Problems in the Bible

I see.SSBFan12

If there's something that hasn't been clear, I'd be happy to explain; my intention is not to argue by quantity. :P

So when Lans, or anyone really, says "you need to have the holy spirit to understand scripture," what that means to me is that "You have to believe what you know isn't true. You have to fight an uphill battle to try and make it make sense. And then you get the rewards of feeling good, and others that do the same tricks will feel good with you." Sitri_

In your experience, the people involved are not intentionally evil - they believe (or want to) and are sharing their belief in the way they know to be most effective. Yet, for them to go about setting up camps / revivals, knowing that leads to the most conversions, means on some level they are aware of what they're doing. They are aware the "holy spirt" works best in that setting.

-

Christianity has powerful tools at its disposal - fear of punishment ("you're going to hell"), fear of the unknown ("what's your purpose? What happens after death?"), fear of death ("we can give you eternal life, if you just believe"), acceptance ("we love everyone, come to our church"), socialization ("we're having a church ice cream social"), and straight-forward answers to complex moral questions.

-

I've found that Christianity is a comforting religion, but I've found it impossible to believe in - not because I don't believe there's a god, but because everything in it is so apparently man-made. It has all the markers of a social tool, one that was not entirely shaped "innocently".

Brilliant reply Sitri, well done. So often I find responses on this board that could easily be published.

I completely agree with you, the crowd mentality is cornerstone that holds faith together. The Church so vigorously recruits new members for the same reason an army does. More members equals more power, essentially a missionary's purpose (whether they know it or not).

I'm also impressed that you broke that religious illusion. At such a young, impressionable age it's nearly impossible to ignore all the propaganda, such that it becomes ingrained within you. It reminds me of the false Paradise in Alamut, used to recruit very young boys whom would be conditioned to do anything for the cause, anything for their prophet, and nothing for themselves.

Stryder1212

Thank you.

I personally broke that spell by stopping the continual reconditioning that people do to themselves.  I refused to ask god for anything in prayers because I thought it arrogant and presumptuous on my part.  Then I later decided that god would not be interested in all the repetitive and monotonous "you are great" prayers that are recycled 5 times a day.  Surely he must find them as hollow as I do and to inflict them on us both is a disservice.  Once I stopped conditioning myself to put god where he wasn't, I began to see he was never really needed in the first place.  My apostasy came as an indirect result of trying to be a good christian.

[QUOTE="Sitri_"]So when Lans, or anyone really, says "you need to have the holy spirit to understand scripture," what that means to me is that "You have to believe what you know isn't true. You have to fight an uphill battle to try and make it make sense. And then you get the rewards of feeling good, and others that do the same tricks will feel good with you." subrosian

In your experience, the people involved are not intentionally evil - they believe (or want to) and are sharing their belief in the way they know to be most effective. Yet, for them to go about setting up camps / revivals, knowing that leads to the most conversions, means on some level they are aware of what they're doing. They are aware the "holy spirt" works best in that setting.

-

Christianity has powerful tools at its disposal - fear of punishment ("you're going to hell"), fear of the unknown ("what's your purpose? What happens after death?"), fear of death ("we can give you eternal life, if you just believe"), acceptance ("we love everyone, come to our church"), socialization ("we're having a church ice cream social"), and straight-forward answers to complex moral questions.

-

I've found that Christianity is a comforting religion, but I've found it impossible to believe in - not because I don't believe there's a god, but because everything in it is so apparently man-made. It has all the markers of a social tool, one that was not entirely shaped "innocently".

The tools and techniques of spreading xtianity have been evolving since its inception.  More appealing ideas flourish, are expounded, and reused, unpopular ideas are ignored.  "Artificial selection" in action, and that is why it has such a man made stamp on it. 

I've found that Christianity is a comforting religion, but I've found it impossible to believe in - not because I don't believe there's a god, but because everything in it is so apparently man-made. It has all the markers of a social tool, one that was not entirely shaped "innocently".

subrosian

I also find it quite difficult to believe in, but I think that tends to be because of my intellectual openness more than anything else.

I am not familiar with too many passages in the Bible, but I did find this interesting :D.

Number of People God kills in the Bible. And Why.

Lucky he has such unbreakable justification for his actions. :|

[QUOTE="SSBFan12"]I see.GabuEx

If there's something that hasn't been clear, I'd be happy to explain; my intention is not to argue by quantity. :P

[QUOTE="GabuEx"]

[QUOTE="SSBFan12"]I see.SSBFan12

If there's something that hasn't been clear, I'd be happy to explain; my intention is not to argue by quantity. :P

[QUOTE="SSBFan12"][QUOTE="GabuEx"]

[QUOTE="SSBFan12"]I see.Funky_Llama

If there's something that hasn't been clear, I'd be happy to explain; my intention is not to argue by quantity. :P

Isn't he?

[QUOTE="Funky_Llama"][QUOTE="SSBFan12"][QUOTE="GabuEx"]

[QUOTE="SSBFan12"]I see.MetalGear_Ninty

If there's something that hasn't been clear, I'd be happy to explain; my intention is not to argue by quantity. :P

Isn't he?

Genesis 3:1616 To the woman he said,
"I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing;
with pain you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you."

1 Corinthians 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

1 Corinthians 11 7For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man. 8For the man is not of the woman: but the woman of the man. 9Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.

1 Corinthians 14 34 let the women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but let them be in subjection, as also saith the law. 35 And if they would learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home: for it is shameful for a woman to speak in the church.

Ephesians 5 22Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. 23For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.

Colossians 3 18Wives, be subject to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord.

((Leviticus 12:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a woman have conceived seed, and born a man child: then she shall be unclean seven days; according to the days of the separation for her infirmity shall she be unclean.

Leviticus 12:But if she bear a maid child, then she shall be unclean two weeks, as in her separation: and she shall continue in the blood of her purifying threescore and six days. ))

[QUOTE="Sitri_"]So when Lans, or anyone really, says "you need to have the holy spirit to understand scripture," what that means to me is that "You have to believe what you know isn't true. You have to fight an uphill battle to try and make it make sense. And then you get the rewards of feeling good, and others that do the same tricks will feel good with you." subrosian

In your experience, the people involved are not intentionally evil - they believe (or want to) and are sharing their belief in the way they know to be most effective. Yet, for them to go about setting up camps / revivals, knowing that leads to the most conversions, means on some level they are aware of what they're doing. They are aware the "holy spirt" works best in that setting.

-

Christianity has powerful tools at its disposal - fear of punishment ("you're going to hell"), fear of the unknown ("what's your purpose? What happens after death?"), fear of death ("we can give you eternal life, if you just believe"), acceptance ("we love everyone, come to our church"), socialization ("we're having a church ice cream social"), and straight-forward answers to complex moral questions.

-

I've found that Christianity is a comforting religion, but I've found it impossible to believe in - not because I don't believe there's a god, but because everything in it is so apparently man-made. It has all the markers of a social tool, one that was not entirely shaped "innocently".

I don't know about other christians, but when I converted, the after life was the last thing on my mind :/ And I never quite get this "fear of punishment" thing. That isn't christianity or why people should convert.

[QUOTE="subrosian"]

[QUOTE="Sitri_"]So when Lans, or anyone really, says "you need to have the holy spirit to understand scripture," what that means to me is that "You have to believe what you know isn't true. You have to fight an uphill battle to try and make it make sense. And then you get the rewards of feeling good, and others that do the same tricks will feel good with you." 123625

In your experience, the people involved are not intentionally evil - they believe (or want to) and are sharing their belief in the way they know to be most effective. Yet, for them to go about setting up camps / revivals, knowing that leads to the most conversions, means on some level they are aware of what they're doing. They are aware the "holy spirt" works best in that setting.

-

Christianity has powerful tools at its disposal - fear of punishment ("you're going to hell"), fear of the unknown ("what's your purpose? What happens after death?"), fear of death ("we can give you eternal life, if you just believe"), acceptance ("we love everyone, come to our church"), socialization ("we're having a church ice cream social"), and straight-forward answers to complex moral questions.

-

I've found that Christianity is a comforting religion, but I've found it impossible to believe in - not because I don't believe there's a god, but because everything in it is so apparently man-made. It has all the markers of a social tool, one that was not entirely shaped "innocently".

I don't know about other christians, but when I converted, the after life was the last thing on my mind :/ And I never quite get this "fear of punishment" thing. That isn't christianity or why people should convert.

[QUOTE="MetalGear_Ninty"][QUOTE="Funky_Llama"][QUOTE="SSBFan12"][QUOTE="GabuEx"]

[QUOTE="SSBFan12"]I see.Funky_Llama

If there's something that hasn't been clear, I'd be happy to explain; my intention is not to argue by quantity. :P

Isn't he?

We've been over this, silly. :P

[QUOTE="Funky_Llama"][QUOTE="MetalGear_Ninty"][QUOTE="Funky_Llama"][QUOTE="SSBFan12"][QUOTE="GabuEx"]

[QUOTE="SSBFan12"]I see.GabuEx

If there's something that hasn't been clear, I'd be happy to explain; my intention is not to argue by quantity. :P

Isn't he?

We've been over this, silly. :P

Huh, well that clears it up a little. I never knew what you believed...

Huh, well that clears it up a little. I never knew what you believed... RadBooley

I have a tendency to argue more in an attempt to root out what I see as logical fallacies than to actually attempt to convince others of what I personally believe. I myself am not 100% convinced of what I believe, so it would be weird for me to dedicate my time to convince other people of them. As such, the points of view for which I'm advocating tend often not to be precisely what I believe.

We've been over this, silly. :P

GabuEx

[QUOTE="RadBooley"]Huh, well that clears it up a little. I never knew what you believed... GabuEx

I have a tendency to argue more in an attempt to root out what I see as logical fallacies than to actually attempt to convince others of what I personally believe. I myself am not 100% convinced of what I believe, so it would be weird for me to dedicate my time to convince other people of them. As such, the points of view for which I'm advocating tend often not to be precisely what I believe.

[QUOTE="GabuEx"]

[QUOTE="RadBooley"]Huh, well that clears it up a little. I never knew what you believed... SSBFan12

I have a tendency to argue more in an attempt to root out what I see as logical fallacies than to actually attempt to convince others of what I personally believe. I myself am not 100% convinced of what I believe, so it would be weird for me to dedicate my time to convince other people of them. As such, the points of view for which I'm advocating tend often not to be precisely what I believe.

Catholics are Christians.

I don't mean to stringent, but making that mistake can get your fingers burnt.

So your not a christian or a catholic?SSBFan12

I would prefer not to label myself. :P

[QUOTE="SSBFan12"]So your not a christian or a catholic?GabuEx

I would prefer not to label myself. :P

Honestly though, I just thought at the moment I introduced myself that that was the appropriate thing to say. But honestly I hate to even mention something about my spirituality because I think that such a thing is so personal and bears no obligation as to make up your mind for the rest of your life. I would be stupid if I said that I will never change my mind to the moment I die. In fact I don't think I ever will... :( Besides I don't consider that someone HAS to choose something. Because some people feel this urge to gain an identity and display it, so as to fit somewhere (metaphorically), to start building their lives around that identity and make it part of themselves. I don;t feel that urge. I feel the exact opposite...

Someone needs to point this out to the CWU. >_>

Funky_Llama

I'd like to know exactly where one of our members has ever, even once, suggested that people should believe in God because if they don't they will be punished.  

Me neither. In fact I don't think if I am actually an agnostic. Boy, what a confusion. :P

Honestly though, I just thought at the moment I introduced myself that that was the appropriate thing to say. But honestly I hate to even mention something about my spirituality because I think that such a thing is so personal and bears no obligation as to make up your mind for the rest of your life. I would be stupid if I said that I will never change my mind to the moment I die. In fact I don't think I ever will... :( Besides I don't consider that someone HAS to choose something. Because some people feel this urge to gain an identity and display it, so as to fit somewhere (metaphorically), to start building their lives around that identity and make it part of themselves. I don;t feel that urge. I feel the exact opposite...

Teenaged

Yeah, I know what you mean. There are times where I almost envy people who can truly believe that they have the universe neatly wrapped up in a tight package, because it seems to make things so much simpler.

I could never do that, though. I guess the Holy Spirit just gave up on me. :P

[QUOTE="Funky_Llama"]

Someone needs to point this out to the CWU. >_>

Lansdowne5

I'd like to know exactly where one of our members has ever, even once, suggested that people should believe in God because if they don't they will be punished.  

I'd like to know exactly where one of our members has ever, even once, suggested that people should believe in God because if they don't they will be punished.  

Lansdowne5

Isn't the central premise of the ever popularly touted Way of the Master technique that without god you deserve to burn for eternity?  

[QUOTE="Lansdowne5"]

I'd like to know exactly where one of our members has ever, even once, suggested that people should believe in God because if they don't they will be punished.

Sitri_

Isn't the central premise of the ever popularly touted Way of the Master technique that without god you deserve to burn for eternity?

[QUOTE="Sitri_"][QUOTE="Lansdowne5"]

I'd like to know exactly where one of our members has ever, even once, suggested that people should believe in God because if they don't they will be punished.

SSBFan12

Isn't the central premise of the ever popularly touted Way of the Master technique that without god you deserve to burn for eternity?

[QUOTE="Teenaged"]

Me neither. In fact I don't think if I am actually an agnostic. Boy, what a confusion. :P

Honestly though, I just thought at the moment I introduced myself that that was the appropriate thing to say. But honestly I hate to even mention something about my spirituality because I think that such a thing is so personal and bears no obligation as to make up your mind for the rest of your life. I would be stupid if I said that I will never change my mind to the moment I die. In fact I don't think I ever will... :( Besides I don't consider that someone HAS to choose something. Because some people feel this urge to gain an identity and display it, so as to fit somewhere (metaphorically), to start building their lives around that identity and make it part of themselves. I don;t feel that urge. I feel the exact opposite...

GabuEx

Yeah, I know what you mean. There are times where I almost envy people who can truly believe that they have the universe neatly wrapped up in a tight package, because it seems to make things so much simpler.

I could never do that, though. I guess the Holy Spirit just gave up on me. :P

I guess the Holy Spirit is quite selctive those days. With the population growth and all, some people will just have to wait in the line. :PTeenaged

I've also noticed that the Holy Spirit seems to have just given up in the Middle East and Asia; the Western world seems to be the only places where people actually listen to him... :P

That's another thing I've never understood: how people who claim that there is tons of evidence in favor of Christianity to the exclusion of all other religions reconcile that idea with the fact that - surprise, surprise - a person who is born in a Christian nation tends to be Christian while a person who is born in a non-Christian nation tends to be non-Christian. Seems a lot more to me like confirmation bias than anything.

[QUOTE="Teenaged"]I guess the Holy Spirit is quite selctive those days. With the population growth and all, some people will just have to wait in the line. :PGabuEx

I've also noticed that the Holy Spirit seems to have just given up in the Middle East and Asia; the Western world seems to be the only places where people actually listen to him... :P

That's another thing I've never understood: how people who claim that there is tons of evidence in favor of Christianity to the exclusion of all other religions reconcile that idea with the fact that - surprise, surprise - a person who is born in a Christian nation tends to be Christian while a person who is born in a non-Christian nation tends to be non-Christian. Seems a lot more to me like confirmation bias than anything.

I have seen them calling atheists "elusive eels", while they are the ones that elude a conversation whenever it's possible. And I am saying all this just imagining what one of them might answer to the red part!

[QUOTE="Teenaged"]I guess the Holy Spirit is quite selctive those days. With the population growth and all, some people will just have to wait in the line. :PGabuEx

I've also noticed that the Holy Spirit seems to have just given up in the Middle East and Asia; the Western world seems to be the only places where people actually listen to him... :P

That's another thing I've never understood: how people who claim that there is tons of evidence in favor of Christianity to the exclusion of all other religions reconcile that idea with the fact that - surprise, surprise - a person who is born in a Christian nation tends to be Christian while a person who is born in a non-Christian nation tends to be non-Christian. Seems a lot more to me like confirmation bias than anything.

I think most of the 'evidence' tends to be in the form of negative arguments.

They argue there are gaps in the theory of Evolution, Big Bang Theory etc, so then they are wrong and it must have been God instead.

Scientists are trying to explain events that happened billions of years ago whilst having extremely limited access to the universe itself. Forgive them if they are not 100%. It seems to me that Christians try to disprove scientific theories more than actually trying to prove their own.

I would imagine someone that is fed Christianity throughout their whole childhood would definetely find it diffficult and disorienting to become anything other than Christian.

I think most of the 'evidence' tends to be in the form of negative arguments.

They argue there are gaps in the theory of Evolution, Big Bang Theory etc, so then they are wrong and it must have been God instead.

Scientists are trying to explain events that happened billions of years ago whilst having extremely limited access to the universe itself. Forgive them if they are not 100%. It seems to me that Christians try to disprove scientific theories more than actually trying to prove their own.

I would imagine someone that is fed Christianity throughout their whole childhood would definetely find it diffficult and disorienting to become anything other than Christian.

dallbowl

Well, I don't know, I will give some credit for attempting to provide actual evidence in favor of the validity of the Bible like eyewitness accounts or fulfilled prophecies or whatnot. Never seems much more than a combination of retroactive interpretation and "the Bible says so and the Bible is true therefore it is so", though. I also have to give Islam and mainline-to-liberal Christianity credit, too, for actually working new scientific discoveries into their faith rather than rejecting every single thing science says that isn't in accordance with their preconceived interpretations of their holy book.

I think most of the 'evidence' tends to be in the form of negative arguments.

dallbowl

Well yeah....

But atheism is pretty much just one big negative argument in itself. It's predicated mostly on the utter inadequacy of argument for Gods rather than upon the strengths of the arguments against Gods.

[QUOTE="dallbowl"]

I think most of the 'evidence' tends to be in the form of negative arguments.

domatron23

Well yeah....

But atheism is pretty much just one big negative argument in itself. It's predicated mostly on the utter inadequacy of argument for Gods rather than upon the strengths of the arguments against Gods.

I would think that it has to be that way because it is the latter of the two, and because Religion painted an entire worldview before considering any empirical evidence for God's existence. One would assume that the burden is on Religion to prove God's existence, not to disprove everything else.

[QUOTE="Lansdowne5"]

[QUOTE="Funky_Llama"]

Someone needs to point this out to the CWU. >_>

Funky_Llama

I'd like to know exactly where one of our members has ever, even once, suggested that people should believe in God because if they don't they will be punished.  

No it isn't. And if you think it is you've obviously missed the whole point.

More from asinine in genesis

God likes the sacrificing of animals but not of crops.  Without the central nervous system ensuring that they suffer, what you are giving up for him, just isn't that desirable.

4:3 And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD.4:4And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering: 4:5But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.

---------

God initiates a holocaust for his own benefit.

6:7And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air;for it repenteth me that I have made them. 

 7:4 For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth. 

-----------------

Here noah gets drunk and passes out naked, one of his sons sees him but doesn't warn the brothers, who see him and cover him.  A drunken noah wakes up pissed and puts a curse of slavery on his grandson, the son of his son that didn't cover his drunk ass while naked............Then noah lives a really long time.  What the ****

 9:20 And Noah began to be an husbandman, and he planted a vineyard:

9:21 And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent.

9:29And all the days of Noah were nine hundred and fifty years: and he died.

-----------------------

Abram tells his wife to lie and say she is actually his sister.  The pharaoh falls for this lie and god sends a plague on the land of the pharaoh to punish him for indiscretions with a married woman.

12:13Say, I pray thee, thouart my sister: that it may be well with me for thy sake; and my soul shall live because of thee.

12:19 Why saidst thou, She is my sister? so I might have taken her to me to wife: now therefore behold thy wife, take her, and go thy way.

-------------------------------

Abram tells this tells his wife to beat her slave.  After the slave runs a way but an angel shows up and tells her to go back and be a good slave. 

16:6But Abram said unto Sarai, Behold, thy maid is in thine hand; do to her as it pleaseth thee. And when Sarai dealt hardly with her, she fled from her face.

16:7 And the angel of the LORD found her by a fountain of water in the wilderness, by the fountain in the way to Shur. 16:8 And he said, Hagar, Sarai's maid, whence camest thou? and whither wilt thou go? And she said, I flee from the face of my mistress Sarai.

 16:9And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Return to thy mistress, and submit thyself under her hands.

-----------------------

God's intelligent design needs some help from the little guys, so god tells Abram that he must cut the penises of all his family and all his slaves to bring them up to par.

17:12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed. 17:13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.

-----------

God and abraham do a little haggling over how many good people it is ok for god to kill in the efforts of killing bad people.  Evidently children and babies don't count towards this number, because later god does kill them all.

18:23 And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked? 

18:24 Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein?

 18:31 And he said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the LORD: Peradventure there shall be twenty found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for twenty's sake. 

18:32 And he said, Oh let not the LORD be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for ten's sake.

------------------------

 Lot's wife commits the most grievous of sins by looking back at a city god is killing so he turns her into salt......

19:26But his wife looked back from behind him, and she became a pillar of salt.

------------------

Once again we find abraham telling a king that his wife is really his sister to trick him.  The king thinks she is available but doesn't actually touch her, so god threatens to punish him for his lecherous thoughts of another man's wife unless he makes a mends.  When he asked abraham why he has lied to him, abraham says "I only deceived you, she is my half sister also and this is an incestuous relationship."  The king buys off Abraham so it is ok that he had desires for his wife/sister.

More from asinine in genesis

 

....

 Sitri_

Nice (?) finds.

God likes the sacrificing of animals but not of crops.  Without the central nervous system ensuring that they suffer, what you are giving up for him, just isn't that desirable.

Sitri_

In Old Testament days blood was considered the life of a being. To take the blood of a being was to take the life of it. You can't do that with crops, and thus God wanted the sacrifice of animals, living beings. 

God initiates a holocaust for his own benefit.

Sitri_

Yes, He wiped the unrighteous off the Earth because "His heart was filled with pain". All they were doing was causing destruction and breeding a murderous race of immoral, ungodly people. He decided to change that, possibly for his own benefit . . . . but more so for the Creation which He loved and wanted the best for. :)

Here noah gets drunk and passes out naked, one of his sons sees him but doesn't warn the brothers, who see him and cover him.  A drunken noah wakes up pissed and puts a curse of slavery on his grandson, the son of his son that didn't cover his drunk ass while naked............Then noah lives a really long time.  What the ****

Sitri_

Such mistunderstanding. :(

There's actually two possible explanations for why Noah cursed Canaan:

1. Because it was more painful for his father to see him suffer than for his father to suffer himself.

2. Canaan was somehow involved in the incident, thereby bringing Noah's curse upon himself.

God's spirit was still contending with ours when Noah was alive, that's why he lived so long. Read through the genealogies and you'll see that from the time Adam sinned to the time of Jesus the life expectancy gradually declined through every generation. 

Abram tells his wife to lie and say she is actually his sister.  The pharaoh falls for this lie and god sends a plague on the land of the pharaoh to punish him for indiscretions with a married woman.

Sitri_

Meh, Abram was wrong in what he did. Aren't all human beings at some point in their lives, though?

Anyway, Sarah WAS actually his sister: "She is indeed my sister, the daughter of my father but not the daughter of my mother; and she became my wife." - Genesis 20:12. You're right that he still hoodwinked him though, and it doesn't explain why God punished the pharoah, yet not Abram. 

What you need to understand here, is that God had just established a covenent with Abram prior to this event. It seems that Abraham's actions necessitated the need to re-establish this covenant. 

Abram tells this tells his wife to beat her slave.  After the slave runs a way but an angel shows up and tells her to go back and be a good slave. 

Sitri_

This is correct . . . . . the slave should have been obedient to her master. 

God's intelligent design needs some help from the little guys, so god tells Abram that he must cut the penises of all his family and all his slaves to bring them up to par.

Sitri_

This was to represent the fact that they were under the Old Covenant. That they were men of God. :)

Lot's wife commits the most grievous of sins by looking back at a city god is killing so he turns her into salt......

Sitri_

It is partly symbollic of the fact that she was seeking to cling to her luxurious life in Sodom. God gave a warning . . . but she dismissed it. 

Once again we find abraham telling a king that his wife is really his sister to trick him.  The king thinks she is available but doesn't actually touch her, so god threatens to punish him for his lecherous thoughts of another man's wife unless he makes a mends.  When he asked abraham why he has lied to him, abraham says "I only deceived you, she is my half sister also and this is an incestuous relationship."  The king buys off Abraham so it is ok that he had desires for his wife/sister.

Sitri_

God was testing the king. Abraham 'was' the chosen, so God decided to let his deceit go. 

Some from the NT for Teenaged

Mark

When Jesus wants John to baptize him, John is confused because why would he baptise someone who is already supposed to be perfect?  Jesus tells him to just do it and don't think too much about it.

3:14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

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The spirit, which is Jesus, leads himself out into the wilderness to be tempted where no one can see what is going on but himself.  Just who is god trying to impress with this schizophrenic display?

4:1Then was Jesus led up of the spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.

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Jesus condones self mutilation

5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.  5:30And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

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Jesus specifically tells christians that the whole swearing on the bible thing pisses him off, yet many of them got all uppity because Obama must not be a proper christian because he didn't swear on the bible during his redo swear in.

5:34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:

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Jesus says jews go to hell.

8:10When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.8:11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.8:12But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

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A dude is morning his dead father and wants to bury him, jesus says.....well you read it, not exactly mister compassion.

8:21And another of his disciples said unto him, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father. 8:22But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.

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God dwells in demons and demons dwell in god.

8:28 And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way. 8:29And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time? 

compared to 1 john 4:15Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

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Jesus exercises these demons that dwell in god and god in them; he does this by sending them into a herd of pigs which all run into the ocean and die.

8:32And he said unto them, Go. And when they were come out, they went into the herd of swine: and, behold, the whole herd of swine ran violently down a steep place into the sea, and perished in the waters.

The funny part is after jesus kills their pigs, the towns people tell him to get the hell out of here.

8:34And, behold, the whole city came out to meet Jesus: and when they saw him, they besought him that he would depart out of their coasts.

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Jesus says don't try to save the gentiles, try to save the jews.  He also tells them that they now have magical powers but like his own miracles, there really isn't any outside evidence for this and as far as I can tell the bible never really confirms these powers.

10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:10:6But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.10:7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. 10:8Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

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Jesus says families will be torn apart because of the missionary work of he and the apostles.

10:21 And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death.

he continues on to let you know how important this is to him

10:34Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

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After john hears about this crazy **** that jesus wants to do with the tearing up of families damning entire cities, he is unsure if jesus is really god.  Jesus reassures john by having some other people tell him that they saw jesus perform miracles......Pretty skimpy evidence since john was supposed to have already seen some of Jesus' miracles himself.

11:3 And said unto him, Art thou he that should come, or do we look for another? 11:4 Jesus answered and said unto them, Go and shew John again those things which ye do hear and see: 11:5 The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them.

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Right after answering john, jesus says no greater man born of woman (himself not noted as an exception) has ever existed.  And the he goes on to talk about war and it seems like he thinks john is already dead.

11:11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.11:12And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.

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Jesus damns whole cities, even ones that are apparently good places and looked favorably on by heaven because they don't care for his teachings.

11:21Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.

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Jesus thanks god, himself, for tricking rational people into not believing his words so they might be damned.

11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

........I need a break I will finish reading Mark again later.

Such mistunderstanding. :(

There's actually two possible explanations for why Noah cursed Canaan:

1. Because it was more painful for his father to see him suffer than for his father to suffer himself.

2. Canaan was somehow involved in the incident, thereby bringing Noah's curse upon himself.

God's spirit was still contending with ours when Noah was alive, that's why he lived so long. Read through the genealogies and you'll see that from the time Adam sinned to the time of Jesus the life expectancy gradually declined through every generation. 

Lansdowne5

Oh spare me.

Some from the NT for Teenaged

....Sitri_

It's just that Orthodox people consider the OT to be severly outdated, and that the NT is an improved version. So in my mind, even before questioning everything the OT was out of the question as a way of life or as words of wisdom *cough*. (Not that it wouldn't be apparent anyway).

The bottom line of course is that both OT and NT contain absurd things, just that OT is rather full of those absurd things.

I will read those later.

[QUOTE="Sitri_"]

God likes the sacrificing of animals but not of crops.  Without the central nervous system ensuring that they suffer, what you are giving up for him, just isn't that desirable.

Lansdowne5

In Old Testament days blood was considered the life of a being. To take the blood of a being was to take the life of it. You can't do that with crops, and thus God wanted the sacrifice of animals, living beings. 

If god is immutable, then why was his morality always just on par with that of the people at the time?

[QUOTE="Sitri_"]

God initiates a holocaust for his own benefit.

Lansdowne5

Yes, He wiped the unrighteous off the Earth because "His heart was filled with pain". All they were doing was causing destruction and breeding a murderous race of immoral, ungodly people. He decided to change that, possibly for his own benefit . . . . but more so for the Creation which He loved and wanted the best for. :)

Unrighteous, including children, babies, and animals.  I have a hard time thinking god was exercising prudent judgement.  If only there was an easier way for an omnipotent being to make everyone worship him more.

[QUOTE="Sitri_"]

Here noah gets drunk and passes out naked, one of his sons sees him but doesn't warn the brothers, who see him and cover him.  A drunken noah wakes up pissed and puts a curse of slavery on his grandson, the son of his son that didn't cover his drunk ass while naked............Then noah lives a really long time.  What the ****

Lansdowne5

Such mistunderstanding. :(

There's actually two possible explanations for why Noah cursed Canaan:

1. Because it was more painful for his father to see him suffer than for his father to suffer himself.

2. Canaan was somehow involved in the incident, thereby bringing Noah's curse upon himself.

God's spirit was still contending with ours when Noah was alive, that's why he lived so long. Read through the genealogies and you'll see that from the time Adam sinned to the time of Jesus the life expectancy gradually declined through every generation. 

1.  This is not a good example of morality for one of god's chosen patriarchs.

2.  It clearly says, he knew what his younger son had done, so he curses his son.  There is no hint the grandson did anything.

Contending with ours?  Omnipotence. But lets follow that train of thought, if people used to live longer, why do they sexual mature quicker than we think is prudent to bear kids?  This suggest to me from an evolutionary point of view, people used to live shorter lives, so it was needed to reproduce more quickly.  And why is life expectancy now rising? 

[QUOTE="Sitri_"]

Abram tells his wife to lie and say she is actually his sister.  The pharaoh falls for this lie and god sends a plague on the land of the pharaoh to punish him for indiscretions with a married woman.

Lansdowne5

Meh, Abram was wrong in what he did. Aren't all human beings at some point in their lives, though?

Anyway, Sarah WAS actually his sister: "She is indeed my sister, the daughter of my father but not the daughter of my mother; and she became my wife." - Genesis 20:12. You're right that he still hoodwinked him though, and it doesn't explain why God punished the pharoah, yet not Abram. 

What you need to understand here, is that God had just established a covenent with Abram prior to this event. It seems that Abraham's actions necessitated the need to re-establish this covenant.

If it is wrong, why is the protagonist of this book about morality doing it?  Also does this condone incest?  And why does god feel obligated to a contract which is rewards chicanery?

[QUOTE="Sitri_"]

Abram tells his wife to beat her slave.  After the slave runs a way but an angel shows up and tells her to go back and be a good slave. 

Lansdowne5

This is correct . . . . . the slave should have been obedient to her master.

....you condone slavery and the beating of slaves?

[QUOTE="Sitri_"]

God's intelligent design needs some help from the little guys, so god tells Abram that he must cut the penises of all his family and all his slaves to bring them up to par.

Lansdowne5

This was to represent the fact that they were under the Old Covenant. That they were men of God. :)

Since presumably only a handful of people know, couldn't it just be a private understanding between god and the people without genital mutilation?

[QUOTE="Sitri_"]

Lot's wife commits the most grievous of sins by looking back at a city god is killing so he turns her into salt......

Lansdowne5

It is partly symbollic of the fact that she was seeking to cling to her luxurious life in Sodom. God gave a warning . . . but she dismissed it. 

So do you think it really happened?

[QUOTE="Sitri_"]

Once again we find abraham telling a king that his wife is really his sister to trick him.  The king thinks she is available but doesn't actually touch her, so god threatens to punish him for his lecherous thoughts of another man's wife unless he makes a mends.  When he asked abraham why he has lied to him, abraham says "I only deceived you, she is my half sister also and this is an incestuous relationship."  The king buys off Abraham so it is ok that he had desires for his wife/sister.

Lansdowne5

God was testing the king. Abraham 'was' the chosen, so God decided to let his deceit go. 

Isn't this the crux of the problem.  People what to claim that they have some divine right to abuse the system and others because they think they have gods favor and someone else doesn't?  And really just what was god testing?

When Jesus wants John to baptize him, John is confused because why would he baptise someone who is already supposed to be perfect?  Jesus tells him to just do it and don't think too much about it.

Sitri_

Tell me, what EXACTLY is the problem here? The reason Jesus wanted John to baptize him was so that he could demonstrate, through the process of Baptism in the water, the fact that he was associating with our sin, the fact that he would take 'our' place, so that we could be set free. 

Also, you said it was the Gospel of Mark you were quoting . . . . it was actually the Gospel of Matthew. :)

 

The spirit, which is Jesus, leads himself out into the wilderness to be tempted where no one can see what is going on but himself.  Just who is god trying to impress with this schizophrenic display?

Sitri_

First, the Spirit isn't the same as Jesus. The Spirit is one of the person's of God, Jesus is another. And he's not trying to impress anyone. What on earth gave you that impression? 

  

Jesus condones self mutilation

Sitri_

Sure he does. Just like when I say, "I'm so hungry I could eat a horse" I actually mean I could eat a horse. ;)

 

Jesus specifically tells christians that the whole swearing on the bible thing ****** him off, yet many of them got all uppity because Obama must not be a proper christian because he didn't swear on the bible during his redo swear in.

Sitri_

He knows we can't keep promises. So he tells us to let our yes be yes and are no be no, instead of swearing that we'll do something and then not following through. 

 

Jesus says jews go to hell.

Sitri_

Obviously, because the only way to Heaven is by Jesus, and Jews don't accept Jesus as the Son of God. If they were to accept him, however, he's waiting with open arms for each and every one of them. :)

 

A dude is morning his dead father and wants to bury him, jesus says.....well you read it, not exactly mister compassion.

Sitri_

1. We don't know his father was actually dead. Many Bible commentators have concluded that what the disciple was actually asking was to stay home and wait until his father 'was' dead and then bury him.

2. Jesus often teaches that the duty of the Lord is far more important than any earthly duty. If one has to choose between the two, they must choose the more important one.

  

God dwells in demons and demons dwell in god.

Sitri_

Demons dwell in God? Where'd you get that one from? I think you might be misreading the verses . . . . Basically all they're saying is that Jesus came to release men from the power and enslavement of the Devil. 

  

Jesus exercises these demons that dwell in god and god in them; he does this by sending them into a herd of pigs which all run into the ocean and die.

Sitri_

Again, why have you concluded that the demons dwell in god? That's not what the text says.  

  

The funny part is after jesus kills their pigs, the towns people tell him to get the hell out of here.

Sitri_

If I came into your village and killed a hundred of your pigs, I don't suppose you'd be too pleased either. Bare in mind that they would have been they're only source of income. 

 

Jesus says don't try to save the gentiles, try to save the jews.  He also tells them that they now have magical powers but like his own miracles

Sitri_

This is correct.

 

Jesus says families will be torn apart because of the missionary work of he and the apostles.

Sitri_

You need to look into the text for the true meaning, Sitri. You can't just skim along the edge of it looking for errors and hope to discover the full meaning.

What Jesus is saying is that there will be families where one person accepts Him and as such the rest of the family will turn against them. They will become their bitter enemies because of that person's faith in Christ. 

  

he continues on to let you know how important this is to him

Sitri_

Indeed. He is preparing the disciples for the tribulations to come, and the persecution which would be caused because of Him. 

 

After john hears about this crazy **** that jesus wants to do with the tearing up of families damning entire cities, he is unsure if jesus is really god.  Jesus reassures john by having some other people tell him that they saw jesus perform miracles......Pretty skimpy evidence since john was supposed to have already seen some of Jesus' miracles himself.

Sitri_

You sometimes doubt things, even if you 'have' seen them with your own eyes. Jesus was simply reassuring him of his faith. 

 

Right after answering john, jesus says no greater man born of woman (himself not noted as an exception) has ever existed.  And the he goes on to talk about war and it seems like he thinks john is already dead.

Sitri_

Obviously, Jesus wouldn't refer to himself. He was referring to mortal men. 

 

Jesus damns whole cities, even ones that are apparently good places and looked favorably on by heaven because they don't care for his teachings.

Sitri_

Well Ya, "no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." - John 14:6.

Also, Mighty =/= Good. ;)

  

Jesus thanks god, himself, for tricking rational people into not believing his words so they might be damned.

Sitri_

Sure he does. Whatever you say! :lol:

Reading what the text ACTUALLY SAYS, though, God had hidden the things from the wise and prudent, and revealed it to the babies. I see nothing about 'why' he did it? Let alone "He did it so they would be damned"?

What the Lord is saying here, is that although many men claim to be wise, they will not believe in God, and thus are no wiser than the babies, who will actually believe something without always questioning it.

........I need a break I will finish reading Mark again later.

Sitri_

I'll look forward to later. :) 

Mat 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Mat 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Mark 9:1 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.

Mark 13:30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.

Luke 21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

 

We can thank these gems for such nonsensical antisemitic dogma as The Wandering Jew. 

Sitri_

Mat 16:28  Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

It was confirmed in Act's I think that 500 people saw Jesus ascend to the right hand of God. Thus fulfilling that prophecy.

Mat 23:34  Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
Mat 23:35  That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
Mat 23:36  Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

:lol: he was clearly NOT talking about the end of the world but the christian persecution that happened after Jesus died. He doesn't start talking about the end until mathew 24:3

Mat 24:3  And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall thesethings be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
Mat 24:4  And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

Now, notice how he says "take heed that no man decieve you"  Keyword, YOU. He says YOU after they ask about the end of the world. Thus proving that his target audience is clearly for the generation of the people that see the end. So when we get here

Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. 

Its clear that he's talking about the generation of the end times.

And the whole mark and luke things are just re saying the same thing with diffrent wording. 

Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. 

Its clear that he's talking about the generation of the end times.

Silenthps

[QUOTE="Sitri_"]

Mat 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Mat 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Mark 9:1 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.

Mark 13:30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.

Luke 21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

 

We can thank these gems for such nonsensical antisemitic dogma as The Wandering Jew. 

Silenthps

Mat 16:28  Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

It was confirmed in Act's I think that 500 people saw Jesus ascend to the right hand of God. Thus fulfilling that prophecy.

Mat 23:34  Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
Mat 23:35  That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
Mat 23:36  Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

:lol: he was clearly NOT talking about the end of the world but the christian persecution that happened after Jesus died. He doesn't start talking about the end until mathew 24:3

Mat 24:3  And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall thesethings be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
Mat 24:4  And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

Now, notice how he says "take heed that no man decieve you"  Keyword, YOU. He says YOU after they ask about the end of the world. Thus proving that his target audience is clearly for the generation of the people that see the end. So when we get here

Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. 

Its clear that he's talking about the generation of the end times.

And the whole mark and luke things are just re saying the same thing with diffrent wording. 

Jesus both preached the Kingdom of God as here and not yet.  Basically the kingdom begins to be ushered in at the resurrection of Christ but is not completely ushered in until the Day of the Lord, Jesus' return.  2 Thes. was actually written in part because people were no longer working and literally waiting for Jesus to come back.  Christians are to live their lives as if the Lord could return at any moment, but he may very well wait another generation.

btw, this is my understanding of the text.  Eschatology is not my forte.

[QUOTE="Silenthps"]

Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. 

Its clear that he's talking about the generation of the end times.

Funky_Llama

[QUOTE="Funky_Llama"][QUOTE="Silenthps"]

Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. 

Its clear that he's talking about the generation of the end times.

Silenthps

Again... what? :lol:

[QUOTE="Silenthps"][QUOTE="Funky_Llama"][QUOTE="Silenthps"]

Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. 

Its clear that he's talking about the generation of the end times.

Funky_Llama

Again... what? :lol:

Ok so at Matthew 24:3 His diciples ask Jesus what the signs for the end of the world would be. So when your reading Mat 24:34 you have to do it in the context of him talking about the generation of the end of the world. 

[QUOTE="Funky_Llama"][QUOTE="Silenthps"][QUOTE="Funky_Llama"][QUOTE="Silenthps"]

Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. 

Its clear that he's talking about the generation of the end times.

Silenthps

Again... what? :lol:

Ok so at Matthew 24:3 His diciples ask Jesus what the signs for the end of the world would be. So when your reading Mat 24:34 you have to do it in the context of him talking about the generation of the end of the world.