The Brain and Ourselves

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Theokhoth

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#1 Theokhoth
Member since 2008 • 36799 Posts

Now, I'm pretty sure most people here (especially domatron) would agree that the brain controls our consciousness and self-identity; we are self aware because of our brains and what we call a "soul" is merely our consciousness, which is controlled by our brains.

But here's something interesting:

We can all agree that a person with only half a brain hemisphere can live a perfectly normal life with little to no consciousness alterations whatsoever. This has been demonstrated throughout history in epilepsy patients and Phineas Gage (who, incidentally, did suffer a sudden change in personality, but more on that later).

Now, let's say somebody was in a terrible accident far into the future. His body was killed, but half of his brain managed to survive, and was implanted into an artificially-made body. Now, when that man wakes up, we can all probably guess that his personality, assuming his hemisphere was in good shape, would be the same. He would have a completely different body, but his consciousness--his self-awareness--would remain intact and the same as it was before: he would consider himself the same person he was before the accident.

Now comes the kicker:

 Let's take the hypothetical situation up a small level and say both of the man's brain hemispheres survived, but only half could be placed into one body for whatever reason. So one half of his brain would placed into one body and the other half would be placed in the other body.

Now, if both bodies woke up, would they be the same person? You can't be in two places at once. But if the brain is the sole controller of the self, and if half a brain can work just as well as a whole brain, then we'd expect to be self-aware of two of ourselves--a logical impossibility.

This suggests that the brain is not the sole mastermind of the self, as both of the half-brains couldn't possibly make someone doubly self-aware: literally, in two places at once.

Just a neat thing we did in philosophy cIass today.

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domatron23

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#2 domatron23
Member since 2007 • 6226 Posts

Yeah I did roughly the same thing in my philosophy of religion class last year *shakes fist angrily at dualists*.

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Sitri_

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#3 Sitri_
Member since 2008 • 731 Posts
Well as can be seen in spit brain patients, dividing the brain does alter the intellect and personality.  As far as where the self goes.....I side with the buddhist, there is no I comma Sitri, no thinker behind the thought.  Those are just words we create to help us simplify ideas and conversations.
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Theokhoth

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#4 Theokhoth
Member since 2008 • 36799 Posts

Well as can be seen in spit brain patients, dividing the brain does alter the intellect and personality.  Sitri_

Not in every case. What happens is the remaining hemisphere picks up the slack and functions as an almost-whole brain.I once knew a boy with epilepsy; he had several brain surgeries including a hemispherectomy, and while he was learning disabled (not necessarily due to the surgery), his personality never changed.

As for the Buddhist philosophy, I agree with Descartes' First Principal: I think, therefore I exist. What if there was nothing in the universe--nothing at all--but there was still thought?

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MetalGear_Ninty

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#5 MetalGear_Ninty
Member since 2008 • 6337 Posts

As for the Buddhist philosophy, I agree with Descartes' First Principal: I think, therefore I exist. What if there was nothing in the universe--nothing at all--but there was still thought?

Theokhoth

Well thought is something -- and therefore if there is thought there is something in the universe.

As for the hypothetical -- then I supposse both vessels would initially have identical personalities -- but they would start to diverge as both vessels experienced different things and thus eventualy became their own individual entities.

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Teenaged

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#6 Teenaged
Member since 2007 • 31764 Posts
Well if we consider the brain being simply the vehicle of the soul or consciousness, when that vehicle is cut in two, then the original "driver" of it will stick to one part and idk really. Just that it is certain for me (not literaly certain but you get the picture) that consciousness or the soul cannot be divided.
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Stryder1212

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#7 Stryder1212
Member since 2005 • 114 Posts

Our personality is a combination of the many parts of the brain as a whole. Should someone lose half of their brain, well, it'd be an imbalanced personality. That is to say their personality would obviously change because the cerebral componets that composed their "self" are seperated. It's possible that our personalities may be altered by removing key parts of the brain, but to varying extents.

BTW: That thing Theokhoth said that "putting brains into new bodies" thing, does it make anyone else think of Ghost In The Shell?

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danwallacefan

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#8 danwallacefan
Member since 2008 • 2413 Posts

Now, I'm pretty sure most people here (especially domatron) would agree that the brain controls our consciousness and self-identity; we are self aware because of our brains and what we call a "soul" is merely our consciousness, which is controlled by our brains.

But here's something interesting:

We can all agree that a person with only half a brain hemisphere can live a perfectly normal life with little to no consciousness alterations whatsoever. This has been demonstrated throughout history in epilepsy patients and Phineas Gage (who, incidentally, did suffer a sudden change in personality, but more on that later).

Now, let's say somebody was in a terrible accident far into the future. His body was killed, but half of his brain managed to survive, and was implanted into an artificially-made body. Now, when that man wakes up, we can all probably guess that his personality, assuming his hemisphere was in good shape, would be the same. He would have a completely different body, but his consciousness--his self-awareness--would remain intact and the same as it was before: he would consider himself the same person he was before the accident.

Now comes the kicker:

Let's take the hypothetical situation up a small level and say both of the man's brain hemispheres survived, but only half could be placed into one body for whatever reason. So one half of his brain would placed into one body and the other half would be placed in the other body.

Now, if both bodies woke up, would they be the same person? You can't be in two places at once. But if the brain is the sole controller of the self, and if half a brain can work just as well as a whole brain, then we'd expect to be self-aware of two of ourselves--a logical impossibility.

This suggests that the brain is not the sole mastermind of the self, as both of the half-brains couldn't possibly make someone doubly self-aware: literally, in two places at once.

Just a neat thing we did in philosophy cIass today.

Theokhoth

I actually brought up that same argument in my discourse with Domatron. If you want a really cool dialogue on the mind/body dualism vs. monism debate, I would suggest you read my thread "Moreland's argument against materialistic determinism".

but yeah, its a really cool argument in favor of Mind/body dualism

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domatron23

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#9 domatron23
Member since 2007 • 6226 Posts

I actually brought up that same argument in my discourse with Domatron. If you want a really cool dialogue on the mind/body dualism vs. monism debate, I would suggest you read my thread "Moreland's argument against materialistic determinism".

danwallacefan

I promise I'll actually respond to that thread one day. It's just that such a response generally takes up a good couple of hours and recently I've not had a good couple of hours all to myself because of work and moving into my first flat.

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Teenaged

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#10 Teenaged
Member since 2007 • 31764 Posts
[QUOTE="danwallacefan"]

I actually brought up that same argument in my discourse with Domatron. If you want a really cool dialogue on the mind/body dualism vs. monism debate, I would suggest you read my thread "Moreland's argument against materialistic determinism".

domatron23

I promise I'll actually respond to that thread one day. It's just that such a response generally takes up a good couple of hours and recently I've not had a good couple of hours all to myself because of work and moving into my first flat.

But after this you will also answer to the rest of the threads you haven't answered, ok? Promise? That goes for Sitri as well.
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domatron23

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#11 domatron23
Member since 2007 • 6226 Posts
[QUOTE="domatron23"][QUOTE="danwallacefan"]

I actually brought up that same argument in my discourse with Domatron. If you want a really cool dialogue on the mind/body dualism vs. monism debate, I would suggest you read my thread "Moreland's argument against materialistic determinism".

Teenaged

I promise I'll actually respond to that thread one day. It's just that such a response generally takes up a good couple of hours and recently I've not had a good couple of hours all to myself because of work and moving into my first flat.

But after this you will also answer to the rest of the threads you haven't answered, ok? Promise? That goes for Sitri as well.

What other threads have I failed to answer in?

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Teenaged

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#12 Teenaged
Member since 2007 • 31764 Posts
[QUOTE="Teenaged"]

But after this you will also answer to the rest of the threads you haven't answered, ok? Promise? That goes for Sitri as well.domatron23

What other threads have I failed to answer in?

The Meaning of Life, By Genetic_Code and The Emergence of Doubt, by lancelot200. Get to work. :P
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domatron23

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#13 domatron23
Member since 2007 • 6226 Posts
[QUOTE="domatron23"][QUOTE="Teenaged"]

But after this you will also answer to the rest of the threads you haven't answered, ok? Promise? That goes for Sitri as well.Teenaged

What other threads have I failed to answer in?

The Meaning of Life, By Genetic_Code and The Emergence of Doubt, by lancelot200. Get to work. :P

"Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something." -Plato

I've read both of those threads and I didn't post because I honestly had nothing worthwhile to say. I voted for option 1 in Genetic_Code's thread though if you were interested.

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Teenaged

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#14 Teenaged
Member since 2007 • 31764 Posts
[QUOTE="Teenaged"][QUOTE="domatron23"][QUOTE="Teenaged"]

But after this you will also answer to the rest of the threads you haven't answered, ok? Promise? That goes for Sitri as well.domatron23

What other threads have I failed to answer in?

The Meaning of Life, By Genetic_Code and The Emergence of Doubt, by lancelot200. Get to work. :P

"Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something." -Plato

I've read both of those threads and I didn't post because I honestly had nothing worthwhile to say. I voted for option 1 in Genetic_Code's thread though if you were interested.

Hey! :x That was meaaaan.... :cry: jk. I hope... :?
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helium_flash

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#15 helium_flash
Member since 2007 • 9244 Posts
What do you mean "two places at once?" There would be two seperate conciousnesses in each body. Plus, I don't think it is possible to do a brain transplant because the brain stem would be broken, and if that breaks you're dead.
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helium_flash

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#16 helium_flash
Member since 2007 • 9244 Posts
[QUOTE="Teenaged"][QUOTE="domatron23"][QUOTE="Teenaged"]

But after this you will also answer to the rest of the threads you haven't answered, ok? Promise? That goes for Sitri as well.domatron23

What other threads have I failed to answer in?

The Meaning of Life, By Genetic_Code and The Emergence of Doubt, by lancelot200. Get to work. :P

"Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something." -Plato

I've read both of those threads and I didn't post because I honestly had nothing worthwhile to say. I voted for option 1 in Genetic_Code's thread though if you were interested.

Did you read Plato's Symposium?
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domatron23

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#17 domatron23
Member since 2007 • 6226 Posts
[QUOTE="domatron23"][QUOTE="Teenaged"][QUOTE="domatron23"][QUOTE="Teenaged"]

But after this you will also answer to the rest of the threads you haven't answered, ok? Promise? That goes for Sitri as well.helium_flash

What other threads have I failed to answer in?

The Meaning of Life, By Genetic_Code and The Emergence of Doubt, by lancelot200. Get to work. :P

"Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something." -Plato

I've read both of those threads and I didn't post because I honestly had nothing worthwhile to say. I voted for option 1 in Genetic_Code's thread though if you were interested.

Did you read Plato's Symposium?

Nah I've only read the Euthyphro, The Apology, the Crito and the Phaedo. I've got the Republic on my book shelf waiting to be read and a bunch of other stuff.

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domatron23

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#18 domatron23
Member since 2007 • 6226 Posts
[QUOTE="domatron23"]

"Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something." -Plato

I've read both of those threads and I didn't post because I honestly had nothing worthwhile to say. I voted for option 1 in Genetic_Code's thread though if you were interested.

Teenaged

Hey! :x That was meaaaan.... :cry: jk. I hope... :?

I wasn't implying that you are a fool. Quite to the contrary you've made some long and well thought out posts here that display your intelligence quite well.

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Teenaged

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#19 Teenaged
Member since 2007 • 31764 Posts
[QUOTE="Teenaged"][QUOTE="domatron23"]

"Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something." -Plato

I've read both of those threads and I didn't post because I honestly had nothing worthwhile to say. I voted for option 1 in Genetic_Code's thread though if you were interested.

domatron23

Hey! :x That was meaaaan.... :cry: jk. I hope... :?

I wasn't implying that you are a fool. Quite to the contrary you've made some long and well thought out posts here that display your intelligence quite well.

I was -mostly- joking. It was just that I was looking forward to answers such as yours and Sitri's. And thanks, how nice of you. :)
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danwallacefan

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#20 danwallacefan
Member since 2008 • 2413 Posts

What do you mean "two places at once?" There would be two seperate conciousnesses in each body. Plus, I don't think it is possible to do a brain transplant because the brain stem would be broken, and if that breaks you're dead.helium_flash
helium, its a question of IDENTITY. If we accept that there is an identity which each person posesses, and if we go further and assume that one's identity is rooted in the mind (which seems reasonable. you would be the same person if your brain was placed in another body), and finally if we assume that the mind=the brain, then the question arises which person has the identity? does only one person? if so why? do both persons have the same identity? that's absurd. I cannot be in 2 places at once. Further, the physical impossibility of such a procedure isn't really all that relavent as it is a thought experiment.

oh, and who's to say that we will never be able to make such advances in neuro-surgery?

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helium_flash

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#21 helium_flash
Member since 2007 • 9244 Posts

[QUOTE="helium_flash"]What do you mean "two places at once?" There would be two seperate conciousnesses in each body. Plus, I don't think it is possible to do a brain transplant because the brain stem would be broken, and if that breaks you're dead.danwallacefan

helium, its a question of IDENTITY. If we accept that there is an identity which each person posesses, and if we go further and assume that one's identity is rooted in the mind (which seems reasonable. you would be the same person if your brain was placed in another body), and finally if we assume that the mind=the brain, then the question arises which person has the identity? does only one person? if so why? do both persons have the same identity? that's absurd. I cannot be in 2 places at once. Further, the physical impossibility of such a procedure isn't really all that relavent as it is a thought experiment.

oh, and who's to say that we will never be able to make such advances in neuro-surgery?

Ok. So we're just going to assume what you say is true then? That the your identity is attached to each brain?

Interesting. I don't believe what we're assuming so it is hard to imagine it. I would have the imagine that the brain that consisted of the hippocampus would contain the identity of the brain, because (please correct me if I'm wrong) the hippocampus stores our memories. I guess the other side would not have that identity anymore.

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_glatisant_

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#22 _glatisant_
Member since 2008 • 1060 Posts
I don't see the contradiction here. You'd have two conciouses wich are identical, but they would be oblivious to the other, so what's the problem?