lol fighting for 2nd place gfx.
you get a gaming PC yet?
I actually had friends in college who built a minecraft server in a cardboard box. And one of my lab mates brought his mining rig in--it was a cardboard box running 4 7950s at max, he was told to take it back home because it was a fire hazard
Try to stay on topic. Bro you still don't get it nothing you posted proved the xbox one does have directx hardware support. Saying it doesn't is like saying AMD cards are built with no Mantle support!?
Would you yourself build a machine that's based on your own API without built in support. Think about tiled resources the fact that maxwell cards are built with tiled resources in mind and M$ has been working with them for who knows how long, do you really honestly think that they would not build the xbox one to support their own API. Honestly you can't be that biased.
Secondly it's not the same Xbox one audio block is capable of 512 audio streams at once PS4 is only capable of 200 and will require the help of the cpu.
Xbox One's SHAPE: Microsoft is very proud of their audio block as it was actually completely made from the ground up by their Xbox Team. It is capable of 512 audio channels (~300 more than Ps4's block), and is used to decode and encode audio data. It will be used to do high quality sound for games, and also help with Kinect's voice commands. They also have spoken about how they have allowed it to freely exchange data with the CPU in case a title decides to push some highly complex audio and requires CPU help to process. But yet you claim M$ did not customize their shit!?
When did I ever say anything about cpu reading from esram, that's why XBox has DMA engines.Stop tryna spin stuff to make yourself feel like you proved something. Besides that fact the moving things from esram to main memory can be done without any help from the cpu or gpu, thanks to those DMA engines.
So we have esram, two extra DMA engines, and an optimised audio block and you telling me that M$ did not customize the xbox one architecture.
How about this you find me a link that proves the Xbox one has not been customized by M$, and stop tryna run away from the topic at hand.
1-On topic you bring new shit every time i own you and get even more own each time..haha
2-The xbox one was build years before DX12,the xbox one begin in 2010,like all consoles it take times,DX12 is not out until late 2015 almost 6 years away,the xbox 360 was DX9 and DX10 came latter and the 360 didn't support it period,the same apply here when the XBO was build DX12 hardware requirement were non existent,DX12 started on 2013..lol
3-Yeah the xbox one is more capable on that regard because of Kinect,arguing that Shapes is better than AMD True Audio is dull you don't get graphics power from that sound chip,and for all intended purposes both have hardware for audio,oh and most of Shapes is for Kinect stated on Byond3B by some one who worker on it.
4-DMA engines don't make the xbox one CPU see the same data as the ESRAM..hahhaaa
I was just showing you how MS openly lie about it,and then correct it.
You don't understand what HSA is either ..hahaha The xbox one has to do redundant copy and paste between CPU and GPU when the PS4 doesn't have to,so the xbox one can have 180GB/s and would waste many of it because it has to copy paste multiple time the PS4 doesn't.
You find me one were they say they have custom hardware for DX12 since you are the on claiming it does,back it up...lol
@tormentos:
I am not sure why you quoted me when the reply isn't really related to my content. I am not sure if you can agree on that, it would be easier for PC DX12 games be ported to XboxOne and still have really nice (if not perfect) low level utilization performance. You long posts tend to staying away from such idea.
Because you call me tomato and claim i would spin it..lol
Oh DX12 will make porting games from PC to XBO much easier there is no doubt about that,the performance gains that is another 2 cents.
lol fighting for 2nd place gfx.
you get a gaming PC yet?
Probably not shameful lemming are the worse posters,damn at least when the PS3 was getting the short end of the stick in multiplatforms i still was a cow and defended sony without pretending to be a Hermit..lol
@tormentos: I have no affiliation with tboy at all. I signed up at E3. I could care less who wins or losses as i have no preference between the consoles. I game on both equally. I just like blood and want to see some kicked off the board. So either take the bet or keep posting irrelevant spam.
1-On topic you bring new shit every time i own you and get even more own each time..haha
2-The xbox one was build years before DX12,the xbox one begin in 2010,like all consoles it take times,DX12 is not out until late 2015 almost 6 years away,the xbox 360 was DX9 and DX10 came latter and the 360 didn't support it period,the same apply here when the XBO was build DX12 hardware requirement were non existent,DX12 started on 2013..lol
3-Yeah the xbox one is more capable on that regard because of Kinect,arguing that Shapes is better than AMD True Audio is dull you don't get graphics power from that sound chip,and for all intended purposes both have hardware for audio,oh and most of Shapes is for Kinect stated on Byond3B by some one who worker on it.
4-DMA engines don't make the xbox one CPU see the same data as the ESRAM..hahhaaa
I was just showing you how MS openly lie about it,and then correct it.
You don't understand what HSA is either ..hahaha The xbox one has to do redundant copy and paste between CPU and GPU when the PS4 doesn't have to,so the xbox one can have 180GB/s and would waste many of it because it has to copy paste multiple time the PS4 doesn't.
You find me one were they say they have custom hardware for DX12 since you are the on claiming it does,back it up...lol
1) Everytime I bring somethjing new it's relevant to our discussion unlike what you try and do.
2) Second developing software takes time just like building a console, Directx 12 was announced in 2013 but inside M$ they already knew it was coming. You know how companies have product road maps, do you think Nvidia just started designing the Maxwell cards in 2013. No they work closely with M$ so they new dx12 was coming, everyone new directx 12 was coming since around the time AMD announced mantle.
3) Yea but my point is you trying to say M$ did not customize the xbox one hardware once they got it. Secondly who said anything about graphics power I made a reference to xbox sound block having it's own processor so it can work without using any cpu.
4) DMA move things from esram to main memory that the cpu needs to see, they don't need the cpu or gpu to move things from esram to main memory. haha yourself
5) didnt prove anything that I don't already know about both companies difference is my article was from 2010 yours was from 2005.
I do understand HSA but you don't understand anything about Xbox one architecture, it's to difficult for you to comprehend. DMA engines are like a work around to HSA. PS4 is the easier system to understand but, it's not balanced. You saw Sony even said when the cpu is being used bandwidth drops, and cpu will have to do other task such as audio processing. With those DMA engines the cpu and gpu don't have to copy and paste anything they work on their own.
Digital Foundry: So often you're CPU bound. That explains why so many of the Data Move Engine functions seem to be about offloading CPU?
Andrew Goossen: Yeah, again I think we under-balanced and we had that great opportunity to change that balance late in the game. The DMA Move Engines also help the GPU significantly as well. For some scenarios there, imagine you've rendered to a depth buffer there in ESRAM. And now you're switching to another depth buffer. You may want to go and pull what is now a texture into DDR so that you can texture out of it later and you're not doing tons of reads from that texture so it actually makes more sense for it to be in DDR. You can use the Move Engines to move these things asynchronously in concert with the GPU so the GPU isn't spending any time on the move. You've got the DMA engine doing it. Now the GPU can go on and immediately work on the next render target rather than simply move bits around.
It's not just off the shelf parts they made xbox one to be a balanced system, not a powerhouse hype system with bottlenecks.
@slimdogmilionar:
You're one of the sharpest pencils in the drawer my man - the systems are close and both have their strengths and weaknesses.
No matter, he and ilk won't listen and are just very insecure about their position ( PS4 is da powah house bestest console evah ) and knowing what's coming, can ya blame'em? :P
@SecretPolice: yea @tormentos gets his panties in a bunch whenever anybody says anything good about xbox. I'm more intrigued by xbox architecture because it's something new and harder to understand. When you look at PS4 it's clear to see what's there and you can pretty much see it's strengths and weaknesses, but when you look at xbox it's not that cut and dry.
@slimdogmilionar:
Precisely, feel about the same and intrigued to see where we're at in about two years with these new consoles. Time will tell and to act like anything is a forgone conclusion at this stage is just so short sighted.
@tormentos: I have no affiliation with tboy at all. I signed up at E3. I could care less who wins or losses as i have no preference between the consoles. I game on both equally. I just like blood and want to see some kicked off the board. So either take the bet or keep posting irrelevant spam.
Yeah i believe you...
The fun thing part is that the one spamming is you..hahaha
1) Everytime I bring somethjing new it's relevant to our discussion unlike what you try and do.
2) Second developing software takes time just like building a console, Directx 12 was announced in 2013 but inside M$ they already knew it was coming. You know how companies have product road maps, do you think Nvidia just started designing the Maxwell cards in 2013. No they work closely with M$ so they new dx12 was coming, everyone new directx 12 was coming since around the time AMD announced mantle.
3) Yea but my point is you trying to say M$ did not customize the xbox one hardware once they got it. Secondly who said anything about graphics power I made a reference to xbox sound block having it's own processor so it can work without using any cpu.
4) DMA move things from esram to main memory that the cpu needs to see, they don't need the cpu or gpu to move things from esram to main memory. haha yourself
5) didnt prove anything that I don't already know about both companies difference is my article was from 2010 yours was from 2005.
I do understand HSA but you don't understand anything about Xbox one architecture, it's to difficult for you to comprehend. DMA engines are like a work around to HSA. PS4 is the easier system to understand but, it's not balanced. You saw Sony even said when the cpu is being used bandwidth drops, and cpu will have to do other task such as audio processing. With those DMA engines the cpu and gpu don't have to copy and paste anything they work on their own.
Digital Foundry: So often you're CPU bound. That explains why so many of the Data Move Engine functions seem to be about offloading CPU?
Andrew Goossen: Yeah, again I think we under-balanced and we had that great opportunity to change that balance late in the game. The DMA Move Engines also help the GPU significantly as well. For some scenarios there, imagine you've rendered to a depth buffer there in ESRAM. And now you're switching to another depth buffer. You may want to go and pull what is now a texture into DDR so that you can texture out of it later and you're not doing tons of reads from that texture so it actually makes more sense for it to be in DDR. You can use the Move Engines to move these things asynchronously in concert with the GPU so the GPU isn't spending any time on the move. You've got the DMA engine doing it. Now the GPU can go on and immediately work on the next render target rather than simply move bits around.
It's not just off the shelf parts they made xbox one to be a balanced system, not a powerhouse hype system with bottlenecks.
1-It is you who bring irrelevant crap and spins.
2-STFU prove the XBO has DX12 hardware shut up as simple as that you claim it you back it up with LINKS not your opinion.
3-The customization they did was to fit ESRAM,it has 2 extra DMA because the hardware is gimped memory wise,compare to using GDDR5,and they even admit that the biggest customization they did was cutting down computer units on the GPU..hahahaa
4-Wrong to be HSA the data need to be constantly seeing by both all the time,when the data is inside the ESRAM the CPU can't see it stated already by MS,so no HSA when DMA have to move the date to the memory adress so teh CPU could see it,it is to late the CPU already loss view of the data inside the ESRAM.
5-That MS lie about bandwidth and that the xbox 360 having supposedly 5 times more bandwidth than ESRAM accounted for nothig.
6-Oh i do and is you who is always spinning and talking sh** you don't even know,the fact that you believe that Partially Resident Textures and Tile Resources is not the same says it all,you don't know sh** and developer already have stated that both are the same,even a middle ware engine maker also stated,MS tricked you like a fool..hahaha
You keep quoting an interview with a desperate MS which i already prove it lie on that article..
Digital Foundry: When you look at the specs of the GPU, it looks very much like Microsoft chose the AMD Bonaire design and Sony chose Pitcairn - and obviously one has got many more compute units than the other. Let's talk a little bit about the GPU - what AMD family is it based on: Southern Islands, Sea Islands, Volcanic Islands?
Andrew Goossen: Just like our friends we're based on the Sea Islands family. We've made quite a number of changes in different parts of the areas. The biggest thing in terms of the number of compute units, that's been something that's been very easy to focus on. It's like, hey, let's count up the number of CUs, count up the gigaflops and declare the winner based on that. My take on it is that when you buy a graphics card, do you go by the specs or do you actually run some benchmarks? Firstly though, we don't have any games out. You can't see the games. When you see the games you'll be saying, "What is the performance difference between them?" The games are the benchmarks. We've had the opportunity with the Xbox One to go and check a lot of our balance. The balance is really key to making good performance on a games console. You don't want one of your bottlenecks being the main bottleneck that slows you down.
How did that ^^^ Balance turn out.? He claim the games would be the benchmarks and what happen on launch.?
Yeah 720p BF4,720p Ghost...hahaha
You don't get it the PS4 has stronger hardware,the XBO has no DX12 hardware is just a gimped 7790..lol
@SecretPolice: yea @tormentos gets his panties in a bunch whenever anybody says anything good about xbox. I'm more intrigued by xbox architecture because it's something new and harder to understand. When you look at PS4 it's clear to see what's there and you can pretty much see it's strengths and weaknesses, but when you look at xbox it's not that cut and dry.
No i just like to correct secret sauce lovers like you who can't admit that MS play you like fools,that their hardware is weak because they had a vision with Kinect which they fallow from the very start to the end.
MS has tons of cash if their intention was making a powerful console they would have pack a 7950 or better GPU with GDDR5 because they know it would have been better,they even try to downplay GDDR5 which is the freaking standard for graphics,and they try to claim that after 14CU the performance gains were little,total freaking lie,hell they didn't even balance their hardware at 14 CU it has 12,another lie on that same article.
That article was nothing but a PR announce pay by MS...hahaha
1-It is you who bring irrelevant crap and spins.
2-STFU prove the XBO has DX12 hardware shut up as simple as that you claim it you back it up with LINKS not your opinion.
3-The customization they did was to fit ESRAM,it has 2 extra DMA because the hardware is gimped memory wise,compare to using GDDR5,and they even admit that the biggest customization they did was cutting down computer units on the GPU..hahahaa
4-Wrong to be HSA the data need to be constantly seeing by both all the time,when the data is inside the ESRAM the CPU can't see it stated already by MS,so no HSA when DMA have to move the date to the memory adress so teh CPU could see it,it is to late the CPU already loss view of the data inside the ESRAM.
5-That MS lie about bandwidth and that the xbox 360 having supposedly 5 times more bandwidth than ESRAM accounted for nothig.
6-Oh i do and is you who is always spinning and talking sh** you don't even know,the fact that you believe that Partially Resident Textures and Tile Resources is not the same says it all,you don't know sh** and developer already have stated that both are the same,even a middle ware engine maker also stated,MS tricked you like a fool..hahaha
You keep quoting an interview with a desperate MS which i already prove it lie on that article..
Digital Foundry: When you look at the specs of the GPU, it looks very much like Microsoft chose the AMD Bonaire design and Sony chose Pitcairn - and obviously one has got many more compute units than the other. Let's talk a little bit about the GPU - what AMD family is it based on: Southern Islands, Sea Islands, Volcanic Islands?
Andrew Goossen: Just like our friends we're based on the Sea Islands family. We've made quite a number of changes in different parts of the areas. The biggest thing in terms of the number of compute units, that's been something that's been very easy to focus on. It's like, hey, let's count up the number of CUs, count up the gigaflops and declare the winner based on that. My take on it is that when you buy a graphics card, do you go by the specs or do you actually run some benchmarks? Firstly though, we don't have any games out. You can't see the games. When you see the games you'll be saying, "What is the performance difference between them?" The games are the benchmarks. We've had the opportunity with the Xbox One to go and check a lot of our balance. The balance is really key to making good performance on a games console. You don't want one of your bottlenecks being the main bottleneck that slows you down.
How did that ^^^ Balance turn out.? He claim the games would be the benchmarks and what happen on launch.?
Yeah 720p BF4,720p Ghost...hahaha
You don't get it the PS4 has stronger hardware,the XBO has no DX12 hardware is just a gimped 7790..lol
@SecretPolice: yea @tormentos gets his panties in a bunch whenever anybody says anything good about xbox. I'm more intrigued by xbox architecture because it's something new and harder to understand. When you look at PS4 it's clear to see what's there and you can pretty much see it's strengths and weaknesses, but when you look at xbox it's not that cut and dry.
No i just like to correct secret sauce lovers like you who can't admit that MS play you like fools,that their hardware is weak because they had a vision with Kinect which they fallow from the very start to the end.
MS has tons of cash if their intention was making a powerful console they would have pack a 7950 or better GPU with GDDR5 because they know it would have been better,they even try to downplay GDDR5 which is the freaking standard for graphics,and they try to claim that after 14CU the performance gains were little,total freaking lie,hell they didn't even balance their hardware at 14 CU it has 12,another lie on that same article.
That article was nothing but a PR announce pay by MS...hahaha
1) prove some irrelevant points I brought in to the discussion
2) Prove to me it was not built with Directx12 in mind, there is no concrete evidence of it supporting or not supporting directx12 but based on having common sense and the hints that they have thrown around would suggest that they did:
Read number 5 and 6 very closely, you have one of the head engineers of Directx working with the head manager of the xbox one hardware. I guess in working together, in all that time while looking at all available technologies and where they are going Goossen forgot to mention Directx12 coming out not long after the Xbox one launched. Does that make any sense to you? Does it make any sense for people who work in the same company on the same projects to keep secrets from each other. You mean to tell me everyone else was building their products with Dx12 in mind except M$.
3) Thank you for proving my point that they did customize the architecture.
4) How am I wrong I never said DMA engines were full HSA just a work around if you can't see that then you really don't understand anything about the xbone architecture. You would only move a texture over to main memory that does not rely on fast bandwidth in order to not fill esram and also make it more efficient. You can texture out of esram and ddr3 at the same time so you can mix and match where you store textures.
Sometimes you want to get the GPU texture out of memory and on Xbox 360 that required what's called a "resolve pass" where you had to do a copy into DDR to get the texture out - that was another limitation we removed in ESRAM, as you can now texture out of ESRAM if you want to.
5) I wonder why everyone else came up with the same numbers for edram then?
6) They didn't lie it's just having the cpu read from esram is extremely slow so using the DMA engines is the better option which is why they say no access to esram.
Since you know more than any engineer to ever work on any system you should know this already. Innovation does not come from doing the same thing over and over again or being biased. They did not try to downplay gddr5 at all they said it did not fit into their vision. They wanted a low latency well balanced system where each component could operate at it's peak performance. That statement alone let's you know they weren't going to go with a unified system. To do that you need seperate memory for gpu and cpu because the gpu favors bandwidth and the cpu favors low latency. This is computer basics, you should know this Mr. Architect. Esram is less power hungry than gddr5 while still having high bandwidth, 32mb of esram is cheaper than 6gb of Gddr5. With Tiled resources and being able to fit 3gb tile pool into 16mb, they kill 2 birds with one stone, you have high bandwidth fast memory and the texture storage you would get from 6gb of gddr5, and it's cheaper. The only thing missing was HSA add the DMA engines and you have a workaround then add in self sufficient audio block to keep the cpu from doing audio tasks. That's what being a developer/engineer is about approaching problems and finding new innovative solutions to reach your goals. You would suck at that job because you have a bad case of tunnel vision.
Tell me what are PS4's weaknesses? or does it have none?
@tormentos:
That's because I love seeing baseless arguments on the internet. The fanboy loyalty you two children...... make that 3 children is laughable.
@tormentos:
That's because I love seeing baseless arguments on the internet. The fanboy loyalty you two children...... make that 3 children is laughable.
you must have a really boring and sad life if that gives you any kind of satisfaction/fun.
1) prove some irrelevant points I brought in to the discussion
2) Prove to me it was not built with Directx12 in mind, there is no concrete evidence of it supporting or not supporting directx12 but based on having common sense and the hints that they have thrown around would suggest that they did:
Read number 5 very closely, you have one of the head engineers of Directx working with the head manager of the xbox one hardware. I guess in working together, in all that time while looking at all available technologies and where they are going Goossen forgot to mention Directx12 coming out not long after the Xbox one launched. Does that make any sense to you? Does it make any sense for people who work in the same company on the same projects to keep secrets from each other.
3) Thank you for proving my point that they did customize the architecture.
4) How am I wrong I never said DMA engines were full HSA just a work around if you can't see that then you really don't understand anything about the xbone architecture. You would only move a texture over to main memory that does not rely on fast bandwidth in order to not fill esram and also make it more efficient. You can texture out of esram and ddr3 at the same time so you can mix and match where you store textures.
1-I am quoting it now...look at number 5.
2-No it is you who need to know how things are done,if you claim DX12 has xbox one support hardware wise you most back it up,because the xbox one uses a GCN GPU which doesn't have hardware support for it,Nvidia Maxwell will have support because it is a new 2014 GPU and DX12 come after it,much like DX12 will support tile resources which came on 2011 and which Opengl has support since 2011 as well.
MS will support on PC on 2015 what Opengl has since 2011.
1-No the software was build way after the hardware in this case,GCN predates the xbox one and PS4.
2-It doesn't mean that apply to the xbox one when it comes to hardware support.
3-PRT support the same sh**.
4-DX12 isn't here to Maxwell will get support by late 2015 when DX12 arrive on PC,Maxwell has compatible hardware with DX12 again proving my point that the hardware come first the software latter and GCN has no DX12 support.
5-Comepletely irrelevant and show that you bring irrelevant shit,it doesn't say DX12 any where because DX11.2 was barely hitting when that interview was given,and DX12 was no were to be seen..lol
DX12 is on xbox one already buffoon,yeah sony has hardware support for DX12 to prove me wrong,Cerny just forgot to mention it..Yeah that pathetic your argument sound,so you have no back up for your argument no link nothing.
In fact DX12 on PC will come 2 years after the XBO is out so shortly after lol...
But then again the xbox one doesn't need something that since day 1 it had.
3-Yes they did they took away CU added ESRAM and DMA,now prove to me they added hardware support for DX12 features...lol Ill wait..
4-DMA is not a workaround for HSA,no CPU access to ESRAM no HSA is simple.
That has nothing to do with HSA and more with bandwidth usage hahaha how sad you are..
lems expecting a miracle out of dx12 on the xbone will be in for a disappointment. Consoles not only have low level api support from day one but whatever new stuff dx12 will allow the xbone will not even be able to render it anyway.
dx12 might be big for PC but for the xbone it will be nothing. An Api can't make weak hw become more powerful.
DX12 is the key. What does keys do? I think cows will be in for a rude awakening at next years E3.
@tormentos:
That's because I love seeing baseless arguments on the internet. The fanboy loyalty you two children...... make that 3 children is laughable.
Prove it...lol
lems expecting a miracle out of dx12 on the xbone will be in for a disappointment. Consoles not only have low level api support from day one but whatever new stuff dx12 will allow the xbone will not even be able to render it anyway.
dx12 might be big for PC but for the xbone it will be nothing. An Api can't make weak hw become more powerful.
DX12 is the key. What does keys do? I think cows will be in for a rude awakening at next years E3.
DX12 is MS xbox tools on PC,aside from some hardware features that the xbox one doesn't have support to it has DX12 already.
Low level api,more draw calls,to the metal push this are things for console you buffoon you don't know it because you have a PHD in stupidity
Even Phill spencer it state to not expect a huge change..lol
Didn't you say that last year as well.? oh wait you move it to 2015,and next year it will be for 2016..hahahaha
lems expecting a miracle out of dx12 on the xbone will be in for a disappointment. Consoles not only have low level api support from day one but whatever new stuff dx12 will allow the xbone will not even be able to render it anyway.
dx12 might be big for PC but for the xbone it will be nothing. An Api can't make weak hw become more powerful.
DX12 is the key. What does keys do? I think cows will be in for a rude awakening at next years E3.
haven't you been saying the same for the last two years?
just you wait for teh secret sauce (lems official motto) another year, another secret sauce denied.
DX12 is MS xbox tools on PC,aside from some hardware features that the xbox one doesn't have support to it has DX12 already.
Low level api,more draw calls,to the metal push this are things for console you buffoon you don't know it because you have a PHD in stupidity
Even Phill spencer it state to not expect a huge change..lol
Didn't you say that last year as well.? oh wait you move it to 2015,and next year it will be for 2016..hahahaha
DX12 will be no secret sauce for the XB1 obviously. The GPU will hold the console back all generation. But you keep saying that the Xbox One has DX12 already. That's not entirely true. The Xbox One will never have the full feature set that PC will get with DX12, but there will be some improvements. 1080p/60fps won't happen, but things like PC ports will be better once developers have worked with the new tools.
Consolites need to buckle in and accept that the consoles are underpowerd by 2012 standards. Does that really matter? Not really. Developers have done great things with dated hardware in the past, and will continue to do so this generation.
@tormentos:
That's because I love seeing baseless arguments on the internet. The fanboy loyalty you two children...... make that 3 children is laughable.
you must have a really boring and sad life if that gives you any kind of satisfaction/fun.
People arguing over the internet is very entertaining. Thats why we are all here. I
@tormentos:
That's because I love seeing baseless arguments on the internet. The fanboy loyalty you two children...... make that 3 children is laughable.
Prove it...lol
lems expecting a miracle out of dx12 on the xbone will be in for a disappointment. Consoles not only have low level api support from day one but whatever new stuff dx12 will allow the xbone will not even be able to render it anyway.
dx12 might be big for PC but for the xbone it will be nothing. An Api can't make weak hw become more powerful.
DX12 is the key. What does keys do? I think cows will be in for a rude awakening at next years E3.
DX12 is MS xbox tools on PC,aside from some hardware features that the xbox one doesn't have support to it has DX12 already.
Low level api,more draw calls,to the metal push this are things for console you buffoon you don't know it because you have a PHD in stupidity
Even Phill spencer it state to not expect a huge change..lol
Didn't you say that last year as well.? oh wait you move it to 2015,and next year it will be for 2016..hahahaha
The proof doesn't lay with me. It lays with you and ttboy.
@tormentos:
That's because I love seeing baseless arguments on the internet. The fanboy loyalty you two children...... make that 3 children is laughable.
Prove it...lol
lems expecting a miracle out of dx12 on the xbone will be in for a disappointment. Consoles not only have low level api support from day one but whatever new stuff dx12 will allow the xbone will not even be able to render it anyway.
dx12 might be big for PC but for the xbone it will be nothing. An Api can't make weak hw become more powerful.
DX12 is the key. What does keys do? I think cows will be in for a rude awakening at next years E3.
DX12 is MS xbox tools on PC,aside from some hardware features that the xbox one doesn't have support to it has DX12 already.
Low level api,more draw calls,to the metal push this are things for console you buffoon you don't know it because you have a PHD in stupidity
Even Phill spencer it state to not expect a huge change..lol
Didn't you say that last year as well.? oh wait you move it to 2015,and next year it will be for 2016..hahahaha
The proof doesn't lay with me. It lays with you and ttboy.
He won't take the bet even though he is 100% sure. I'm not 100% but I am reasonably confident to do it. Sony fans lack the courage of their convictions. :)
@tormentos
I still don't understand where you are getting that DirectX12 is already being used on Xbox One. Here are a few quotes that would state otherwise. Will it be a secret sauce PS4 killer? No. The Xbox One will be gimped by the GPU and esram. But there are improvements that will be had once the DX12 tools are being used by developers.
“I think there is a lot of confusion around what and why DX12 will improve. Most games out there can’t go 1080p because the additional load on the shading units would be too much. For all these games DX12 is not going to change anything,”
“They might be able to push more triangles to the GPU but they are not going to be able to shade them, which defeats the purpose. To answer the first question, I think we will see a change in the way graphics programmers will think about their pipelines and this will result in much better systems hopefully.”
http://www.cinemablend.com/games/Xbox-One-Unlikely-Hit-1080p-With-DX12-Says-Witcher-3-Dev-66567.html
"The ‘full’ DX12 low level will likely bring a few performance improvements – but nothing like what’s available on PC."
http://www.redgamingtech.com/dx12-70-performance-increase-pc-xbox-one/
"Just last month, Xbox head Phil Spencer downplayed the potential performance boost we can expect to see out of DirectX 12 on the Xbox One. Better APIs will make developing for the Xbox One an easier task, but without a hardware upgrade, Microsoft’s console simply won’t stand up to the PS4 graphically."
http://www.extremetech.com/gaming/187549-directx-12-is-coming-next-year-but-it-probably-wont-help-xbox-one-games-run-at-1080p
"Most games out there can't go 1080p because the additional load on the shading units would be too much. For all these games DX12 is not going to change anything."
http://www.gamespot.com/articles/xbox-one-1080p-obstacle-not-solved-by-directx-12-w/1100-6421478/
lems expecting a miracle out of dx12 on the xbone will be in for a disappointment. Consoles not only have low level api support from day one but whatever new stuff dx12 will allow the xbone will not even be able to render it anyway.
dx12 might be big for PC but for the xbone it will be nothing. An Api can't make weak hw become more powerful.
DX12 is the key. What does keys do? I think cows will be in for a rude awakening at next years E3.
haven't you been saying the same for the last two years?
just you wait for teh secret sauce (lems official motto) another year, another secret sauce denied.
I never said anything about any secret sauce. I'm not a food critic and this isn't the McDonaldland forum. lmao!! I said E3 2015 and beyond. The XB1 hasn't even been out for a year. Just shows how stupid you really are. What happened to I_can_haz & misterxmedia? They got banned for life or something? Maybe they are using alts. lol!!
1-I am quoting it now...look at number 5.
2-No it is you who need to know how things are done,if you claim DX12 has xbox one support hardware wise you most back it up,because the xbox one uses a GCN GPU which doesn't have hardware support for it,Nvidia Maxwell will have support because it is a new 2014 GPU and DX12 come after it,much like DX12 will support tile resources which came on 2011 and which Opengl has support since 2011 as well.
MS will support on PC on 2015 what Opengl has since 2011.
1-No the software was build way after the hardware in this case,GCN predates the xbox one and PS4.
2-It doesn't mean that apply to the xbox one when it comes to hardware support.
3-PRT support the same sh**.
4-DX12 isn't here to Maxwell will get support by late 2015 when DX12 arrive on PC,Maxwell has compatible hardware with DX12 again proving my point that the hardware come first the software latter and GCN has no DX12 support.
5-Comepletely irrelevant and show that you bring irrelevant shit,it doesn't say DX12 any where because DX11.2 was barely hitting when that interview was given,and DX12 was no were to be seen..lol
DX12 is on xbox one already buffoon,yeah sony has hardware support for DX12 to prove me wrong,Cerny just forgot to mention it..Yeah that pathetic your argument sound,so you have no back up for your argument no link nothing.
In fact DX12 on PC will come 2 years after the XBO is out so shortly after lol...
But then again the xbox one doesn't need something that since day 1 it had.
3-Yes they did they took away CU added ESRAM and DMA,now prove to me they added hardware support for DX12 features...lol Ill wait..
4-DMA is not a workaround for HSA,no CPU access to ESRAM no HSA is simple.
That has nothing to do with HSA and more with bandwidth usage hahaha how sad you are..
1 and 5) So what you are telling me is that Goosen was working on Directx 12 and the xbox at the same time yet he forgot to mention this to the hardware engineers. The point of number five was to show you that when building the xbox one they took into account where technology was going in the future. "When we start looking at what's the next console going to look like, we're always on top of the roadmap, understanding where that is and how appropriate to combine with game developers and software technology and get that all together." How was directx just hitting we heard about directx12 through the grapevines when AMD first announced Mantle, there were rumors that M$ was working on a new low level API. Stop tryna downplay M$ like they are some kindergarten level developers.
My claims are just as hear say as yours but the point I'm trying to make is that there is more evidence supporting the fact that they did build it with Dx12 in mind than not. Let's not forget the xbox 360 tessellation and Directx11, the xbox 360 was built in 2005 yet it had a tessellation unit built in to support an API that came out years later. Xbox one was built inheriting an already existing Dx11 design yet M$ refer to DX11 as the top API. Now we all know PS4 has a lower API than the One does at the moment.
Same concept M$ just does it a different way /http://wccftech.com/directx-11-3-api/
Lol so you are telling me that hardware comes first and then the software. So only Nvidia built their gpu to support Directx yet M$ didn't. Yet you go a step further to say Sony has hardware support for Dx12 but M$ doesn't. So you are telling me that Sony went to M$ and got info about Dx12 coming and built their console to support it, because you said yourself that GCN doesn't have Dx12 support but now Sony somehow built it into the PS4, and Cerny just "forgot to mention it", ok so xbox one supports SPURS then by your logic. According to you everybody in the industry has support for Dx12 except M$, even their competition. Why would the head of the directx team not inform the head of the hardware team that they were working on dx.
Did you Know: Xbox got it's name from directx, they initially thought of calling it a directx box. A console box that supports directx, later shortened to XBOX.
How does DMA not have anything to do with HSA, you call me sad. Then what is the point of the Dma engines dude? If they are not a work around to HSA then what are they. I just said that the xbox does not have HSA so move engines are the work around.
Directx 12 is not on xbox but you keep tryna say it is so prove it.
read this edit from my original post.
Since you know more than any engineer to ever work on any system you should know this already. Innovation does not come from doing the same thing over and over again or being biased. They did not try to downplay gddr5 at all they said it did not fit into their vision. They wanted a low latency well balanced system where each component could operate at it's peak performance. That statement alone let's you know they weren't going to go with a unified system. To do that you need seperate memory for gpu and cpu because the gpu favors bandwidth and the cpu favors low latency. This is computer basics, you should know this Mr. Architect. Esram is less power hungry than gddr5 while still having high bandwidth, 32mb of esram is cheaper than 6gb of Gddr5. With Tiled resources and being able to fit 3gb tile pool into 16mb, they kill 2 birds with one stone, you have high bandwidth fast memory and the texture storage you would get from 6gb of gddr5, and it's cheaper. The only thing missing was HSA, add the DMA engines and you have a workaround, then add in a self sufficient audio block to keep the cpu from doing audio tasks. That's what being a developer/engineer is about approaching problems and finding new innovative solutions to reach your goals. You would suck at that job because you have a bad case of tunnel vision.
Tell me what are PS4's weaknesses? or does it have none?
The proof doesn't lay with me. It lays with you and ttboy.
You are the one talking about baseless arguments prove it..
He won't take the bet even though he is 100% sure. I'm not 100% but I am reasonably confident to do it. Sony fans lack the courage of their convictions. :)
I take the bet any game that comes in 1080p on PS4 and lower on xbox one mean your out of here no buts,using what developers say like you wanted is sh** many developers speak nothing but greatness about both sony and MS,but the games it self show the reality,if a game is inferior in any way that mean DX12 failed...
Go on take the bet i now dare you..
@tormentos
I still don't understand where you are getting that DirectX12 is already being used on Xbox One. Here are a few quotes that would state otherwise. Will it be a secret sauce PS4 killer? No. The Xbox One will be gimped by the GPU and esram. But there are improvements that will be had once the DX12 tools are being used by developers.
“I think there is a lot of confusion around what and why DX12 will improve. Most games out there can’t go 1080p because the additional load on the shading units would be too much. For all these games DX12 is not going to change anything,”
“They might be able to push more triangles to the GPU but they are not going to be able to shade them, which defeats the purpose. To answer the first question, I think we will see a change in the way graphics programmers will think about their pipelines and this will result in much better systems hopefully.”
http://www.cinemablend.com/games/Xbox-One-Unlikely-Hit-1080p-With-DX12-Says-Witcher-3-Dev-66567.html
"The ‘full’ DX12 low level will likely bring a few performance improvements – but nothing like what’s available on PC."
http://www.redgamingtech.com/dx12-70-performance-increase-pc-xbox-one/
"Just last month, Xbox head Phil Spencer downplayed the potential performance boost we can expect to see out of DirectX 12 on the Xbox One. Better APIs will make developing for the Xbox One an easier task, but without a hardware upgrade, Microsoft’s console simply won’t stand up to the PS4 graphically."
http://www.extremetech.com/gaming/187549-directx-12-is-coming-next-year-but-it-probably-wont-help-xbox-one-games-run-at-1080p
"Most games out there can't go 1080p because the additional load on the shading units would be too much. For all these games DX12 is not going to change anything."
http://www.gamespot.com/articles/xbox-one-1080p-obstacle-not-solved-by-directx-12-w/1100-6421478/
We know that DX 12 will have a fairly strong impact on PC games when it launches late next year but will it have the same technical impact on the Xbox One? Interestingly, Engel revealed that, “The Xbox One already has an API which is similar to DirectX 12. So Microsoft implemented a driver that is similar to DirectX 12 already on the Xbox One. That freed up a lot of CPU time.”
http://gamingbolt.com/dx12-to-allow-better-use-of-cpu-cores-xbox-one-already-has-similar-api-for-freeing-up-cpu#VvDZxTmojdIwxoAA.99
There are numerous crucial factors which come into play when discussing DirectX 12′s benefits on the Xbox One’s performance. We know from Microsoft there are already a few DIrectX 12 features available for the Xbox One. Phil Spencer has said DX12 for the Xbox One won’t be a massive change in performance. But there will likely be other tangible reasons for DirectX 12′s to be on the Xbox One, including easier game ports.
http://www.redgamingtech.com/dx12-70-performance-increase-pc-xbox-one/
The only thing missing is the naming,wants some quotes from MS from where DX12 wasn't still unknown.? MS stating lower CPU over head been already on xbox one and even xbox 360.?
And they would bring those gains to PC.? Before DX12 was even anounce.?
Well...can't change sh*tty hardware though...
1 and 5) So what you are telling me is that Goosen was working on Directx 12 and the xbox at the same time yet he forgot to mention this to the hardware engineers. The point of number five was to show you that when building the xbox one they took into account where technology was going in the future. "When we start looking at what's the next console going to look like, we're always on top of the roadmap, understanding where that is and how appropriate to combine with game developers and software technology and get that all together." How was directx just hitting we heard about directx12 through the grapevines when AMD first announced Mantle, there were rumors that M$ was working on a new low level API. Stop tryna downplay M$ like they are some kindergarten level developers.
My claims are just as hear say as yours but the point I'm trying to make is that there is more evidence supporting the fact that they did build it with Dx12 in mind than not. Let's not forget the xbox 360 tessellation and Directx11, the xbox 360 was built in 2005 yet it had a tessellation unit built in to support an API that came out years later. Xbox one was built inheriting an already existing Dx11 design yet M$ refer to DX11 as the top API. Now we all know PS4 has a lower API than the One does at the moment.
Same concept M$ just does it a different way /http://wccftech.com/directx-11-3-api/
Lol so you are telling me that hardware comes first and then the software. So only Nvidia built their gpu to support Directx yet M$ didn't. Yet you go a step further to say Sony has hardware support for Dx12 but M$ doesn't. So you are telling me that Sony went to M$ and got info about Dx12 coming and built their console to support it, because you said yourself that GCN doesn't have Dx12 support but now Sony somehow built it into the PS4, and Cerny just "forgot to mention it", ok so xbox one supports SPURS then by your logic. According to you everybody in the industry has support for Dx12 except M$, even their competition. Why would the head of the directx team not inform the head of the hardware team that they were working on dx.
Did you Know: Xbox got it's name from directx, they initially thought of calling it a directx box. A console box that supports directx, later shortened to XBOX.
How does DMA not have anything to do with HSA, you call me sad. Then what is the point of the Dma engines dude? If they are not a work around to HSA then what are they. I just said that the xbox does not have HSA so move engines are the work around.
Directx 12 is not on xbox but you keep tryna say it is so prove it.
read this edit from my original post.
Since you know more than any engineer to ever work on any system you should know this already. Innovation does not come from doing the same thing over and over again or being biased. They did not try to downplay gddr5 at all they said it did not fit into their vision. They wanted a low latency well balanced system where each component could operate at it's peak performance. That statement alone let's you know they weren't going to go with a unified system. To do that you need seperate memory for gpu and cpu because the gpu favors bandwidth and the cpu favors low latency. This is computer basics, you should know this Mr. Architect. Esram is less power hungry than gddr5 while still having high bandwidth, 32mb of esram is cheaper than 6gb of Gddr5. With Tiled resources and being able to fit 3gb tile pool into 16mb, they kill 2 birds with one stone, you have high bandwidth fast memory and the texture storage you would get from 6gb of gddr5, and it's cheaper. The only thing missing was HSA, add the DMA engines and you have a workaround, then add in a self sufficient audio block to keep the cpu from doing audio tasks. That's what being a developer/engineer is about approaching problems and finding new innovative solutions to reach your goals. You would suck at that job because you have a bad case of tunnel vision.
Tell me what are PS4's weaknesses? or does it have none?
NO no and NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
The xbox one is a straight PC GCN,it has 2 CU less than a 7790 and almost 200mhz slower,it basically is a 7790 with 7770 performance,there is no secret hardware and i will prove it once and for all..
Unified shaders
Feldstein cited several major areas of innovation where the Xbox 360 GPU breaks new ground. The first of those is the chip's unified shader array, which does away with separate vertex and pixel shaders in favor of 48 parallel shaders capable of operating on data for both pixels and vertices. The GPU can dynamically allocate shader resources as necessary in order to best address a computational constraint, whether that constraint is vertex- or pixel-related.
http://techreport.com/review/8342/details-of-ati-xbox-360-gpu-unveiled
When MS has a freaking advantage they scream it,even more if it will give a freaking sense of more power to their brand.
The Xenos was the first GPU with Unified shader even vs PC.
http://www.extremetech.com/computing/190581-nvidias-ace-in-the-hole-against-amd-maxwell-is-the-first-gpu-with-full-directx-12-support
How can the xbox one have hardware for DX12 when Maxwell is the FISRT GPU TO HAVE IT..
Hahhaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
See the difference the Xenos was the first unified shader GPU beating PC GPU,and it was well know before the xbox 360 was even release,on DX12 that didn't happen because the GPU has no hardware support..hahaha
Nothing you have quote until now confirms that the xbox one has full hardware support for the XBO nothing,so just keep posting dude,you have prove nothing quote MS stating that the xbox one has full hardware support for DX12..lol
You can't Waxwell is the first GPU and is not on xbox one,the xbox one hardware was ready before the xbox one been release that line of GPU was release on 2011.
[Editorial] So something did happen at GAME24 that we had not foreseen. Or leaked. Or heard about. I am talking about the DirectX 11.3 update that Microsoft has revealed alongside DirectX 12. This seemingly redundant iteration of the API will provide most of the feature set of DX12 minus the processor overhead reduction that is the hallmark of DX12 API.
From your own link....hahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
We implemented it on Xbox 360 and had a whole lot of ideas on how to make that more efficient [and with] a cleaner API, so we took that opportunity with Xbox One and with our customised command processor we've created extensions on top of D3D which fit very nicely into the D3D model and this is something that we'd like to integrate back into mainline 3D on the PC too - this small, very low-level, very efficient object-orientated submission of your draw [and state] commands.
Hahahahahaa is already on xbox one and 360...hahahaa
@slimdogmilionar:
I must commend you for your intelligent and well thought out arguments you've put forward against others on here. Pleas keep up the good work. I'm also interested to see what gaming will look like on these consoles in 2015 and beyond. I think the XB1 has been greatly misunderstood from all angles, and unfortunately that perception of weaker hardware is going to be difficult to address. However, if MS can keep pulling out titles like Forza Horizon 2, which looks absolutely stunning, whilst running in 1080px30fps(locked), and with 4xMSAA, then it may start to lessen the perception of the power deficient in the future.
The proof doesn't lay with me. It lays with you and ttboy.
You are the one talking about baseless arguments prove it..
He won't take the bet even though he is 100% sure. I'm not 100% but I am reasonably confident to do it. Sony fans lack the courage of their convictions. :)
I take the bet any game that comes in 1080p on PS4 and lower on xbox one mean your out of here no buts,using what developers say like you wanted is sh** many developers speak nothing but greatness about both sony and MS,but the games it self show the reality,if a game is inferior in any way that mean DX12 failed...
Go on take the bet i now dare you..
@tormentos
I still don't understand where you are getting that DirectX12 is already being used on Xbox One. Here are a few quotes that would state otherwise. Will it be a secret sauce PS4 killer? No. The Xbox One will be gimped by the GPU and esram. But there are improvements that will be had once the DX12 tools are being used by developers.
“I think there is a lot of confusion around what and why DX12 will improve. Most games out there can’t go 1080p because the additional load on the shading units would be too much. For all these games DX12 is not going to change anything,”
“They might be able to push more triangles to the GPU but they are not going to be able to shade them, which defeats the purpose. To answer the first question, I think we will see a change in the way graphics programmers will think about their pipelines and this will result in much better systems hopefully.”
http://www.cinemablend.com/games/Xbox-One-Unlikely-Hit-1080p-With-DX12-Says-Witcher-3-Dev-66567.html
"The ‘full’ DX12 low level will likely bring a few performance improvements – but nothing like what’s available on PC."
http://www.redgamingtech.com/dx12-70-performance-increase-pc-xbox-one/
"Just last month, Xbox head Phil Spencer downplayed the potential performance boost we can expect to see out of DirectX 12 on the Xbox One. Better APIs will make developing for the Xbox One an easier task, but without a hardware upgrade, Microsoft’s console simply won’t stand up to the PS4 graphically."
http://www.extremetech.com/gaming/187549-directx-12-is-coming-next-year-but-it-probably-wont-help-xbox-one-games-run-at-1080p
"Most games out there can't go 1080p because the additional load on the shading units would be too much. For all these games DX12 is not going to change anything."
http://www.gamespot.com/articles/xbox-one-1080p-obstacle-not-solved-by-directx-12-w/1100-6421478/
We know that DX 12 will have a fairly strong impact on PC games when it launches late next year but will it have the same technical impact on the Xbox One? Interestingly, Engel revealed that, “The Xbox One already has an API which is similar to DirectX 12. So Microsoft implemented a driver that is similar to DirectX 12 already on the Xbox One. That freed up a lot of CPU time.”
http://gamingbolt.com/dx12-to-allow-better-use-of-cpu-cores-xbox-one-already-has-similar-api-for-freeing-up-cpu#VvDZxTmojdIwxoAA.99
There are numerous crucial factors which come into play when discussing DirectX 12′s benefits on the Xbox One’s performance. We know from Microsoft there are already a few DIrectX 12 features available for the Xbox One. Phil Spencer has said DX12 for the Xbox One won’t be a massive change in performance. But there will likely be other tangible reasons for DirectX 12′s to be on the Xbox One, including easier game ports.
http://www.redgamingtech.com/dx12-70-performance-increase-pc-xbox-one/
The only thing missing is the naming,wants some quotes from MS from where DX12 wasn't still unknown.? MS stating lower CPU over head been already on xbox one and even xbox 360.?
And they would bring those gains to PC.? Before DX12 was even anounce.?
Again, The burden of proof is on you and the others are making claims. They are by nature baseless until YOU prove them.
Phil Spencer said DX12 is (UPCOMING) to the X1 and won't make a huge difference. Is this really hard for you guys to understand? We'll wait and see but if it's even 5-7% that's still a big deal. Also low level is much better than high level, if you don't know what there talking about you should look it up.
I never said anything about any secret sauce. I'm not a food critic and this isn't the McDonaldland forum. lmao!! I said E3 2015 and beyond. The XB1 hasn't even been out for a year. Just shows how stupid you really are. What happened to I_can_haz & misterxmedia? They got banned for life or something? Maybe they are using alts. lol!!
You claim it had hardware under NDA...
It sure like secret sauce to me..
How can the xbox one have hardware for DX12 when Maxwell is the FISRT GPU TO HAVE IT..
Nothing you have quote until now confirms that the xbox one has full hardware support for the XBO nothing,so just keep posting dude,you have prove nothing quote MS stating that the xbox one has full hardware support for DX12..lol
You can't Waxwell is the first GPU and is not on xbox one,the xbox one hardware was ready before the xbox one been release that line of GPU was release on 2011.
[Editorial] So something did happen at GAME24 that we had not foreseen. Or leaked. Or heard about. I am talking about the DirectX 11.3 update that Microsoft has revealed alongside DirectX 12. This seemingly redundant iteration of the API will provide most of the feature set of DX12 minus the processor overhead reduction that is the hallmark of DX12 API.
From your own link....hahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
We implemented it on Xbox 360 and had a whole lot of ideas on how to make that more efficient [and with] a cleaner API, so we took that opportunity with Xbox One and with our customised command processor we've created extensions on top of D3D which fit very nicely into the D3D model and this is something that we'd like to integrate back into mainline 3D on the PC too - this small, very low-level, very efficient object-orientated submission of your draw [and state] commands.
Hahahahahaa is already on xbox one and 360...haha
I've already said there is no concrete evidence that it does but there is no concrete evidence that it doesn't the point I'm trying to make to you is with M$ track record it is more than likely to have built in support. Like I said it is a highly customized architecture
Maxwell was the first PC gpu to have hardware support for DX12, the whole article is about Nvidia having a Directx12 card before AMD.
Like I said you have the head of Directx working with the head hardware architect. Lol so even if like you say Directx12 is already on Xbox one your quote proves that they did build support for directx into their architecture.
Ask yourself this, how long do you think Nvidia was working a Directx12 gpu? Directx12 was officially announced in March, yet 7 months later Nvidia announces a gpu that would support it, they had to know in at least 2011/2012 that it was coming. Now how long before that do you think M$ knew Dx12 was coming? Remember the xbox was not supposed to be released until now, sometime this month. They didn't start preparing for the xbox one until 2010.
Even if like you say DX12 is the API on the Xbox one now your last quote proves my point. The xbox one and 360 was built with Dx in mind. It also proves that the xbox is not straight CGN, but yet again like I keep saying M$ customized the chip.
Digital Foundry: DirectX as an API is very mature now. Developers have got a lot of experience with it. To what extent do you think this is an advantage for Xbox One? Bearing in mind how mature the API is, could you optimise the silicon around it?
Andrew Goossen: To a large extent we inherited a lot of DX11 design.So there you have it they admit they customized the silicon around Dx. So even if you are right that Dx12 is the xbox one API they say right there that they built the architecture around it. Yet in that same paragraph he goes on to say how they did more customizing to the chips once they bought it from AMD.
Why are you so scared of directx12? Is it becasue PS4 won't have it but everyone else in the development world will?
Is it because Dx12 is getting huge support from the development community?
Is it because in the next couple of years games will start to be run on UE4?
Is it because UE4 will have directx12 support built in?
Is it because when UE3 stops being the norm DX12/UE4 will be the standard, meaning once again Xbox will be lead platform, just like last gen?
It's ok tormentos PS4 is still the more powerful system. You cows can afford to think outside of the box this gen.
@tormentos I take the bet any game that comes in 1080p on PS4 and lower on xbox one mean your out of here no buts,using what developers say like you wanted is sh** many developers speak nothing but greatness about both sony and MS,but the games it self show the reality,if a game is inferior in any way that mean DX12 failed...
That really doesn't prove anything other than bad grammar. You are not sure of yourself.
I've already said there is no concrete evidence that it does but there is no concrete evidence that it doesn't the point I'm trying to make to you is with M$ track record it is more than likely to have built in support. Like I said it is a highly customized architecture
Maxwell was the first PC gpu to have hardware support for DX12, the whole article is about Nvidia having a Directx12 card before AMD.
Like I said you have the head of Directx working with the head hardware architect. Lol so even if like you say Directx12 is already on Xbox one your quote proves that they did build support for directx into their architecture.
Ask yourself this, how long do you think Nvidia was working a Directx12 gpu? Directx12 was officially announced in March, yet 7 months later Nvidia announces a gpu that would support it, they had to know in at least 2011/2012 that it was coming. Now how long before that do you think M$ knew Dx12 was coming? Remember the xbox was not supposed to be released until now, sometime this month. They didn't start preparing for the xbox one until 2010.
Even if like you say DX12 is the API on the Xbox one now your last quote proves my point. The xbox one and 360 was built with Dx in mind. It also proves that the xbox is not straight CGN, but yet again like I keep saying M$ customized the chip.
Digital Foundry: DirectX as an API is very mature now. Developers have got a lot of experience with it. To what extent do you think this is an advantage for Xbox One? Bearing in mind how mature the API is, could you optimise the silicon around it?
Andrew Goossen: To a large extent we inherited a lot of DX11 design.So there you have it they admit they customized the silicon around Dx. So even if you are right that Dx12 is the xbox one API they say right there that they built the architecture around it. Yet in that same paragraph he goes on to say how they did more customizing to the chips once they bought it from AMD.
Why are you so scared of directx12? Is it becasue PS4 won't have it but everyone else in the development world will?
Is it because Dx12 is getting huge support from the development community?
Is it because in the next couple of years games will start to be run on UE4?
Is it because UE4 will have directx12 support built in?
Is it because when UE3 stops being the norm DX12/UE4 will be the standard, meaning once again Xbox will be lead platform, just like last gen?
It's ok tormentos PS4 is still the more powerful system. You cows can afford to think outside of the box this gen.
Yes there is concrete evidence that is not on xbox one,the GPU inside it is a straight PC GCN and every one knows this.
Exactly which is the reason why the xbox one doesn't have it,because it has an AMD GCN GPU not a maxwell one.
DX head always work with the hardware department,since DX runs on the xbox one is call DX11.X and has basically all DX12 features but 2 that require hardware.
The problem here is that you think Nvidia is supporting DX12,when is the other way around MS is supporting hardware features available on the Maxwell GPU,the GPU came first,just like Tile Resources came in 2011 and is up until last year that MS support it,when OpenGL has since 2011,which you refuse to admit like a blind fanboy.
No you idiot,you don't get it because you have a PHD in stupidity.
Consoles have always have low CPU over head,and have to the metal push and have way more draw calls than PC always,DX12 is MS response to Mantle,neither the 360 hardware or the xbox one hardware was build around DX12 you idiot when the xbox 360 was out it was DX9,and the 360 wasn't compatible with DX10 let alone DX12.
DX12 is MS version of their console API done on PC so that DX can compete with Mantle,as simple as that,i hope you get it now because you just don't understand this.
I don't even know for were you get that the xbox one GPU is not a damn GCN from what i say,because i am stating it very clear so stop spinning.
Hahaha you edited that quoted from DF...
Digital Foundry: DirectX as an API is very mature now. Developers have got a lot of experience with it. To what extent do you think this is an advantage for Xbox One? Bearing in mind how mature the API is, could you optimise the silicon around it?
Andrew Goossen: To a large extent we inherited a lot of DX11 design. When we went with AMD, that was a baseline requirement. When we started off the project, AMD already had a very nice DX11 design. The API on top, yeah I think we'll see a big benefit. We've been doing a lot of work to remove a lot of the overhead in terms of the implementation and for a console we can go and make it so that when you call a D3D API it writes directly to the command buffer to update the GPU registers right there in that API function without making any other function calls. There's not layers and layers of software. We did a lot of work in that respect.
And your owned again,by your own link in what part it say it was build with DX12 in mind,.?
All i see there is DX11 been quoted left and right,oh wait they talk about removing the over head of DX11 which is what DX12 do..hahahaa
SoDX11.X = DX12 on xbox one with a few less features because of hardware.
Like i already say DX12 is nothing more than MS console tools on PC not the other way around...lol
With DirectX 12 running the same demo, all four cores carried a balanced amount of the workload, and the overall workload was reduced by half.
For a real-world demo, Gosalia trotted out Chris Tector of Turn 10 Studios to show off DirectX 12’s capabilities with Forza 5 on a PC powered by an Nvidia Titan Black GPU. “At Turn 10, we’re strictly a console developer and we’re used to going as close to the metal as we can,” said Tector.
Turn 10 tried to port Forza 5 to DirectX 11, but found massive CPU overhead created a lot of stuttering. The DirectX 12 demo we saw, on the other hand, ran at a smooth framerate primarily because many of its new features—such as bundling resources—were drawn directly from Microsoft’s Xbox One tools.
http://www.pcworld.com/article/2110085/next-gen-directx-12-graphics-tech-revealed-hitting-microsoft-platforms-in-2015.html
The final nail in your coffin...lol
When DX12 hit PC the xbox one version will just probably change name from DX11.x to DX12,just to fallow the joke...hahah
1-Scare hahahaaaaaaaaaa DX mean shit to sony.
2-Sony has more games on PS4 than MS have on xbox ,that should tell you something about the developing community they care 3 shits for DX12,they care more about who is selling more units.
3-UE4 runs on PS4 moron.
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-gdc-2013-unreal-engine-4
4-And.?
5-The PS4 support UE4..lol
Once again you have been royally owned..lol
@tormentos I take the bet any game that comes in 1080p on PS4 and lower on xbox one mean your out of here no buts,using what developers say like you wanted is sh** many developers speak nothing but greatness about both sony and MS,but the games it self show the reality,if a game is inferior in any way that mean DX12 failed...
That really doesn't prove anything other than bad grammar. You are not sure of yourself.
So you are backtracking.? hahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
If any game comes inferior on XBO vs the PS4 after DX12 you are banned,if all games come with parity after DX12 i am ban..... do we have a deal.?
@tormentos:
Well, at least we agree on porting DX12 game from PC to XboxOne.
Well, spin is a subjective matter. So, I will leave it as that. This is why I said the bet is futile.
Totally is basically MS tools on PC,so it should ease the porting,but i don't think that will help much since you can't get it easier than DX already.
hat off to your incredible paint skills
I never said anything about any secret sauce. I'm not a food critic and this isn't the McDonaldland forum. lmao!! I said E3 2015 and beyond. The XB1 hasn't even been out for a year. Just shows how stupid you really are. What happened to I_can_haz & misterxmedia? They got banned for life or something? Maybe they are using alts. lol!!
You claim it had hardware under NDA...
It sure like secret sauce to me..
he never claims anything but just this year he was "BU BU TEH SDKS!!!" every post xD
but that's ok, it must be akward to fall for microsoft bs pr over and over again.
Well, where are the 1080p 60 FPS Sony games? This is an ingenious MS strategy, to let everyone think they're beaten and strike back with NDA DirectX12 + SDKs. There's no way they're giving up a 30% power advantage to Sony.
EXACTLY...-_-
again the main difference will be on PC and not on consoles. It will only help console games that are being bottlenecked by the CPU.
Do you have a link for that assertion? Console games are bottlenecked by the CPU. We will find out in less than a year. Brad Wardell was already asked about the same thing that you mentioned. You can google his response.
I would guess the biggest bottleneck of the xboxone is the GPU not the CPU. People don't understand the existing API that consoles have. Its the reason why a console with the exact same specs of a PC will outperform the PC.
The best thing about DX12 on consoles is that more PC games will be ported to consoles and the easy of developing a game for both xboxone and PC. Xboxone will get more games out of this.
where in my OP do you see me or anyone saying XB1 will get the full effect of DX12, i'm curious. because you seem to be so exasperated over this thread, over something that was never really said.
?? What are you even talking about? I am just annoyed at people rambling about things they don't understand.
I know DX12 will be huge for xboxone. Its going to allow more games to be ported over from PC and way easier development.
Looks like good fishing.
Dx11. high level API
Dx12 low level API
its not hard to understand that xbox one has not used a low level API its just been using dx11 a bunch of jealous fanboys with nothing else to do. Torm is a cry baby bring them cross gen ports and pasting things from the beginning of the gen trying to claim ownage and no ones listening to him hes system wars MrXmedia. Whats ps4 take on now on SVGI because it ran terrible on the last demo,
Ps4 GPU can use PRT but its tiers to that and the ps4 is on tier one
Nvidia already said VTR volume tiled resources is next big thing now they lying?
the DDR3 in the xbox is not the same as you buy from the store alot denser.
the two move engines compared to the 4 in the xbox one dont have lz color compression.
the 32mb is not for storing stupid its for moving fast
there is not one ps4 game right not thats 4xmsaa 1080p locked at 30fps open world
all them things that made ps4 more powerful is null and void.
ps4 fan is not running loud because of the gpu but the cpu is getting killed thats why you never and never will see a ps4 game with alot of stuff going on on the screen at once. not to mention BW bound with 130gb real BW for the whole system while xbox one has 150+ for the gpu alone
Xboxone uses a level level Api...
Also judging by your statements you really don't understand hardware/software. It just sounds like a copy/paste ramble. I mean really man.
@SecretPolice: yea @tormentos gets his panties in a bunch whenever anybody says anything good about xbox. I'm more intrigued by xbox architecture because it's something new and harder to understand. When you look at PS4 it's clear to see what's there and you can pretty much see it's strengths and weaknesses, but when you look at xbox it's not that cut and dry.
@slimdogmilionar:
Precisely, feel about the same and intrigued to see where we're at in about two years with these new consoles. Time will tell and to act like anything is a forgone conclusion at this stage is just so short sighted.
you guys are joking, right? You're just trying to bait tormentos, right? Either that or you 2 are suffering of a very serious case of delusion.
@tormentos
Yes there is concrete evidence that is not on xbox one,the GPU inside it is a straight PC GCN and every one knows this.
Exactly which is the reason why the xbox one doesn't have it,because it has an AMD GCN GPU not a maxwell one.
How is there concrete evidence? We know M$ bought a GCN architecture from AMD but who is to say what they did to it once they had it and started customizing it, to fit their vision. You? Find me an article on the web that does not talk about how customized the xbox one architecture is compared to PS4 off the shelf parts.
DX head always work with the hardware department,since DX runs on the xbox one is call DX11.X and has basically all DX12 features but 2 that require hardware.
Why would the head of Directx work with the hardware team? So now you are retracting your statements that the Xbox one has DX12 by saying it has Dx11 but no hardware support for directx when they clearly said in the interview they adopted dx into the silicon.
The problem here is that you think Nvidia is supporting DX12,when is the other way around MS is supporting hardware features available on the Maxwell GPU,the GPU came first,just like Tile Resources came in 2011 and is up until last year that MS support it,when OpenGL has since 2011,which you refuse to admit like a blind fanboy.
This one is just funny, you mean to tell me that, Nvidia just designed a gpu on whim, on the off chance that M$ would make a new API to support it. Like I keep telling you it was leaked a few years ago when AMD released mantle that M$ was working on a new API. M$ was working on Directx12 before we even heard about Maxwell. Tiled resources is a hardware work around which is most likely why Nvidia is touting volume tiled resources as the next best thing, but we saw this 2 years ago at a M$ build conference.
DX12 is MS version of their console API done on PC so that DX can compete with Mantle,as simple as that,i hope you get it now because you just don't understand this.
I don't even know for were you get that the xbox one GPU is not a damn GCN from what i say,because i am stating it very clear so stop spinning.
Yet again we come full circle with you. If Dx12 is xbox one API then you proved my point that it has built in hardware support. Xbox gpu is GCN but so will the new gpu's that come from AMD to support DX12 they will be GCN gpu's also but they will support Dx12 at a hardware level.
Consoles have always have low CPU over head,and have to the metal push and have way more draw calls than PC always,DX12 is MS response to Mantle,neither the 360 hardware or the xbox one hardware was build around DX12 you idiot when the xbox 360 was out it was DX9,and the 360 wasn't compatible with DX10 let alone DX12.
Lol cpu is the main bottleneck on consoles neither the PS or the Xbox share the workload evenly amongst their cores, given they do have less overhead than PC there's still always room for improvement or else Sony would not be looking into optimizing in this area also. Like I said Xbox 360 was built in 2005 but had a built in tessellation unit, tessellation unit's were needed for directx 11 which came out like 4 or 5 years later.
I don't even know for were you get that the xbox one GPU is not a damn GCN from what i say,because i am stating it very clear so stop spinning.
DX12 is MS version of their console API done on PC so that DX can compete with Mantle,as simple as that,i hope you get it now because you just don't understand this.
Nope you spinning, I never said it wasn't GCN I said it was heavily modified, there is a difference. AMd will still label their new GPU's GCN, the only difference will be that they have built in Dx12 support. They don't need to compete with Mantle because even AMD will support Dx12, they have already even admitted this, Dx12 will be the new universal API.
Hahaha you edited that quoted from DF...
Digital Foundry: DirectX as an API is very mature now. Developers have got a lot of experience with it. To what extent do you think this is an advantage for Xbox One? Bearing in mind how mature the API is, could you optimise the silicon around it?
Andrew Goossen: To a large extent we inherited a lot of DX11 design. When we went with AMD, that was a baseline requirement. When we started off the project, AMD already had a very nice DX11 design. The API on top, yeah I think we'll see a big benefit. We've been doing a lot of work to remove a lot of the overhead in terms of the implementation and for a console we can go and make it so that when you call a D3D API it writes directly to the command buffer to update the GPU registers right there in that API function without making any other function calls. There's not layers and layers of software. We did a lot of work in that respect.
And your owned again,by your own link in what part it say it was build with DX12 in mind,.?
All i see there is DX11 been quoted left and right,oh wait they talk about removing the over head of DX11 which is what DX12 do..hahahaa
SoDX11.X = DX12 on xbox one with a few less features because of hardware.
Like i already say DX12 is nothing more than MS console tools on PC not the other way around...lol
First of all I did not edit the quote, I highlighted the main idea of the paragraph because you reading comprehension is not so good, I figured if I kept it simple you would get my point. They asked if the xbox hardware was built around Dx and the answer was yes, plain and simple. So like I said even if Dx12 is the Xbox one API M$ customized the architecture for it, I mean come on he clearly states in the opening sentence of his response that they optimized the hardware for Dx.
With DirectX 12 running the same demo, all four cores carried a balanced amount of the workload, and the overall workload was reduced by half.
For a real-world demo, Gosalia trotted out Chris Tector of Turn 10 Studios to show off DirectX 12’s capabilities with Forza 5 on a PC powered by an Nvidia Titan Black GPU. “At Turn 10, we’re strictly a console developer and we’re used to going as close to the metal as we can,” said Tector.
Turn 10 tried to port Forza 5 to DirectX 11, but found massive CPU overhead created a lot of stuttering. The DirectX 12 demo we saw, on the other hand, ran at a smooth framerate primarily because many of its new features—such as bundling resources—were drawn directly from Microsoft’s Xbox One tools.
http://www.pcworld.com/article/2110085/next-gen-directx-12-graphics-tech-revealed-hitting-microsoft-platforms-in-2015.html
The final nail in your coffin...lol
ummmm...no you keep helping me prove my point with post like this, like I said even if it is on the xbox one there will be hardware support because the quote you posted above Gossen clearly states that the architecture was built with Dx in mind.
When DX12 hit PC the xbox one version will just probably change name from DX11.x to DX12,just to fallow the joke...hahah
Why because you said so, or maybe because the whole system was built with DX in mind?
1-Scare hahahaaaaaaaaaa DX mean shit to sony.
But it means everything to you.
2-Sony has more games on PS4 than MS have on xbox ,that should tell you something about the developing community they care 3 shits for DX12,they care more about who is selling more units.
PS4 has more Indy games than M$ and let's not forget that UE is the goto for Indy devs, I wonder how that will work out once UE4 is released and they can build games for Xbox and PC at pretty much the same time. Going by numbers Xbox could ride PC coat tail just to get Indy Devs onboard, XBOX+PC sales>>>>>>PS4 sales.
3-UE4 runs on PS4 moron.
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-gdc-2013-unreal-engine-4
Well DUH! Who said it didn't it's just that M$ is getting a lot more support for their API than Sony is.
4-And.?
Struck a nerve I see
5-The PS4 support UE4..lol
Of course but I don't see Epic building UE4 around PS4 API. Once Dx hits everyone will be supporting it making it easier to build games for xbox because Dx is universally supported
Once again you have been royally owned..lol
IF it makes you sleep better at night tell yourself that but I'm just not seeing it, all I see is a biased person trying to downplay everything he hears that does not align with his agenda, no matter if a developer says it or someone who actually knows if it does not fit your agenda, beliefs, or opinion it's not true. If every major developer came out tomorrow and saisd we were wrong about DX you would still claim that they know nothing compared to you and that M$ paid them to say that, sort of how you try to avoid the whole cloudgine topic because there's a chance you could be wrong.
I'm starting to think I should have went to law school instead of software engineering.
@Gue1: Tormentos is full of shit. only you and other cows who are pro Sony don't or won't let urself see it. all his links and BS are old and hold no real merit. you just want him to be right so ur assuming he is...he's a sham artist and all his BS has been debunked several times over in this very thread alone. so relax claiming people are delusional...especially since ur keeping ur head in the clouds yourself.
Bottom line.
Xbox One has won graphics award for Ryse
Xbox One only 1080p/60fps locked game, Forza 5
Xbox One open world racer 1080p/30fps locked , FH2
------
PS4 no graphics award.
PS4 no non indie AAA 1080P/60fps locked game.
PS4 corridor racer with 50 cars, no weather at launch. (Easier to develop for and more powerful?)
Bottom line the consoles are much closer than a lot of you want to believe.
And there are many examples of graphics cards with less spec out performing supposed more powerful hardware.
So please pay attention and see that X1 is/has closed the gap. Xbox One released with place setter API and DX12 will improve performance. Not saying 20 or 30 percent but it will have some affect.
Bottom line.
Xbox One has won graphics award for Ryse
Xbox One only 1080p/60fps locked game, Forza 5
Xbox One open world racer 1080p/30fps locked , FH2
------
PS4 no graphics award.
PS4 no non indie AAA 1080P/60fps locked game.
PS4 corridor racer with 50 cars, no weather at launch. (Easier to develop for and more powerful?)
Bottom line the consoles are much closer than a lot of you want to believe.
And there are many examples of graphics cards with less spec out performing supposed more powerful hardware.
So please pay attention and see that X1 is/has closed the gap. Xbox One released with place setter API and DX12 will improve performance. Not saying 20 or 30 percent but it will have some affect.
Wasn't MGS on PS4 1080p@60fps?
@SecretPolice: yea @tormentos gets his panties in a bunch whenever anybody says anything good about xbox. I'm more intrigued by xbox architecture because it's something new and harder to understand. When you look at PS4 it's clear to see what's there and you can pretty much see it's strengths and weaknesses, but when you look at xbox it's not that cut and dry.
@slimdogmilionar:
Precisely, feel about the same and intrigued to see where we're at in about two years with these new consoles. Time will tell and to act like anything is a forgone conclusion at this stage is just so short sighted.
you guys are joking, right? You're just trying to bait tormentos, right? Either that or you 2 are suffering of a very serious case of delusion.
What you said makes you look dumb and you really should stop that. Just some friendly advice. ;)
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