs effect:

GK EXP orbs effect is almost x3/x4 DK EXP orbs effect, but since this is PAIN+ conditions, then it doesn't deal a shit. Now, about HP/MP orbs effect(I included MP orbs in the PoC due to Theseus fight).DK MP/HP orbs effect is x4 GK MP/HP orbs effect.

result: PAIN+ wins

overall result: PAIN+ wins.

My point of view: GKPAIN+ is much harder than PAIN+ because fights that depends on collisions are short and easy, but fights that depends on chipping are long and sometimes tough. Also the orbs effect in GKPAIN+ is very weak and you don't have an alternative(chests).

You have to remember that compared to collisions, unupgraded Blade attacks are pretty weak. So GK's doubled collision damage ends up meaning more than PAIN+'s double normal attack damage. There aren't many fights were collisions don't apply, and in most the harder fights they do. Translator is just different, not really harder. The ER is noticeably easier than in PAIN+ (roughly 2/3's the length). Breeders, cave battles, Atlas Lift, Titan Minotaur 2, all easier as GK. Of the fights were you can't use collisions (mostly bosses), there's usually a very safe pattern that guarantees victory. It's not harder so much as longer and tedious. Lahkesis can get annoying for her high HP S1, followed by a long, fast death S2.

The only part of GKPAIN+ that is definitively harder than PAIN+ is Zeus w/BH, otherwise PAIN+ is harder overall.

Actually, I think the exact opposite. Fights that depends on collisions are easier than fights that depends on chipping.

>translator

It's not harder nor easier, because you have strong collision damage but the translator dies faster. Also due to strong collision you can't grab theFate Judges because they die with one collision only.

>ER

It's not really easier, it's true that you have stronger collision and the fight takes much less time but at PAIN+ you can use Spirits through barriers. It would be suicide if you used that method with GK.

>Breeders

Yeah, much easier with GK.

>Cave battles

What caves?

>TM2

No, it's a tie. With GK you can use collisions, with DK you can use the sleep spot.

>safe patterns

Not with Lahkesis and Kraken. Man, I remember that Kraken took me from 15-20 minutes and after I defeated him, my mind was completely screwed. 15-20 minutes stress, literally.

>PAIN+ is harder overall

Either way, figths that depend on collisions aren't so tough and short, but fights that depends on chipping are 'death=long grind back'.

Fights that depends on collisions are easier than fights that depends on chipping.

I disagree. The hardest fights in GoWII are Tranny and the ER, and both rely on collisions.

It's not really easier, it's true that you have stronger collision and the fight takes much less time but at PAIN+ you can use Spirits through barriers.

That's it though, the stronger collisions mostly remove the need for Spirit chipping. W1 you're pretty well guaranteed to kill off the Juggs with OH's. W3 changes from Spirit chipping to bounce/launch>OH on Sirens until they're dead then clean up. A few lucky collisions in W5 is all it takes to kill or seriously damage the minotaurs, and W7 is all about tossing grunts at the Cyclopses, which is twice as fast with GK.

What caves?

Passage of the Lowlands. First fight is Hades Minotaurs and Sirens, second is Juggs with Satyrs. Both collision based and both made easier with GK.

With GK you can use collisions, with DK you can use the sleep spot.

You can make TM go to sleep as GK too for an even easier time.

Man, I remember that Kraken took me from 15-20 minutes and after I defeated him, my mind was completely screwed.

As long as you use air square hits he isn't that bad. Lahkesis S1 can be chipped to death with s,t.

Either way, figths that depend on collisions aren't so tough and short

Again, I'd note the ER as significantly easier with GK, but I hate long fights that take any degree of skill.

>hardest fights are Tranny and ER

Nah, ER is easy with GK or with DK. With DK, use Spirits through barriers. With GK, W1 takes normal OH with Legionnaires, W3: PoP on Sirens through barriers then OH through barriers, W5: s6 on Satyrs or OH for collisions(s6 would be safer), W7: toss Sentries from long distance. About Tranny, as I said before, you have strong collisions but in return the translator dies faster and you can't toss the Fate Judges.

 >Battles at the Lowlands

Yep, easier with GK but also easy with DK.

>sleep spot with GK

It would be suicide.

>as long as you use s hits he isn't that bad

You didn't expect that I used t hits, right? The whole fight is stress even if you used the semi-sweet spot. Wait! Oh.. I'm so stupid, I used the semi-sweet spot for the first and second tail, I realized now that I should have used it only for the first tail because when the left tail strikes while you're at the semi-sweet spot, you can do a Spirit combo. At S2, it takes much more time because you can't do a Spirit combo, but I didn't think that the left tail won't strike you. So why use the sweet spot? Also it would take much less time and stress.

>Lahkesis S1 with s,t

That's another suicide. Lahkesis S1 is very easy till she flies up. So using s,t and then dying at the last phase is what I call suicide. So it's better to take advatage from her triple attack for landing Spirits(you can find it at GMG's speciality run thread).

With DK, use Spirits through barriers.

That takes a lot longer and more skill than just getting a few lucky collisions. See waves 5 & 7 compared to GK.

It would be suicide.

I'm talking retreating from TM2 to make go back asleep for an easier time dealing with the harpies (before flinging them back at him).

You didn't expect that I used t hits, right?

No. And air s,s,s is just for the face. Tentacles get Spirit.

So why use the sweet spot?

You mean why not use the sweet spot? I'm not following you here.

Lahkesis S1 is very easy till she flies up.

When she goes into the air exclusively, that's S2 and when things get harry.

So it's better to take advatage from her triple attack for landing Spirits

You mean the three hit combo? I use s,t x2, letting the first square hit her I-frames (Taz's strategy). It does a bit more than a single hit Spirit.

>Spirits through barriers needs more skills than collisions

No, they're both the same. I even think that using collisions could be a bit harder.

>W7

It's easier with GK but wither way it's easy.

>sleep spot to deal with Harpies

 Yeah, if things aren't going your way.

>why not use the sweet spot

No. I meant why use the sweet spot that would waste you too much time at S2? At S1 you can use the left tail triple stabs to do a Spirit combo, at S2 you you could either land t0 or t3, and take care of the word 'land'. So as long as the left tail won't attack you anymore, then you're just wasting your time using the sweet spot.

 >s,t x2 on Lahkesis

That's what I used to do at PAIN+ but at GKPAIN+ I used GMG's method. It's much faster.

>GKPain+ vs Regular Pain+ (GoWII):

Not getting too much into values, but I definitely think Regular Pain+ is harder than GKPain+ overall. Except ofcourse Zues with BH for GKPain+ being crazy.

But I definitely think that both runs compliment each other very nicely. Meaning, there are some areas in the game that require chipping with lvl1 blades. If you were able to do that efficiently with GKPain+, you will definitely be able to do it in regular Pain+ easily. Likewise, there are some ,optimally, collision based fights such that if you were able to do them efficiently and skillfully with regular Pain+, you will definitely find them easier in GKPain+.

But overall I think regular Pain+ is harder than GKPain+.

>Zeus w/BH

I don't like getting that into the PoC because it's not regulary in the run.

>will definitly be able to do it in PAIN+

Yes, that's why I consider GKPAIN+ harder.

>collision based fights

>will be able to do it at GKPAIN+

That's my point, collision fights are easier than chipping fights(except for the translator). Even the translator isn't much easier with GK because of the points I've mentioned before in this thread.

Anyway, do you recommend that I use the sweet spot at Kraken in S2?

I'll address things as they come to mind, then then make responses to what is said in this thread thus far.Let's start with a link to our previous discussion of this matter: http://www.youtube.com/all_comments?v=x4A8WQw40Jo

So let's get some things out of the way, shall we?  NG and NG+.  NG doesn't need too much explaining.  Get things as you go, start with the base, etc.  NG+ starts you with whatever upgrades you had (if any), forces MAX'd extensions, grants all non-relics from the start (RotT starts at lvl2 upon getting it), allows BoO (option to use other subs during the BoO sections), etc.  Due to the nature of NG+ with regards to extensions, NER isn't not an option.  This means all 'item' chests will instead give up EXP instead.  Uber chests for MP or HP will give full refills (regardless of stats) instead of an extension.  Things like the drain into the BoO instead refill orbs rather than take them away.  Urns are another matter, but who is seriously concerning themselves with that for this discussion?

NUR/NUR+ and PAIN/PAIN+ are default Kratos runs we recgonize.  These are strictly New Game only.  NG+ versions are possible, but not counted.  They would be different.  GK is one of the non-default costumes.  These are only usable in NG+.  By default, GK runs must be NG+ which creates an advantageous setting (as detailed above).  Some of those perks won't apply in PAIN+, but we'll get into that.

As a costume, GK has worse stats than the default save for EXP.  That only helps for a bit in GKTMMAX (not a recognized run).  GKTMNUR, GKPAIN and GKPAIN+ don't benefit from this as EXP usage isn't allowed.  When looking at the stats for GK, you have to remember we are not able to have NER to make the runs truly equivalent.  GKTMNUR is not set against NUR+.  It's more the equivalent of NUR.  GKPAIN and GKPAIN+ without GK (instead default Kratos) would seem the same were it not for the consideration of NG+.  Doing your PAIN/PAIN+ on NG+ won't count and we all know why.  It won't meet one of the conditions to be that run.  With GK, there is no choice in the matter.  You have to ignore that in favor of the alternative experience offered with the stats (good with the bad) and the NG+ pros that come with it.

To go into more detail, GK has 50% Power, 50% Armor, 25% recovery (HP/MP/RP) and 400% EXP orb worth.  Power does not affect certain moves (nor even upgrades in the normal way *SoD's PS* if any for some specials *DR's laser and AotG*).  Grabs. grab reverses and spells (other than AQ) come to mind.  Armor % governs collision damage (they're inverse of each other).

Though GK has less damage, GKTMNUR allows for magic and sub-weapons.  Even without these (PAIN/PAIN+), grabs are not taken away (nor reversals).  Grabs work for many fights.  Ring-outs (and other environmental hazards) pick up some slack along with collisions.  One still has most relics for PAIN (the biggest deal being the Fleece).  GKTMNUR would still allow rage for what that matters (means to mostly mute damage we take (also applies to Tranny) as we tank hits and deal more damage (through increased modifiers) where applicable (most cases *BH would usually be the focus*).  Much of the PAIN+ and GKPAIN+ will consist of the same sorts of tactics to work around our low damage, but GK will get more out of them (stronger collisions).  It's just when we lack collisions that it will take twice as long (if one can't supplement this with ring-out or something of the like).  This is typical of most boss encounters.  Lahkesis would be a case where GK only offers downsides from the perspective of PAIN+.  It will take longer. Most of the time, GK will have equal or greater returns despite inferior direct damage (which is not the focus of good tactics for these runs considered). The main issue will be how good the player is with non-direct damage for fights that allow it.  When that option is gone, it's going to be a matter of doing the same things, but longer (which is troublesome in its own way *player fatigue. performance degeneration, etc.*).

On the front of Armor %, one must remember to consider more than this stat.  In NUR, you can extend towards 200 (MAX) rather than sticking to base of 100 (MIN).  You would have an advantage over GK as such.  In NUR+, you have the NER factored.  PAIN and PAIN+ both require that of NG runs.  GK must be NG+, so he gets a pass. What is the consequence of this?  Deceptive HP mostly.  Though you will have 200 units of HP rather than 100 (as you would in the regular PAIN+), you take double damage.  Seems like that advantage is canceld out.  However, some damage sources don't scale with Armor % (as with enemy grabs).  A slight edge is then awarded to GK here.  Going back to collisions, this is a benefit to GK.  RotT still mutes it for runs allowing that (good for Tranny).  It's just that these high collisions can also kill the Tranny in a flash (he has 100HP while full/half collisions would be 100/50 respectively *dog kicks/other sources in that case*).  Winning fast tends to help more than the potential to lose fast while one makes the allowance for the checkpoint exploit in that instance.  To say it again, one only appears to be taking more damage with GK.  That's more a psychological trick (you might overestimate how much damage you can take due to the stretching of the otherwise same bar).  No damage source receives a special bump due to low Armor % (but I'd already noted cases that just ignore it to stay 'low').

Recovery is an area where GK takes a hit.  Chests are worth less.  A lot less. Orb drops in general are as such (foe based cases must be considered).  I'd already noted how NG+ lets one work around that in a few specific cases, but the game in general can help negate that on both sides due to post-boss refills (something GoWII does).  On the HP front, you may basically have the same amount of life in reality (aside from the GK edge with grabs on us), but it is true that GK won't recover nearly as well should you take damage and need the HP before you get to a point that would restore your life (without needing to resort to truly orb % based sources).  For magic, the damage is not altered (obviously) nor the cost.  You have twice as large a pool for casts (a benefit), but the recovery is trash. Again, the noted refill points can be planned around, but when one wishes to be liberal with MP use, recovery will demand many chests to get the job done.  That's more talk for NUR/NUR+ vs GKTMNUR. PAIN/PAIN+ and GKPAIN/GKPAIN+ don't get to use magic save for where forced (Theseus).  So one should look at Theseus.  Does having the extra shots make up for needing to kill more Erebus Minotaurs to get the little bit of MP needed for the last few to bring him down?  Depends on what takes more Erebus Minotaur kills to wrap things up with, I'd say.  So which is it?  Don't remember.  I'd still give GK the edge here (as it should be close) due to grab, grab reverse (the grab Theseus uses helps go around the Power % issue) and collision damage.  Most of the time, a vet won't have issues planning around what they can manage with MP (or take in terms of HP loss).  Magic trials are another source of MP refills, but in terms of HP, there is a period between Icarus and Last Spartan where you aren't getting much of anything (farming the Cyclops Brutes is about the best you can do). That can prove a rough patch (ignoring the death exploit approach to getting more life at a given checkpoint).

EXP is not an important talking point for what is otherwise a discussion of challenge runs that don't allow the use of this.  I'll take this time to instead note that, from a 'no damage' persective, often GK would simply be easier.  He's not slower or lacking some options (has more in general).  Just does less damage (mostly worked around by the tactics we already use for both runs) while mostly taking the same (or less).  For those that take damage and don't have a good feel for what they can take (familiarity), it would be troubling.

Deeb: >easier wins

GK wins.  Mostly.  I've made that position clear.

>enemy grabs deal little and rarely happen

Aside from these, GK and default are the same when only comparing PAIN+ to GKPAIN+ (as you wish to focus on).  With these (no matter how small, they are still a factor), GK gets the advantage.  Again, there is no situation where he truly takes more on the front of Armor %.  Recovery has to be considered carefully to better understand the matter of 'damage we take' when comparing the two.  Death exploit aside along with disallowed Uber chets, BoO drain will still refill life.  Boss QTEs will still end in our total refill aswell.  Most vets will find that to be more than enough for them.  It's just that long patch that would prove capable of wearing down the runner a bit (if they're taking damage moving forward).

>Armor is tied

Aside from the consideration of grabs (no matter how small, they are a factor that favors GK).

>damage on foes

Grabs, spells (not PAIN+ concern), hazards and some specials (not PAIN+ concern) won't be affected.  This would be a tie.  Default does deal more damage, but another consideration for damage to foes is collisions (which are doubled).  Though tied to Armor % (inversely), collisions are a damage dealer, so they are a concern of this category.  In a PAIN+, one doesn't tend to go around looking to chip every fight with direct damage.  Things like ring-out and grabs will be used to go around that.  That takes away the advantage.  Collisions will favor GK (aside from turning on him potentially in the Tranny fight).  Much of the game allows for the 'equal ground' and even the aspect that favors GK.  It's just that we have bits where there aren't work arounds and direct damage becomes the only option. That's where GK would be at a disadvantage.  Would you gents say there are more of those than cases that are equal or even favorable to GK?  I'd say such places where GK is slighted are far fewer.  Thus I give him the edge again.  Not as one-sided as in other areas, but GK mostly has it easier.  Where it gets to be 'worse', isn't exactly far harder, just a matter which will take twice as much time to chip away.

>collision damage

As a seperate condition, eh?  Obviously GK is favored here (aside from potential backlash with the Tranny).  As far as I'm concerned, it's just another extension of 'damage to foes'.

>shit

GS sure is curious with what terms it allows.

>orb effect

Indeed EXP can be ignored for the purposes of this discussion.  As noted, GK does indeed suffer recovery issues.  I'd detailed why I feel they are mostly a moot issue save for one long stretch (maybe Theseus).  I'd only just barely consider giving PAIN+ the edge for being 'easier' in this regard.  Just that it matters less.

>PAIN+ wins

You noted two 'wins' for each.  How did you decide what's most imporatnt for the overall result?  Obviously I do not agree with the assessment.

>fights that depend on collisons are short and easy

Because of collisions. Most fights work with collisions.  Those that don't allow the neutral territory of ring-out (and other hazards) besides grabs (magic and sub-weapon specials for lesser runs).  The bits where you have to resort to just direct damage aren't all that common, so most of the game will favor GK in a run focused on tactics that are suited to it.

>chipping cases are long

Few and far between.  Often easy, just tedious.  TM3 and Lahkesis are the ones I'd most often cite.

>don't have an alternative

Neither does the default Kratos in the case of the runs you're most concerned with.  Instead you has the refill from the BoO drain due to NG+ (something the NG run will not have at all).  Most of the time it won't be an issue I would contend.

>can use t3 chip through barriers

Taking less time for default Kratos, true.  It's a matter of whether the player can pull off the non-direct damage options that are noted as 'faster'.  Most vets can and find it often easy.  Something like W3 or W5 can prove troublesome in PAIN+ to do without chip for some.  Then it would be 'harder' (for them *as they aren't able to use the 'better' method).

>what caves

Pre-Icarus.  The Lowlands.

>TM2 is a tie

As with TM1, GK can use the sleep spot just the same as the default Kratos.  The higher collisions are a pure advantage for GK with TM2.  The chip of TM1 just takes longer, but is not at all a risk (due to sleep spot and the flank during rage pound making damage dealing a joke in terms of danger to the player or demand on skill).  I'd made such tactics while using GK (for GK).

>no safe pattern with Lahkesis or Kraken

Kraken is broken by the semi-sweet spot for the tentacle sore chip (where that applies).  The head takes longer and the 'knobs' too, but they don't become harder.  His recovery would become the issue should one be too slow with the latter two points of attack.  I don't see the knob being an issue when you know what you can do.  The head sore is only dangerous due to needing to be careful as you come in with glides (either favoring a safe side when you spot an attack or air tricking to deal with otherwise unavoidable damage).  RNG (randon number generator) is a small factor.

Lahkesis can be traded with at length for S1P1 and S1P2 (avoiding the dive) if not baiting her melee string and punishing with t3 time and again.  She's very predictable (easy to control).  S2 is where she can pull nonsense like her staff toss.  Due to being stuck with just the blades and their inability to lock her, that becomes harder for both runs.  Because GK takes longer, it suffers the issue more than the normal run.  That would make it harder (prolonged exposure to nonsense).

NOTE: If boss drops were 'orb' based post-fight rather than full refills, that would be a big difference maker in favor of the regular run (making GKPAIN+ quite a bit harder on the Recovery front where it already drags its feet a bit).

>fights allowing the working around of Power %

Most of them.  Many of which allow collisions (which favor GK).

>those that don't

Most of those are easy/simple.  Just made longer.  Many vets don't fatigue quickly enough for it to be an issue.  Were the fights more challenging to keep up the level of play for them, then it would be a serious concern.  Lahkesis doesn't really mix us up or have lightning fast attacks.  She's no Alma, Elizabeth, etc.  Of course, that's NG with its sense of how a technical fight should be.  Fast and furious.  The bosses having a good moveset with plenty of options to use on the player, good defenses against your options, often quite fast and Sigma giving them stupid powerful grabs you can barely tell apart from their other attacks (and they're fast too).  Having to pull off a fight for twice the amount of time while it actually is demanding on the player's focus...that would be draining.  GoW fights don't tend to be like that with any one single target.  Just how it is.  So GoW tosses many foes at you at times to compensate for this.

>suicide

How's that?

>why use it

Limit his options and react via punishment (not mindless aggression like a berserker).  No stress until the gliding bit (if any at all).

>another suicide

One need only trick or evade the dive.  It's easy to spot.  GoW doesn't give it hyper speed like NG or God Hand (maybe DMC would pull something like this...maybe).

>could be harder

That's a matter of player execution.

>if they aren't going your way

Why wait for that to be the case?  Just go to the sleep spot, get on the rope, leap off, air OS them into each other (both dead), get in and chip TM2 from its flank (favors Default).  For GK, put it to sleep, wake it up (rage pounds) and get in the collisions (often with alt.OH rather than the less safe OH or air OS).

>much faster

Certainly less demanding of skill.  I don't know about faster.  Perhaps if you often get both primary hits of t3 to land.

>wasting time

You can work up towards t3 with impunity while outside the range of his breath or slam/pound.  After he uses the latter (during the breath as well), you can attack completely freely.  During S2, the only concern is the possibility of a glitch stab from an invisibile tentacle.

>not really required of the run

True.  That just makes GKPAIN+ all the easier for not forcing it.

NOTE: Chipping fights tend to be simple one-on-one cases.  Fights that allow non-direct damage means (favoring GK if not nuetral) are the majority.  More of the game is in the favor of GK.  More of the 'hard' fights are made easier by collisions.  Tranny has the small matter of a double edged sword.  That's about the extent of one's concern with backlash.

SBK: >pretty weak

Base damage on VH (default or with GK) are pathetic compared to their collision options for either attire.  Grab damage is pretty hefty too (aside from working around this with petrification, other hazards, magic, etc.).

>aren't many where non-direct damage options aren't an option

Too right.

>they apply for most harder fights

This meaning that the 'harder fights' are not really the 'boss' fights (though some of those do have collisions too).

>different

I'd say that GKPAIN+ is easier for being a win/lose fast case.  Without the checkpoint exploit, it would possibly prove more troublesome by virtue of having to waste time to get back there if one stray full collision touches the Tranny.

>ER is noticably easier

Though we lack ring-outs, the other non-direct damage sources do awesome work even if we can't take advantage of petrification as well as in other, lesser runs.  At least, not as easily.  That's another thing.  If it were somehow much harder to get these non-direct damage approaches to work, then that would be a serious concern to consider.  Often, it just isn't that hard to perform the tactics we use to speed fights along without just wailing on foes directly.

>very safe pattern

With one target for the most part.  Sometimes even areas where the boss has trouble attacking you much if at all.

>Lahkesis

The primary example I'd be citing.  TM3 as a secondary (minus the skip of S1 to save time).

>Zeus w/ BH

Indeed.  Granted, that is not recquired for the run at all.  Not even an 'asterisk'.  Just 'bonus credit' with one's peers.  High fives all-around.

>both rely on collisions

ER certainly goes faster with them, but I wouldn't say they're so much of a crux.  True about Tranny though.  Destiny's Atrium can go quite a bit faster with good use of the Boars, but that can be troublesome with the Tyrants doing what they do.  Handling the Tyrants via chip with GK will take longer (depending on the how much HP you shaved with the collisions *disregarding magic and sub-weapons*), but is simple process of abusing sweet spots or evading their charges for taunts to punish safely (rarely do you see a direct damage approach with a high skill level on display *using tricking in their face even through grabs*).

>W5

GK is more strongly encouraged to make good use of OH for collisions, but runs the risk of the Satyr freezing.  Both GK and Default are equally likely to run into this.  Both can use s6 instead.  If one can manage the Valor approach, GK benefits more.  If not, chipping favors Default.

>hate long fights that take any degree of skill

Luckily, GoW doesn't often mix those two camps.  Hell, it rarely has the second consideration at all.  Most of the times it would have them, it is due to bad design.  Their luck with 'protection' proved bad enough (when does that go well in vidya anyway?) to warrant making the GoWIII case a sham (Pandora can't take damage at all).  The 'chain' on one of the boxes is sort of like a protection mission though.  Just a lot easier than Clones or Tranny.

>when she goes into the air

I believe he refers to S1P2 where she can start using dives and evade leaving 'time bombs'.  That's when you have to be more careful if keeping in her face (versus the t3 chip approach).  S2 is troublesome mostly due to staff toss. The 'floor is hot lava' move isn't a big deal nor are her bolts.

Adel: >not getting too much into values

You know you love it.

>PAIN+ harder than GKPAIN+ overall

Agreed.  It's mostly as such.  Mostly.

>being crazy

That it is.  It's also not the way the run has to be done.  It's just an optional extra.

>compliment each other very nicely

Which is why I argued in favor of the GK runs to get the disctinction of being a NG+ non-default costume run that is recognized on our lists.  It's worthwhile to have as an alternative take.  Much of my SoD work was done with GK.  Most of the SoD stuff revolves around t1 for set-ups that go around Power % and PS which deals direct damage (not concerned with Power %) while also allowing for collisions, ring-out, locks, etc.  It was a run type that highlighted the SoD (in a time where BH was the one getting praises sung about it).  Such were the times.

It's true that there are too many fight favored with GK. Thw whole run isn't jard with DK, there aren't any fights easy, but they aren't hard. At GK, most of the fights are easy but other fights are extremely hard. That's why I consider GKPAIN+ harder than PAIN+.

>you noted two wins for each one

No, one tie, two PAIN+ wins, one GKPAIN+ win.

>too many

Just enough to 'win'.

>aren't any easy fights

Sure there are.  Easy as usual.  Widow Sacrifice 2 is such a case where it doesn't matter which attire you have if you use the instant kill method.  There tends to be such options for both, but GK gets the better end of things when collisions are relied on (which is a lot of the time).  The times for just chip are few and often a singular target that is easy enough to exploit.  For instance, sweet spot abuse with Euryale.

>extremely hard

Can't think of such a case.  More applies to regular PAIN+ for Tranny (if it had more collision damage, that would help).

>ties

Bah.  I already noted (at length) how it isn't a tie.  You choose to ignore a factor you had yourself noted.  This besides the numerous other points made (again).  There aren't going to be many vets that agree with the idea that GKPAIN+ is harder than PAIN+.  GK is NG+ (only benefits over NG *where NER can't even exist*) while having super collisions and lots of ways to work around disadvantages.

>NER can't exist

You say that NER doen't exist just because the health bar is fully extended? You know what I mean.

"You mean I'm not allowed to tell people I'm clean just because I've got STDs?"

You're the victim Wulf. You can say whatever you like.

Deeb: >doesn't exist

>because the HP bar is extended

Yeah.  Also the MP bar.

>know what you mean

Maybe so.  It's as I've noted already though.  NER can't be part of a NG+ in GoWII.  By default, GKTMNUR can't be equal to NUR+.  Just NUR.  The PAIN and PAIN+ are both slightly bastardized for GK due to this alone (aside from other NG+ perks or GK pros and cons with workarounds).

Wulf: Oh, you.

SBK: >the victim

Wulf is grill and Deeb's waifu?

>only in spirit

If it existed, things would be different (also as I've noted).  The 'illusion' of taking more damage wouldn't be as such.  It would be just so.  With 100 units and double damage, you're effectively at 50 units (truly half of what default PAIN+ would have).  This besides the already existing recovery issue.  Combine the two and magic/health become more notable in general as issues.  Still leaves the NG+ perks, but muted (while many of those are lost on PAIN+ anyway).  Grabs would still only deal their normal damage, but the truly lower Health Point total would make them equals rather than leaving GK an edge purely due to how NG+ works.

>should be allowed

Overruled.  We long ago decided our normal runs are just New Game.  You're free to do non-recognized runs as I have.  For instance, NGR+ NUR+ and NBR+ NUR+ for each entry.  This besides focus runs, theme runs, etc.  NG+ (Default) PAIN+ isn't going to happen for the list.  GK only gets the exception for being an interesting alternative for how the stats, NG+, mechanics, etc. work together.

>if NER doesn't exist in GKPAIN+

And it doesn't.  It's a PAIN+ minus one condition in exchange for a 'worse' costume that mostly does away with the perks of being in NG+ on that front (of extensions).  NER is simply a matter of whether or not you have both base (100) units for the bars (MP and HP).  Neither of which hold true for NG+ where you are forced to take MAX no matter what.  It's not like with upgrades where it remembers your having done a NUR (or higher).  It cannot be helped.

Perhaps Wulf could help us out though with his meddling.  Give true NG+ that allows for even the NER aspect to be an option (that or simply make it so that NG can be played with GK and other costumes *less complicated than making sure RotT starts at lvl1, we don't get the BoO drain perk, we start at base extensions, etc.*). 

Assuming they kept roughly the same layout for data, it should now be a simple matter to change the costume on any save regardless of difficulty.

The quick fix would be easiest then.  Just make default Kratos some other costume while otherwise doing New Game.  NG+ adjusted to deny various things it adds is troublesome, I'd say.  Might be easier to just give the weapons/tools in NG.  Maybe with modifications you could even have the relics at the start (something even NG+ doesn't allow).  Wouldn't that just be delightful?  I suppose you could also meddle with the Arena (and Challenges) to pick what costume you use for those too.  GK Challenges and Arena.  Too bad modifications like making each hit of SoD cause Altering (like AS does), multiple altering per slash, etc. would prove a bit too complicated, I'm sure.  Giving BH the evade back (for the Hell of it), returning block to the Blades during RotT, denying the RotT moveset to the Blades (while rage is active), always having the RotT moveset for the Blades, etc.  Plenty of silliness one could request.  Best to start simple.  GK in NG.  A true GKPAIN+.

The things that can potentially be stored in a saved game are getting my focus first.  Anything that changes fundamental game logic would be neat, but be complicated and have less "mass appeal" as it were.

I can send anybody a saved game for them to use.  I'd be surprised if 0.1% of PS3 owners could put to use anything else I figure out.

You said it yourslef GMG, the NG+ perk is muted so it's no longer NG+.

>NG GK

It would be much harder than PAIN+(no disscusion).

>can send anybody

Sorry, would you make it more clear?

I send a saved game.

People copy it to their PS3.

They start the game and choose "Load".

Wulf: >neat, but complicated

Of course.

>priority

Noted.

Deeb: >said it

Yes.  I said that if one could arrange for GK to truly have only base units, the major issue of not having NER in NG+ would mostly attend to this illusion of more damage.  Being that this is not the case, it is up to Wulf to save the day.

>much harder than PAIN+

>no discussion

No, discussion would still be open.  If one isn't taking hits much if at all anyway, it's a matter of what most fights are about (which is still tactics favoring GK by working around the Power weakness and often working with the inverse of Armor % *collisions*).  It just wouldn't be so one-sided as with the real (NG+) GKPAIN+ vs PAIN+ (NG).

Rather than there being no discussion like there need not really be for what the topic concerns, there would be sufficient closing of the gap to say GKPAIN+ gives it a run for its money. Being that this is not the case, most all of the vets will favor the argument that GKPAIN+ is easier than PAIN overall.  Being able to take less damage and having a smaller magic pool would mean little to higher level players.  For a lesser challenge runner in GKTMNUR (for their first time), a NG version would be quite a bit less forgiving than the NG+ we work with.

>Wulf

So you could edit the AoF and send it to me, for example. I want ta make a video for collision testing with GK before doing GKPAIN+ so that in case any noob watched my video and claimed that it isn't Titan because of the storng collisions, I will have my proof.

>GMG

There will be no disscusion, it will be like playing the game at PAIN+ with half of the non-upgraded health and since recovery with GK is very weak so it will be the hardest run in GoW.

>collision testing for recording regarding GK's damage perk

You could just do a video explaining the system.  Normal at 10/5 (full/half).  Damage is inverse of Armor %.  Normal being 100%.  Easy is 200%, so half damage gives you 5/2.5 for collisions.  Hard is 40% (2.5x), so you get 25/12.5.  VH is 20% (5x) for 50/25.  GK is a costume with 50% Armor.  50% (half) of 20% (5x) is 10% (10x damage to us and 10x damage collisions).  That means GK on VH would be 100/50.

One can make a graph for all possible combinations.  This besides 'rage' (RotT) drastically reducing (by some weird value I don't remember offhand *it should be in the .doc at alt.TUGOWU*) collisions via increased Armor %.  Special cases like 360 toss with special damage besides the actual collision (which can miss) and the Sentry toss that has the same sort of special note (along with needing a good amount of range or an obstruction to keep the Sentry *our agent* pressed against the victim *target*).

After explaining all that, you can link people to your video while rubbing in how dumb they are for questioning the video.  If the question of enemy HP comes up or damage values of attacks, only the former matters for the concern of collisions and one should already have sense enough to realize they're seeing super strong collisions only where Armor % is very low...and should know the difference in feeling between needing X amount or Y amount to kill a given target.  They are, afterall, the ones noting that the collisions are 'too strong for VH', yeah?  That should be exploitable wording to use against them.  They did it to themselves by saying that.

>no discussion

There still will be.  Just won't be one-sided as with the real topic's focus (NG+ GKPAIN+ vs NG PAIN+).  I trust you've come to accept the assessment of your peers on that matter.  As for this new one (NG GKPAIN+ vs NG PAIN+), the argument would be that (as SBK and I have noted), our tactics for PAIN+ largely revolve around things neutral to both that favor GK (by defusing his weakness *Power %*).  Even better, he has 2x collision damage which mean much more than having 2x the Power advantage for our base Blades.

The recovery issue would still be there, but the Armor issue would be new (where before it favored GK due to grabs and the higher total).  The only discounting to be done of that is to note vets don't tend to take a lot of hits, but for a less experienced/capable runner, it would be troublesome for that noted long stretch without healing (aside from the death exploit helping to neutralize that too).

Being so much less forgiving would certainly make the NG GKPAIN+ harder in the Armor/Recovery regard (giving it an edge in the discussion it lacks otherwise).  Power would still not be a big deal outside TM3 and Lahkesis where the chip does take a long while.  The high collisions just mean more.  EXP is a non-issue.

Having less MP would mean more for comparing a GKTMNUR+ (NG hack would be required to make this a possible run type) to NUR+.  MP for GKPAIN+ in a NG set-up would be a factor only with Theseus (lots of Minotaur Waves to kill).  That would be troublesome.  As things actually are, GKTMNUR compared to NUR+ is a clear case (as SBK has noted).  GKTMNUR has to be compared to NUR to make it 'even standing'.  This is, again, due ot the lack of NER as an option.  When actually even, it's harder in a few places and easier in most others.  Were one to have GKTMNUR+ in NG+ (by taking away extensions and changing nothing else), the NG+ perks would still be very useful for the otherwise unchanged run (when compared to NUR+).  A true NG run with GK as a NUR+ would lack the BoO drain refill, option of other subs during BoO sections, having various tools early, RotT starting at lvl2, etc.

Most of this new discussion will depend on Wulf's ability to make it an option where it hasn't been in the past.  That aside, it's as I've noted.  Even with the hypothetical NG GKPAIN+, it is up for discussion despite the gap being closed and seemingly more in favor of PAIN+ being the easier of the two (due to being able to take more damage and recover better for sloppy play while not taking so long for direct damage chip *both having the same tactics for most fights with GK having the edge offensively where collisions factor...which is most of the time*).  As you can see, there is a discussion to be had still for even this new scenario.  It's just that the old one is well and settled with GKPAIN+ found to be the easier of the two.  When the time comes for this new case of NG GKPAIN+ vs NG PAIN+, then we can playtest what we believe to be so respectively, yes?

>hardest run in GoW

I don't know about all that.  It requires a hack to exist.  One can take things further in that regard.  Without it, we can consider other non-recognized runs.  Piling on restrictions is an obvious (and silly) place to start.  NGR+ NBR+ PAIN+ with even more conditions (some bad costume, single segment/no damage, etc.).  It's just that it would make for a very punishing run for any mistakes made while giving you a longer period of time to make them (and rewarding non-Power % means *especially collisions* where an option *most of the game*).

>explanation

That will get them down for sure.

>vets don't get hit too much

But it's like playing with 2/3 hits for the whole game.

>requires a hack to exist

That's why I said 'would'. Also I believe Wulf will be here for service.

>down for sure

Not an absolute end to their nonsense, but it certainly helps to have something like that to work with.  Explaining how spells, grabs and some other sources aren't altered by Power % can help too.  This besides enemy grabs not scaling with our Armor %.

>it's like playing with two-three hits

Where you can still death exploit around recovery (aside from boss refills) and take hits at all.  It's not a No Damage (or No Death) run.  Most fights have generous checkpoints and don't last very long.  ER is where a slip-up could cost a lot of time, but collisions speed up the GK side of things considerably if you can manage them (versus needing t0/t3 chip).  Tranny goes fast either way (win or lose) and the checkpoint exploit helps to take out the W1 and W2 redo in the equation.

If it was 'No Damage', both GK and default would be on equal standing for recovery and armor (making it an non-issue).  That just leaves Power % (which is mostly worked around while collisions benefit GK *just the matter of Lahkesis and TM3 as notable areas of chipping though the Blades phases of Zeus are slow t0/t3 chip too*).  As stated, a NG GKPAIN+ would have the already noted Recovery issue while taking the lead with Armor being a real issue now.  It just wouldn't impact the opinon of seasoned vets much.  More the newcomers who are likely to slip up more.

>will be here for service

I should like to think so.  I'd very much like to try some NG+ in GoW1 (most especially a Tycoonius PAIN and DB PAIN *for the two extremes they offer*), NG GKPAIN+ and some other otherwise impossible things that should already be features of the game by design.  It seems to be the trickiest thing of all to manage, but I'd be very pleased to even see some run work with BotG outside the Ares2 fight.  It may handle mostly like Artemis (more infinites, different specials, air t1 does no damage, probably can't jump with it and might get stuck in a mode without a lot of important options to progress), but the damage is absurd.  A true direct damage option for a NUR.  In vanilla VH, using RotG (lvl2 BoC) would probably be best spent on direct attacks with BotG for a 2x damage bonus.  That sort of power would put us WAY over the top.  As boring as ultimate power can be, the novelty would be enough for one playthrough, wouldn't you agree?  Final phase of Pandora's Guardian?  I doubt his HP could handle a RotG Hades' Gift fully charged (landing all four hits).  Easy Tycoonius/God Armor with BotG, Ares2 can be one-shot from the base HP of 1,500 (all four hits would cause 1,600 damage).  With the sort of power in question, damage kills of Desert Sirens and Medusa (don't do this though) wouldn't take so long (especially not with RotG, some stronger costume and easy).

>death exploit

I don't like using it, that's why when I die more than two or three times, I restart from the last checkpoint when I see Kratos falling(doesn't work on GoWIII).

> very much like to try some NG+ in GoW1

 You still have my email?  Backup and send me your current GoW1 save and I'll modify it to send it back.  Less hassle that way than showing you how to resign my save to work on yours.

Let me know what parameters you'd like for each run, I can set up a different one in each save slot if you'd like.

Deeb: >don't like using it

Nor do I.  But then, I also don't like skipping fights.  Tid doesn't like using ring-outs.  Shin doesn't like taking damage.  Not even a fan of using some of his options (like magic) where he's allowed to (making psuedo-PAINs of an otherwise NUR+).  Vets sometimes have their particular feelings about options available to them.

>die a few times and restart

For me, the damage is already done.  If I had less than full HP at the checkpoint, I won't allow death (just restart upon seeing death).

>doesn't work in GoWIII

Have to anticipate it early.  Especially for the ring-outs.  That's a very important area of consideration for me.  I find that to be a highly offensive change that might be completely uninteresting to other players.  It bothers me quite a bit to not be able to restart and avoid the death exploit.  I don't mind trying again.  I don't want their charity.

Wulf: >have email

Let me check. *checks* I have one with hotmail, yeah.

>back-up and send current GoW1 save

I'll have to look through it for one I no longer want.  I imagine I'll use one belonging to one of my friends who never finished the game (casuals get tired of doing the same things rather quickly).

>parameters

The obvious one would just be having all things from the earlier save point.  AB would be something for a different save.  BotG just seems like a pipe dream.  That would leave two saves I believe.  NG VH DB and NG VH Tyco would be two others that would interest me.  A shame there isn't an extra slot to keep for when I just want to have one ot run on without modifications (when the time comes that I'm ready to go at the Clones again).  I suppose that's what saving back-ups would be for though.

It's nothing I'm in a hurry for though.  The instant I get involved with a game again could prove troublesome for my ability to work off the backlog and get to evaluations.  I've still got to concern myself with exercise, a bit more diet, renewal of licenses (and an upgrade), etc. 

>Wulf

So are you using PS3 resigner or something like that? Do you edit the patch itself? Anyway, I would be thankful if you could edit my file for a GK AoF.

>GK AotF

Certainly an agreeable request, but I don't know if he's managed changes to the Arena yet.

Haven't managed any changes to GoW2 yet.

Deeb, I've PM'd you my email address.  Send me your save and I'll see if my GoW1 tinkering will apply to GoW2 easy enough.

>send me your save file

I'll do it, thank you.

Got the file and loaded it up.  GoW2 looks like it will be easy enough to figure out, but they changed enough that the costume data isn't stored in the exact same spot.

I'm gonna give GoW1 some more focus before getting to this.

Wulf: >changes to GoWII

All good things come with time.

>GoWII quick tinkering

Going straight for the gusto, are you?

>easy enough to figure

Same engine, so I should hope so.

>small changes

Bah.

>more focus

Suits me.

Deeb: >no hurry

My position is the same.

>GoW1

Simple stuff.  A file with AB at the start, one with true NG+ (all weapons/spells at the start), a VH NG with Tycoonius and another with Dairy Bastard.  If he could figure out BotG, I'd be wanting that too (likely for a God Armor Easy run with one-shots abound).

>aside from NG+

The things already noted (minus the NG+).  I'll get to other threads after work.