Why we believe what we believe (or lack thereof)

Well, we have a smattering of religious and secular traditions here, so let's discuss why we believe what we do. I want to this to be different from the introduction topic as this will be more in depth, and hopefully we can get a nice (FRIENDLY) critique of each others thoughts and beliefs going.

Well, to start it off, I was mostly an apathetic agnostic for the most part up until the beginning of my 8th grade year, which is where all the existential questions started coming in: "Why are we here", "What's the purpose", "Who created us", and the like. I suppose such questions had an extremely powerful effect on me, as I spent many of my nights in near insomnia just thinking about them. It made me read into many faith's and beliefs, and I made the spiritual journey that G.K. Chesterton spoke of: "There are two ways of getting home ,and one of them is to stay there. The other is to walk round the whole world till we come back to the same place."

To quote another man: "I came into Christianity kicking and screaming."

I don't want to give a systematic rundown of my beliefs, for that would take a while, but hopefully we can get a lively discussion going.

Up until 7 years ago I was a Roman Catholic. I was a 'god-fearing' Christian who whole heartedly followed Catholic teaching. I could say the first signs of my doubt in religion was reading about the massacres god commits in the bible, I felt it seemed so strange that God could be so cruel. I also had doubts about the trinity and the divinity of Jesus.

But I still carried on with religion but as I described in member introductions, I had a sudden moment in my life where I felt religion was so wrong and manipulative that I ended up going against my family in order that my religion's integrity stayed intact. After that it was like a smokescreen vanished. I could see the falsity, the lies and the hipocrisy of religion. I realised I don't need to believe in some God or a two thousand year old book to lead my life in a moral way. I learnt that just do what you feel is right and never let anyone lie to you and trick you. Stay true to yourself.

I was a "Christian" until about 16 or 17 then I started thinking on my own a bit to much, about everything. After several years of reading the Bible, Quran, and other religious works I went with what my mind told me, there is now God. Now 13 years or so later I haven't seen or felt anything to make me believe otherwise. My kids birth, deaths, joys of life, nothing has helped me believe in a higher power. I still go to church weekly, my wife is a Christian, and I enjoy it, mainly for the arguments it poses in my head. At this point after all the conversations and studying I've done it would take God standing in front of me, slapping me in the face to believe.btaylor2404

How do you go to Church? I know I couldn't do it, it'd piss me off too much at the ignorance and how dumb it all sounds if you think about anything they are saying or implying. So, your kid is being raised Christian?

[QUOTE="btaylor2404"]I was a "Christian" until about 16 or 17 then I started thinking on my own a bit to much, about everything. After several years of reading the Bible, Quran, and other religious works I went with what my mind told me, there is now God. Now 13 years or so later I haven't seen or felt anything to make me believe otherwise. My kids birth, deaths, joys of life, nothing has helped me believe in a higher power. I still go to church weekly, my wife is a Christian, and I enjoy it, mainly for the arguments it poses in my head. At this point after all the conversations and studying I've done it would take God standing in front of me, slapping me in the face to believe.SimpJee

How do you go to Church? I know I couldn't do it, it'd piss me off too much at the ignorance and how dumb it all sounds if you think about anything they are saying or implying. So, your kid is being raised Christian?

Well it's a fairly progressive church, both my pastors know my stance, so I'm not one of their blind flock. And when they get into homosexuality or the age of the Earth it does piss me off, I go outside and smoke. Also we have 3 kids and it's important to my wife, therefore important to me. My children are being raised Christian in the loosest of terms, but when they are old enough we'll have "the talk". My 14 year old step son has already brought up many common sense questions about God not making any sense. I try to keep my thoughts to myself and let him talk it out and figure it out, but as smart as he is, I'd say he's borderline Atheist right now. Long story short, I love and respect my wife and it makes her happy, so what's 1 hour a week, when the preachers know my stance and I'm not in the "flock".

Well it's a fairly progressive church, both my pastors know my stance, so I'm not one of their blind flock. And when they get into homosexuality or the age of the Earth it does piss me off, I go outside and smoke. Also we have 3 kids and it's important to my wife, therefore important to me. My children are being raised Christian in the loosest of terms, but when they are old enough we'll have "the talk". My 14 year old step son has already brought up many common sense questions about God not making any sense. I try to keep my thoughts to myself and let him talk it out and figure it out, but as smart as he is, I'd say he's borderline Atheist right now. Long story short, I love and respect my wife and it makes her happy, so what's 1 hour a week, when the preachers know my stance and I'm not in the "flock".

btaylor2404

Ok thanks. I was just wondering as I've been thinking about what I'm going to do when I have kids, I know the woman I marry or have children with will not be Christian, but what do we do with our kids as far as explaining to them what the majority of children and other people believe? I don't want my kids to be intolerant to Christians or any religion though, so it's going to be tough I'd imagine.

[QUOTE="btaylor2404"]

Well it's a fairly progressive church, both my pastors know my stance, so I'm not one of their blind flock. And when they get into homosexuality or the age of the Earth it does piss me off, I go outside and smoke. Also we have 3 kids and it's important to my wife, therefore important to me. My children are being raised Christian in the loosest of terms, but when they are old enough we'll have "the talk". My 14 year old step son has already brought up many common sense questions about God not making any sense. I try to keep my thoughts to myself and let him talk it out and figure it out, but as smart as he is, I'd say he's borderline Atheist right now. Long story short, I love and respect my wife and it makes her happy, so what's 1 hour a week, when the preachers know my stance and I'm not in the "flock".

SimpJee

Ok thanks. I was just wondering as I've been thinking about what I'm going to do when I have kids, I know the woman I marry or have children with will not be Christian, but what do we do with our kids as far as explaining to them what the majority of children and other people believe? I don't want my kids to be intolerant to Christians or any religion though, so it's going to be tough I'd imagine.

It is at times, my twins are only 15 months old so I don't worry about them yet. But I've lived with my stepson since he was 3, so he kinda follows everything I say, and I have to watch it sometimes. When he brought up good points for their being no God the other day, I just said those were good points, read up on it some more. But I've always taught him to think for himself and challenge the norm so I'm not overly surprised. On your topic an easy one for me has always been to tell my kids that the only difference between them and any other child is plain luck, so treat everyone the same. Has worked for me, and so far for them.

It is at times, my twins are only 15 months old so I don't worry about them yet. But I've lived with my stepson since he was 3, so he kinda follows everything I say, and I have to watch it sometimes. When he brought up good points for their being no God the other day, I just said those were good points, read up on it some more. But I've always taught him to think for himself and challenge the norm so I'm not overly surprised. On your topic an easy one for me has always been to tell my kids that the only difference between them and any other child is plain luck, so treat everyone the same. Has worked for me, and so far for them.

btaylor2404

Makes sense. I'm leaning towards what you mentioned, letting them come to their own conclusions. Again as you said tell them to think for themselves, but use logic and reason in their decision process. I like the luck comment, because it is true. Have you noticed that since we've became atheists, more things rely on luck now? Haha.

I can't say that I'm a big fan of the entire atheist position. I think it's rather premature to say that there isn't a god, but just as so, the same argument could be made for the theist position, and they have the burden of proof. I was baptized as a Christian not too long ago during a time when I was studying the Bible. After finishing the Bible, I realized that there was a lot of issues of which I didn't agree with the Bible, so as a result, I "invented" interpretations just to get a satisfiable answer. I respect the concept of a god too much to invent him, so I hastily became an atheist. A year later, I've slowly shifted towards agnosticism simply because I was not fond of the extremism of Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens. They're brilliant men, but they should stick to their jobs and not theology.

I disagree with a lot of what some, if not all, of what religion has to say, but I don't oppose it. I think religion goes uncredited for a lot of good deeds in the eyes of atheists and agnostics. I hope that we never become ignorant towards other people's beliefs. I never plan on raising my children as agnostic. It'll simply be their instinct that will dicate their beliefs.

Ah Nihilism where you go when there nothing to left believe in. I cant remember who quote that was but it pretty much fits me well. I researched the gambit of religions and cults out there. Nothing interested me from what I read. Then came upon some Atheists throwing the word Nihilism around like its curse word. So the natural rebel inside of me nudged me on to read about it. That led me to Nietzsche which led to some other interesting philosophical inquiries. Unfortunately Nihilism was slightly to acidic for my human pallet so I diluted it with some Existentialism (who says you cant learn from homeopathy). Cant say I recommend this concoction to any else but it's a good operating system for me:D.

I can't say that I'm a big fan of the entire atheist position. I think it's rather premature to say that there isn't a god

Genetic_Code

Why do you say that? If there is no evidence of something do you think it's premature not to believe in it as well?

Why do you say that? If there is no evidence of something do you think it's premature not to believe in it as well?

SimpJee

There is no evidence of extraterrestial life (although there is evidence for the capacity of extraterrestial life, the two should not be confused). Likewise, a lack of evidence =/= proof it doesn't exist.

Also, it is infinitely possible to prove a god doesn't exist. We can search all of the celestial shore, but if we fail to fully explore one planet, one that could be the host of god, then we have failed in reasoning. In addition, I think that there might be a "force" or some extraterrestial life that we might find that we may define as god, much like is the case with the recently found unicorn, which as you know, is just a deer.

I tend to think of human behaviour in terms of function and benefit. Why does behaviour x occur and what does that imply about the belief behind it.

All religions promote the golden rule of altruism as a path to purity and the afterlife- the classic "do unto others as you would have others do unto you" line is found in everything from Christianity to Scientology. Altruism is an adaptive form of behaviour for the human species and so religion has a kind of memetic natural selection quality which helps it survive in the minds of generation after generation of humans.

Religion is around therefore because it is useful, not because the stories behind it are true in any way, shape or form.

[QUOTE="SimpJee"]

Why do you say that? If there is no evidence of something do you think it's premature not to believe in it as well?

Genetic_Code

There is no evidence of extraterrestial life (although there is evidence for the capacity of extraterrestial life, the two should not be confused). Likewise, a lack of evidence =/= proof it doesn't exist.

It's enough proof for me to not include it in my understanding of reality.

It's enough proof for me to not include it in my understanding of reality.

SimpJee

I'll admit that my argument was there is sort of lacking because I think it's foolish to think that there are not aliens.

[QUOTE="SimpJee"]

It's enough proof for me to not include it in my understanding of reality.

Genetic_Code

I'll admit that my argument was there is sort of lacking because I think it's foolish to think that there are not aliens.

I don't know about foolish, like I say there is no evidence therefore I don't include it in my view of reality. This doesn't mean that I think aliens are not out there, it's just I don't include them in my reasoning for doing anything I do in my life. It's hard for me to describe the "view of reality" thing, do you get what I mean?

I don't know about foolish, like I say there is no evidence therefore I don't include it in my view of reality. This doesn't mean that I think aliens are not out there, it's just I don't include them in my reasoning for doing anything I do in my life. It's hard for me to describe the "view of reality" thing, do you get what I mean?

SimpJee

Sort of, yet not at all, but isn't that the point that we don't know?

This is what religions have always been used for, to manipulate people into groups and fight the others who don't believe in the same religion. I think religions are the most sophisticated weapons the world has ever seen, a thing that can control humans. A lot of people have died in the name of religions but at the same time the same religions have benefitted others.

Most people don't want to die but since they have to it's comforting to have faith in the belief that there is an afterlife. Those who believe in religion do it because they were brought up in a religious environment and later in life it is tough on them to just discard the idea that there is no such thing as god and that all he/she has believed till now is false. Whereas I just embrace the facts. It's not belief or lack of belief in my case, but simple logics and facts that makes sense to me. I don't know if there is anything supernatural in this universe but I'm sure there is nothing supernatural about any religion that I've heard of.

This is what religions have always been used for, to manipulate people into groups and fight the others who don't believe in the same religion. I think religions are the most sophisticated weapons the world has ever seen, a thing that can control humans. A lot of people have died in the name of religions but at the same time the same religions have benefitted others.

7guns

Religion is often a drive for positive social change.

I grew up in a household with non practicing Christians, who don't talk about religion at all (I doubt either one has picked up a Bible in a decade). They are great people, but I cannot say that my spirituality is from my parents. Possibly due to the actions they commit, but not because of their faith. My faith came after a deep existential struggle. In fact, it is summed up with this quote:

"My hosanna is born of a furnace of doubt."- Fyodor Dostoyevsky

[QUOTE="7guns"] Most people don't want to die but since they have to it's comforting to have faith in the belief that there is an afterlife. Those who believe in religion do it because they were brought up in a religious environment and later in life it is tough on them to just discard the idea that there is no such thing as god and that all he/she has believed till now is false. Whereas I just embrace the facts. It's not belief or lack of belief in my case, but simple logics and facts that makes sense to me. I don't know if there is anything supernatural in this universe but I'm sure there is nothing supernatural about any religion that I've heard of.

This is what religions have always been used for, to manipulate people into groups and fight the others who don't believe in the same religion. I think religions are the most sophisticated weapons the world has ever seen, a thing that can control humans. A lot of people have died in the name of religions but at the same time the same religions have benefitted others.

STWELCH

Religion is often a drive for positive social change.

I grew up in a household with non practicing Christians, who don't talk about religion at all (I doubt either one has picked up a Bible in a decade). They are great people, but I cannot say that my spirituality is from my parents. Possibly due to the actions they commit, but not because of their faith. My faith came after a deep existential struggle. In fact, it is summed up with this quote:

"My hosanna is born of a furnace of doubt."- Fyodor Dostoyevsky

I agree, religion has its positive effects and I know that from personal experience. But the thing is that I tend to focus more on the negative side of religions than the positive side. That's who I am. I didn't mean to offend you or anyone else. Sorry about that.