There is still a debate here?

What's it been? 2-3 years now we've been in operation and people still haven't gotten how ridiculous the Christian and really most religions are? Ok, I get you can't believe the world was just popped into existence through a reaction based on the theories describing it. But believing in a religion where people rose from the dead, born without having sex, and all kinds of other ridiculous stuff. Seriously?

I don't know about you guys, but I've been done arguing for a while.  If they can't see the absurdity of their own beliefs it's going to be hard to get it through. I'm pretty sure we all have better things to do in this board, like figuring out how to live forever, get to unknown reaches of space to find other life, etc.  

I probably should rephrase this as a topic instead of a rant eh?  How about this, are you as fed up with over wasting time explaining 1+1 to people who think there is that unknown factor that they believe so firmly in that it makes it equal 3? 

What's it been? 2-3 years now we've been in operation and people still haven't gotten how ridiculous the Christian and really most religions are? Ok, I get you can't believe the world was just popped into existence through a reaction based on the theories describing it. But believing in a religion where people rose from the dead, born without having sex, and all kinds of other ridiculous stuff. Seriously?

I don't know about you guys, but I've been done arguing for a while. If they can't see the absurdity of their own beliefs it's going to be hard to get it through. I'm pretty sure we all have better things to do in this board, like figuring out how to live forever, get to unknown reaches of space to find other life, etc.

I probably should rephrase this as a topic instead of a rant eh? How about this, are you as fed up with over wasting time explaining 1+1 to people who think there is that unknown factor that they believe so firmly in that it makes it equal 3?

SimpJee

I've been done a while now too, since I've been checking into the absurdity of my own beliefs. In some ways I more strongly recognise how and why people do believe in a religion.

I've found talking here to be a somewhat useful way of assessing the strengths of my own beliefs against others. But to think I can pursuade people to think "correctly" is perhaps falling into the same "conversionism" trap that religion peddles - (i.e. ensuring others believe like you, rather than exploring what you really do believe.

are you as fed up with over wasting time explaining 1+1 to people who think there is that unknown factor that they believe so firmly in that it makes it equal 3? 

SimpJee

I can see why you might get a bit tired of that sort of argument after a while. Most, nay all, of the theists who post here are not of the ridiculous sort though and I think you'll find a lot of good compelling discussion if you engage them. Some of them even accept the big bang theory!

I must remark that this union was and still is about discussing the claims of religion, even the frustrating and silly ones. If you're done with that sort of thing then you might elect to pass on your officership to someone else. Hopefully you can reaquaint yourself with this place though.

are you as fed up with over wasting time explaining 1+1 to people who think there is that unknown factor that they believe so firmly in that it makes it equal 3? SimpJee

Actually I just realised I didn't even answer the question you posed. No I'm not fed up with discussing logically absurd ideas. I'm right in the middle of one in the Christian Union (great place btw).

I don't know if anyone has ever gotten anything out of anything I've ever said, but I know for a fact that many things I know today I would not have become acquainted with had I not explored things in defense of my position, so in that respect I feel that religious debates with others has been an invaluable part of my life, trivial as it may seem on the surface.

So, no, I'm not fed up.

[QUOTE="SimpJee"]

are you as fed up with over wasting time explaining 1+1 to people who think there is that unknown factor that they believe so firmly in that it makes it equal 3? 

domatron23

I can see why you might get a bit tired of that sort of argument after a while. Most, nay all, of the theists who post here are not of the ridiculous sort though and I think you'll find a lot of good compelling discussion if you engage them. Some of them even accept the big bang theory!

I must remark that this union was and still is about discussing the claims of religion, even the frustrating and silly ones. If you're done with that sort of thing then you might elect to pass on your officership to someone else. Hopefully you can reaquaint yourself with this place though.

If you think there's someone else on more that's more qualified then all the power to you.  I helped create this union thinking it'd be in the vain of the Christian Union where we didn't have to worry about justifying ourselves constantly. I've found other venues for that discussion however, but this has still been a great place to come none the less.

I don't know if anyone has ever gotten anything out of anything I've ever said, but I know for a fact that many things I know today I would not have become acquainted with had I not explored things in defense of my position, so in that respect I feel that religious debates with others has been an invaluable part of my life, trivial as it may seem on the surface.

So, no, I'm not fed up.

GabuEx

I hear you, I felt the same way.  But when it comes to the point where you're hearing the same arguments/responses promise to quit, else you'll find you have wasted valuable time you could have been really studying scientific theory.  Not in the sense to refute the religious, but to think of the ways which the theories could lead humanity.  Else you're just going in circles.   

You know what, they should be the ones looking for ways to explore defense against their position not you.  Arguing with religious is like arguing with a person from the past, and it takes you to that level when you have to go and refute them.  I'm beyond that, time to spend time thinking of ways about what having no gods helping out, no gods hindering things, no gods looking to save anyone means and then figuring out ways to keep on progressing.  I'm thinking about how 3D TV, and Microsoft Natal will lead to better interfaces, along the way to neural interfacing, then from there maybe they figure out how to digitize our memories and therefore consciousness.  That's the stuff I want to discuss with like minded people, not the ones where I have to constantly put on my kid gloves to explain just why I don't have to worry about offending some make believe figure in the sky.

Rant over... 

Well, I mean, if you want to discuss those things... why not discuss them?  No one's preventing you from making threads for that purpose.  I think that we keep debating the same things over again because, let's face it, in "The Atheism Union" there isn't a whole lot to discuss specifically on atheism without contrasting it with theism.  "God Doesn't Exist: Pretty Much Sure or Totally Sure?" doesn't make a terribly interesting conversation.

Well, I mean, if you want to discuss those things... why not discuss them?  No one's preventing you from making threads for that purpose.  I think that we keep debating the same things over again because, let's face it, in "The Atheism Union" there isn't a whole lot to discuss specifically on atheism without contrasting it with theism.  "God Doesn't Exist: Pretty Much Sure or Totally Sure?" doesn't make a terribly interesting conversation.

GabuEx

It hasn't stopped me in the past.  Although, when we started I was under the impression this was a board catering to atheists, not "Debate an Atheist"  I'm just done arguing with them, that's all.

I'll stop by whenever I think of a crazy idea that needs discussion about the impact it will have on society.  I enjoy taking technologies that are out today (and in the close future) and speculating on where they'll take us and what that means as far as impact on our lives, I hope some of you do as well.   

I don't know if anyone has ever gotten anything out of anything I've ever said, but I know for a fact that many things I know today I would not have become acquainted with had I not explored things in defense of my position, so in that respect I feel that religious debates with others has been an invaluable part of my life, trivial as it may seem on the surface.

So, no, I'm not fed up.

GabuEx

I'm going to second this statement to the exact word except I'm one of the perceived-to-be-ignorant ones. :P

Although, when we started I was under the impression this was a board catering to atheists, not "Debate an Atheist"  I'm just done arguing with them, that's all.SimpJee

I quit arguing here for the sole intention of proving I'm right some time ago.  These days I discuss these topics to better learn from you guys and to give a different perspective on various topics (which is obviously a rather different perspective compared to many here :P ).

A bit like what Gabu said. I dont really believe that anyone's mind will be changed. In fact sometimes I am afraid that by their arguments being destroyed, they might become even bitter and/or intransigent.

But the reason why I debate my views is personal. I just feel like defending what I believe in (even if that something isnt specific and is just an idea I have or an opinion or anything else), perhaps because I am insecure about them or because I really cant do it IRL; partially because IRL, speaking, I cant be as articulate as when I am typing.

God knows (lol) how many times I was in OT wanting to raise my hands and just be done with it, but not so much with topics about religion but topics about homosexuality. :P

EDIT: But yeah generally, I am sort of fed up with all this.

enjoy taking technologies that are out today (and in the close future) and speculating on where they'll take us and what that means as far as impact on our lives, I hope some of you do as well.SimpJee

I quit arguing here for the sole intention of proving I'm right some time ago. These days I discuss these topics to better learn from you guys and to give a different perspective on various topics (which is obviously a rather different perspective compared to many here :P ).mindstorm

That's what I always thought this union was about, actually. Discussing various view points in order to gain a better understanding of our own beliefs just as much as the beliefs of others. If I was arguing to try and prove myself right and prove you wrong, then I would in fact be trying to convert you to my way of thinking, which would be a very rude and disrespectful thing to do. I think RA's right that there's a considerable danger of starting to try and "convert" whenever we are trying to prove the other person completely wrong when we argue with someone over religious matters, regardless of which side we're arguing for.ChiliDragon

Indeed but don't get me wrong here.  While my intention is not to prove myself right, I at the least hope my perspective does at the very least show the religious mentality to be at the very least a sensible option.  I have a missionary's heart and wish for all to come to know Christ, I just do not wish to force or manipulate people to come into repentance.  :P

Yes I am fed up of them and the current debate I am having in the christian union will be my last one, it just wastes too much time and my lower temperament for ridiculous arguments gets me moderated as well lolz.

However I do believe that minds are changed through debates on the internet, mine changed and I remember atleast foxhound admitting that internet debates influences his beliefs to an extent. When I used to debate in the dawkins forum as a muslim, I didnt show any signs of defeat when infact I was being deeply affected by the new realities I was discovering and the new ways to think about things. One day I admiited to have become an agnostist but given how strongly I used to come as a muslim it was far too embarassing to continue to post there so I just quit. Who knows how many other people do the same thing of not showing a change?

If you truly expose someone to the other side of the story and even after 1 year they are unchanged then you can be sure that it is a hopeless case. It doesnt mean that the person doesnt possess the IQ to understand how absurd his religion is but he could be limited by the emotional bias he has developed for the religion or he just finds it a far more satisfying reality and may just decide to continue in his delusion.

I have tried alot but I just cant see how it is even an argument anymore whether christianity's or islam's core teachings are true or not. If I wasnt raised in a fundamentalist muslim family and didnt live in a censored muslim world, I am sure I would have become an atheist even during my late teens.

And no I dont think it's necessarily "what makes sense to you doesnt make any to me" kinda relative thing here because many people dont decide their religious beliefs on what makes most "sense". I would bet that for 100 years children wont be labelled as belonging to a religion and religious child abuse wont happen(like a 7 year old being forced to offer salat) and the majority of the world would become non-religious.

I can understand the intellectual relativity thing when it comes to politics and morality but not so much with religion.

I don't try to convince people to convert. One of the biggest misconceptions on the OT board is that we're evangelists who try to save people from their corrupt religions; that's why there are always whiners in the first few pages in religion threads. I share ideas, but I don't try to bring people to becoming an atheist. Even if someone thinks I'm some sort of genius, they should not agree with me on everything because that's just as foolish as blindly disagreeing.

The claim that theism, or religion in general is "absurd" is absurd. A while ago (several years) I used to share this similar stance, but then I started getting into the academic study of religion and found much merit among religious belief, especially when it is a function of a non-hierarchical community. As a historical source, religion is often pretty lacking, but when it comes to philosophical ideas and concepts, it is a gold mine.

EDIT: And honestly, I haven't tried to "refute" theism in years. The best discussions are the ones we have in here quite often, where a religious concept is presented, and our take on it is discussed, i.e. all of dracula_16's threads. He makes the best threads. :3foxhound_fox

Aww. That made me feel warm and fuzzy. Thank you for that. :)

I don't try to convince people to convert. One of the biggest misconceptions on the OT board is that we're evangelists who try to save people from their corrupt religionsdracula_16

I'm going to second this statement to the exact word except I'm one of the perceived-to-be-ignorant ones. :Pmindstorm

What do you mean by that?  I believe in God; that means I'm just as ignorant as you. :P

[QUOTE="mindstorm"]I'm going to second this statement to the exact word except I'm one of the perceived-to-be-ignorant ones. :PGabuEx

What do you mean by that?  I believe in God; that means I'm just as ignorant as you. :P

Indeed. I wasn't trying to say that you yourself did not believe in "ignorant matters."

Wait, does my agreeing with you mean I'm calling you ignorant? Don't mod me! :shock: :P

[...] I remember atleast foxhound admitting that internet debates influences his beliefs to an extent.[...] Gambler_3

It hasn't even been two years. This union was created in August of 2008. Anyway, the reason why people maintain ridiculous beliefs is because they were taught to think that way and it gives them hope. They can't reconicile an atheistic view of society because it removes God as the purpose to everything, which explains a lot if you imagine it to. For example, the way genitilia is formed could mean that God created it that way for the purpose of procreating. Yet, there's no proof that God created it and if he did, if it was for that purpose or any purpose at all. There's no proof contradicting it either, unless you want to use the imperfection of genitilia and their ability to transmit STDs or genetilia that was defected from before birth as an argument similar in vain to the problem of evil. Speaking of which, I think the problem of evil wipes out any doubt that there is a perfect altruistic God, although "perfect" and "altruistic" are contradictions. I'll have to create a topic about whether or not altruism is good sometime. I do believe that if monotheists were to define altruism as evil, it would make a good argument for God, but it would wipe out practically any monotheistic religion, since they all preach altruism.

Still though, believing in God is worthy of a debate. I'm amazed that there are people who believe that Noah placed two of every unclean beast and seven of every clean beast in one boat. I'm also amazed that people believe that prayer alone can heal someone.

Same here; debating just isn't fun these days. I would make a topic about Islam, but I think I would just come off as preachy.ghoklebutter

Please do. Islam is an interesting subject and you're a very intelligent poster.

[QUOTE="ghoklebutter"]Same here; debating just isn't fun these days. I would make a topic about Islam, but I think I would just come off as preachy.Genetic_Code

Please do. Islam is an interesting subject and you're a very intelligent poster.

My point is that he already has doubts about his religion, encouraging him to defend it really isnt a very good thing just to bring in some good discussion. It's just not right that a 15 year old would defend his "parents" religion just because he happened to be their child, it should absolutely be discouraged. Once hez an adult and continues to be a muslim then more power to him.

[QUOTE="Genetic_Code"]

[QUOTE="ghoklebutter"]Same here; debating just isn't fun these days. I would make a topic about Islam, but I think I would just come off as preachy.Gambler_3

Please do. Islam is an interesting subject and you're a very intelligent poster.

My point is that he already has doubts about his religion, encouraging him to defend it really isnt a very good thing just to bring in some good discussion. It's just not right that a 15 year old would defend his "parents" religion just because he happened to be their child, it should absolutely be discouraged. Once hez an adult and continues to be a muslim then more power to him.

I think it was being confronted about my faith at a younger age that most helped me mature as a believer actually.  Being 15 and having an atheist mock me, Mormon criticize my beliefs, and Jehovah's Witness make me question what I believe caused me to look into my belief farther.  If I had not be confronted with various issues I'm not sure I'd be who I am today.

I say all of this with the assumption that religious people, myself included, should not be kept comfortable.  However, this is not to say I'd push young believer into an oncoming train (metaphorically speaking). :P

[QUOTE="Gambler_3"][QUOTE="Genetic_Code"]

[QUOTE="ghoklebutter"]Same here; debating just isn't fun these days. I would make a topic about Islam, but I think I would just come off as preachy.mindstorm

Please do. Islam is an interesting subject and you're a very intelligent poster.

My point is that he already has doubts about his religion, encouraging him to defend it really isnt a very good thing just to bring in some good discussion. It's just not right that a 15 year old would defend his "parents" religion just because he happened to be their child, it should absolutely be discouraged. Once hez an adult and continues to be a muslim then more power to him.

I think it was being confronted about my faith at a younger age that most helped me mature as a believer actually.  Being 15 and having an atheist mock me, Mormon criticize my beliefs, and Jehovah's Witness make me question what I believe caused me to look into my belief farther.  If I had not be confronted with various issues I'm not sure I'd be who I am today.

I say all of this with the assumption that religious people, myself included, should not be kept comfortable.  However, this is not to say I'd push young believer into an oncoming train (metaphorically speaking). :P

[QUOTE="mindstorm"][QUOTE="Gambler_3"][QUOTE="Genetic_Code"]

[QUOTE="ghoklebutter"]Same here; debating just isn't fun these days. I would make a topic about Islam, but I think I would just come off as preachy.Gambler_3

Please do. Islam is an interesting subject and you're a very intelligent poster.

My point is that he already has doubts about his religion, encouraging him to defend it really isnt a very good thing just to bring in some good discussion. It's just not right that a 15 year old would defend his "parents" religion just because he happened to be their child, it should absolutely be discouraged. Once hez an adult and continues to be a muslim then more power to him.

I think it was being confronted about my faith at a younger age that most helped me mature as a believer actually. Being 15 and having an atheist mock me, Mormon criticize my beliefs, and Jehovah's Witness make me question what I believe caused me to look into my belief farther. If I had not be confronted with various issues I'm not sure I'd be who I am today.

I say all of this with the assumption that religious people, myself included, should not be kept comfortable. However, this is not to say I'd push young believer into an oncoming train (metaphorically speaking). :P

I find it amazing that you pull some sort of seniority over GB in demeaning his beliefs. In my view, GB came here testing the faith his parents and community taught him. Since being here, he's been forced to defend (vigourously at times) his prior beliefs with others who are far more confident and prepared than him.

For example, I remember the "Aisha" debate, where some new guests appeared here and GB fended them off admirably. I'm not sure that your age limit about knowing things is true, or an exposure to life, since many religious folk are both old and experienced. I have sensed a change in GB's views and adherancy at least to his prior concepts of Islam (although I could be worong here).

I think its more about the sort of experiences you have, what you do and the way you think. For example, Mindstorm - you seem to have responded to criticism and doubt over your beliefs by burying yourself more deeply in them.

The thing is that the situation of GB and many 15 year old muslims is very unfair, when you have been indoctrinated into a religion then there is no freakin way you'll abandon it being a 15 year old cuz it takes time to "get out" of it, so calling a 15 year old a muslim is kinda unfair dont you think? I guess it all depends on if you believe that children should have a religion or not, I certainly dont.

GB already says openly he doubts his religion so I atleast would not call him a muslim until a couple of years atleast. Older people who continue to be religious choose to do so, GB not so much since he didnt really choose much until recently and should be given more time before being labelled as anything.

Even richard dawkins was a strong christian at the age of 15, I was a strong muslim at the age of 15 and I would think most non-religious intellectuals in history continued to follow their parents religion until atleast that age provided they were indoctrinated.

Besides, a 15 year old muslim raised in the US is probably a lot more exposed to different ways of thinking than one raised in, say, Pakistan... ;)ChiliDragon

GB is a doubtful muslim at the age of 15 whereas I was a strong one so obviously GB is a more insightful person than the 15 year old me. But I will still contend that atleast 17 years is the bear minimum I would accept people having their own religious belief.

And yes sure people may mature faster but you'l have to show some real world example where someone in their early teens was giving seriously good arguments against the religion they were indoctrinated in cuz I dont believe it's possible. Yes I have heard of many people having change of thoughts on religion at very young age but they are almost always based on irrational reasons and\or seem to be decisions of impulse and\or dont normally last very long.

I mean like my friend stopped believing in god at the age of 10 I think because his father died and god didnt answer his prayer to "undead" him. Hez again a muslim now!

This is just like the debate of the right age of consent for sex, 15 kinda falls in where the problem of drawing a line comes. Most people think it's morally acceptable to have sex with a 16 year old but with 15 it kinda gets a lil difficult to say. So obviously my argument about GB is not something objective I am trying to pass, it's just my opinion.

Yes I agree and hence the difference here,

GB is a doubtful muslim at the age of 15 whereas I was a strong one so obviously GB is a more insightful person than the 15 year old me. But I will still contend that atleast 17 years is the bear minimum I would accept people having their own religious belief.

And yes sure people may mature faster but you'l have to show some real world example where someone in their early teens was giving seriously good arguments against the religion they were indoctrinated in cuz I dont believe it's possible. Yes I have heard of many people having change of thoughts on religion at very young age but they are almost always based on irrational reasons and\or seem to be decisions of impulse and\or dont normally last very long.

I mean like my friend stopped believing in god at the age of 10 I think because his father died and god didnt answer his prayer to "undead" him. Hez again a muslim now!

This is just like the debate of the right age of consent for sex, 15 kinda falls in where the problem of drawing a line comes. Most people think it's morally acceptable to have sex with a 16 year old but with 15 it kinda gets a lil difficult to say. So obviously my argument about GB is not something objective I am trying to pass, it's just my opinion.

Gambler_3

I'm your real world example. I was bought up a Christian, baptised, went to "Christian-oriented" schools. I was packed off to "Sunday school" for a couple of hours each Sunday from 6 onwards, from where I started bunking off at the age of 10. I remember not liking it there because they didn't answer the questions I was asking with any seriousness. This was despite the questionable nature of the stuff they were explaining. I was also raised on Aesops fables, that had far more powerful resonance with me with regard to how to behave.

I then went to an English public school at 12 (private and paid for - with an on site church that we had compulsory attendance at). I already knew then that religion didn't sit well with my own conception of living.

Your age restrictions - I think you are really barking up the wrong tree there. I bet that if I was raised in certain parts of the middle east, my Islamic faith would probably be strong now, since society there is far more aligned to the structures and pressures of the religion than in Greater London, where I was raised.

The age of reason could be tied up with the age of consent in many ways - the allowable age for people to make fundamental decisions about how to live their own lives. This site shows the world thinks differently about this. Ages from 12 to 18 are proffered for this mythical "mean" age of consent. Interestingly, and aside from the unknown or no age restricted countries, the lowest age listing of 12 for consent is the Vatican State!

This site shows the world thinks differently about this. Ages from 12 to 18 are proffered for this mythical "mean" age of consent. Interestingly, and aside from the unknown or no age restricted countries, the lowest age listing of 12 for consent is the Vatican State! RationalAtheist

Holy flippin hell. I can't believe that the Vatican is doing worse than Nigeria in regards to sexual consent. WHAT THE **** MAN?

[QUOTE="RationalAtheist"]This site shows the world thinks differently about this. Ages from 12 to 18 are proffered for this mythical "mean" age of consent. Interestingly, and aside from the unknown or no age restricted countries, the lowest age listing of 12 for consent is the Vatican State! domatron23

Holy flippin hell. I can't believe that the Vatican is doing worse than Nigeria in regards to sexual consent. WHAT THE **** MAN?

...he already has doubts about his religion...Gambler_3

I should have rephrased that. You could say that I doubt my religion such that a Muslim would call me a disbeliever, yet also believe in it such that I am considered a Muslim by Islam's standards. I still identify myself as a Muslim, too. I'm basically in a state of confusion, in which I keep switching between deism and Islam. I often say things to myself like "I should still believe, after all, I may be just ignorant. But what if Islam really is false?". So I'm trying to learn about Islam as much as I can, and subsequently come to some reasonable conclusion.

i could say the same to you guys im tired of explaining to people why i am a mormon and i personally i find it absurd folks can go around and not beleive in God....see this works two ways TCtachikoma679

Technically, I agree (about absurdism being a consequence of atheism).