Paedophilia in Islam

[QUOTE="ghoklebutter"]

1. You didn't read my post, did you? Translating that verse as "girls who have never menstruated" is not in accordance with Arabic grammar. LAM is used for negating in the past tense. LAA is used for negating every tense. There is a difference and it's clear. Don't you know any Arabic? Aisha is irrelevant right now.

Sanitarium1

Are you a native Arabic speaker? The reason I ask is because that portion of the article (the Arabic Analysis) was written by native speakers who speak this language every day. Furthermore it is backed by classical Arabic lexicons. Also no native speaker has been able to fault that article yet, so I wish to know if you speak Arabic.

If you do speak Arabic, is it MSA or Classical? Thanks muchly :)

I don't speak full Arabic, but I at least know how negation (and the negative particles) works in Arabic. I'm learning a bit of both since I'm taking this extra course for Qur'an exegesis and normal everyday talk.

Ghokle,

You say you dont even speak full arabic and you're saying 10 Islamic Scholars who wrote the Tafirs dont know their stuff. Good stuff. Thats like a little boy who knows how to open a car door telling a car mechanic he doesnt know anything about cars.

While you're taking that Quran exegesis course, explore the meaning of 4:34 and then ask your teacher why your favourite Yusuf Ali too translated 4:34 to ask husbands to beat their wives if they dont obey them. Pickthall and Shakir translated it the same. Why? Because thats what the Quran says. Aisha himself was beaten by Muhammad on the chest causing her pain, atleast once. Once again Quran and hadith coincide with each other.

Ghokle,

You say you dont even speak full arabic and you're saying 10 Islamic Scholars who wrote the Tafirs dont know their stuff. Good stuff. Thats like a little boy who knows how to open a car door telling a car mechanic he doesnt know anything about cars.

While you're taking that Quran exegesis course, explore the meaning of 4:34 and then ask your teacher why your favourite Yusuf Ali too translated 4:34 to ask husbands to beat their wives if they dont obey them. Pickthall and Shakir translated it the same. Why? Because thats what the Quran says. Aisha himself was beaten by Muhammad on the chest causing her pain, atleast once. Once again Quran and hadith coincide with each other.

Maxstar1

They are good scholars, no doubt. But lam changes the tense of the verb, laa doesn't. That's why their assessment appears flawed to me. I could be wrong, I'm not making an absolute statement.

Once again you are using the "young people are clueless" argument. I've studied Arabic for at least a year, I very well know how negation works and how the negative particles work. Do you know Arabic?

Also, Yusuf Ali is far from my favorite commentator. He was simply an example. 

You talk as if you're an Islamic scholar yourself.

- But lam changes the tense of the verb, laa doesn't. That's why their assessment appears flawed to me.

Yes 10 well known Islamic scholars must be wrong and you must be right. My bad.

- I could be wrong, I'm not making an absolute statement.

No no, you are right my Ghoklebutter friend. Its those 10 well-known Islamic scholars who must be wrong. They know NOTHING about Arabic as compared to you. They should have learnt arabic from you, you know. They would have learnt so many things they didnt know. Poor guys, I guess they missed out the opportunity.

- I've studied Arabic for at least a year, I very well know how negation works and how the negative particles work. Do you know Arabic?

Does it matter if I know Arabic? The 10 Islamic scholars you've ignored knew Arabic, did they not? Yet you think you know MORE than them when ifnact you are a student of arabic who cant even speak arabic fully yet.

So once again: Muhammad had sex with 9 year old Aisha and this fact has been recorded in hadiths and the correct meaning of Quran 65:4 has been confirmed by the scholars who wrote the Tafsirs.

 I did find the article you copy pasted parts from (it wasnt the whole article so I found it when I googled another part of it)  Answering-Christianity.com

 Its funny by the way when Muslims find faults in Christianity when it was just another religion revealed by ALLAH. Allah failed to protect his religion from corruption. He was powerless to protect it then. He was powerless to protect Islam too and the proof is all over this thread.

You talk as if you're an Islamic scholar yourself.

- But lam changes the tense of the verb, laa doesn't. That's why their assessment appears flawed to me.

Yes 10 well known Islamic scholars must be wrong and you must be right. My bad.

- I could be wrong, I'm not making an absolute statement.

No no, you are right my Ghoklebutter friend. Its those 10 well-known Islamic scholars who must be wrong. They know NOTHING about Arabic as compared to you. They should have learnt arabic from you, you know. They would have learnt so many things they didnt know. Poor guys, I guess they missed out the opportunity.

- I've studied Arabic for at least a year, I very well know how negation works and how the negative particles work. Do you know Arabic?

Does it matter if I know Arabic? The 10 Islamic scholars you've ignored knew Arabic, did they not? Yet you think you know MORE than them when ifnact you are a student of arabic who cant even speak arabic fully yet.

So once again: Muhammad had sex with 9 year old Aisha and this fact has been recorded in hadiths and the correct meaning of Quran 65:4 has been confirmed by the scholars who wrote the Tafsirs.

 I did find the article you copy pasted parts from (it wasnt the whole article so I found it when I googled another part of it)  Answering-Christianity.com

 Its funny by the way when Muslims find faults in Christianity when it was just another religion revealed by ALLAH. Allah failed to protect his religion from corruption. He was powerless to protect it then. He was powerless to protect Islam too and the proof is all over this thread.

Maxstar1

I don't know that much about Islam. I am not a scholar. It's just something I noticed in the article. Let me repeat: I AM NOT A SCHOLAR. They know way more than I do. But like me, they are humans, they make mistakes. Al-Tabari said crazy things like that all women are stupid because Eve menstruated. I never said that they were bad scholars either. Me compared to them is like comparing an atom to a football field. 

Of course they know more than I do. I only know 1/3 of all Arabic. I just know how negation works. Is it that hard to say?

I don't use Answering Christianity anymore because it's a hate-filled website. Oh and I'm sorry I forgot to post the link. I forgot about that.

Let me guess, you're also from WikiIslam, right?

I don't listen to most commentators and scholars because tend to be biased.

ghoklebutter

Let me tell you something about myself. I used to be just as critical on Islam as you. I almost converted to Judiasm because I thought that Islam was a violent, scientifically inaccurate, unpeaceful and sexist religion. Then I realized I was wrong. Why? Because I read a tafsir of the Qur'an. Everything that anti-Muslims say about Islam is pretty much refuted in the tafsir.

ghoklebutter

Well well hmm....

- I don't know that much about Islam. I am not a scholar. ... They know way more than I do.

Good! Then dont go around saying 10 well-known Islamic scholars must have gotten their Tafsirs of the Quran wrong.

- But like me, they are humans, they make mistakes.

Really? What are the chances that TEN of them got it all wrong while you, a student who has been studying arabic for one year only got it right? have you heard of the word "humble"?

- Al-Tabari said crazy things like that all women are stupid because Eve menstruated.

It was BUKHARI (as well) that report Muhammad saying that Women are STUPID:

----------

Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri:

Once Allah's Apostle went out to the Musalla (to offer the prayer) o 'Id-al-Adha or Al-Fitr prayer. Then he passed by the women and said, "O women! Give alms, as I have seen that the majority of the dwellers of Hell-fire were you (women)." They asked, "Why is it so, O Allah's Apostle ?" He replied, "You curse frequently and are ungrateful to your husbands. I have not seen anyone more deficient in intelligence and religion than you. A cautious sensible man could be led astray by some of you." The women asked, "O Allah's Apostle! What is deficient in our intelligence and religion?" He said, "Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?" They replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her intelligence. Isn't it true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her menses?" The women replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her religion." - Sahih Bukhari 1:6:301

----------

- Me compared to them is like comparing an atom to a football field.

Then say what other Muslims say:
1. Allah knows best
2. I dont know, the scholars know best. Please ask them.

- I just know how negation works.

No, you dont know more about negation than those 10 Islamic scholars, sorry. Look up the word humble again.

- Let me guess, you're also from WikiIslam, right?

Irrelevant to the discussion. The discussion is about Quran and pedophilia.

[QUOTE="ghoklebutter"]

I don't listen to most commentators and scholars because tend to be biased.

Gambler_3

Let me tell you something about myself. I used to be just as critical on Islam as you. I almost converted to Judiasm because I thought that Islam was a violent, scientifically inaccurate, unpeaceful and sexist religion. Then I realized I was wrong. Why? Because I read a tafsir of the Qur'an. Everything that anti-Muslims say about Islam is pretty much refuted in the tafsir.

ghoklebutter

Well well hmm....

Lol BUSTED!

[QUOTE="ghoklebutter"]

I don't listen to most commentators and scholars because tend to be biased.

Gambler_3

Let me tell you something about myself. I used to be just as critical on Islam as you. I almost converted to Judiasm because I thought that Islam was a violent, scientifically inaccurate, unpeaceful and sexist religion. Then I realized I was wrong. Why? Because I read a tafsir of the Qur'an. Everything that anti-Muslims say about Islam is pretty much refuted in the tafsir.

ghoklebutter

Well well hmm....

I don't deny that. I've come to realize that the tafsirs like to hide things and are biased. That was an old old post. 

Busted? :?

Answering-christianity is not a hateful site. It was created in response to answering-islam which is a christian site dedicated to attack Islam.

Its funny by the way when Muslims find faults in Christianity when it was just another religion revealed by ALLAH. 

Maxstar1

And from what I have seen, the site mostly attacks christians by finding double standards in their arguments. Like a christian can never attack muhammad for being a pedo as the All-Holy Mary married a 90 year old when she was just 12.:shock:

- I don't know that much about Islam. I am not a scholar. ... They know way more than I do.

Good! Then dont go around saying 10 well-known Islamic scholars must have gotten their Tafsirs of the Quran wrong.

- But like me, they are humans, they make mistakes.

Really? What are the chances that TEN of them got it all wrong while you, a student who has been studying arabic for one year only got it right? have you heard of the word "humble"?

- Al-Tabari said crazy things like that all women are stupid because Eve menstruated.

It was BUKHARI (as well) that report Muhammad saying that Women are STUPID:

----------

Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri:

Once Allah's Apostle went out to the Musalla (to offer the prayer) o 'Id-al-Adha or Al-Fitr prayer. Then he passed by the women and said, "O women! Give alms, as I have seen that the majority of the dwellers of Hell-fire were you (women)." They asked, "Why is it so, O Allah's Apostle ?" He replied, "You curse frequently and are ungrateful to your husbands. I have not seen anyone more deficient in intelligence and religion than you. A cautious sensible man could be led astray by some of you." The women asked, "O Allah's Apostle! What is deficient in our intelligence and religion?" He said, "Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?" They replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her intelligence. Isn't it true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her menses?" The women replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her religion." - Sahih Bukhari 1:6:301

----------

- Me compared to them is like comparing an atom to a football field.

Then say what other Muslims say:
1. Allah knows best
2. I dont know, the scholars know best. Please ask them.

- I just know how negation works.

No, you dont know more about negation than those 10 Islamic scholars, sorry. Look up the word humble again.

- Let me guess, you're also from WikiIslam, right?

Irrelevant to the discussion. The discussion is about Quran and pedophilia.

 

 

 

 

Maxstar1

1. Let me elaborate. I certainly don't know as much as the scholars. I found MYSELF that translating part 65:4 as "and those who never menstruate" is wrong because lam is used, not laa! Prove me wrong grammatically, don't tell me about 10 scholars and their opinions. Give me evidence that I'm wrong about the negation.

2. Once again that is irrelevant. Also, that's not the Hadith I mentioned. It was a COMMENTARY by Al-Tabari. 

3. What's wrong with me saying that? I learned that in Arabic, is there such a crime in me saying that I know how negation works? Even if I don't, I know that lam doesn't function the same as laa.

Answering-christianity is not a hateful site. It was created in response to answering-islam which is a christian site dedicated to attack Islam.

[QUOTE="Maxstar1"]

Its funny by the way when Muslims find faults in Christianity when it was just another religion revealed by ALLAH. 

Gambler_3

And from what I have seen, the site mostly attacks christians by finding double standards in their arguments. Like a christian can never attack muhammad for being a pedo as the All-Holy Mary married a 90 year old when she was just 12.:shock:

LOLWUT. Every "rebuttal" has links saying things like "Slavery in the bible!!!!1". If that's not intolerant I don't know what is.

Their arguments are very weak, I agree. 

[QUOTE="Gambler_3"][QUOTE="ghoklebutter"]

I don't listen to most commentators and scholars because tend to be biased.

ghoklebutter

Let me tell you something about myself. I used to be just as critical on Islam as you. I almost converted to Judiasm because I thought that Islam was a violent, scientifically inaccurate, unpeaceful and sexist religion. Then I realized I was wrong. Why? Because I read a tafsir of the Qur'an. Everything that anti-Muslims say about Islam is pretty much refuted in the tafsir.

ghoklebutter

Well well hmm....

I don't deny that. I've come to realize that the tafsirs like to hide things and are biased. That was an old old post. 

Busted? :?

I would yes that's busted, you used the argument from authority when it suited you and now you have backed off from it when it's not suiting you.

Ghoklebutter

Tafsirs say nothing new. They only explain the Quran and confirm its meaning.

So again, you have yet to respond to why 10 Islamic scholars and the Quran and the hadith are saying one thing, while you, a new fresh student of arabic are saying another and who didnt know jack about Tafsirs and changed his view on them in just a month.

Muhammad was sexually attracted to 6 year old Aisha when the arab man was 51 years old and old enough to her grandfather. Is this the man you idealize and follow?

Look up "Taqiya" as well in addition to: pedophile, humble.

[QUOTE="Gambler_3"]

Answering-christianity is not a hateful site. It was created in response to answering-islam which is a christian site dedicated to attack Islam.

[QUOTE="Maxstar1"]

Its funny by the way when Muslims find faults in Christianity when it was just another religion revealed by ALLAH. 

ghoklebutter

And from what I have seen, the site mostly attacks christians by finding double standards in their arguments. Like a christian can never attack muhammad for being a pedo as the All-Holy Mary married a 90 year old when she was just 12.:shock:

LOLWUT. Every "rebuttal" has links saying things like "Slavery in the bible!!!!1". If that's not intolerant I don't know what is.

Their arguments are very weak, I agree. 

How is that a weak argument? A christian cannot attack muhammad for having kept salves cuz the bible also advocates it, end of story there's not even a debate here.

Their tone is aggressive and hateful cuz that is the way to respond to an equally hateful site in answering-islam. The initiator here is answering-islam so that is the one you can call hateful. Answering-christianity is simply retaliating in an equally aggressive manner which is prefectly reasonable.

So within one month you changed your views? You were louding the tafsir as a life changing one as it reaffirmed your belief in islam when it had got very weak and now it doesnt matter anymore?

I would yes that's busted, you used the argument from authority when it suited you and now you have backed off from it when it's not suiting you.

Gambler_3

The tafsirs basically fooled me. They tried to sugarcoat things but they failed. They're all biased. For the longest time I have relied on tafsirs. You yourself made a point that the tafsirs were biased. I denied it since I was trying to be a goody-goody Muslim. But after awhile I realized that the tafsirs were a joke.

So while I admit I was wrong, I don't see how I'm "busted". 

Because christians attack muhammad for having kept slaves. They are simply showing them the double standards in their arguments.

How is that a weak argument? A christian cannot attack muhammad for having kept salves cuz the bible also advocates it, end of story there's not even a debate here.

Their tone is aggressive and hateful cuz that is the way to respond to an equally hateful site in answering-islam. The initiator here is answering-islam so that is the one you can call hateful. Answering-christianity is simply retaliating in an equally aggressive manner which is prefectly reasonable.

Gambler_3

Well, that is a good point you have there. But I still don't trust either website.

Bold: Wow, that was unexpected of you. No offense.

Muhammad GhokleButter

This ***** (Ediited censor-bypass ~~ MGN) forum software now doesnt even let me use copy paste unless I use Firefox.

- 1. Let me elaborate. I certainly don't know as much as the scholars. I found MYSELF that translating part 65:4 as "and those who never menstruate" is wrong because lam is used, not laa! Prove me wrong grammatically, don't tell me about 10 scholars and their opinions. Give me evidence that I'm wrong about the negation.

The evidence is that your opinions are contradicting those of 10 well known Islamic scholars. That is enough evidence. Provide equally strong evidence that you are right and they are wrong. Further supporting evidence:

1. You were impressed by Tafsirs and said they were the reason why you didnt convert to Judaism. Then just one month later you have now changed your views and said Tafsirs are biased and full of errors.

2. You are a new student of Arabic and cannot speak full arabic therefore you dont know anything about Islam or even arabic.

You said you're not picky about hadith. I'm sure you know Muhammed the arab prescribed camel urine as medicine, in hadith.

Ghoklebutter

Tafsirs say nothing new. They only explain the Quran and confirm its meaning.

So again, you have yet to respond to why 10 Islamic scholars and the Quran and the hadith are saying one thing, while you, a new fresh student of arabic are saying another and who didnt know jack about Tafsirs and changed his view on them in just a month.

Muhammad was sexually attracted to 6 year old Aisha when the arab man was 51 years old and old enough to her grandfather. Is this the man you idealize and follow?

Look up "Taqiya" as well in addition to: pedophile, humble.

Maxstar1

The tafsirs sugarcoat things in the Qur'an. That's why I don't like them.

I don't care about the story of Aisha because this is the 21th century, not the 7th century.

I already know the meaning of those words, thank you sir.

But Tafsirs were the reason why you didnt convert to Judaism, according to your own words.

Now you're saying that Tafsirs are crap, so whats stopping you from converting to Judaism, Muhammad Ghokle?

- I don't care about the story of Aisha because this is the 21th century, not the 7th century.

PRECISELY. Leave Islam TODAY! Its a religion that belongs to the 7th century, not the 21st.

1. Muhammad ghoklebutter? Why did you call me that? Also, censor bypassing is an offense on GS.

My views change a lot. I'm going through a yo-yo phase if you will (not with the tafsirs, but Islam in general).

2. I respect Judaism, but I'm not crazy about it.

3. You are entitled to your opinion.

If the translation is grammatically incorrect (in Arabic) then it's wrong, simple as that. It's just how I see it. It doesn't matter who interprets it, if it's grammatically incorrect. 

I will not leave Islam and I don't plan to for some time. If you wish to continue this debate, calling me Muhammad Ghoklebutter and sticking to your agitated tone is not going to help.

[QUOTE="Gambler_3"]The initiator here is answering-islam so that is the one you can call hateful.

ghoklebutter

Bold: Wow, that was unexpected of you. No offense.

[QUOTE="ghoklebutter"][QUOTE="Gambler_3"]The initiator here is answering-islam so that is the one you can call hateful.

Gambler_3

Bold: Wow, that was unexpected of you. No offense.

I thought you really liked Answering Islam as a source. :P

[QUOTE="Gambler_3"][QUOTE="ghoklebutter"][QUOTE="Gambler_3"]The initiator here is answering-islam so that is the one you can call hateful.

ghoklebutter

Bold: Wow, that was unexpected of you. No offense.

I thought you really liked Answering Islam as a source. :P

- I don't care about the story of Aisha because this is the 21th century, not the 7th century.

PRECISELY. Leave Islam TODAY! Its a religion that belongs to the 7th century, not the 21st.

Maxstar1

[QUOTE="Maxstar1"]

- I don't care about the story of Aisha because this is the 21th century, not the 7th century.

PRECISELY. Leave Islam TODAY! Its a religion that belongs to the 7th century, not the 21st.

Gambler_3

I see what you guys mean :P. But I was talking about Aisha, not Islam. But anyways talking about that will derail the thread.

1. Muhammad ghoklebutter? Why did you call me that? Also, censor bypassing is an offense on GS.

My views change a lot. I'm going through a yo-yo phase if you will (not with the tafsirs, but Islam in general).

2. I respect Judaism, but I'm not crazy about it.

3. You are entitled to your opinion.

If the translation is grammatically incorrect (in Arabic) then it's wrong, simple as that. It's just how I see it. It doesn't matter who interprets it, if it's grammatically incorrect. 

I will not leave Islam and I don't plan to for some time. If you wish to continue this debate, calling me Muhammad Ghoklebutter and sticking to your agitated tone is not going to help.

ghoklebutter

Ok so if thats all you have to say then you have conceded defeat in this thread. In summary:

You ignored the opinions of 10 well known historical Islamic scholars, example of Muhamamd's own Pedophila (Aisha) and proceeded to insert your own opinions while admitting that you have been studying arabic for only one year and that you "certainly don't know as much as the scholars."

Good! It would have saved everyone time if you had said that in the beginning.

I'll end my post with another great teaching from Muhammad:

Allah loves sneezes
Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "Allah loves sneezing but dislikes yawning; so if anyone of you sneezes and then praises Allah, every Muslim who hears him (praising Allah) has to say Tashmit to him. But as regards yawning, it is from Satan, so if one of you yawns, he should try his best to stop it, for when anyone of you yawns, Satan laughs at him."
Sahih Bukhari 8:73:245

Next time you sneeze, Muhamamd Ghokle, know that Allah likes sneezes but dislikes yawning. Tell me though: why would the creator of this vast Universe love sneezing but hate yawning?

What wisdom can be gleened from this hadith?

Ok so if thats all you have to say then you have conceded defeat in this thread. In summary:

You ignored the opinions of 10 well known historical Islamic scholars, example of Muhamamd's own Pedophila (Aisha) and proceeded to insert your own opinions while admitting that you have been studying arabic for only one year and that you "certainly don't know as much as the scholars."

Good! It would have saved everyone time if you had said that in the beginning.

I'll end my post with another great teaching from Muhammad:

Allah loves sneezes
Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "Allah loves sneezing but dislikes yawning; so if anyone of you sneezes and then praises Allah, every Muslim who hears him (praising Allah) has to say Tashmit to him. But as regards yawning, it is from Satan, so if one of you yawns, he should try his best to stop it, for when anyone of you yawns, Satan laughs at him."
Sahih Bukhari 8:73:245

Next time you sneeze, Muhamamd Ghokle, know that Allah likes sneezes but dislikes yawning. Tell me though: why would the creator of this vast Universe love sneezing but hate yawning?

What wisdom can be gleened from this hadith?

Maxstar1

I'm sorry but it appears that no one has won. You still have yet to prove that the usage of lam in that verse translates as "never".

I love how you post irrelevant hadiths to make your point. At least Sanitarium1 was straight foward and didn't do the same that you did. At least he didn't resort to mindless mockery like you did. You called me Muhammad Ghoklebutter, which is frankly an attempt to mock me. You dodged the fact that this interpretation is grammatically incorrect. Untill any of you prove to me otherwise, I will never agree that the Qur'an condones paedophilia. Unfortunately It seems as though you are more interested in diverting from the topic with irrelevant hadiths and attempt to mock me than to have a sound debate.

Ghokle

- You dodged the fact that this interpretation is grammatically incorrect.

Let me list again the things that you've dodged:

1. Opinions of 10 Islamic scholars, while admitting that you dont know more than the scholars.
2. Muhammad himself setting the example of pedophilia, by having sex with 9 year old Aisha.

Would you ever have sex with a 9 year old, Ghokle? I doubt it. You'd end up in prison and be labelled as a sex offensor and for the protection of society, you'd get a GPS unit on your feet to track your movements.

- I will never agree that the Qur'an condones paedophilia.

Ofcourse, no Muslim would agree with that. Did you think we thought we'd get you to agree with that? You would rather die than agree with that. You wouldnt agree with it even if Muhammad himself left his 72-virgins in Islamic heaven (not a myth, see hadith at end) and came down to tell you himself that yes, not only did he have sex with 9 year old Aisha, but Quran 65:4 too allows sex with girls who havent reached puberty. Thats just the nature of Islamic faith. Reason goes out the window when faith takes its place.

-----------

72 virgins hadith:

"It was mentioned by Daraj Ibn Abi Hatim, that Abu al-Haytham 'Adullah Ibn Wahb narrated from Abu Sa'id al-Khudhri, who heard the Prophet Muhammad PBUH saying, 'The smallest reward for the people of Heaven is an abode where there are eighty thousand servants and seventy-two houri, over which stands a dome decorated with pearls, aquamarine and ruby, as wide as the distance from al-Jabiyyah to San'a." - Vol. IV, Chapters on "The Features of Heaven as described by the Messenger of Allah", ch. 21 "About the Smallest Reward for the People of Heaven", hadith 2687

-----------

The truth is, if this translation of 65:4 is grammatically incorrect, so are those scholars.

I have an activity for you: translate "alwaladu lam ya'ku", then translate "alwaladu laa ya'kul".

See for yourself.

Yes the 10 Islamic scholars who confirmed the meaning of 65:4 know nothing about Islam and arabic as compared to you.

You're also ignoring Muhammad who had sex with 9 year old Aisha. That makes him a sex offendor and a pedophile according to modern standards.

Yes the 10 Islamic scholars who confirmed the meaning of 65:4 know nothing about Islam and arabic as compared to you.

You're also ignoring Muhammad who had sex with 9 year old Aisha. That makes him a sex offendor and a pedophile according to modern standards.

Maxstar1

They know more than me about Islam and Arabic yes, but the translation is grammatically incorrect!

Is it so hard to understand?

What?

They have grammatically incorrect arabic? Says who? You who knows more than them?

You need to read the article.

Lam ( 4;َ5;ْ ) = did not (negation in past tense)

 Copy paste the URL:

http://www.wikiislam.com/wiki/Pedophilia_in_the_Quran#Detailed_analysis_of_the_verse_in_Arabic

Lane's lexicon for Lam:

Lam = 4;
lam = Negative particle giving to the present the sense of the perfect; not.

Quoting you:

- Zayd laa ya'lamu = He doesn't know
- Zayd lam ya'lamu = He didn't know

This is exactly what the section is saying too. Please read the article for once (arabic letters arent coming out here).

What?

They have grammatically incorrect arabic? Says who? You who knows more than them?

Maxstar1

That was completely unecessary. 

I didn't say their Arabic was bad, but they made a mistake with the translation of lam. I repeat: Lam changes the tense of the verb, while laa does not.

If you don't understand this, then this debate is useless.

I saw the article, it proves itself wrong since lam does not indicate anything but the past tense.

Deal with these guys too becuase according to yourself, they know more Islam and arabic than you:

    * 3.1 Sayyid Abul Ala Maududi
    * 3.2 Shaykh Muhammad ibn 'Uthaymeen
    * 3.3 'Ibn Kathir
    * 3.4 Al-Jalalayn
    * 3.5 Ibn Abbas
    * 3.6 Al-Wahidi
    * 3.7 Al-Tabari
    * 3.8 Zamakshari
    * 3.9 Tabrasi
    * 3.10 Al-Shoukani
    * 3.11 Abu-Hayyan

You cant make a refutation unless you get atleast 11 other equivalent Islamic scholars to reject the above scholars.You're not a scholar so your opinion doesnt count.

And I'm saying that is exactly what the article says too. Why have you not responded to Sanitarium's points now, Muhammad?

As for you saying it refers to woman who havent menstruated since their last period, as explained by Sanitarium already, Quran 2:228 already deals with that situation.

Adding to that again, your prophet had sex with 9 year old Aisha himself. This makes him a pedophile.

And once again, dont make me laugh by saying that 11 Islamic sholars who wrot the Tafsirs knew less about negation that you do.

- Here, one should bear in mind the fact that according to the explanations given in the Quran the question of the waiting period arises in respect of the women with whom marriage may have been consummated, for there is no waiting-period in case divorce is pronounced before the consummation of marriage. (Al-Ahzab: 49). Therefore, making mention of the waiting-period for the girls who have not yet menstruated, clearly proves that it is not only permissible to give away the girl in marriage at this age but it is also permissible for the husband to consummate marriage with her. Now, obviously no Muslim has the right to forbid a thing which the Quran has held as permissible. - ayyid Abul Ala Maududi: Tafhim al Quran. Commentary on Quran Chapter 65:4 

What are your qualifications as compared to Maudodi and the 10 other Islamic scholars?

First of all, the scholars are not the Qur'an or Hadith. They're only the 10 "greatest" scholars of Islam because they were famous back in the day. Obviously you don't follow Christianity, but would you think of the Pope's opinion as the most valid? What if he makes a mistake? Does it tarnish his credibility? NO. These scholars may be famous but it's only their (very false) opinion that paedophillia is allowed.

Second, look at this:

"and those who did not menstruate yet"

"and those who never menstruate"

If you read the Arabic, you'll see these two translations are wrong. There is no indication of "yet" in the verse, if "yet" was there it would be:

Wa-al-la'iy lam yahidna ba'd

As for the second one, it is also incorrect. If it was, however, it would say this in Arabic:

Wa-al-la'iy laa tahidna

So these two translations are incorrect. Prove me wrong.

No sorry, you cant ignore the tafsirs and hadith and do your own junior analysis that contradicts the scholars and most of all, Muhammad himself.

- These scholars may be famous but it's only their (very false) opinion that paedophillia is allowed.

Do you think scholars made things up? Where do you think they got their explanations from? Its Muhammad's own deed of having sex with 9 year old Aisha that pedophilia is allowed in Islam.

Muhammad GhokleButter

This ***** (Ediited censor-bypass ~~ MGN) forum software now doesnt even let me use copy paste unless I use Firefox.

- 1. Let me elaborate. I certainly don't know as much as the scholars. I found MYSELF that translating part 65:4 as "and those who never menstruate" is wrong because lam is used, not laa! Prove me wrong grammatically, don't tell me about 10 scholars and their opinions. Give me evidence that I'm wrong about the negation.

The evidence is that your opinions are contradicting those of 10 well known Islamic scholars. That is enough evidence. Provide equally strong evidence that you are right and they are wrong. Further supporting evidence:

1. You were impressed by Tafsirs and said they were the reason why you didnt convert to Judaism. Then just one month later you have now changed your views and said Tafsirs are biased and full of errors.

2. You are a new student of Arabic and cannot speak full arabic therefore you dont know anything about Islamor even arabic.

You said you're not picky about hadith. I'm sure you know Muhammed the arab prescribed camel urine as medicine, in hadith.

Maxstar1

Next time you sneeze, Muhamamd Ghokle, know that Allah likes sneezes but dislikes yawning. Tell me though: why would the creator of this vast Universe love sneezing but hate yawning?

What wisdom can be gleened from this hadith?

Maxstar1

No sorry, you cant ignore the tafsirs and hadith and do your own junior analysis that contradicts the scholars and most of all, Muhammad himself.

- These scholars may be famous but it's only their (very false) opinion that paedophillia is allowed.

Do you think scholars made things up? Where do you think they got their explanations from? Its Muhammad's own deed of having sex with 9 year old Aisha that pedophilia is allowed in Islam.

Maxstar1

You fail to realize that those are just opinions. It doesn't matter how revered they are, they are nothing but scholars and their opinions are not absolute.

Also, Muhammad married Aisha in the 7th century. How come there is not a single scrap of criticism towards the marriage by the people around him at the time? Because it was very normal. You'll see absolutely no complaints about the marriage; even Maimonides, who was critical of Muhammad (in the sense that he didn't fulfil the Jewish prophecies according to him), had no say on it. And since 65:4 does not permit paedophllia, this is far from a confirmation of the verse. 

Also, Muhammad married Aisha in the 7th century. How come there is not a single scrap of criticism towards the marriage by the people around him at the time? Because it was very normal. You'll see absolutely no complaints about the marriage; even Maimonides, who was critical of Muhammad (in the sense that he didn't fulfil the Jewish prophecies according to him), had no say on it.

ghoklebutter

Sorry that will never be a valid argument as muhammad is to be judged by today's standards as the quran itself declares him as the ultimate standard of character and morality.Gambler_3

The culture was different back then. There is no reason to judge everything that he did by today's standards. Do you think that the whole world set the standard age of marriage at 18 from the beginning of time?

MetalGear, ok

 - the sole purpose of the comment was to annoy/irritate.

 Thanks for letting me know. I'll report to you any offenses by Ghokle as well. Sorry for bypassing the word censor. I didnt know things are monitored that closely here. I'd think one little word wouldnt matter, but ok.

I would like to report this comment to you from Ghokle:"You fail to realize that those are just opinions."

I dont know how different my "you dont know anything about Islam or arabic", is from the bold above but fine, just for you I'll refrain from that.

Ghokle

- You fail to realize that those are just opinions.

You fail to realize that you cannot ignore the Tafsirs of 11 different Islamic scholars.

- How come there is not a single scrap of criticism towards the marriage by the people around him at the time?

If there was, would you have believed it? You've rejected the 11 different scholars already.

-And since 65:4 does not permit paedophllia, this is far from a confirmation of the verse. 

Incorrect, 65:4 allows a man to have sex with a girl who hasnt reached puberty.

- The culture was different back then. 

Why be a Muslim today then? What does Islam teach you that you cant get from today's teachings?

- Do you think that the whole world set the standard age of marriage at 18 from the beginning of time?

The Quran says Muhammad is an example for all to follow, for all times.

1. I can and I will, because their opinions are not absolute. You can't shove their opinions down my throat.

2. Yes I would believe it.

3. I have proved you wrong; the translation is grammatically inaccurate. Again, prove me wrong.

4. I don't know. But:

-Controlling your anger

-Feeding the poor

-Emancipating slaves

-Protecting the orphans

-Intolerance of slander among people

Are all despicable acts. What a world I live in!

5. There are exceptions. You're taking that teaching way too literally. Muhammad once got irratated at a deaf old man for interrupting Muhammad's discussion multiple times (he found out later and repented though).  Is that a good example of manners? No it isn't. But we don't repeat anyone's mistakes, am I right?

MetalGear, ok

- the sole purpose of the comment was to annoy/irritate.

Thanks for letting me know. I'll report to you any offenses by Ghokle as well. Sorry for bypassing the word censor. I didnt know things are monitored that closely here. I'd think one little word wouldnt matter, but ok.

I would like to report this comment to you from Ghokle:"You fail to realize that those are just opinions."

I dont know how different my "you dont know anything about Islam or arabic", is from the bold above but fine, just for you I'll refrain from that.

Maxstar1

Hi there Maxstar1,

The reason that I considered the line: "you dont know anything about Islam or arabic" to be trolling, is that it obviously aint true; you may think that Ghokle knows little about Islam or Arabic, but it is clear that he knows something about these two subjects, which led me to believe that your comment was used to soley annoy/irritate, especially seeing that saying to someone that they don't know anything about their own religion is of course provokative.

Meanwhile, Ghokle's statement that you've highlighted isn't really trolling at all -- he's just rasied a mistake he feels you've made in the debate.

I must stress that I am not trying to take sides in this debate, but I'm just making sure that thinks remain organised here. Thanks.

4. I don't know. But:

-Controlling your anger

-Feeding the poor

-Emancipating slaves

-Protecting the orphans

-Intolerance of slander among people

Are all despicable acts. What a world I live in!

5. There are exceptions. You're taking that teaching way too literally. Muhammad once got irratated at a deaf old man for interrupting Muhammad's discussion multiple times (he found out later and repented though). Is that a good example of manners? No it isn't. But we don't repeat anyone's mistakes, am I right?

ghoklebutter

Meanwhile Islam teaches me some good things which admittedly I dont have cuz I am not a muslim.

- Women are just inferior ****** (Edited censor bypass ~~ MG_N)

- The non-believers should be be-headed

- An apostate of Islam should be killed

- You can beat your wife no problem

- In a victorious war you can rape the women of the conquered land as much as you want but dont do it all night as it may become too stressful for them

- Muslims are your brothers but non-muslims dont matter

Are all fantastic things. What a world I dont live in.:(

5. Getting irritated by something is an impulse action, it can happen to anyone. Having sex with a 9 year old multiple times is a fully conscious decision. Sorry ghoklebutter you really shouldnt be an apologetic about this. Muhammad is declared as THE model for all times, there is no running away from this. Pedophilia is something unacceptable for such an extraordinary claim of ultimate model.