Atheism and suicide

Often I hear about how atheism is linked to suicidal rates. I was wondering what your thoughts on suicide are? Have you contemplated suicide? Have you attempted suicide? Do you believe suicide is wrong? Do you believe there are circumstances in which suicide is right and/or justified?

I've myself thought about suicide, but never really took my thoughts too serious. Just what would happen if I did do the deed and how I would do it. I think these are pretty natural feelings and everyone has them, but I've learned they are quite easy to control.

I've always believed suicide to be stupid and weak, this is the only life they get and if they want to take it away because of trivial things then they don't deserve what they lost for what they put their family and friends through. This isn't what every Atheist believes, I'm sure but I have trouble understanding the emotions that drive people to do these things. I have tried to understand them, and I know the facts and numbers, but they and my thought process are like oil and water. Not to say that I've never felt grieved or sorrow before, I have like everyone else, but I just could never see myself push those emotions so far that they'd make me kill myself.

There are a few exceptions to this, however. If I were to be a quadroplegic or in serious physical pain I would rather have the peace of death than to live through that. But that's because I understand physical limits and pains.

Yes, I've thought about killing myself a lot. It is one of the reasons I'm so adverse to handguns, because I don't trust myself with them. I'm not suicidal; I don't have a bad life and am not depressed, but I'm deathly curious about the Great Beyond. It is one of the reasons I'm afraid of dying though, because I don't have a clue what it will be like.

But ultimately I think that suicide is selfish. I never have experienced what it is like to be depressed so I can't exactly say that suicidal people shouldn't be complaining or anything. My girlfriend was once suicidal, but now she is better :). I try to help her when she gets sad. 

Anyway, I would imagine that atheists would be average in terms of suicide rates. I think it has more to do with financial and social situations than religious beliefs. I know that Japan has the highest suicide rate in the world, due largely to the amount of stress put on the people living there to succeed. When I lived in South Korea, all the windows on the top floors in the schools had bars over them to prevent students from jumping out of them to kill themselves.

I used to be really bad in some of my middle teenage years.  I was really, really depressed, often having little energy to do anything at all, and often wanting to just sleep.  I did see a doctor about it and had blood tests done as I didn't see any real external cause for my depression, but nothing came of it.  Nonetheless, they were by far the worst months of my life and were an experience I wouldn't wish upon my worst enemy.  I'm not sure if I ever seriously contemplated suicide - the entire time is kind of blur for me in my memory - but I will say that I know I could honestly get a sense of why people commit suicide and that I could empathize with how those people probably feel.  In retrospect, though, I think that time was actually beneficial for me, oddly enough, because I came out of it immensely empathetic for other people's problems in life.  I think I owe a lot of who I am today to that tumultuous time.

I will also say that - no offense to those in this thread - I cannot agree with the sentiments expressed by those who would say that suicide is stupid or cowardly.  Perhaps, objectively speaking, those statements might be true at face value, but if you're honestly in a situation where you feel that suicide is a viable option, the rational side of your brain has already shut down.  You truly believe that no one loves you, that life has no meaning, and that everything would be better off if you were dead.  No one who commits suicide does so under the full awareness that they will be leaving behind people who care about them very much and who would be crushed by their death.  If you have never been to the point where you seriously considered suicide as the best course of action, there is quite frankly no way you could possibly know what it's like.

That's not to say that I think people shouldn't stop others from committing suicide, or anything like that.  But if someone does commit suicide, I really don't think we're in any position to judge that person.

I've always been a happy guy that enjoys life so suicide has never really popped into my decision making process at any point.

My girlfriend does suffer from depression though and she has tried to commit suicide more than once (one time I had to break down a door to get at her). She's an atheist but I don't really think that that played any part in it.

I can find the study if need be, it has been a while since I have seen so I didn't take the time to look it up now; after religious extremists, atheists statistically have less fear of death than everyone else.  It is the vast group of people who live in religious moderation and agnosticism who have the most death anxiety, which can play a role in why, if there are, higher atheist suicide rates.

I personally think a person has an intrinsic right to commit suicide if they wish.  If they decide that their life is not worth living, who else could possibly be in a better position to say that it is.   That being said, I wouldn't encourage someone to do so, but I wouldn't judge them in the slightest either.

For everyone that says suicide is selfish (a lot of people) I instead say it is selfish that people around that person expect this individual to constantly inflict a life of torment on his/herself just so the people around them don't get any run off pain from their death.  The person's internal world obviously has to be pretty bad off, worse than what the people who trivially dismiss them can, or are willing to, understand.  Also many suicides reason that the world/family/friends would be better without them, so they are actually doing those around them a favor.  Saying the act is selfish is simply a short cut to thinking.

And as for it being cowardly, peh.  Anyone that has really ever thought about it should know how hard it actually is.  I went through common teenage angst, and suicidal thoughts aren't all too uncommon with that territory.  I never had the balls to do it.  There is no commitment in life to match it.  At the time I was agnostic so yes I was in a high risk group for death anxiety, but regardless, I could never imagine this as being an easy cop out.

If you look at many anti-depression medications you will see warnings for increased risk of suicide.  The reason for this is because many people are so hopelessly depressed that they can't even see suicide as a way out.  When the medication starts to help them, it brings them up to a level that they realize that they are able to make a proactive change in their situation, suicide.  As hard as it is for some people to imagine, there are others that live entirely different internal and external lives than what they do.  After all, you almost have to assume everyone is playing relatively the hand from the same positions that you are to pass judgment on them.  Once you accept fundamental differences that drive behavior, it is very hard to judge their actions, because your own standard that you would judge yourself by is the only thing you can understand.

(removes soapbox)

You truly believe that no one loves you, that life has no meaning, and that everything would be better off if you were dead.GabuEx

they will be leaving behind people who care about them very much and who would be crushed by their death.

GabuEx

For everyone that says suicide is selfish (a lot of people) I instead say it is selfish that people around that person expect this individual to constantly inflict a life of torment on his/herself just so the people around them don't get any run off pain from their death.  The person's internal world obviously has to be pretty bad off, worse than what the people who trivially dismiss them can, or are willing to, understand.  Also many suicides reason that the world/family/friends would be better without them, so they are actually doing those around them a favor.  Saying the act is selfish is simply a short cut to thinking.

Sitri_

[QUOTE="GabuEx"]

You truly believe that no one loves you, that life has no meaning, and that everything would be better off if you were dead.Teenaged

they will be leaving behind people who care about them very much and who would be crushed by their death.

GabuEx

Just because their reasoning makes sense doesn't mean it isn't selfish for them to do it. The vast majority of the time, the person has people around them who care about them and love them, but they refuse to realize this. A lot of time they come up with that reasoning to justify them wanting to kill themselves when it clearly isn't true.

helium_flash

But as I see it two things still stand: 

If a person percieves the action as benifiting others, it is hard to call it selfish, which implies that they are intentially acting for personal benifit at the cost of others. (In other terms, if I am trying to give someone a stock tip that ends up backfiring for them but makes me money, was my advice selfish?)

Also, what if the amount of agony built up in that one life outweighs the agony inflicted on those that suffer his death?  In that case I just see it as weighing the collective good and bad scales and acting accordingly.  In this case it seems to me like the other people who have to cope with the death are selfish as to wish a miserable existance on this person to alleviate their much less severe pain.  

I contemplate suicide every few weeks, and I'd be lying if I said that my lack of faith didn't have anything to do with it. That is not the only circumstance that creates difficulty, as there are other serious conditions in my life (cancer), things that will not end until death, that require a great deal of suffering (every few years) to get through, and I don't know if I can handle it. I just don't know. The thing that keeps me going is my family (I will not put them through that pain) and my stubbornness and refusal to allow life's hardships to get the best of me. I get angry, and it helps keep me alive, aside from eating away at me from the inside out and consuming me with hatred.

But I don't judge those who do kill themselves, I just think it's a very sad situation. I used to pass judgement, but who am I to say? I know nothing of their lives, I don't presume to compare their situation to mine or others, everyone is different. In health I used to feel very judgemental towards others, now in sickness, I'm not.....funny how that works.

All in all, I do believe those who lack faith may be more prone to kill themselves than not.

Yes, mainly recently though. Before I never thought about it since Catholicism says that suicide is a ticket straight to hell, but nowadays, it's something that I ponder occasionally. But I use the word ponder because it's not so much an inclination to commit suicide as it is a curiosity of what it would feel like, how it would affect those around me, and what would happen after I am dead. It's funny, I actually had an interesting dream a couple of nights ago. In it I took a knife to my stomach because I just didn't feel like living anymore, but once I had done that, I realized that I still wanted to live and would be dying prematurely, but it was too late and at the end, just before I woke up, I died. :?

Right now, I'm very young and realize that I have much to experience in life, so suicide isn't really something that I'd think about seriously. Life is good right now, but I'm still a virgin and I don't intend to die that way. :P

I personally think a person has an intrinsic right to commit suicide if they wish.  If they decide that their life is not worth living, who else could possibly be in a better position to say that it is.   That being said, I wouldn't encourage someone to do so, but I wouldn't judge them in the slightest either.

For everyone that says suicide is selfish (a lot of people) I instead say it is selfish that people around that person expect this individual to constantly inflict a life of torment on his/herself just so the people around them don't get any run off pain from their death.

Sitri_

Hah, I find myself quoting you quite often in this union, Sitri. :P That was very well put, and expresses my thoughts as well.

Often I hear about how atheism is linked to suicidal rates. I was wondering what your thoughts on suicide are?

It's definitely a very personal thing. It's up to the individuals to judge for themselves.

Have you contemplated suicide?

Yes, when I was around 17, the details of which I doubt I'll ever speak. Just in case any of you are curious, it was not just depression, the problems were very real. It's not that I didn't care about other people's feelings. It's just that there was no point to it. It seemed like a useless thing to do. I clearly remember that I felt my feeling for others and their feelings for me were silly jokes. They were of no use in the situation. The situation is just too complex to explain. It's sufficient to say that the gravity of the situation far out-weighed any personal feelings. To be brutally honest the utter hopeless state of the situation actually made me feel like a coward that I didn't have the guts to commit suicide and so had to survive the almost incomprehensible misery while being unable to do anything to change it. It's a good thing I wasn't that brave. I know it sounds all too dramatic but it's true. Those days of my life also taught me some important things about life, the hard way! Safe to say I've learned those things well and I don't wish for anyone to be that well-learned.

Those days are over and it's hardly the case now, but I'd be lying if I say I never get these thoughts.

BTW, I totally agree with what GabuEx said:

I will also say that - no offense to those in this thread - I cannot agree with the sentiments expressed by those who would say that suicide is stupid or cowardly.  Perhaps, objectively speaking, those statements might be true at face value, but if you're honestly in a situation where you feel that suicide is a viable option, the rational side of your brain has already shut down.  You truly believe that no one loves you, that life has no meaning, and that everything would be better off if you were dead.  No one who commits suicide does so under the full awareness that they will be leaving behind people who care about them very much and who would be crushed by their death.  If you have never been to the point where you seriously considered suicide as the best course of action, there is quite frankly no way you could possibly know what it's like.

That's not to say that I think people shouldn't stop others from committing suicide, or anything like that.  But if someone does commit suicide, I really don't think we're in any position to judge that person.

GabuEx

Have you attempted suicide?

No, not even close. All I knows is I'll probably want it to be as painless as possible because if I just wanted to punish myself I'd find some other way.

Do you believe suicide is wrong?

No, not always, but it's up to the individuals to decide for themselves. I doubt a suicidal person would care much about right and wrong unless, it is somehow a very big deal to others close to that person.

Do you believe there are circumstances in which suicide is right and/or justified?

I think it's very rare but definitely justifiable in some cases. But in the end it's upto individuals to justify it for themselves.

Funny you should ask. In the past, i used to think about suicide quite often. Not that I was particularly unhappy or anything, it just seemed to me life had no meaning and was tiring. At that point in my life, i was starting to entertain the idea that God didn't exist. Oddly, i had no problem with that, it would just be easier to return to the void, from which i came to be. However, if God existed, I had decided to tell him to "leave me alone". I don't really know what triggered those feelings. I'm over that now, though sometimes, when I'm on high places, I sometimes think how easy it would be to take just a little step forward and end my life there and then... As for my opinion about people who attempt or actually succed in commiting suicide, I say it depends. Some are so miserable in their lives, that maybe suicide is the only solution. Some actually are cowards for not even trying to improve their lives. Whatever the case, I also believe that it does take a lot of courage to actually do it.

Yeah I have thought about suicide and I have even planned how I was going to kill myself. I think there is no point of life and we were created for no reason. I do not believe in god I believe in the big bang theory. I think there is no point of life to live or anything. Cause if you think about it we will all die if we keep living until we are around 70 years old or older so why not die now. It can save the trouble later.SSBFan12

[QUOTE="SSBFan12"]Yeah I have thought about suicide and I have even planned how I was going to kill myself. I think there is no point of life and we were created for no reason. I do not believe in god I believe in the big bang theory. I think there is no point of life to live or anything. Cause if you think about it we will all die if we keep living until we are around 70 years old or older so why not die now. It can save the trouble later.Teenaged

[QUOTE="Teenaged"][QUOTE="SSBFan12"]Yeah I have thought about suicide and I have even planned how I was going to kill myself. I think there is no point of life and we were created for no reason. I do not believe in god I believe in the big bang theory. I think there is no point of life to live or anything. Cause if you think about it we will all die if we keep living until we are around 70 years old or older so why not die now. It can save the trouble later.SSBFan12

I've never considered suicide... and that's despite taking an interest in Nietzsche. :PMetalGear_Ninty

I think it's the complete opposite, if they're truly an atheist and believe there is nothing else after this existence. Why even consider the possibility of ending it?  I value my life highly because of this.

Now, if I was a Christian and believed everything there is to that religion I would not mind at all if I died even though I doubt I'd kill myself for fear of being put into eternal torment for finite crimes ... (wtf is up with that btw?)

[QUOTE="MetalGear_Ninty"]I've never considered suicide... and that's despite taking an interest in Nietzsche. :PCptJSparrow

:P

His stuff can be depressing -- just look at my sig!

[QUOTE="CptJSparrow"][QUOTE="MetalGear_Ninty"]I've never considered suicide... and that's despite taking an interest in Nietzsche. :PMetalGear_Ninty

:P

His stuff can be depressing -- just look at my sig!

It can be, but I'd consider it more life-affirming than something like "your a sinner that deserves to be punished, so accept me into your life and follow my commands, or perish for eternity."

[QUOTE="CptJSparrow"][QUOTE="MetalGear_Ninty"]I've never considered suicide... and that's despite taking an interest in Nietzsche. :PMetalGear_Ninty

:P

His stuff can be depressing -- just look at my sig!

I have gotten many a good belly laugh while reading Nietzsche.  I suppose it is all perspective.

I think it's the complete opposite, if they're truly an atheist and believe there is nothing else after this existence. Why even consider the possibility of ending it?  I value my life highly because of this.

Now, if I was a Christian and believed everything there is to that religion I would not mind at all if I died even though I doubt I'd kill myself for fear of being put into eternal torment for finite crimes ... (wtf is up with that btw?)

SimpJee

I'm right there with you SimpJee.  To me this life is all I have, and I'm going 90 to nothing, balls to the wall until I'm in the dirt.

Have you attempted suicide? Do you believe suicide is wrong? Do you believe there are circumstances in which suicide is right and/or justified?Genetic_Code

-Yes

-Depends on the situation

Of course. Let's be hypothetical: If I had a girlfriend and she fell off of a cruise ship and drowned, I'd probably commit suicide within a few days or weeks. I would always be thinking if I could have done something to prevent her from falling; the guilt would be so overwhelming. I wouldn't want to live a life in that state so I'd just kill myself.

[QUOTE="CptJSparrow"][QUOTE="MetalGear_Ninty"]I've never considered suicide... and that's despite taking an interest in Nietzsche. :PMetalGear_Ninty

:P

His stuff can be depressing -- just look at my sig!

[QUOTE="MetalGear_Ninty"]

[QUOTE="CptJSparrow"][QUOTE="MetalGear_Ninty"]I've never considered suicide... and that's despite taking an interest in Nietzsche. :PCptJSparrow

:P

His stuff can be depressing -- just look at my sig!

...and that's easier said than done. :wink:

[QUOTE="CptJSparrow"][QUOTE="MetalGear_Ninty"]

[QUOTE="CptJSparrow"][QUOTE="MetalGear_Ninty"]I've never considered suicide... and that's despite taking an interest in Nietzsche. :PMetalGear_Ninty

:P

His stuff can be depressing -- just look at my sig!

...and that's easier said than done. :wink:

Of course. Let's be hypothetical: If I had a girlfriend and she fell off of a cruise ship and drowned, I'd probably commit suicide within a few days or weeks. I would always be thinking if I could have done something to prevent her from falling; the guilt would be so overwhelming. I wouldn't want to live a life in that state so I'd just kill myself.

dracula_16

But you couldn't have and offing yourself won't mean there'll be an afterlife where you'll meet her so why do it?

I have wanted to die in low periods of my life, but I would never commit suicide. I've always managed to pull myself together and get through tough times.To me it is a completely idiotic and a defeatist act. I also consider it selfish, to forget about the feelings of all your loved ones and friends, even if you don't have any family or friends, people around you like coworkers can be negatively affected by you killing yourself. DrSponge

Probably so, but I doubt someone about to commit suicide would be bothered at how the co-workers might feel about it and I'm not sure if it's really all the selfish, especially when it comes to co-workers' feelings. 

Often I hear about how atheism is linked to suicidal rates. I was wondering what your thoughts on suicide are? Have you contemplated suicide? Have you attempted suicide? Do you believe suicide is wrong? Do you believe there are circumstances in which suicide is right and/or justified?

Genetic_Code

Every so often (especially when I'm under a lot of stress), I'll think about it. Not really in a whole lot of detail, just a general feeling of "oh, if I was dead I wouldn't have to deal with this." Granted, they're just thoughts that I'd never think of acting on. Living isn't so bad. :P

Is suicide wrong? Not always. If a person is REALLY suffering, they should have the right to end it. For example, if one had an awful disease with no chance of recovery, why prolong the suffering? Why use resources that would be better spent on aiding somebody else with a better outlook?

I think committing suicide over relatively trivial matters is unjustified, though. 

Another reason why I am going to kill myself is because my mom has been choking me (litterally) and I can't do anything right so I guess I am just going to kill myself and leave everyone behind.

Another reason why I am going to kill myself is because my mom has been choking me (litterally) and I can't do anything right so I guess I am just going to kill myself and leave everyone behind.

SSBFan12

:? Call the police?

Another reason why I am going to kill myself is because my mom has been choking me (litterally) and I can't do anything right so I guess I am just going to kill myself and leave everyone behind.

SSBFan12

[QUOTE="dracula_16"]

Of course. Let's be hypothetical: If I had a girlfriend and she fell off of a cruise ship and drowned, I'd probably commit suicide within a few days or weeks. I would always be thinking if I could have done something to prevent her from falling; the guilt would be so overwhelming. I wouldn't want to live a life in that state so I'd just kill myself.

Genetic_Code

But you couldn't have and offing yourself won't mean there'll be an afterlife where you'll meet her so why do it?

The guilt would be too intense to handle. I would never be able to forgive myself. Being at fault of a loved one's death would produce the worst feeling possible.

I don't believe in an afterlife but it would be better to not feel anything than to feel such intense sadness.

[QUOTE="SSBFan12"]

Another reason why I am going to kill myself is because my mom has been choking me (litterally) and I can't do anything right so I guess I am just going to kill myself and leave everyone behind.

CptJSparrow

[QUOTE="CptJSparrow"][QUOTE="SSBFan12"]

Another reason why I am going to kill myself is because my mom has been choking me (litterally) and I can't do anything right so I guess I am just going to kill myself and leave everyone behind.

SSBFan12

[QUOTE="CptJSparrow"][QUOTE="SSBFan12"]

Another reason why I am going to kill myself is because my mom has been choking me (litterally) and I can't do anything right so I guess I am just going to kill myself and leave everyone behind.

SSBFan12

I apologize if I sound like a dick, but it really reads to me as you just want to feel sorry for yourself. Either get motivated to do something about it or expect to stay there, people will likely not walk you through life.

[QUOTE="CptJSparrow"][QUOTE="SSBFan12"]

Another reason why I am going to kill myself is because my mom has been choking me (litterally) and I can't do anything right so I guess I am just going to kill myself and leave everyone behind.

SSBFan12

[QUOTE="SSBFan12"][QUOTE="CptJSparrow"][QUOTE="SSBFan12"]

Another reason why I am going to kill myself is because my mom has been choking me (litterally) and I can't do anything right so I guess I am just going to kill myself and leave everyone behind.

Sitri_

I apologize if I sound like a dick, but it really reads to me as you just want to feel sorry for yourself. Either get motivated to do something about it or expect to stay there, people will likely not walk you through life.

[QUOTE="Sitri_"][QUOTE="SSBFan12"][QUOTE="CptJSparrow"][QUOTE="SSBFan12"]

Another reason why I am going to kill myself is because my mom has been choking me (litterally) and I can't do anything right so I guess I am just going to kill myself and leave everyone behind.

helium_flash

I apologize if I sound like a dick, but it really reads to me as you just want to feel sorry for yourself. Either get motivated to do something about it or expect to stay there, people will likely not walk you through life.

Well if you think he's an attention seeker then don't give him your attention. :roll:

[QUOTE="helium_flash"][QUOTE="Sitri_"][QUOTE="SSBFan12"][QUOTE="CptJSparrow"][QUOTE="SSBFan12"]

 

MetalGear_Ninty

I apologize if I sound like a dick, but it really reads to me as you just want to feel sorry for yourself. Either get motivated to do something about it or expect to stay there, people will likely not walk you through life.

Well if you think he's an attention seeker then don't give him your attention. :roll:

[QUOTE="MetalGear_Ninty"][QUOTE="helium_flash"][QUOTE="Sitri_"][QUOTE="SSBFan12"][QUOTE="CptJSparrow"][QUOTE="SSBFan12"]

helium_flash

I apologize if I sound like a dick, but it really reads to me as you just want to feel sorry for yourself. Either get motivated to do something about it or expect to stay there, people will likely not walk you through life.

Well if you think he's an attention seeker then don't give him your attention. :roll: