An Atheist political presence?

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Bourbons3

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#1 Bourbons3
Member since 2003 • 24238 Posts
I once heard someone say that uniting Atheists would be like herding cats. I have to agree that Atheists don't have a very strong political lobby in the US, or in Britain for that matter, especially when you take numbers in to account - 'non-believers' in general make up around 10-15% of the population in the US, and about 20% in Britain (one survey even suggested that over 40% of Britain believed in no God). The Jewish lobby is well-known for being pretty strong despite their low numbers, and the LGBT lobby gets plenty of attention despite only making up 10% of the population. Do you think that an Atheist political presence is achievable? Do you think it should even exist?
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bean-with-bacon

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#2 bean-with-bacon
Member since 2008 • 2134 Posts

Maybe not atheist exactly (Too broad a category) but rather something like Pearlism or secular humanists, and yes I'm all for it.

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MetalGear_Ninty

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#3 MetalGear_Ninty
Member since 2008 • 6337 Posts

At least in Britain, there would just be no point. As far as I can tell, UK athesits don't suffer from any form of institutionalised prejudice or discrimination wharsoever. I also wouldn't like tosee anything like an atheist party, that'd just be nonsense.

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bean-with-bacon

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#4 bean-with-bacon
Member since 2008 • 2134 Posts

At least in Britain, there would just be no point. As far as I can tell, UK athesits don't suffer from any form of institutionalised prejudice or discrimination wharsoever. I also wouldn't like tosee anything like an atheist party, that'd just be nonsense.

MetalGear_Ninty

But it could stand for more then just stopping discrimination against atheists, for instance it could also take a strong stance on promoting scientific research and education, being against using religious reasoning in political matters, promoting reason and logic, freedom from religion etc etc, which is why I think just 'atheism' is too broad a category.

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MetalGear_Ninty

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#5 MetalGear_Ninty
Member since 2008 • 6337 Posts

[QUOTE="MetalGear_Ninty"]

At least in Britain, there would just be no point. As far as I can tell, UK athesits don't suffer from any form of institutionalised prejudice or discrimination wharsoever. I also wouldn't like tosee anything like an atheist party, that'd just be nonsense.

bean-with-bacon

But it could stand for more then just stopping discrimination against atheists, for instance it could also take a strong stance on promoting scientific research and education, being against using religious reasoning in political matters, promoting reason and logic, freedom from religion etc etc, which is why I think just 'atheism' is too broad a category.

But all those are attributes not inextricably linked with atheism; atheism does not have a monopoly over said attributes. Rather, I'd like to see those qualities linked with mainstream political parties rather than exclusively in niche organisations.

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bean-with-bacon

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#6 bean-with-bacon
Member since 2008 • 2134 Posts
[QUOTE="bean-with-bacon"]

[QUOTE="MetalGear_Ninty"]

At least in Britain, there would just be no point. As far as I can tell, UK athesits don't suffer from any form of institutionalised prejudice or discrimination wharsoever. I also wouldn't like tosee anything like an atheist party, that'd just be nonsense.

MetalGear_Ninty

But it could stand for more then just stopping discrimination against atheists, for instance it could also take a strong stance on promoting scientific research and education, being against using religious reasoning in political matters, promoting reason and logic, freedom from religion etc etc, which is why I think just 'atheism' is too broad a category.

But all those are attributes not inextricably linked with atheism; atheism does not have a monopoly over said attributes. Rather, I'd like to see those qualities linked with mainstream political parties rather than exclusively in niche organisations.

Of course it doesn't, which is why I think something based of pearlism, humanism, rationalism, or the like would be better then just atheism. And obviously having mainstream parties with those qualities would be much more ideal but quite frankly that is not going to happen anytime in the near future, so we might as well start somewhere with our own party.

 

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MetalGear_Ninty

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#7 MetalGear_Ninty
Member since 2008 • 6337 Posts
[QUOTE="MetalGear_Ninty"][QUOTE="bean-with-bacon"]

[QUOTE="MetalGear_Ninty"]

At least in Britain, there would just be no point. As far as I can tell, UK athesits don't suffer from any form of institutionalised prejudice or discrimination wharsoever. I also wouldn't like tosee anything like an atheist party, that'd just be nonsense.

bean-with-bacon

But it could stand for more then just stopping discrimination against atheists, for instance it could also take a strong stance on promoting scientific research and education, being against using religious reasoning in political matters, promoting reason and logic, freedom from religion etc etc, which is why I think just 'atheism' is too broad a category.

But all those are attributes not inextricably linked with atheism; atheism does not have a monopoly over said attributes. Rather, I'd like to see those qualities linked with mainstream political parties rather than exclusively in niche organisations.

Of course it doesn't, which is why I think something based of pearlism, humanism, rationalism, or the like would be better then just atheism. And obviously having mainstream parties with those qualities would be much more ideal but quite frankly that is not going to happen anytime in the near future, so we might as well start somewhere with our own party.

Well I think the church and the state should be completely seperated, and this includes atheisitic organisations, for if any organisation such as this were to have political power, that automatically excludes those who don't share your lack of faith by default. Therefore, such organisations are inherently divisive as strong political entities.

Not to mention, that pearlism and humainsm and the like are philosophical systems of thought, and thus dissociated from political governance.

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bean-with-bacon

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#8 bean-with-bacon
Member since 2008 • 2134 Posts
[QUOTE="bean-with-bacon"][QUOTE="MetalGear_Ninty"][QUOTE="bean-with-bacon"]

[QUOTE="MetalGear_Ninty"]

At least in Britain, there would just be no point. As far as I can tell, UK athesits don't suffer from any form of institutionalised prejudice or discrimination wharsoever. I also wouldn't like tosee anything like an atheist party, that'd just be nonsense.

MetalGear_Ninty

But it could stand for more then just stopping discrimination against atheists, for instance it could also take a strong stance on promoting scientific research and education, being against using religious reasoning in political matters, promoting reason and logic, freedom from religion etc etc, which is why I think just 'atheism' is too broad a category.

But all those are attributes not inextricably linked with atheism; atheism does not have a monopoly over said attributes. Rather, I'd like to see those qualities linked with mainstream political parties rather than exclusively in niche organisations.

 

Of course it doesn't, which is why I think something based of pearlism, humanism, rationalism, or the like would be better then just atheism. And obviously having mainstream parties with those qualities would be much more ideal but quite frankly that is not going to happen anytime in the near future, so we might as well start somewhere with our own party.

 

Well I think the church and the state should be completely seperated, and this includes atheisitic organisations, for if any organisation such as this were to have political power, that automatically excludes those who don't share your lack of faith by default. Therefore, such organisations are inherently divisive as strong political entities.

Not to mention, that pearlism and humainsm and the like are philosophical systems of thought, and thus dissociated from political governance.

Which is why I'm not advocating an atheistic party...

See all I'm really advocating is a party that promotes things like rationale enquiry and thinking, scientific research, freedom from religion, secular education, anti discrimination based on beliefs etc etc. Sure the majority of people in that party would probably be atheists but that doesn't necessarily require it to be an 'atheist party.'

Though whether that is a valid platform to build a party on I have no idea (politics aren't exactly my forte :P )

 

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MetalGear_Ninty

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#9 MetalGear_Ninty
Member since 2008 • 6337 Posts

Which is why I'm not advocating an atheistic party...

See all I'm really advocating is a party that promotes things like rationale enquiry and thinking, scientific research, freedom from religion, secular education, anti discrimination based on beliefs etc etc. Sure the majority of people in that party would probably be atheists but that doesn't necessarily require it to be an 'atheist party.'

Though whether that is a valid platform to build a party on I have no idea (politics aren't exactly my forte :P )

bean-with-bacon
Well whatever you'd call it, it'd be the atheist party in all but name. Any name you choose to call it would be nothing more than a cleverly engineered euphamism.
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itsTolkien_time

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#10 itsTolkien_time
Member since 2009 • 2295 Posts

We already have those in government that lobby against religious teaching and for the advancement of sciences, at least in schools.

I wouldn't mind an atheist political presence, we need more people to challenge religious ideals.

Lets face it, however, no religious person would ever vote an atheist into office.

 

Look what politics does for us, i mean, SARAH PALIN was almost let in the White House...I still can't believe it.

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#11 ChiliDragon
Member since 2006 • 8444 Posts
Lets face it, however, no religious person would ever vote an atheist into office.itsTolkien_time
Wrong. I know several who would. The ones who don't necessarily see a person's faith or lack thereof as a necessary part of the qualifications. If they are the best suited person for the job, who cares who they pray to, of if they pray at all? And that, by the way, should work both ways. ;)
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#12 bean-with-bacon
Member since 2008 • 2134 Posts

[QUOTE="itsTolkien_time"]Lets face it, however, no religious person would ever vote an atheist into office.ChiliDragon
Wrong. I know several who would. The ones who don't necessarily see a person's faith or lack thereof as a necessary part of the qualifications. If they are the best suited person for the job, who cares who they pray to, of if they pray at all? And that, by the way, should work both ways. ;)

I think there are actually some laws in some states that prevent atheists from running, not 100% sure on that though 

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#13 GabuEx
Member since 2006 • 36552 Posts

Lets face it, however, no religious person would ever vote an atheist into office.itsTolkien_time

Despite the obviously disheartening figure that almost half of America would not vote for an atheist for president, when one considers the fact that only around 10% of the country are not religious, that means that at least some religious people must be willing to vote for an atheist.

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#14 Bourbons3
Member since 2003 • 24238 Posts

[QUOTE="ChiliDragon"][QUOTE="itsTolkien_time"]Lets face it, however, no religious person would ever vote an atheist into office.bean-with-bacon

Wrong. I know several who would. The ones who don't necessarily see a person's faith or lack thereof as a necessary part of the qualifications. If they are the best suited person for the job, who cares who they pray to, of if they pray at all? And that, by the way, should work both ways. ;)

I think there are actually some laws in some states that prevent atheists from running, not 100% sure on that though 

That's true. And Atheists were voted the least American demographic in the country, even behind immigrants. There is currently only one open Atheist in Congress.
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#15 itsTolkien_time
Member since 2009 • 2295 Posts
What about Britain, then. What is the disribution of various religions in the government there? I suppose I was so negative on the religious votes because of an event that happened last year. In class we were discussing what we thought was necessary to a president. A girl raised her hand and said, "Christian". There was a murmer of agreement as the teacher wrote it down with the rest, words like "organized" and "dedicated". "Christian" sat among them, as if it belonged.
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#16 GabuEx
Member since 2006 • 36552 Posts

What about Britain, then. What is the disribution of various religions in the government there? I suppose I was so negative on the religious votes because of an event that happened last year. In class we were discussing what we thought was necessary to a president. A girl raised her hand and said, "Christian". There was a murmer of agreement as the teacher wrote it down with the rest, words like "organized" and "dedicated". "Christian" sat among them, as if it belonged.itsTolkien_time

I'm not sure, but according to a 2005 poll only around 40% of the country expressed a belief in God, so you're almost guaranteed to get some people in Parliament who don't believe in God with those numbers.

They do apparently have a Jedi MP, though.

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#17 MetalGear_Ninty
Member since 2008 • 6337 Posts

[QUOTE="itsTolkien_time"]What about Britain, then. What is the disribution of various religions in the government there? I suppose I was so negative on the religious votes because of an event that happened last year. In class we were discussing what we thought was necessary to a president. A girl raised her hand and said, "Christian". There was a murmer of agreement as the teacher wrote it down with the rest, words like "organized" and "dedicated". "Christian" sat among them, as if it belonged.GabuEx

I'm not sure, but according to a 2005 poll only around 40% of the country expressed a belief in God, so you're almost guaranteed to get some people in Parliament who don't believe in God with those numbers.

They do apparently have a Jedi MP, though.

Yep, David Miliband is probably the highest ranking, openly-atheist MP in the country. He could eventually be the prime minister one day.
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THUMPTABLE

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#18 THUMPTABLE
Member since 2003 • 2354 Posts
What about Britain, then. What is the disribution of various religions in the government there? I suppose I was so negative on the religious votes because of an event that happened last year. In class we were discussing what we thought was necessary to a president. A girl raised her hand and said, "Christian". There was a murmer of agreement as the teacher wrote it down with the rest, words like "organized" and "dedicated". "Christian" sat among them, as if it belonged.itsTolkien_time

That's a little disturbing, did you speak your mind?
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#19 ChiliDragon
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[QUOTE="itsTolkien_time"]What about Britain, then. What is the disribution of various religions in the government there? I suppose I was so negative on the religious votes because of an event that happened last year. In class we were discussing what we thought was necessary to a president. A girl raised her hand and said, "Christian". There was a murmer of agreement as the teacher wrote it down with the rest, words like "organized" and "dedicated". "Christian" sat among them, as if it belonged.THUMPTABLE

That's a little disturbing, did you speak your mind?

More than a little, to me. That's just my personal opinion though, but it does trouble me that "Christian" ranks higher than "competent" or "smart".
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#20 GabuEx
Member since 2006 • 36552 Posts

That's just my personal opinion though, but it does trouble me that "Christian" ranks higher than "competent" or "smart".ChiliDragon

To a lot of people I imagine that those are synonymous.

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#21 ChiliDragon
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[QUOTE="ChiliDragon"]That's just my personal opinion though, but it does trouble me that "Christian" ranks higher than "competent" or "smart".GabuEx

To a lot of people I imagine that those are synonymous.

That's the problem!!! :x
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#22 THUMPTABLE
Member since 2003 • 2354 Posts

[QUOTE="ChiliDragon"]That's just my personal opinion though, but it does trouble me that "Christian" ranks higher than "competent" or "smart".GabuEx

To a lot of people I imagine that those are synonymous.


Can i be blunt and say that's indicative of the US?
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#23 Bourbons3
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[QUOTE="itsTolkien_time"]What about Britain, then. What is the disribution of various religions in the government there? I suppose I was so negative on the religious votes because of an event that happened last year. In class we were discussing what we thought was necessary to a president. A girl raised her hand and said, "Christian". There was a murmer of agreement as the teacher wrote it down with the rest, words like "organized" and "dedicated". "Christian" sat among them, as if it belonged.

Alistair Campbell, Tony Blair's Director of Communications, famously said that the government didn't "do God". And Blair, once he was no longer PM, suddenly became hugely religious, because he knew that if he did that while he was still in the job, he's be seen as crazy, on some level. I couldn't bare living somewhere where "Christian" is as necessary as "dedicated".
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#24 ChiliDragon
Member since 2006 • 8444 Posts
[QUOTE="GabuEx"]

[QUOTE="ChiliDragon"]That's just my personal opinion though, but it does trouble me that "Christian" ranks higher than "competent" or "smart".THUMPTABLE

To a lot of people I imagine that those are synonymous.


Can i be blunt and say that's indicative of the US?

You can, but I doubt you'd be correct. Indicative of a certain type of American, that unfortunately is far too good at hogging all the spotlight and making the smart ones look bad, but not the country as a whole.
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#25 Maqda7
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See all I'm really advocating is a party that promotes things like rationale enquiry and thinking, scientific research, freedom from religion, secular education, anti discrimination based on beliefs etc etc. Sure the majority of people in that party would probably be atheists but that doesn't necessarily require it to be an 'atheist party.'

Though whether that is a valid platform to build a party on I have no idea (politics aren't exactly my forte :P )

bean-with-bacon

I agree with this 100%. I get chills everytime I hear that stem cell research that can potentially save hundred of thousands of lives be stopped in the name of religioun, it's ridiculous.

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itsTolkien_time

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#26 itsTolkien_time
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[QUOTE="itsTolkien_time"]What about Britain, then. What is the disribution of various religions in the government there? I suppose I was so negative on the religious votes because of an event that happened last year. In class we were discussing what we thought was necessary to a president. A girl raised her hand and said, "Christian". There was a murmer of agreement as the teacher wrote it down with the rest, words like "organized" and "dedicated". "Christian" sat among them, as if it belonged.Bourbons3
Alistair Campbell, Tony Blair's Director of Communications, famously said that the government didn't "do God". And Blair, once he was no longer PM, suddenly became hugely religious, because he knew that if he did that while he was still in the job, he's be seen as crazy, on some level. I couldn't bare living somewhere where "Christian" is as necessary as "dedicated".

Thanks for the response to the Britain question, and thanks to you too, Gabu.

It's not that bad living here, you get used to it. :P It's just part of life.