The praying atheist

I was just reading over the exchange between RationalAtheist and tachikoma679 and they brought up an issue that has been pestering me for a while. Whenever you talk to Christians, whether they be Catholics, Protestants, Mormons, non-denominationals... whatever, they all emphasise the importance of prayer. They claim that if you really want to get to know God you've got to talk to him, openly and honestly and ask for guidance, revelation and what have you.

As an Atheist this is a huge stumbling block for me. I have never prayed before in my life yet I dearly want to pursue the question of God's existence with intellectual honesty. If prayer is such a big part of discovering God though then I clearly have a problem with that goal.

The reasons why I've never prayed are fairly simple. First of all I'm a fairly self-conscious kind of guy. I wont sing or dance or do anything of the sort because I feel like a right whilly whenever I do. Prayer is kind of similar in that respect, it just makes me feel silly to carry out a conversation with thin air. For the theists here what is praying like? I presume you don't get audible responses in comprehensible English so do you just get a feeling instead? Do thoughts or intuitions pop into your head or is there some altogether supernatural experience that you can't understand until you do it?

The second reason is a little more serious than simply being self conscious. It seems as if sincere prayer requires that you presuppose the existence of the particular God that you're talking to. Any person can recite a prayer as a series of words, either orally or introspectively but what good is it if you do not believe that God exists or worse still, if you believe that God does not exist? How would a weak atheist understand how to address what he has no conception of and how would a strong atheist avoid being disingenuous?

To the atheists here have you ever had a go at praying? If you have tell me your experiences and if you haven't tell me why not. To the theists, if you had the existence of God revealed to you through prayer how did you pray in the first place? What can you recommend to someone like me who's a self-conscious strong atheist in respect to the Abrahamic version of God?

I won't repeat my earlier disclosure about my attempts to pray. I only assume that when you say a prayer, you are not always praying.

One issue I felt I had as a child was not really understanding what the Lords prayer was all about. The words are couched in Olde English and full of descriptors that I can't seem to actualise or conceive of happening. Not only that, but the monotone, rhythmic chanting has always sounded malicious and scary to me.

Communal praying aside, I find the repetitious and often self-indulgent nature of praying to be dangerous. I see all sorts of equivalents in NLP practices, hypnotic suggestion and other mind-bending practices. The practices are not in themselves dangerous, but their use to convey or re-enforce a particular message might interfere with rational questioning of the message being conveyed.

For about a year after I became an atheist, I still professed being a Christian and I continued going to church. They set a time for prayer so I bowed my head and looked as though I was praying, but in my head I was thinking about other things. If they prayer is said aloud, I will just repeat after them without meaning what I say. Eventually, I got so bored of prayer and so used to not believing in God, that I thought something along the lines of "God, if you're there, show me a sign." I have not seen that sign nor do I know what to expect. I guess it takes a belief in God to interpret circumstances as a sign of God.

I agree with you Domatron. Prayer presupposes that you must believe in God or some being that is capable of telepathy. Because of that, I cannot honestly pray. Whenever I go to church and am asked to pray, I'll sit there silently in thought. This is why I don't think atheists should go to church, because they can't honestly be serious when they pray.

It is certainly a bit of a catch-22 - if people claim that they prayed and nothing happened, Christians will likely reply that they weren't sincere, so of course it didn't work.  I suppose they might suggest a tactic of "fake it until you make it" - i.e., trying to convince yourself that there actually is someone out there who is listening, even if intellectually you don't believe as such.

If nothing else, I think prayer is certainly an effective form of meditation, so if you feel silly talking to what you perceive as thin air, you could always instead interpret it as a conversation with your inner unconscious self or something like that.

If nothing else, I think prayer is certainly an effective form of meditation, so if you feel silly talking to what you perceive as thin air, you could always instead interpret it as a conversation with your inner unconscious self or something like that.

GabuEx

It is certainly a bit of a catch-22 - if people claim that they prayed and nothing happened, Christians will likely reply that they weren't sincere, so of course it didn't work. I suppose they might suggest a tactic of "fake it until you make it" - i.e., trying to convince yourself that there actually is someone out there who is listening, even if intellectually you don't believe as such.

If nothing else, I think prayer is certainly an effective form of meditation, so if you feel silly talking to what you perceive as thin air, you could always instead interpret it as a conversation with your inner unconscious self or something like that.

GabuEx

I agree. I think that's what satanists and buddhists use their rituals/mantras for. Supposedly it helps clear the mind of negative energy. My issue with black masses or buddhist chants is that by the time I've done the preparation for it, the negative energy is weakened or gone.

For the theists here what is praying like? I presume you don't get audible responses in comprehensible English so do you just get a feeling instead? Do thoughts or intuitions pop into your head or is there some altogether supernatural experience that you can't understand until you do it?domatron23

My prayers very from one another but my "best prayers" have certain unifying characteristics.

First off, I must be in a humble and repentant attitude before God.  Essentually, I am realizing that God's worth is significantly greater than my own.

Second, there tends to be a lot less of me asking for "stuff" and more of me being awe-filled before God, sometimes merely contemplating and praising who he is or what he has done.  While asking for things is certainly not wrong, we are in fact called to give God our requests, my most inspiring prayers tends to resemble contemptation more than begging (though, there certainly has been emotional "begging prayers" to have sin taken away).

Another thing, when I am indeed broken before God (example, the attitude of Psalm 51), I am not merely in monologue.  This dialogue between me and God might not have God speak audibly but there certainly is communication on his part.  This revelation tends to be in the form of epiphanies of various types, having scripture recalled from memory, etc.  Many times I'll make statements in my prayers or ask questions but will instantly know the answer because of my knowledge of Scripture.  However, there was one time I did indeed actually hear an audible voice...

With all of that said, I have never felt like my prayers were unheard.  That is, unless I was unrepentant.  Only when I refuse to even attempt to turn from sin do I ever feel like my prayers are in vain.  However, rarely am I even capable of praying when unrepentant. 

One thing I'd like to add, I very much follow the command in Scripture of "pray without ceasing."  I'm not one to spend long periods of time praying at a certain part of the day, but rather, I pray throughout the day having conversation with God.

I won't repeat my earlier disclosure about my attempts to pray. I only assume that when you say a prayer, you are not always praying.

One issue I felt I had as a child was not really understanding what the Lords prayer was all about. The words are couched in Olde English and full of descriptors that I can't seem to actualise or conceive of happening. Not only that, but the monotone, rhythmic chanting has always sounded malicious and scary to me.

Communal praying aside, I find the repetitious and often self-indulgent nature of praying to be dangerous. I see all sorts of equivalents in NLP practices, hypnotic suggestion and other mind-bending practices. The practices are not in themselves dangerous, but their use to convey or re-enforce a particular message might interfere with rational questioning of the message being conveyed.

 

RationalAtheist

Your statement reminds me of a past experience of my own.  Sometime ago I visited a fundamentalist Independent-Baptist school for an event held on their campus.  At the beginning of the event everyone quoted the King James Version of the Lord's Prayer.  Everyone said it perfectly and harmoniously together.  ...it was one of the creepiest experiences I've ever had.  If I did not share so many beliefs with them, I'd swear I was a part of a cult meeting.

*shortened*

Another thing, when I am indeed broken before God (example, the attitude of Psalm 51), I am not merely in monologue. This dialogue between me and God might not have God speak audibly but there certainly is communication on his part. This revelation tends to be in the form of epiphanies of various types, having scripture recalled from memory, etc. Many times I'll make statements in my prayers or ask questions but will instantly know the answer because of my knowledge of Scripture. However, there was one time I did indeed actually hear an audible voice...mindstorm

Interesting. What did you hear? Who/what do you think it was?

Another thing: when you pray. do you speak out loud?

[QUOTE="mindstorm"]

*shortened*

Another thing, when I am indeed broken before God (example, the attitude of Psalm 51), I am not merely in monologue. This dialogue between me and God might not have God speak audibly but there certainly is communication on his part. This revelation tends to be in the form of epiphanies of various types, having scripture recalled from memory, etc. Many times I'll make statements in my prayers or ask questions but will instantly know the answer because of my knowledge of Scripture. However, there was one time I did indeed actually hear an audible voice...dracula_16

Interesting. What did you hear? Who/what do you think it was?

Another thing: when you pray. do you speak out loud?

To quote a previous post of mine in the Christian Union, "One thing I've always desired is to physically feel or see God directly.  Well, last night while in worship at church I was praying during song.  I prayed for God to truly consume me and for me to truly feel him (as we were singing From The Inside Out).  To say the least, this prayer was intense. At that moment, I heard a literal and audible voice which simply said, 'I'm here my son.'  I instantly began crying (though I was already tearing up).  I'm not sure I've ever felt so much comfort before in my life.  It was amazing."

The reason why I quoted myself is because I wrote this the day after the event.

Sure one could argue that my heightened emotional state caused me to hear something that only existed in my mind, but I'm one to believe that God is powerful enough to speak through such a thing.  Thus, regardless of whether it was God speaking directly or my emotions getting the best of me, I do indeed believe God played a part.  Do not take this statement too far, however, since it is rare of me to actually believe this stuff to be true.

I do not know the details, but in a somewhat similar experience just over a week ago I have a friend who claims to have seen a bright light while in prayer while at church.  She also received comfort and peace during this experience.

As far as whether I pray out loud, there certainly is a tendency for me to do so out loud assuming I am alone.  Thus, I have prayed out loud many times driving my car, taking a shower, in my bed, on the floor flat on my face, etc. 

To quote a previous post of mine in the Christian Union, "One thing I've always desired is to physically feel or see God directly. Well, last night while in worship at church I was praying during song. I prayed for God to truly consume me and for me to truly feel him (as we were singing From The Inside Out). To say the least, this prayer was intense. At that moment, I heard a literal and audible voice which simply said, 'I'm here my son.' I instantly began crying (though I was already tearing up). I'm not sure I've ever felt so much comfort before in my life. It was amazing."

The reason why I quoted myself is because I wrote this the day after the event.

Sure one could argue that my heightened emotional state caused me to hear something that only existed in my mind, but I'm one to believe that God is powerful enough to speak through such a thing. Thus, regardless of whether it was God speaking directly or my emotions getting the best of me, I do indeed believe God played a part. Do not take this statement too far, however, since it is rare of me to actually believe this stuff to be true.

I do not know the details, but in a somewhat similar experience just over a week ago I have a friend who claims to have seen a bright light while in prayer while at church. She also received comfort and peace during this experience.

As far as whether I pray out loud, there certainly is a tendency for me to do so out loud assuming I am alone. Thus, I have prayed out loud many times driving my car, taking a shower, in my bed, on the floor flat on my face, etc.

mindstorm

Do you think it was an angel speaking to you? My knowledge of the Old Testament is sketchy, but I believe it says that a person dies if he/she comes into the presence of God. If the Old Testament and your experience are genuine, wouldn't it be impossible for you to have heard the voice of God?

[QUOTE="mindstorm"]To quote a previous post of mine in the Christian Union, "One thing I've always desired is to physically feel or see God directly. Well, last night while in worship at church I was praying during song. I prayed for God to truly consume me and for me to truly feel him (as we were singing From The Inside Out). To say the least, this prayer was intense. At that moment, I heard a literal and audible voice which simply said, 'I'm here my son.' I instantly began crying (though I was already tearing up). I'm not sure I've ever felt so much comfort before in my life. It was amazing."

The reason why I quoted myself is because I wrote this the day after the event.

Sure one could argue that my heightened emotional state caused me to hear something that only existed in my mind, but I'm one to believe that God is powerful enough to speak through such a thing. Thus, regardless of whether it was God speaking directly or my emotions getting the best of me, I do indeed believe God played a part. Do not take this statement too far, however, since it is rare of me to actually believe this stuff to be true.

I do not know the details, but in a somewhat similar experience just over a week ago I have a friend who claims to have seen a bright light while in prayer while at church. She also received comfort and peace during this experience.

As far as whether I pray out loud, there certainly is a tendency for me to do so out loud assuming I am alone. Thus, I have prayed out loud many times driving my car, taking a shower, in my bed, on the floor flat on my face, etc.

dracula_16

Do you think it was an angel speaking to you? My knowledge of the Old Testament is sketchy, but I believe it says that a person dies if he/she comes into the presence of God. If the Old Testament and your experience are genuine, wouldn't it be impossible for you to have heard the voice of God?

Simply because of what was said, I assume it would not be an angel.  "I'm here my son" would not make sense coming from an angel (not saying that it could not have been from a demon).  Though, I certainly do believe it is possible to communicate with both angels and demons (as we have talked about a bit in regards to Mormonism).

As far as whether we can hear the voice of God, he speaks many times in Scripture (e.g. "The LORD said...").  Many times Scripture speaks of how God is invisible and yet Jesus is the image of the invisible God.  It is very likely so that the voice of God works very much like the visibility of God: impossible to hear in all its glory (that is, assuming we wish to live through the experience) but possible to hear a "humbled version" of it (for lack of a better way to describe it).

Simply because of what was said, I assume it would not be an angel. "I'm here my son" would not make sense coming from an angel (not saying that it could not have been from a demon). Though, I certainly do believe it is possible to communicate with both angels and demons (as we have talked about a bit in regards to Mormonism).

As far as whether we can hear the voice of God, he speaks many times in Scripture (e.g. "The LORD said..."). Many times Scripture speaks of how God is invisible and yet Jesus is the image of the invisible God. It is very likely so that the voice of God works very much like the visibility of God: impossible to hear in all its glory (that is, assuming we wish to live through the experience) but possible to hear a "humbled version" of it (for lack of a better way to describe it).mindstorm

No offence, but I don't think that that makes sense. I know that he "spoke" to Abraham and Moses many times, but I don't think it means a literal conversation. I think those verses are trying to portray that the "speaking" that God did was inspiring Abraham and Moses' hearts via the Holy Spirit. Ask a christian how they know that their prayer is answered and I can guarentee that they'll say that the Holy Spirit "spoke" to them. The ancient hebrews believed that saying God's name out loud was blasphemous, so wouldn't a one-to-one conversation with him go even further in that direction?

[QUOTE="mindstorm"]Simply because of what was said, I assume it would not be an angel. "I'm here my son" would not make sense coming from an angel (not saying that it could not have been from a demon). Though, I certainly do believe it is possible to communicate with both angels and demons (as we have talked about a bit in regards to Mormonism).

As far as whether we can hear the voice of God, he speaks many times in Scripture (e.g. "The LORD said..."). Many times Scripture speaks of how God is invisible and yet Jesus is the image of the invisible God. It is very likely so that the voice of God works very much like the visibility of God: impossible to hear in all its glory (that is, assuming we wish to live through the experience) but possible to hear a "humbled version" of it (for lack of a better way to describe it).dracula_16

No offence, but I don't think that that makes sense. I know that he "spoke" to Abraham and Moses many times, but I don't think it means a literal conversation. I think those verses are trying to portray that the "speaking" that God did was inspiring Abraham and Moses' hearts via the Holy Spirit. Ask a christian how they know that their prayer is answered and I can guarentee that they'll say that the Holy Spirit "spoke" to them. The ancient hebrews believed that saying God's name out loud was blasphemous, so wouldn't a one-to-one conversation with him go even further in that direction?

Many times God may very well have spoken in that manner, however, I do not believe that is the case most of the times quotes appear.  When Moses had the burning bush speak to him, for example, I in no way believe that this was anything but literal words being spoken audibly.

As far as the ancient Hebrews not saying God's name out loud, I see that more in the later Jewish traditions, not from those who are actually mentioned in Scripture.  I do not really see how hearing a literal voice from God can be remotely blasphemous.  Claiming to speak on behalf of God when God never spoke, however, would certainly go in that direction.  As such, if the prophets merely spoken on behalf of God based upon feeling alone, I have issues with their credibility. I want revelation to come from God, not feelings.

Doesn't it say in the bible that if you pray for anything in God's name with faith, it will be done, i.e:

"If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer"

(from Matthew 21:22, also Mark 11:24, John 14:14, Matthew 18:19 - thanks Mr E Tarte).

I'd imagine the failure of these unconditional biblical promises is one of the reasons praying seems so difficult to do properly for an atheist like myself.

@RA: I remember a passage I read last night that says God won't give you anything you ask for in prayer. Couldn't tell you which one it is.foxhound_fox

[QUOTE="foxhound_fox"]@RA: I remember a passage I read last night that says God won't give you anything you ask for in prayer. Couldn't tell you which one it is.ChiliDragon

Oh, well you'll forgive the confusion, seeing as it says the opposite in the New Testament - in four places:

"If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer"

(from Matthew 21:22, also Mark 11:24, John 14:14, Matthew 18:19)

The only purpose praying seems to serve is to make the person praying feel better. The prayer-sayer may think they've done something positive in clasping hands, eyes tightly shut, deep in some pleading contemplation. Perhaps their time would be better served by doing something actual and tangible to realise their prayers.

Praying has no measurable effect on outcomes in numerous scientific studies. With that in mind, isn't there something sinister about prayer? Repetition is a form of mind control, after all. If you believe something so completely, why would you have to constantly re-affirm it to yourself?

I've read about people praying for an answer or for guidance. Isn't that a supreme delegation of someone's accountability as a person? How would they be able to discriminate between their revealed truth and common sense? How would that abandonment of personal responsibility be checked so that personal indulgence and fantasy are avoided?

I've read about people praying for an answer or for guidance. Isn't that a supreme delegation of someone's accountability as a person?

RationalAtheist

[QUOTE="RationalAtheist"]

I've read about people praying for an answer or for guidance. Isn't that a supreme delegation of someone's accountability as a person?

ChiliDragon

I do hope you clicked the link in my paragraph. I find it hard to determine how someone thinking they can get advice through prayer could distinguish between the advice from an imagined trusted friend, or from their own ideas.

If what you say is true, and the advice acted on is not your own, then you are not accountable for it. You are following instructions, since you've placed your responsibility for a solution in a higher authority, rather than accepting it for yourself.

I do hope you clicked the link in my paragraph. I find it hard to determine how someone thinking they can get advice through prayer could distinguish between the advice from an imagined trusted friend, or from their own ideas.

RationalAtheist

[QUOTE="RationalAtheist"]

I do hope you clicked the link in my paragraph. I find it hard to determine how someone thinking they can get advice through prayer could distinguish between the advice from an imagined trusted friend, or from their own ideas.

ChiliDragon

The link is of the whitest Mormon, who, after guidance from God, is trying to be better than Jesus (by painting himself white and standing outside the Utah Mormon main temple. I find it all highly amusing in a schadenfreude way. I know its tough to click a link, but it is far harder to type out a reply. At least you're honest and have bothered to reply.

My point IS that to the person praying this is not an imagined friend. To them, the voice is real. In the case of the video, members of the Mormon's church could not pursuade him to stop his carry-on. One would think all members of a faith would share the same guidance mechanism (if that faith is true), but this Mormon's own internal dialogue with his God contradicted the popular Mormon conception of the belief. If the advice from within contradicts some of the practices or values of that belief, there is no way to check that. How would the conflict be resolved over what your personal God suggests clashing with your established theology?

Off the top of my head I would say that any time the "inner voice" is telling you of a way to become better than the God you're praying to, you should probably question it. :P

I would also say that for me personally the established theology should be winning out over personal desires, if nothing else because the established theology of a religion tends to be based on how the nature of its deity is perceived. To use a simple anecdote as an example: The Christian God wants his followers to forgive their enemies, and has ordered us to pray for those who hurt us. If during prayer I suddenly feel a strong impulse not to because "he probably didn't mean it with all of them, and especially not this one", it's probably safe to assume that the impulse is not from God, because it goes right against what his followers have believed his nature to be for the past two thousand years, and what is taught in the Bible that is believed to be inspired by God. Conflict resolved. Of course not all situations are that straight-forward, but the same principle applies.ChiliDragon

I'm not so sure the conflict would be resolved, if after receiving guidance from prayer, you'd have to reject it through concordance with established theology. Wouldn't that create a huge internal conflict - if your trusted friend couldn't be trusted?

I'm not so sure the conflict would be resolved, if after receiving guidance from prayer, you'd have to reject it through concordance with established theology. Wouldn't that create a huge internal conflict - if your trusted friend couldn't be trusted?

RationalAtheist

[QUOTE="RationalAtheist"]

I'm not so sure the conflict would be resolved, if after receiving guidance from prayer, you'd have to reject it through concordance with established theology. Wouldn't that create a huge internal conflict - if your trusted friend couldn't be trusted?

ChiliDragon

But to play devil's advocate, what if that established theology was in fact the error?   It seems to me that it would be a little strange to trust the voice in someone else's head than the one in your own. :P

But to play devil's advocate, what if that established theology was in fact the error?   It seems to me that it would be a little strange to trust the voice in someone else's head than the one in your own. :P

GabuEx

[QUOTE="GabuEx"]

But to play devil's advocate, what if that established theology was in fact the error?   It seems to me that it would be a little strange to trust the voice in someone else's head than the one in your own. :P

ChiliDragon

But is it truly a thousand years of that, or is it a thousand years of people hearing differently but then restraining themselves based on established theology?

[QUOTE="RationalAtheist"]

I'm not so sure the conflict would be resolved, if after receiving guidance from prayer, you'd have to reject it through concordance with established theology. Wouldn't that create a huge internal conflict - if your trusted friend couldn't be trusted?

ChiliDragon

That would leave someone like me not knowing who to trust and the conflict still unresolved, as you indicate. The conflict isn't justified by any rational reasoning, so remains, as a good idea is unreasonably dismissed.

Also, isn't what you should be doing defined by your "established religious guidance", making this a viscious cycle of internal, valid, rationally justified thoughts rejecting faith-bound ideas being drowned out by conditioned "established thinking" for your own equally selfish ends (to be as perfect as you can for God, or something like that).

"Established" theology still has plenty of scope for various interpretations - not least about sexuality, the role of women, slavery and odd views on fundametal scientific models of understanding. So if I was in doubt about my own sexuality, I'd imagine the worst thing I could do would be to follow a conservative Christian religious path.

How would Protestantism (for example) have evolved without some independent questioning of established ideas from within the Christian faith of the time?