XSEED SJW Drama reaches an all time high.

It's not as in 'shut your damn mouth/trap.'

Yes.

I don't live there, and while I may not agree with it, I don't have the right to tell them how to live anymore than they have the right to tell me how to live.

It's their problem to figure out if they ever decide they want to evolve out of a tribal society and join the rest of the modern world.

It is a valid translation, especially for the gaming/anime/internet community. A guy that goes around Internet pretending to be a girl is a trap. People are just going bonkers because they just read the word trap alongside god damned, taking it out of context.

This reminds me of the time I got suspended for saying that Killzone 2 gameplay was kinda weird for me because the controls were retarded. 3 days suspension for using slur or derogative language or something like that...

Yet they have the right to tell women how to live... Your ideology is pretty fucked up man.

According to their culture, apparently so.

If the case is indeed that the localizer was trying to be as faithful to the source material as possible, then I don't think the flak should be aimed at them, but rather the original developer. I think it's fine to criticize a line you don't agree with or find offensive, but I think the target of criticism should be properly placed.

Should the women in Pakistan not have say in their culture?

Again, I don't live in Pakistan.

Why don't you ask someone who does?

Because the question is directed towards you and your opinion, there are grass root movements in Pakistan for equality; however, your backwards ideology that cultural differences mean that there can be no injustice done to a person in another country because that stoning was just a cultural difference between us is just mind-numbing. A cultural difference in greetings, a cultural difference in food, a cultural difference in clothing are understandable positive differences; however, a "cultural difference" that leads to the subjection of a person due to race, sex, or class is still unethical no matter the country. A "cultural difference" that leads to the death of a person due to only their race, sex, orientation, or class is still unethical no matter the country. Aborting a baby for no other reason than it's a girl is unethical. Stoning a woman to death for having an opinion is unethical. Slavery is unethical.

If you're fundamentally against something where you live, why would you not oppose it elsewhere?

Take your SJW crusade elsewhere.

I already answered that I disagree with the stoning of women, but that I don't live in Pakistan and I wouldn't appreciate someone coming to my country and telling me that I need to support such practices, so you fill in the blanks.

What part of, I don't want people from outside my culture telling me how to live, so I make it a point to do the same, do you not understand?

Nah, I've been on GameSpot for eight years, I think I'll stay for a little while longer.

It seems like you didn't disagree with the stoning of women:

I read what you wrote. You think it's A-Okay because they live somewhere else.

Yes, because that's exactly what "I may not agree with it," means. /s

Dude, did you just read the first line? He clearly wrote "while I may not agree with it". His "yes", is just a response to your question that for some reason you believe that the "because it's a matter of Pakistan's cultural differences from the United States" part doesn't matter when it actually ends up giving sense to your question.

At least this demonstrates how people just read what they want to read, take things out of context, and roll all over the place, taking down anyone in the process.

It doesn't/shouldn't matter; a woman was stoned for nothing. There's a time and a place for tolerance/acceptance of different cultures; a stoning isn't one of those situations. Him having to qualify his first answer, "yes," doesn't mean shit. His answer is still, "yes" to a question that is essentially asking 'Is a women being stoned to death fine by you because it's Pakistan?'

EDIT: And I know this has gotten off-topic, but the fact that people are so against social reform, social change for the better, because of some warped sense of preservation of heritage is ridiculous.

Qualifying the answer does mean, "shit."

No matter how much you don't want it to.

You people are completely delusional and intolerant of ANYTHING outside of what you've determined is the, "way things ought to be."

How about worrying about SJ issues within the confines of your own culture?

Since you seem to have no problem running around the world seeking to right the perceived social wrongs and injustices of other cultures through the imposition of your "culturally superior" morality, then I suppose you would extend the same amount of tolerance to a group of radical muslims coming to YOUR country and telling you that you now have to live according to sharia law?

Oh, you'd have a problem with that?

Congratulations on being an: ignorant, arrogant, delusional, completely intolerant, and hypocritical SJW like most of those that label themselves as such.

Also, thanks to glez13 for actually understanding.

So because it's a religious law, they're exempt from criticism and social reform? Great. **** those innocent people who were butchered, it's totally cool.

I'm sure the person getting smashed with a rock is perceiving this act as a blessing, right? THEY FUCKING WON THE LOTTERY! And yeah, your god damn fucking right I'm intolerant of innocent people dying.

No, it's got nothing to do with it being "religious."

It's because I'm not part of that culture and I don't think you are either.

I also don't think you'd appreciate it if a similarly polar opposite culture came to your country and started trying to impose their their views on how things, "ought to be" (i.e. stonings, beheadings for resistors, etc.)

Live and let live. It's a pretty simple concept.

Trying to force your views on people outside of your own culture (and many times even within your own culture) is seldom met with a positive reception and it comes across as arrogant and jingoistic (i.e. like you believe that you're speaking from a position of cultural superiority and moral authority).

Except the people who are suffering in that culture do want change.

http://www.pakistaniwomen.org/about_pwhro.html

Ignore and let others kill innocents; it's a fairly easy life as well.

Nope, as I've already stated that's THEIR issue to resolve, not a bunch of busy body foreigners from outside their culture.

Hard as it may be to believe, there are also likely some people within that culture, who may potentially be victimized by these practices, who are still not interested in change and progressive social policies.

You also never answered my question concerning your tolerance for radical muslims coming to your country and telling you how to live.

I don't know, it kind of just seems like a very inconvenient translation error. Regardless of what kind of game it may be, I have doubts that it was put in there with hateful intent.

Would be a lot better if we knew what the word was in Japanese.

If they want to invoke reasonable change then yes, I would oblige. If they want to subject a certain set of people and invoke other inequalities then I would oppose.

And yeah, I'm sure the nation is filled with Uncle Toms.

Well, here's a hint to give you an idea about the changes they'd like to see:

"They're 'radical,' and their hobbies appear to include: stoning, maiming, treating women as lessers, beheading their opposition, or those who refuse to adopt their religion. Why not take a walk on thewild side with radical Islam?"

/studio audience laughtrack

Just to jump in and support Dasein808 Noone came into America or Europe for that matter and Told them to abolish slavery, The Americans and Europeans reached there all on their own, its inappropriate for outsiders to come into any culture and force their worldview , history has shown how this always backfires spectacularly ( bringing democracy to the middle east for example has left places like Iraq and Afghanistan in a far worse condition) I am fully confident that these societies will find their own path to a better world in the same way the west did and allowing them to get their on their own is the best course of action.

@Minishdriveby: Forcing your views and ethics on another culture usually results in the destruction of that culture. I think about my own culture. The culture of my race was pretty much wiped out of existence when the government decided that our ways were not the right way. Instead they took the children away from their parents where they were put into mission schools. Many injustices happened to those children in those schools. They were beaten for speaking their language. They were forced to worship a god they did not know. They were molested by people who were supposed to be their teachers.

Sure there were many reasons why 98% of my race was wiped out of existence in a mass genocide. Money, land, resources. But the Social Justice was the thing that was fed to the public. 'Savages! Godless Heathens! We need to save them so they can go to heaven! They need to live like us!' Forcing their culture on ours pretty much led to the end of ours. I'm not saying that our culture didn't have problems. Same with the anti women cultures. But to make a culture give up everything they knew or worshiped and how they live pretty much will destroy that culture.

While I understand democracy may not have been the best solution for many of these countries and has opened them up to unstable governments and extremists like Isis (as an example of an extremist, not an extremist who is currently in Pakistan), I don't see why organizations dedicated to social issues are being demonized in this thread because some people want countries to solve their own problems without foreign aid, especially when they may not have the resources to do so themselves and are asking for outside help. Unfortunately, countries like Pakistan are part of the UN, so they cannot exist in a void by themselves. They have agreed to uphold human equality in a coalition with the other members of the UN; if they're failing, it is the job and right of the other nations to negotiate and change their failings.

Dasein808's claim that there are women in the country who might want to stick the old way, doesn't change the fact that the majority are asking for basic freedoms. If there are women who decide, "hey, I want my man to hit me or stone me to death." Then allowing other women to have the freedom to leave an abusive relationship or not marry into one without fear of death, doesn't stop those women who want that relationship.

EDIT: And so back to the original topic of Akiba's Trip. If Acquire wants to release their game on the world market, then they should be prepared for the world's criticism, and it should be and is our right to criticize. If a group of people find the material offensive, they should voice their opinion about it; however, I think the target of criticism is I think the bigger controversy. Should it be XSeed if they were just doing a faithful translation?

I think my point and his is let these countries solve their own problems, trying to insert yourself into other peoples business will never result in anything positive as you have already pointed out, It might take centuries ( It took the west centuries upon centuries to reach its current state ) but they will get there on their own eventually . Yes its f&cked up some of the things that happen in these countries but in the long run letting them fix their own problems is the best solution that creates the best and long lasting results.

You plan of foreign intervention might seem like a really good idea but its not its truly not and history has shown this, let this countries find their own way.

Again I think the issue I brought up is a little different than the Native Americans (I'm assuming that's who you're speaking of). I'm not asking for the destruction of their culture. I'm not asking for them to give up everything they knew. I'm not asking for social reform with the ulterior motives of resource acquisition. I'm asking for them to allow basic human rights to other people within in their culture, a group within the culture that is suffering and who have spoken up to some degree about their suffering. I'm not asking for a change in language or an upheaval of families.

And we are saying let the do this on the own, in the same way that the West did this on their own. We aren't arguing that things should stay like this nor are we condoning we are saying let them reach this enlightened position on their own, Unless you are insinuating they cannot do this on their own and need a "white savior" to help them.

Again no one is saying stoning people is cool

@musalala: exactly.Could my culture have reached the same conclusion as the rest of society in time? Possibly. All we know for sure is that they were never given the chance. Same thing with this.

@Minishdriveby: As for the aspect of this game is concerned though the game itself is a product of a unique culture as well. It has been altered after opening in the 1800s and altered again after World War 2 and is undergoing the changes on their own pace as well. Women empowerment in japan has come a long way from the geisha days. Same with many aspects of their culture. And as you mentioned of the groundswell movements in Pakistan the change is happening there. Its just not happening at a pace you're comfortable with. Just like how civil rights had their own ugly scrapes it will be a tough thing to earn but it sounds like the change is coming. And in the end thats something we'll all have to accept.

I'm not saying they need a "white savior," however, if they need resources and are asking for outside aid, then I don't see why they shouldn't be helped, especially from nations who have past experience with suffrage movements. It doesn't have to be governmental aid; it can be aid from a private organization as well.

And yeah, no one is saying stoning people is cool, but rather we'll turn the other way, ignoring pleas of help, while they sort this out amongst themselves.

Yes because we all know history has shown that The west only interferes and offers help when they are asked and never ever burst in as the "white savior" ready to fix everything and help the uncouth Muslims/Africans/Asian/insert whatever group you want.

There is no quick fix here I would rather let people sought out their own problems than impose myself on anyone, and here is the thing ether way people will die, we let them sought it out themselves people will die, we interfere people will die and we create even more problems which result in even more people dying ( See Iraq/ Afghanistan/Africa) .And to make this even more problematic 99.999% Of the time the west isn't involved out of the goodness of their own heart but have some ulterior motive behind "offering assistance" Civilizing of Africa/native Americans was really about exploiting said peoples group natural resources including people as slaves, bringing democracy to Muslim countries has nothing to do with democracy.

Is it any wonder that countries are deeply suspicious of any kind of western involvement that purports to be out of pure motives when the west HAS always been motivated by nefarious reasons. And in many many places ( Israel/Palestinian conflict, the invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan) was met with a firm "f*ck off" by the people within those countries.

this is the original Japanese text

what it says is ネカマは関係ないんじゃ。。。。。

ネカマ (Nekama) definition: someone that portrays themselves online in a different gender, its a combination of the words ネット (netto) (eng def: internet) and おかま (okama) (eng def: male homosexual)

関係ない　(kankei nai) definition: have nothing to do with (Something); have no connection with (something)

so the translation is the problem, there is no "Nobody asked you, goddamned trap"

what it was supposed to say is "it has nothing to do with you...."

they need to get a better translator in XSEED since

Even on that translation which say "As a lone girl, there are a lot of places I'm afraid to go"

it really supposed to say "There are a lot of shops in Akihabara that are difficult for women to go in by themselves"

@drinkerofjuice like you said, there was no ill intent on the text, and is really something regular you will see in Japan. Just that the translation came out in a different tone

@freedom01 said:

@drinkerofjuice said:

I don't know, it kind of just seems like a very inconvenient translation error. Regardless of what kind of game it may be, I have doubts that it was put in there with hateful intent.

Would be a lot better if we knew what the word was in Japanese.

this is the original Japanese text

what it says is ネカマは関係ないんじゃ。。。。。

ネカマ (Nekama) definition: someone that portrays themselves online in a different gender, its a combination of the words ネット (netto) (eng def: internet) and おかま (okama) (eng def: male homosexual)

関係ない　(kankei nai) definition: have nothing to do with (Something); have no connection with (something)

so the translation is the problem, there is no "Nobody asked you, goddamned trap"

what it was supposed to say is "it has nothing to do with you"

they need to get a better translator in XSEED since

Even on that translation which say "As a lone girl, there are a lot of I'm afraid to go"

it really supposed to say "There are a lot of shops in Akihabara that are difficult for women to go in by themselves"

I can still see why they chose the dialogue they did, really they just simplified it. True it's a ruder way of portraying what was said but really, it's kind of the same thing.

That was funny with a ever so epic gif.

Out of all this SJW stuff lately, I just want an answer to one question. Am I allowed to not care? I mean, if I just don't give a shit. What will be the outcome? If I just stop and say "I think the creators of these games should be able to follow through with their vision of their game and let the people who buy them decide what is acceptable." then does the world just end?

Because, I just don't give a shit. There have been successful women in videogames long before this Third Wave fuckery. I'm failing to see any point or relevance to any of it. So, if I just "unplug" from this hype, what's the worst that can possibly happen? Frankly, calling videogames misogynistic carries about as much weight as saying that grocery stores are racist for carrying watermelons and Kool-Aid.

I don't get it. I'm not going to get it. Whenever I hear it explained it makes my head hurt. If you tell me I am evil for not understanding it, I will just tune you out.

How has no one posted wyrdwad (XSEED PR and translation)'s full response to this issue yet? Please have this added to the OP.

Anyways, with regards to at least one part of the issue which some people seem to be unsure about, that being whether this was an accurate translation, he explains that "in the original Japanese, the term "nekama" is used -- a word which combines "net" with "okama," the latter being a Japanese word of often negative connotation typically reserved for highly effeminate homosexual men who crossdress (especially in the entertainment and service industries)". As such, "trap" is an acceptable translation.

Are there other acceptable translations? Sure, but they don't carry the same negative connotation. Their use would lose something in the translation process. That's something a translator with any integrity will not do, political correctness be damned. It's censorship.

That leads me to the next thing: Artistic integrity and flair/technique. Should "nekama" (or "trap" were this originally an EN work) not have been used ever? No, that's censorship and violates artistic integrity. Was there any flair in its usage though? As much as the average 4chan/2ch post, sure, but that's kind of the point considering Pitter is meant to be a parody of them. Hell, the game itself is meant to be a parody of otaku culture. Now, is it a good parody with any flair/technique to it? I'm not far (Yes, I own the game), but signs point to yes.

Don't think Saint's Row raised this much undeserved stink.

Edit: Damn, I'm one slow typist. >.> Reading freedom01's post...

Having a transphobic character in your game doesn't mean you are also transphobic.

As long as the game doesn't have an anti-trans message, why does it matter?

@freedom01 said:

this is the original Japanese text

what it says is ネカマは関係ないんじゃ。。。。。

ネカマ (Nekama) definition: someone that portrays themselves online in a different gender, its a combination of the words ネット (netto) (eng def: internet) and おかま (okama) (eng def: male homosexual)

関係ない　(kankei nai) definition: have nothing to do with (Something); have no connection with (something)

so the translation is the problem, there is no "Nobody asked you, goddamned trap"

what it was supposed to say is "it has nothing to do with you...."

they need to get a better translator in XSEED since

Even on that translation which say "As a lone girl, there are a lot of places I'm afraid to go"

it really supposed to say "There are a lot of shops in Akihabara that are difficult for women to go in by themselves"

Er, what? Exactly where does the translation go wrong?

Original text: ネカマは関係ないんじゃ。。。。。
ネカマ being nekama
関係ない being nothing to do with
Now I'm no expert, but it looks like she's specifically referring to the person she's responding to as a nekama in that sentence and you're telling me she isn't?

As for the second translation, again, not an expert, but your translation seems more incorrect. >.> I mean, again, not an expert, don't know much Japanese, but the trap did start with "女の子ひとりじゃ”　which translates to lone girl, does it not?

@freedom01: Actually what you just posted shows that they actually translated in the same tone, making it actually a good translation. The only changes they did are because it's obvious that most people won't understand direct Japanese items, locations, references and the like.

@Technoweirdo there is nothing wrong with my translation, as a Japanese guy, I'm translating it the way I am reading the text (Japanese version). And as I stated on the second translation with the "A lone girl" The character is saying that there are places that are difficult for women to in by themselves, he/she never mentions anything about being scared. And yes the guy is trying to go around as a woman online, so it is correct to call it out a trap, but they could have left out the "goddamned" since it is not in the original version

of course none of these are much of a big problem though, since it is difficult to translate Japanese>English since there are times when there are words in Japanese that do not exist in English and vice versa

@glez13 the tone on the Japanese version is how should I say, more calm. While the English version sounds like its trying to make an argument.

People are up in arms over this?

Added to OP.

Chicks with dicks mix with politics.

This is actually the first occasion of me hearing the word as something derogatory. I've known a couple of transgender people. They were more concerned about the many other slurs available to be concerned about this. As a minority I kinda wanna give them congratulations. Its kind of a badge of honor to get your own slur. It means that the haters recognize your race/orientation/religion/gang affiliation etc.

Perhaps "incorrect" was the wrong word to use, but your second translation is certainly a more roundabout way of saying the exact same thing. I mean, just look at the length and tell me something doesn't look wrong. :P Actually reading it out loud, it comes off as horriby awkward English. As awkward as these otakus may be, their speech mannerisms certainly aren't. lol

To go a bit further on that translation, the use of "afraid" in the English version as opposed to "difficult" makes the difficulty more explicit. Not 100% like the original in phrasing, but I'm not sure how many people English people would've picked up on that as-is as they aren't familiar with Japanese speech mannerisms, culture, etc. It also doesn't quite capture the fact that the trap is acting girly, something that seems to be lost in your translation, sadly. It's kind of important too considering the response to him.

As for the use of "goddamned", yeah, it's not there in the original either. Leaving it "Nobody asked you, trap" though can cause a bit of confusion. If "trap" were replaced with almost any other word ("bitch", "******", "nigga" etc.), standalone, the phrase wouldn't be awkward as those words normally carry a negative connotation. "Trap" though normally doesn't. Maybe it's just me and maybe we could've done without "goddamned", but when I read it without, I ended up thinking the person was calling him a (mouse)trap and went "wat?". >.>

Tone? Yeah, different. Not gonna beat around the bush there. Intent though, going off your translation, doesn't seem to be lost. Tonal differences can be chalked up to cultural differences.

Thank you.

**** SJWs, what a bunch of retarded and pathethic super heroes wanna be, i bet that most of them are like "whats cool this days? oh i know, let's be feminist and defend this weird feminism concept that not even their major vocals understand now, but hey, we will be political correct in the eyes of the all migthy Internet by bashing other people who doesn't share our stupid points of view".

Again, **** this guys.

Actually most SJW's are by definition women they were biologically born women.

Sorry for bumping in to this debate (I do this far too often) but the issue isn't really weather it's morally correct or not. It's just that we cannot dictate what a culture believes in just as they cannot dictate our beliefs.

Are you by chance American? The problem with the US is precisely what you SEEM (I say this with caution btw) to be defending. That some cultures have moral superiority over others. That's just a completely inconsiderate and arrogant attitude. We don't know the circumstances they are in, we don't know how differently they react to certain situations. You cannot judge what you cannot understand, and culture is easily one of the most varied and complex aspects of humanity.

It is unethical by developed standards, yes. But do ethics dictate culture? Haha, no. I also believe that capital punishment is unethical, and yet it still happens in the US, that doesn't make me hate Texans or mean that I am on a higher moral ground. I don't know exactly why they think it's correct, because that is part of their cultural mindset.