Of course. I would rather be right than blissfully ignorant. Asking questions is the only way one can be intellectually honest about the existence of gods. Being skeptical doesn't always bring someone to being an atheist for the rest of their life, though. It's just as possible that a person will come to faith after their period of questioning. I don't have a problem with having faith in god(s)-- what's problematic is when someone shuts their own mind off. Atheism is a key to a healthier mind, even if you aren't an atheist for very long.
This is why I get easily angered when I hear someone say that they know so-and-so was a prophet or that they know a good event was from divine intervention. Dishonesty irritates me.
[QUOTE="ChiliDragon"][QUOTE="mariostar0001"]How does knowing you have no control over your life provide hope? mariostar0001
It doesn't. That was my point. ;)That was my point. :? Ah, okay, we're talking past each other. :) My point is that as you described Islam, a person has a semblance of control because their actions matter and affect the outcome. As you described Christianity, all a person can do is hope that their belief is the correct one that gets them to Heaven and nowhere else. So we end up with the muslim having more power and control over their life than the christian does. Hence, they have more of a reason to be optimistic, since they aren't stuck essentially hoping that they picked the right numbers in the universe's gigantic salvation lottery. Hopefully that made more sense. :)
Asking questions is the only way one can be intellectually honest about the existence of gods. Being skeptical doesn't always bring someone to being an atheist for the rest of their life, though. It's just as possible that a person will come to faith after their period of questioning. I don't have a problem with having faith in god(s)-- what's problematic is when someone shuts their own mind off.dracula_16
Well said. :) I've always been of the opinion that if a person's faith can't stand up to questioning, then that's even more reason to question it. If you truly believe you're right, then your beliefs should be able to survive a little scrutiny, right?
[QUOTE="mariostar0001"][QUOTE="ChiliDragon"][QUOTE="mariostar0001"]How does knowing you have no control over your life provide hope? ChiliDragon
It doesn't. That was my point. ;)That was my point. :? Ah, okay, we're talking past each other. :) My point is that as you described Islam, a person has a semblance of control because their actions matter and affect the outcome. As you described Christianity, all a person can do is hope that their belief is the correct one that gets them to Heaven and nowhere else. So we end up with the muslim having more power and control over their life than the christian does. Hence, they have more of a reason to be optimistic, since they aren't stuck essentially hoping that they picked the right numbers in the universe's gigantic salvation lottery. Hopefully that made more sense. :)
Asking questions is the only way one can be intellectually honest about the existence of gods. Being skeptical doesn't always bring someone to being an atheist for the rest of their life, though. It's just as possible that a person will come to faith after their period of questioning. I don't have a problem with having faith in god(s)-- what's problematic is when someone shuts their own mind off.dracula_16
Well said. :) I've always been of the opinion that if a person's faith can't stand up to questioning, then that's even more reason to question it. If you truly believe you're right, then your beliefs should be able to survive a little scrutiny, right?That's correct, and why I haven't asked you more then one question. :lol:As for Islam, they have little control over their life because Allah could decide they weren't good enough no matter what they did. All a Christian has to do is believe in God, accept Him as saviour, and follow Him, and they know they are saved. An Islam has to believe in Allah, pray several times a day, make a pilgrimage to the Islam birthplace, abstain from certain meats, never marry more then four women (For the men), not be seen in public (For the women), etc, and hope Allah deems it worthy.
That's correct, and why I haven't asked you more then one question. :lol:mariostar0001
Now you've stopped making sense again....
As for Islam, they have little control over their life because Allah could decide they weren't good enough no matter what they did. All a Christian has to do is believe in God, accept Him as saviour, and follow Him, and they know they are saved. An Islam has to believe in Allah, pray several times a day, make a pilgrimage to the Islam birthplace, abstain from certain meats, never marry more then four women (For the men), not be seen in public (For the women), etc, and hope Allah deems it worthy. mariostar0001
So in other words all a Muslim has to do is have faith in Allah and follow him, and they'll know that they'll be saved ;) At the risk of offending again, you do realize that Islam is as diverse a Christianity, with as many and as large differences between them as any other huge and ancient religion, right? What you're describing as "Islam" hardly applies to all branches, and a few qualifiers and disclaimers here and there would probably go a long way towards making your posts look a little less uninformed than they are coming across right now.
[QUOTE="ChiliDragon"]So in other words all a Muslim has to do is have faith in Allah and follow him, and they'll know that they'll be saved ;)mariostar0001
Not what I said, I said that a Muslim has to follow a long set of rules and hope that they were good enough for Allah to accept them. Unless I remember Islam entirely wrong, it's similar to Judaism in that the faithful express and confess their faith by their actions. So the "long set of rules" is the way they follow. Besides, it can easily be argued that following long sets if rules is considered vital by various Christian denominations. The "saved by faith alone" doctrine that you ascribe to Christianity is at the center of most Protestant dogma, but not by all Christian denominations everywhere.
[QUOTE="mariostar0001"][QUOTE="ChiliDragon"]So in other words all a Muslim has to do is have faith in Allah and follow him, and they'll know that they'll be saved ;)ChiliDragon
Not what I said, I said that a Muslim has to follow a long set of rules and hope that they were good enough for Allah to accept them. Unless I remember Islam entirely wrong, it's similar to Judaism in that the faithful express and confess their faith by their actions. So the "long set of rules" is the way they follow. Besides, it can easily be argued that following long sets if rules is considered vital by various Christian denominations. The "saved by faith alone" doctrine that you ascribe to Christianity is at the center of most Protestant dogma, but not by all Christian denominations everywhere.Both Islam and Judaism follow a long set of rules that they believe will get them into heaven, but the Muslims believe heaven is when they die, while the Jews believe that heaven will be when Christ appears to set up the Jews to rule the earth. And while there are rules to follow in Christianity, and they are set up more for as much our benefit as God's, they are not the key to getting into heaven.
[QUOTE="ChiliDragon"]So in other words all a Muslim has to do is have faith in Allah and follow him, and they'll know that they'll be saved ;)mariostar0001
Not what I said, I said that a Muslim has to follow a long set of rules and hope that they were good enough for Allah to accept them.
It's not really an element of hope that Muslims have, per se. Muslims basically must have God-consciousness ("taqwaa" in Arabic) and patience ("sabr" in Arabic). Besides that, Islam is similar to Judaism, where following God's commandments is another way to get to heaven (unlike Judaism, which focuses on God's commandments a bit more).
Well said. :) I've always been of the opinion that if a person's faith can't stand up to questioning, then that's even more reason to question it. If you truly believe you're right, then your beliefs should be able to survive a little scrutiny, right?ChiliDragon
I completely agree. The book of Luke says "I will give you a mouth that none of your adversaries will be able to resist nor gainsay". If they have the truth on they're side, we should be having a grand ol' time.
That's correct, and why I haven't asked you more then one question. :lol:As for Islam, they have little control over their life because Allah could decide they weren't good enough no matter what they did. All a Christian has to do is believe in God, accept Him as saviour, and follow Him, and they know they are saved. An Islam has to believe in Allah, pray several times a day, make a pilgrimage to the Islam birthplace, abstain from certain meats, never marry more then four women (For the men), not be seen in public (For the women), etc, and hope Allah deems it worthy.mariostar0001
I think that that description of christian doctrine is a little bit misleading. It's true that they believe that faith is what saves you, but that doesn't give a christian a free pass to break any biblical commandment whenever the oportunity presents itself. 1John 3:9-10 says "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother". Any pastor that teaches that you can be a true christian while continuing to live in sin is a liar.
I was watching this Vlog on youtube where this guy was asked a question similar to the one the TC posed. (What advantage is there to being an atheist?) His response was pretty interesting. Basically, he made the point that the question is purely apologetic in nature. He argued that it is unlikely that a christian, or any other religious person, came to their religion after weighing the pros and cons for that particular system of beliefs and that the question is posed in an effort to recruit for a religion or to marr the position of atheism. I think he made a good point.
Of course. I would rather be right than blissfully ignorant. Asking questions is the only way one can be intellectually honest about the existence of gods. Being skeptical doesn't always bring someone to being an atheist for the rest of their life, though. It's just as possible that a person will come to faith after their period of questioning. I don't have a problem with having faith in god(s)-- what's problematic is when someone shuts their own mind off. Atheism is a key to a healthier mind, even if you aren't an atheist for very long.
This is why I get easily angered when I hear someone say that they know so-and-so was a prophet or that they know a good event was from divine intervention. Dishonesty irritates me.
dracula_16
I completely agree with this, very well said.
TC....For me to embrace religion would, in my view, be akin to setting my brain on auto-pilot. I will always value intellectual curiousty far more than dogmatic belief. If there is a God that would damn me for all eternity for *gasp* thinking for myself, then so be it. That is no God worth worshipping.
1. atheism is NOT A RELIGION. it is the LACK OF RELIGION.
2. pascal's wager is a logically flawed argument. how do you know if you're picking the right god? if you are a christian, and it turns out the muslim god is the true god.... well then you have lost anyways.
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i'd rather have no purpose in life than a false purpose.
how do you know if you're picking the right god? if you are a christian, and it turns out the muslim god is the true god.... well then you have lost anyways.chopperdave447
If that's the case, I'm going to desperately hope that the part about him being merciful and forgiving means just that... :P
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