Any mind/body dualists?

Who here believes that the thoughts and conscious experiences that we all have are non-physical in nature. I'm kind of a staunch physicalist myself but I would still like to hear an atheistic rationale behind dualism although any theist is also more than welcome to provide their own rationale, religious or otherwise.

I think the mind and the spirit are connected. I'm not entirely sure that they are the same thing, though. 

Also, what happened to your avatar? :o

I believe a system of a certain degree of complexity will develop some kind of 'self', that is in a sense separate from the physical body itself but still dependant on it. That's why I don't call only my brain 'myself', my whole body is part of what makes me really ME.

It kind of ties into my religious beliefs in general - 'god' is not supernatural but only the self that is a result of, in short, everything. It's great fun to try to understand what that really means. :P

I'm going to assume physicalism until I see proof to the contrary.

Also wouldn't those studies that showed that the subconscious of the brain makes a decision before a person consciously does so suggest that the brain is calling the shots?

I consider myself a dualist. I believe that dreams may be an extension of the physical brain, but I maintain that the dream itself is not physical. I might be able to consider that dualism and physicalism are compatible with each other.Genetic_Code

Well you're probably not a substance dualist then, perhaps you're an epiphenomenalist.

Many Christians think that the purpose in one's life is to free the spirit from the body.  In doing this we supposedly leave the sinful flesh behind and worship God truly.  I disagree with this believe heavily as the church in Corinth believed this to be true due to Plutonian philosophies in that time.  Paul argued in one of his letters to Corinth that just as Jesus rose in body and ascended into heaven, we will do the same: both spirit/mind and body connected.  I do not believe the body can live without the spirit indwelling within.

As far as I'm concerned consciousness is purely the result of neurones. I agree that some accounts of out of body experiences are very hard to explain, but I don't think dualism is a good answer._glatisant_

What is a better answer then?

Also wouldn't those studies that showed that the subconscious of the brain makes a decision before a person consciously does so suggest that the brain is calling the shots?

Funky_Llama

I don't see why that would be the case. If there is indeed something other than the body, it seems to me that the subconscious would be part of that thing as much as the conscious.

[QUOTE="_glatisant_"]As far as I'm concerned consciousness is purely the result of neurones. I agree that some accounts of out of body experiences are very hard to explain, but I don't think dualism is a good answer.GabuEx

What is a better answer then?

Also wouldn't those studies that showed that the subconscious of the brain makes a decision before a person consciously does so suggest that the brain is calling the shots?

Funky_Llama

I don't see why that would be the case. If there is indeed something other than the body, it seems to me that the subconscious would be part of that thing as much as the conscious.

I consider myself a dualist. I believe that dreams may be an extension of the physical brain, but I maintain that the dream itself is not physical. I might be able to consider that dualism and physicalism are compatible with each other.Genetic_Code

Surely asserting both dualism and physicalism is a contradiction.

Yeah I know you're a dualist but I never really figured out what kind of dualist you are. Are you a substance dualist or an epiphenomenalist or maybe a property dualist?domatron23

but yeah, I'm a property and substance dualist.

Yeah I know you're a dualist but I never really figured out what kind of dualist you are. Are you a substance dualist or an epiphenomenalist or maybe a property dualist?domatron23

Obscure philosophy terminology hurts my brain. :P

[QUOTE="domatron23"]Yeah I know you're a dualist but I never really figured out what kind of dualist you are. Are you a substance dualist or an epiphenomenalist or maybe a property dualist?danwallacefan

but yeah, I'm a property and substance dualist.

From wikipedia

"Property dualism describes a category of positions in the philosophy of mind which holds that while the world is constituted of just one kind of substance - the physical kind - there exist two distinct kinds of properties: physical properties and mental properties. In other words, it is the view that non-physical, mental properties (such as beliefs, desires and emotions) inhere in some physical substances (namely brains).

Substance dualism, on the other hand, is the view that there exist two kinds of substance: physical and non-physical (the mind), and subsequently also two kinds of properties which adhere in those respective substances."

Which one?

[QUOTE="danwallacefan"]

[QUOTE="domatron23"]Yeah I know you're a dualist but I never really figured out what kind of dualist you are. Are you a substance dualist or an epiphenomenalist or maybe a property dualist?domatron23

but yeah, I'm a property and substance dualist.

From wikipedia

"Property dualism describes a category of positions in the philosophy of mind which holds that while the world is constituted of just one kind of substance - the physical kind - there exist two distinct kinds of properties: physical properties and mental properties. In other words, it is the view that non-physical, mental properties (such as beliefs, desires and emotions) inhere in some physical substances (namely brains).

Substance dualism, on the other hand, is the view that there exist two kinds of substance: physical and non-physical (the mind), and subsequently also two kinds of properties which adhere in those respective substances."

Which one?

Being a very logic-minded person, I am a physicalist.Stryder1212

[QUOTE="Stryder1212"]Being a very logic-minded person, I am a physicalist.danwallacefan

I wasn't implying it was not logical, rather it is the physical explanation which has the most evidence, so I choose to believe that which is most likely to be true.

[QUOTE="danwallacefan"][QUOTE="Stryder1212"]Being a very logic-minded person, I am a physicalist.Stryder1212

I wasn't implying it was not logical, rather it is the physical explanation which has the most evidence, so I choose to believe that which is most likely to be true.

[QUOTE="Stryder1212"]

[QUOTE="danwallacefan"][QUOTE="Stryder1212"]Being a very logic-minded person, I am a physicalist.danwallacefan

I wasn't implying it was not logical, rather it is the physical explanation which has the most evidence, so I choose to believe that which is most likely to be true.

Although I'm not too convinced on either.

[QUOTE="danwallacefan"][QUOTE="Stryder1212"]

[QUOTE="danwallacefan"][QUOTE="Stryder1212"]Being a very logic-minded person, I am a physicalist.helium_flash

I wasn't implying it was not logical, rather it is the physical explanation which has the most evidence, so I choose to believe that which is most likely to be true.

Although I'm not too convinced on either.

Right, see an "out-of-body" experience is the closest thing I've heard of that comes close to being evidence for a non-phyiscalist approach. And even that is a rather flimsy piece of evidence, as perfectly rational explanations exist to counter any other non-physicalist explanations.

Right, see an "out-of-body" experience is the closest thing I've heard of that comes close to being evidence for a non-phyiscalist approach. And even that is a rather flimsy piece of evidence, as perfectly rational explanations exist to counter any other non-physicalist explanations.

Stryder1212

I would agree, if it weren't for the cases of a person reporting an out-of-body experience while being operated on and then relaying certain facts that the person shouldn't have known. I find it difficult to simply explain it as a hallucination in those situations.

[QUOTE="Stryder1212"]

Right, see an "out-of-body" experience is the closest thing I've heard of that comes close to being evidence for a non-phyiscalist approach. And even that is a rather flimsy piece of evidence, as perfectly rational explanations exist to counter any other non-physicalist explanations.

GabuEx

I would agree, if it weren't for the cases of a person reporting an out-of-body experience while being operated on and then relaying certain facts that the person shouldn't have known. I find it difficult to simply explain it as a hallucination in those situations.

Have a look, Gabu: http://users.erols.com/igoddard/paranorm.htm

@domatron: Perhaps I'm a physicalist then. I'll have to research this topic more when I get a chance.Genetic_Code

Yup I reckon it's well worth looking into. Perhaps you're a property dualist?

[QUOTE="_glatisant_"]As far as I'm concerned consciousness is purely the result of neurones. I agree that some accounts of out of body experiences are very hard to explain, but I don't think dualism is a good answer.GabuEx

What is a better answer then?

I don't know, but dualism would stray so far from scientific thought about the function of the brain that it would be an explanation I would be very reluctant to accept, even with a complete lack of an alternative.

[QUOTE="danwallacefan"][QUOTE="Stryder1212"]

[QUOTE="danwallacefan"][QUOTE="Stryder1212"]Being a very logic-minded person, I am a physicalist.helium_flash

I wasn't implying it was not logical, rather it is the physical explanation which has the most evidence, so I choose to believe that which is most likely to be true.

Although I'm not too convinced on either.

but if out-of-body experiences are the best you've seen, then that's pretty sad. The evidence for substance dualism mainly revolves around many thought experiments which seem to make no sense unless there is a non-physical mind.

[QUOTE="Genetic_Code"]@domatron: Perhaps I'm a physicalist then. I'll have to research this topic more when I get a chance.domatron23

Yup I reckon it's well worth looking into. Perhaps you're a property dualist?

Yeah, that's the term I was looking for. I like Wikipedia's analogy of a waving hand which can mean good-bye or hello. 

[QUOTE="helium_flash"][QUOTE="danwallacefan"][QUOTE="Stryder1212"]

[QUOTE="danwallacefan"][QUOTE="Stryder1212"]Being a very logic-minded person, I am a physicalist.danwallacefan

I wasn't implying it was not logical, rather it is the physical explanation which has the most evidence, so I choose to believe that which is most likely to be true.

Although I'm not too convinced on either.

but if out-of-body experiences are the best you've seen, then that's pretty sad. The evidence for substance dualism mainly revolves around many thought experiments which seem to make no sense unless there is a non-physical mind.

And since apparently I'm "sad" ( :roll: ), why don't you share some of this evidence you talk of?