XSEED SJW Drama reaches an all time high.

#51 Edited by uninspiredcup (10054 posts) -

@Silverbond said:

@uninspiredcup said:

As a transgender myself and long time fan of Xseed the term "trap" does indeed have negative connotations towards our community.

The only comment in the thread TC hasn't addressed

And I gotta assume anyone that uses the term SJW hasn't graduated from high school yet

It's how they work on these type of boards. If you're a woman or a transgender your opinions are ignored or mocked. Very immature.

#52 Posted by Demonjoe93 (9699 posts) -

@ReadingRainbow4 said:

@Dasein808 said:

@ReadingRainbow4 said:

@Dasein808 said:

I never heard the terms: SJWs, MRAs, Wizchan, etc. until a few days ago. I think that I was happier before I'd ever heard of any of these things.

I think it's funny that the so-called (non-Japanese) SJWs are jingoistic enough to try and impose their views over another culture.

I don't care for most Japanese games, but I also don't feel the need to launch a crusade to try and force them to make a game in a way that does not offend me.

I'd just rather not play them and go about my day.

Same here, I still have no clue what the fuck an MRA is.

Lol.

It's a "Men's rights advocate."

That makes no fucking sense, most SJW's are by definition Men.

This just get's more and more confusing. Pretty soon it'll be a crime to ask someone in a dress with an adam's apple if they have a penis.

I realize that may sound crude but obviously I was speaking of a situation in which you might find yourself hooking up with someone who is possibly transgendered.

In my experience, most of the SJW's I have ran into are women.

#53 Posted by Zuluking187 (2557 posts) -

@Silverbond said:

@uninspiredcup said:

As a transgender myself and long time fan of Xseed the term "trap" does indeed have negative connotations towards our community.

The only comment in the thread TC hasn't addressed

And I gotta assume anyone that uses the term SJW hasn't graduated from high school yet

It's probably because uninspiredcup is a troll and isn't worth addressing.

And I gotta assume you need some ointment for your butthurt.

#54 Posted by PannicAtack (21040 posts) -
@Silverbond said:

@uninspiredcup said:

As a transgender myself and long time fan of Xseed the term "trap" does indeed have negative connotations towards our community.

The only comment in the thread TC hasn't addressed

And I gotta assume anyone that uses the term SJW hasn't graduated from high school yet

He hasn't addressed it because uninspiredcup is an obvious troll, and has been an obvious troll for a long, long time.

#55 Edited by uninspiredcup (10054 posts) -

@Zuluking187 said:

@Silverbond said:

@uninspiredcup said:

As a transgender myself and long time fan of Xseed the term "trap" does indeed have negative connotations towards our community.

The only comment in the thread TC hasn't addressed

And I gotta assume anyone that uses the term SJW hasn't graduated from high school yet

It's probably because uninspiredcup is a troll and isn't worth addressing.

And I gotta assume you need some ointment for your butthurt.

Note how the young persons takes offense at (supposed) "trolling" when fellow males are involved. Yet, inadvertently actively cheer when strong independent woman such as Anita Sarkeesian being targeted in a direct and threatening (rape) manner.

Sadly, this is the kind of double-standard warped thinking we have come to expect from the misogynistic minds.

#56 Posted by jg4xchamp (49293 posts) -

@ReadingRainbow4 said:

as a few people have pointed out already.

"as a few people have pointed out"

I pointed it out, thank you very much.

#57 Posted by kingjazziephiz (2444 posts) -

i don't see what the big deal is. me personally, i chuckled at it for a few seconds then moved on.

#58 Edited by Vaasman (11685 posts) -

@Silverbond said:

@uninspiredcup said:

As a transgender myself and long time fan of Xseed the term "trap" does indeed have negative connotations towards our community.

The only comment in the thread TC hasn't addressed

And I gotta assume anyone that uses the term SJW hasn't graduated from high school yet

So you unironically acknowledged an obvious troll from the forum's biggest liar, and yet you're accusing others of having not graduated from high school yet. lel.

#59 Edited by chessmaster1989 (29603 posts) -

Man some people need thicker skin

#60 Edited by ReadingRainbow4 (14737 posts) -

@faizan_faizan said:

@ReadingRainbow4 said:

@faizan_faizan said:

That is perhaps the most disturbing gif I've ever seen.

And you all thought I was a sexist asshole.

But seriously guys, discuss the thread at least >.>

How am I a sexist? There is no reason that when I see a thread or a post, I need to be distracted by a languid anime lady with her saggy breasts dangling about. This has nothing to do with misogyny.

When did I call you sexist?

#62 Edited by ReadingRainbow4 (14737 posts) -

@jg4xchamp said:

@ReadingRainbow4 said:

as a few people have pointed out already.

"as a few people have pointed out"

I pointed it out, thank you very much.

No in fact you did not. You came into my thread without having any knowledge of the situation.

"Now if the game was actually depicting a hateful character that should fly, but considering what the game is, I doubt it has any grace or reason for its execution beyond the dev thinking it's not a slur, and well he's incorrect. Fact is it is a slur, it shouldn't be in your game if it doesn't actually have a genuine purpose."

We kind of corrected you, that the use of the term does fit within the context of the characters personality and the setting used.

#63 Posted by MrYaotubo (2709 posts) -

No issue whatsoever on xseed´s part,good to see they´re not backing down.

#64 Edited by Articuno76 (18947 posts) -

Well this thread has quickly turned into being about all sorts of social issues. For me, as a JP-EN bilingual (eww, I actually called myself that *shudders*) I'm more interested in the issue of faithful translation vs (self) censorship. Can you really take issue with the localisation team for being faithful to the source material? In this case I don't feel qualified to throw my two pennies in because I've not seen the source text/context and can't really judge.

Sadly there's an entire fascinating debate about (cross) culture and translation nuance here that's ended up buried under all the social issues.

On an aside I find the idea that this term (that has seemingly overnight) become offensive to be a little... well, strange. If it is offensive now why wasn't it (and hasn't it) been for the last few years it's been in use? This is literally the first time I've ever seen someone take issue with this.

Moreover my understanding of transgenderism is that it is a choice to visibly identify with the opposite of your biological sex (you can choose whether you wear a dress or not even if you can't choose whether you feel female or not). The moment someone makes a choice to associate with someone or something all criticisms are fair game and all claims of taboo/offence don't carry much weight. Seriously, I'd consider a derogotory comment on someone's height to be far more offensive than calling someone a trap, as that's totally out of their control.

I have to admit, I'm not exactly read up on transgenderism because quite frankly I don't really care what other people are into or do with their lives. As far as I'm concerned that's their business.

#65 Posted by uninspiredcup (10054 posts) -

That reminds me, Legend Of something or another has been collecting dust.

Xseed very good with pc, one of the few JRPG developers supporting it.

#66 Posted by faizan_faizan (7867 posts) -

@ReadingRainbow4 said:

@faizan_faizan said:

@ReadingRainbow4 said:

@faizan_faizan said:

That is perhaps the most disturbing gif I've ever seen.

And you all thought I was a sexist asshole.

But seriously guys, discuss the thread at least >.>

How am I a sexist? There is no reason that when I see a thread or a post, I need to be distracted by a languid anime lady with her saggy breasts dangling about. This has nothing to do with misogyny.

When did I call you sexist?

I thought you implied it. Nvm.

#67 Posted by Ballroompirate (23459 posts) -

That gif....oh god my eyes

#68 Edited by finalfantasy94 (26755 posts) -

@jg4xchamp said:

It's a slur against trans-sexual people, and a hateful term regardless of the character being a villain or not.

Now if the game was actually depicting a hateful character that should fly, but considering what the game is, I doubt it has any grace or reason for its execution beyond the dev thinking it's not a slur, and well he's incorrect. Fact is it is a slur, it shouldn't be in your game if it doesn't actually have a genuine purpose.

Did I miss the memo where you must shut your brain enough to play video games now? Because anyone with gee I don't know a High School education should be able to see in this case Mt. Pious is correct.

You do know what pitter suppose to be in the game right? Its basically a representation of a chat room and you cant stand there straight face and tell me that everony is positive,nice and gives cotton candy in a chat room. There are jerks in these things. Hell in most of the pitter that character is in is a flat out annoying jerk. Though it never buged me since I understood what the character was.

Anyone on the matter of whole I think is pretty silly for people to go in a uproar about this.

#69 Posted by Sword-Demon (6970 posts) -

From what I've seen, it looks like the character is supposed to be that way, in which case, I don't see the issue.

Making an insensitive character who uses derogatory terms is not the same as the writers using those terms themselves.

You're supposed to think, "That character is a douche for saying that" not, "That writer is a douche for making the character say that."

But what I find REALLY strange is that the word "trap" is now a derogatory term. There used to be a transgender user here at GS who playfully referred to himself as a trap. This is the first time I've heard of people taking offense to it; when did that start?

#70 Posted by LegatoSkyheart (25991 posts) -

@Sword-Demon said:

From what I've seen, it looks like the character is supposed to be that way, in which case, I don't see the issue.

Making an insensitive character who uses derogatory terms is not the same as the writers using those terms themselves.

You're supposed to think, "That character is a douche for saying that" not, "That writer is a douche for making the character say that."

But what I find REALLY strange is that the word "trap" is now a derogatory term. There used to be a transgender user here at GS who playfully referred to himself as a trap. This is the first time I've heard of people taking offense to it; when did that start?

Who freakin' knows, but some people just need to grow a spine or something.

#71 Posted by ShepardCommandr (2989 posts) -

I wasn't planning to but i am gonna buy this game now just to spite these idiots.

#72 Edited by bunchanumbers (1936 posts) -

I don't get it. I hear a racial slur about my race nearly everyday. I get been called many terrible things in my life in real life and face to face. And I've never overreacted on the scale of the SJWs these days. I honestly don't give a damn about any off that business. They're looking for an excuse to overreact and in this case it was xseed that was in the crossfire. Remember when they overreacted over Tomodachi Life? When they overreacted to a childrens game I pretty much stopped taking them seriously. Then factor in people who rode the wave of SJW to a miniature kingdom like Zoe Quinn and it makes a movement that may have had good intentions and turned it into something bad.

I'm not really one of those MRA guys but come on. They are taking a platform like games and are trying to push their agenda on something that was supposed to be simple and fun. Its almost like the Fox News agenda and applied to gaming. Oh and that gif haunts my soul. I need to find out if they make a bleach for eyeballs.

#73 Edited by Jag85 (4938 posts) -

I don't usually play games with "traps" in them. Just not my kind of thing. But the only exception is Steins Gate, because of how awesome it is.

#74 Posted by LegatoSkyheart (25991 posts) -

@Jag85 said:

I don't usually play games with "traps" in them. Just not my kind of thing. But the only exception is Steins Gate, because of how awesome it is.

Guilty Gear, Final Fight and Street Fighter are pretty awesome too.

#75 Posted by lamprey263 (24673 posts) -

at a glance I'm guessing localization issues, Asian people love androgyny and lady-boys despite their passive resistance to recognizing homosexuality

anyhow, I guess the chat narrative does sound like something you'd really see on the internet

#76 Posted by funsohng (28630 posts) -

@LegatoSkyheart said:

@Jag85 said:

I don't usually play games with "traps" in them. Just not my kind of thing. But the only exception is Steins Gate, because of how awesome it is.

Guilty Gear, Final Fight and Street Fighter are pretty awesome too.

Japanese "traps" are just women that says they are men. Not convincing and not interesting. And Poison really is just a victim of political correctness bullshit.

#77 Posted by RyviusARC (4722 posts) -

@jg4xchamp said:

@roler42 said:

@jg4xchamp: You remind me of the parent who went to a news station because Portal 2 had adoption jokes

Now if that little word is used more than once through the game, then yeah i'll agree they should stop using it, but if it only appears in that line, and that line alone? then honestly this is nothing but a silly overreaction

Let's not go the Jack Thompson route please

So let me get this straight because I choose to actually be educated and use facts when I make a post, I'm being compared to someone ignorant of what is mostly a game about jokes and satire.

A slur is a slur is a slur. It's a valid criticism against the game and the creators, you used a derogatory term, and for all intents and purposes the slur has no genuine purpose other than to be hateful mocking of a characters sequality. Again if they were actually depicting and characterizing a hateful or ignorant character, that's fine, at that point you trust your audience to put two and two together. But in this situation it would be painfully obvious that this doesn't fit that description.

The fact is it is a slur, it is a hateful term, and even using it once with no real genuine purpose for it other than to be hateful is in poor taste. I'm sorry I am able to argue with facts, logic, and reason and all I'm going to get in return is arguments based around butthurt.

They are just words and it's just a game.

The character is a jackass and it's just part of their personality.

If you don't like it then don't play the game.

People these days are such babies and will complain about all the wrong things.

#78 Edited by LegatoSkyheart (25991 posts) -

@funsohng said:

@LegatoSkyheart said:

@Jag85 said:

I don't usually play games with "traps" in them. Just not my kind of thing. But the only exception is Steins Gate, because of how awesome it is.

Guilty Gear, Final Fight and Street Fighter are pretty awesome too.

Japanese "traps" are just women that says they are men. Not convincing and not interesting. And Poison really is just a victim of political correctness bullshit.

Yeah,, but the official stance is that she (Poison) is a tranny apparently. (and it's thanks to the Political Correctness.)

#79 Edited by bunchanumbers (1936 posts) -

@LegatoSkyheart: For some reason Capcom thought it wouldn't be good if Cody and Guy beat poison in Final Fight if she was a woman. So they changed her to a tranny and it stuck. At least that was the urban legend. Kinda funny that Capcom would be that progressive. Almost like Nintendo naming Ostro as a cross dresser.

#80 Posted by freedom01 (779 posts) -

removed the gif...ugh* that was not what I was expecting to see when....I think I just threw up a little.....

#81 Edited by ReadingRainbow4 (14737 posts) -

@freedom01 said:

removed the gif...ugh* that was not what I was expecting to see when....I think I just threw up a little.....

Honestly, It was a pair of fully covered deflated balloons.

You see more stomach turning content in a post your picture thread. Hopefully now there's more discussion around the issue instead of "Lol gif so gross."

#82 Posted by musalala (2231 posts) -

I don't get these people ,SJW what exactly is their goal??? censorship? I mean even if that word is offensive or whatever how does it affect them specifically . It seems to be an entire movement whose sole purpose is to suck the joy out of everything and everyone who disagrees with them.

#83 Edited by ReadingRainbow4 (14737 posts) -

@musalala said:

I don't get these people ,SJW what exactly is their goal??? censorship? I mean even if that word is offensive or whatever how does it affect them specifically . It seems to be an entire movement whose sole purpose is to suck the joy out of everything and everyone who disagrees with them.

It's definitely beneficial for them to do so from a political point of view when you realize the end goal is an entirely PC society. Video games influence the youth now more than ever. Most people my age and younger don't even bother watching TV, they usually just download specific shows, watch streams or focus on You Tube especially with how damn potent add blocker is, you never have to deal with another commercial again if you want.

Most of these arguments don't come from a love of gaming itself, but from a need to place a political framework into place. It's in their interest to further an agenda.

#84 Posted by Animal-Mother (26991 posts) -

@musalala said:

I don't get these people ,SJW what exactly is their goal??? censorship? I mean even if that word is offensive or whatever how does it affect them specifically . It seems to be an entire movement whose sole purpose is to suck the joy out of everything and everyone who disagrees with them.

They have nobody to listen to them.
So why not invade a medium that has absolutely nothing to do with actual activism.

#85 Posted by jg4xchamp (49293 posts) -

@ReadingRainbow4 said:

@jg4xchamp said:

"as a few people have pointed out"

I pointed it out, thank you very much.

No in fact you did not. You came into my thread without having any knowledge of the situation.

"Now if the game was actually depicting a hateful character that should fly, but considering what the game is, I doubt it has any grace or reason for its execution beyond the dev thinking it's not a slur, and well he's incorrect. Fact is it is a slur, it shouldn't be in your game if it doesn't actually have a genuine purpose."

We kind of corrected you, that the use of the term does fit within the context of the characters personality and the setting used.

Fantastic except

"Plus not the argument you should be making: the argument you should be making is that the context of the situation is a jab at 4 chan, and it was poor a translation failure because in Japanese they wanted to pick on guys pretending to be girls on the internet, and in English they translated that into a slur."

My words, my own post, before anyone told me otherwise, so let's not get carried away here. Fact is the notion that "trap" is just any other word, and isn't in the same vein as the F word, or the N word, is false. It is a slur, it is absolutely in the same vein as those other words, and the reaction isn't completely unjustified. If your op was actually "once again Mt. Pious takes something out of context", I'd be fine with it, that's a valid argument. But you bitched that it's just a word, and it isn't. Pretending otherwise is being ignorant.

#86 Posted by jg4xchamp (49293 posts) -

@Animal-Mother said:

@musalala said:

I don't get these people ,SJW what exactly is their goal??? censorship? I mean even if that word is offensive or whatever how does it affect them specifically . It seems to be an entire movement whose sole purpose is to suck the joy out of everything and everyone who disagrees with them.

They have nobody to listen to them.

So why not invade a medium that has absolutely nothing to do with actual activism.

They "invaded" a medium that parades itself around as an art form, that parades itself around as something that should be taken seriously as a story telling medium. It's a medium that is behind the curve in terms of diversity in its own work field and any real grace to more nuanced topics: such as equality, race, sexual preference, etc. Is a lot of the criticism overkill and totally unjustified at times? sure, I'm not saying all of it is perfect.

But this "whoa is me" garbage anytime a game is criticized for this stuff like video games must be treated like they are beyond reproach is pathetic. It fascinates me the same people that will tell the "critics" to educate themselves on games won't then in tern educate themselves on the basis of the criticism.

#87 Edited by ReadingRainbow4 (14737 posts) -

@jg4xchamp said:

@ReadingRainbow4 said:

@jg4xchamp said:

"as a few people have pointed out"

I pointed it out, thank you very much.

No in fact you did not. You came into my thread without having any knowledge of the situation.

"Now if the game was actually depicting a hateful character that should fly, but considering what the game is, I doubt it has any grace or reason for its execution beyond the dev thinking it's not a slur, and well he's incorrect. Fact is it is a slur, it shouldn't be in your game if it doesn't actually have a genuine purpose."

We kind of corrected you, that the use of the term does fit within the context of the characters personality and the setting used.

Fantastic except

"Plus not the argument you should be making: the argument you should be making is that the context of the situation is a jab at 4 chan, and it was poor a translation failure because in Japanese they wanted to pick on guys pretending to be girls on the internet, and in English they translated that into a slur."

My words, my own post, before anyone told me otherwise, so let's not get carried away here. Fact is the notion that "trap" is just any other word, and isn't in the same vein as the F word, or the N word, is false. It is a slur, it is absolutely in the same vein as those other words, and the reaction isn't completely unjustified. If your op was actually "once again Mt. Pious takes something out of context", I'd be fine with it, that's a valid argument. But you bitched that it's just a word, and it isn't. Pretending otherwise is being ignorant.

That's just assuming the translation isn't accurate or fitting of the character being portrayed. Even in Japanese the usual slang for a transsexual person is New-Half, which in itself is also considered a derogatory term in certain circles.

Considering 4chan was inspired by 2chan, it makes sense that XSEED used a term to closely match the original Japanese meaning from an english messageboard for the translation. You see this same type of behavior on Twitter as well which I'm sure Pitter is a play on words of.

I'll be honest, I really wasn't familiar with the term Trap having such negative connotations within the LBGT community. I've always seen it used as a positive term to describe someone who can actually pull cross-dressing off, looks very feminine, etc. I just don't see the reason for such outrage here, it seems so silly.

#88 Posted by jg4xchamp (49293 posts) -

@ReadingRainbow4 said:

@jg4xchamp said:

Fantastic except

"Plus not the argument you should be making: the argument you should be making is that the context of the situation is a jab at 4 chan, and it was poor a translation failure because in Japanese they wanted to pick on guys pretending to be girls on the internet, and in English they translated that into a slur."

My words, my own post, before anyone told me otherwise, so let's not get carried away here. Fact is the notion that "trap" is just any other word, and isn't in the same vein as the F word, or the N word, is false. It is a slur, it is absolutely in the same vein as those other words, and the reaction isn't completely unjustified. If your op was actually "once again Mt. Pious takes something out of context", I'd be fine with it, that's a valid argument. But you bitched that it's just a word, and it isn't. Pretending otherwise is being ignorant.

I'll be honest, I really wasn't familiar with the term Trap having such negative connotations within the LBGT community. I've always seen it used as a positive term to describe someone who can actually pull cross-dressing off. I just don't see the reason for such outrage here, it seems so silly.

And was I not up front if the characterization fits, than it should be fine? I merely said looking at the game I doubt it has any grace, it looks like creeper shit

Apologists (not you relax, if I was going to be condescending, trust me you'd know it): "oh oh oh oh so so so so you're allowed to generali...."

imma stop you there. I don't claim to have wings on and a halo over my head, I claim to be able to put two and two together why someone is offended, and why a criticism is justified. If someone called Bayonetta 2 tacky, I'd act like a grown up and be like, yeah it is pretty tacky.

Again, fair enough, but it is a word created out of hate, and let's say it didn't have a purpose would be a tasteless thing to have in your game. It be like doing a shoot everyone in an airport mission, and only doing it for shock value (MW2). It's not a matter of being sensitive, as much as a difficult subject should be handled with some grace. Comedies and satire being a different thing is fine, it's meant to be funny by being unsettling. That shit works. If the characterization is justified, then it's fine, then you have a leg to stand on that these people don't know the context, and I do believe context should matter. If the argument is "trap is just a word" and "trap shouldn't bother everyone", that is being ignorant to the criticism, and more importantly asking something ridiculous as in "you should have thicker skin, because we can't stop hateful people".

#89 Edited by Animal-Mother (26991 posts) -

@jg4xchamp said:

@Animal-Mother said:

@musalala said:

I don't get these people ,SJW what exactly is their goal??? censorship? I mean even if that word is offensive or whatever how does it affect them specifically . It seems to be an entire movement whose sole purpose is to suck the joy out of everything and everyone who disagrees with them.

They have nobody to listen to them.

So why not invade a medium that has absolutely nothing to do with actual activism.

They "invaded" a medium that parades itself around as an art form, that parades itself around as something that should be taken seriously as a story telling medium. It's a medium that is behind the curve in terms of diversity in its own work field and any real grace to more nuanced topics: such as equality, race, sexual preference, etc. Is a lot of the criticism overkill and totally unjustified at times? sure, I'm not saying all of it is perfect.

But this "whoa is me" garbage anytime a game is criticized for this stuff like video games must be treated like they are beyond reproach is pathetic. It fascinates me the same people that will tell the "critics" to educate themselves on games won't then in tern educate themselves on the basis of the criticism.

Of course. But in all honesty go back 3-4 years, did you ever hear any criticism from these extremists?
They're not doing with with grace or respect. They came in and started demanding change and chased anyone who had a different with their internet lynch mobs.

Now dont get me wrong, gamers dont help the situation at all sometimes and dont handle it with grace or respect at all either.

#90 Posted by KittenNose (585 posts) -

@jg4xchamp said:

They "invaded" a medium that parades itself around as an art form, that parades itself around as something that should be taken seriously as a story telling medium. It's a medium that is behind the curve in terms of diversity in its own work field and any real grace to more nuanced topics: such as equality, race, sexual preference, etc. Is a lot of the criticism overkill and totally unjustified at times? sure, I'm not saying all of it is perfect.

But this "whoa is me" garbage anytime a game is criticized for this stuff like video games must be treated like they are beyond reproach is pathetic. It fascinates me the same people that will tell the "critics" to educate themselves on games won't then in tern educate themselves on the basis of the criticism.

Oh bite me. If you want to see a multi/any ethnic homosexual male save the universe in a blockbuster, you need to turn to video games. If you want to see a transgendered male who can lay the wicked low by the scores in a blockbuster, you need to turn to video games. Heck, if you want to see an overweight women of African dissent who favors gals and can still go toe to toe with monstrously huge alien warlords and win in a blockbuster, you have to turn to video games.

Video games are far and above the most inclusive medium, because it is by definition a global culture, and it is the only place that ever allows you to select the race, sexuality, and philosophy of the protagonist, and the games that give you this ability are only increasing in number. Going after this game because someone you are not supposed to like makes a hurtful comment on a virtual medium designed to ape 4chan is like campaigning against Django because of the behavior of it's slavers.

If you want to find people campaigning against a form of media because there are no portrayal of people of African densest in depictions of ancient Europe, you can't turn to summer blockbusters, you have to look at games. Games are far more scrutinized then any other medium, and so far they set the bar for inclusiveness. So yeah, bite me.

#91 Posted by Sollet (7441 posts) -

Shit like this is getting tiresome.

#92 Edited by ReadingRainbow4 (14737 posts) -

@jg4xchamp said:

@ReadingRainbow4 said:

@jg4xchamp said:

Fantastic except

"Plus not the argument you should be making: the argument you should be making is that the context of the situation is a jab at 4 chan, and it was poor a translation failure because in Japanese they wanted to pick on guys pretending to be girls on the internet, and in English they translated that into a slur."

My words, my own post, before anyone told me otherwise, so let's not get carried away here. Fact is the notion that "trap" is just any other word, and isn't in the same vein as the F word, or the N word, is false. It is a slur, it is absolutely in the same vein as those other words, and the reaction isn't completely unjustified. If your op was actually "once again Mt. Pious takes something out of context", I'd be fine with it, that's a valid argument. But you bitched that it's just a word, and it isn't. Pretending otherwise is being ignorant.

I'll be honest, I really wasn't familiar with the term Trap having such negative connotations within the LBGT community. I've always seen it used as a positive term to describe someone who can actually pull cross-dressing off. I just don't see the reason for such outrage here, it seems so silly.

Again, fair enough, but it is a word created out of hate, and let's say it didn't have a purpose would be a tasteless thing to have in your game. It be like doing a shoot everyone in an airport mission, and only doing it for shock value (MW2). It's not a matter of being sensitive, as much as a difficult subject should be handled with some grace. Comedies and satire being a different thing is fine, it's meant to be funny by being unsettling. That shit works. If the characterization is justified, then it's fine, then you have a leg to stand on that these people don't know the context, and I do believe context should matter. If the argument is "trap is just a word" and "trap shouldn't bother everyone", that is being ignorant to the criticism, and more importantly asking something ridiculous as in "you should have thicker skin, because we can't stop hateful people".

But was it really created out of hate? I first became familiar with the term when Line Trap was being spammed on message boards I frequented, and it was always used in a positive way.

Before then I knew admiral Ackbar used it to describe a turn of events, a surprise.

The base term is by definition:

Trap or Traps may refer to:

  • Trap (tactic), a device or tactic intended to catch an intruder, enemy, error, or substance

4 chan used it kind of differently however, it has much more postitive attachments to it there. I think the context of it's use is very important.

#93 Posted by jg4xchamp (49293 posts) -

@Animal-Mother said:

@jg4xchamp said:

They "invaded" a medium that parades itself around as an art form, that parades itself around as something that should be taken seriously as a story telling medium. It's a medium that is behind the curve in terms of diversity in its own work field and any real grace to more nuanced topics: such as equality, race, sexual preference, etc. Is a lot of the criticism overkill and totally unjustified at times? sure, I'm not saying all of it is perfect.

But this "whoa is me" garbage anytime a game is criticized for this stuff like video games must be treated like they are beyond reproach is pathetic. It fascinates me the same people that will tell the "critics" to educate themselves on games won't then in tern educate themselves on the basis of the criticism.

Of course. But in all honesty go back 3-4 years, did you ever hear any criticism from these extremists?

They're not doing with with grace or respect. They came in and started demanding change and chased anyone who had a different with their internet lynch mobs.

Now dont get me wrong, gamers dont help the situation at all sometimes and dont handle it with grace or respect at all either.

What does time have to do with anything?

Just because people in the past weren't aware of a valid criticism doesn't mean that shit isn't a justified criticism. It's like the people who say our ancestors weren't racist because "the concept of racism" didn't exist, like bitch they owned people, based purely on the theory that one skill color was superior.

In the same way they should come in and demand change, and the industry should be held accountable. It's the 21st century, it's time to grow up a bit, and a lot of these criticisms should be valid. If the consumer doesn't like it, they should learn to treat it like any other criticism: figure out how much they really give a shit about it, and learn to deal with it. For instance does everyone respond to framerate issues the same way? not necessarily. We can all agree 60 frames locked is better, but not all of us will agree that 30 frames is unplayable, or framerate dips here and there can compromise a truly great game. Some people screen tearing is the worst thing ever. In that same context you can act like a grown up, and be like "the potential offensive shit in this game does not bother".

The argument everyone should be making is that people need to be more educated and justified with their criticism and should learn to make this criticism with not only a leg to stand on, but more importantly be just as aware of the words they are using: for instance misogonyst, sexist, homophobe shouldn't exactly be thrown around willy nilly. It's a term that should have some power behind it, so treat it that way. But the "you can't make this criticism" or "take your beliefs out of my medium' from the same fucking people that will go up and down and swear by games for their stories, for their story telling, for their "artistic expression' is laughable and ass backwards.

#94 Posted by jg4xchamp (49293 posts) -

@ReadingRainbow4 said:

But was it really created out of hate? I first became familiar with the term when Line Trap was being spammed on message boards I frequented, and it was always used in a positive way.

Before then I knew admiral Ackbar used it to describe a turn of events, a surprise.

The base term is by definition:

Trap or Traps may refer to:

  • Trap (tactic), a device or tactic intended to catch an intruder, enemy, error, or substance

4 chan used it kind of differently however, it has much more postitive attachments to it there. I think the context of it's use is very important.

The f (not fuck) word used to be a bundle of sticks and a cig in England, Gay used to mean happy.

How often are they used in negative context or hateful context?

The origin doesn't invalidate what the word has evolved into, and today that word is a hateful slur to a group of people.

#95 Posted by Animal-Mother (26991 posts) -

@jg4xchamp said:

@Animal-Mother said:

@jg4xchamp said:

They "invaded" a medium that parades itself around as an art form, that parades itself around as something that should be taken seriously as a story telling medium. It's a medium that is behind the curve in terms of diversity in its own work field and any real grace to more nuanced topics: such as equality, race, sexual preference, etc. Is a lot of the criticism overkill and totally unjustified at times? sure, I'm not saying all of it is perfect.

But this "whoa is me" garbage anytime a game is criticized for this stuff like video games must be treated like they are beyond reproach is pathetic. It fascinates me the same people that will tell the "critics" to educate themselves on games won't then in tern educate themselves on the basis of the criticism.

Of course. But in all honesty go back 3-4 years, did you ever hear any criticism from these extremists?

They're not doing with with grace or respect. They came in and started demanding change and chased anyone who had a different with their internet lynch mobs.

Now dont get me wrong, gamers dont help the situation at all sometimes and dont handle it with grace or respect at all either.

What does time have to do with anything?

Just because people in the past weren't aware of a valid criticism doesn't mean that shit isn't a justified criticism. It's like the people who say our ancestors weren't racist because "the concept of racism" didn't exist, like bitch they owned people, based purely on the theory that one skill color was superior.

In the same way they should come in and demand change, and the industry should be held accountable. It's the 21st century, it's time to grow up a bit, and a lot of these criticisms should be valid. If the consumer doesn't like it, they should learn to treat it like any other criticism: figure out how much they really give a shit about it, and learn to deal with it. For instance does everyone respond to framerate issues the same way? not necessarily. We can all agree 60 frames locked is better, but not all of us will agree that 30 frames is unplayable, or framerate dips here and there can compromise a truly great game. Some people screen tearing is the worst thing ever. In that same context you can act like a grown up, and be like "the potential offensive shit in this game does not bother".

The argument everyone should be making is that people need to be more educated and justified with their criticism and should learn to make this criticism with not only a leg to stand on, but more importantly be just as aware of the words they are using: for instance misogonyst, sexist, homophobe shouldn't exactly be thrown around willy nilly. It's a term that should have some power behind it, so treat it that way. But the "you can't make this criticism" or "take your beliefs out of my medium' from the same fucking people that will go up and down and swear by games for their stories, for their story telling, for their "artistic expression' is laughable and ass backwards.

Time has everything to do with it.

It existed. But not in games.

#96 Posted by Jynxzor (9312 posts) -

Hey video games, welcome to the modern world media where people will put you on a cross for anything.

It's a shame that Video games haven't gotten to their "Desensatised" state where people just don't care anymore. People did the same knee-jerk panic attack when anything slightly offensive happened in a book, then in movies, now it's video games. All media has had to go through it's prosecution "Dark ages" it just seems like video games is having a extremly long one compared to the more traditional media/art forms.

#97 Edited by Minishdriveby (10223 posts) -

@jg4xchamp said:

@Dasein808 said:

@jg4xchamp said:

What tantrum did I throw? I stated a fact, argued said fact, and questioned why basic critical thinking isn't being brought into this.

"the learn to accept disagreements" works both ways, it's not like you're being tolerant of someone else's opinion on the subject either mate.

The people making the criticism don't even seem to be a part of the culture that produces these sort of games.

It's called allowing for cultural differences and respecting them enough, even if you disagree or find certain aspects of that culture offensive, to keep your mouth shut; instead of having the arrogance to try and impose your own culturally "superior" views (i.e. jingoism 101).

In other words, it's none of these idiot Western SJW "causeheads" business.

It's no different than Westerners not appreciating being told how to live and what is acceptable by minority muslim immigrants.

Okay for starters one game created by a small group of people who make these games isn't indicative of an entire culture. It would be incredibly ignorant to think there aren't adults in Japan (a majority at that) that would frown upon this type of shit. It be like judging American culture based on porno or those sick freaks who like my little pony.

More importantly genuine racism, sexism, homophobia, or in this case transphobia no matter how many excuses can come up for it is an act of intolerance. That is by any ethical standard atrocious.

Plus not the argument you should be making: the argument you should be making is that the context of the situation is a jab at 4 chan, and it was poor a translation failure because in Japanese they wanted to pick on guys pretending to be girls on the internet, and in English they translated that into a slur.

Thank you, I was wondering what the original Japanese line was stating. In this context, I do deem the translation inappropriate. The argument of different cultures cannot even be used because it's not a faithful translation.

EDIT: Although going by XSEED's statment, they were using a word that they thought was a faithful translation. It would be interesting if we had the original line of Japanese text. I think more blame could be put on the developer and less on the localizer in this scenario.

#98 Posted by WallofTruth (1826 posts) -

Wait, they're getting mad over the word "trap? As in shut your damn trap?

Wat.

#99 Posted by Minishdriveby (10223 posts) -

@Dasein808 said:

@jg4xchamp said:

Okay for starters one game created by a small group of people who make these games isn't indicative of an entire culture. It would be incredibly ignorant to think there aren't adults in Japan (a majority at that) that would frown upon this type of shit. It be like judging American culture based on porno or those sick freaks who like my little pony.

More importantly genuine racism, sexism, homophobia, or in this case transphobia no matter how many excuses can come up for it is an act of intolerance. That is by any ethical standard atrocious.

Plus not the argument you should be making: the argument you should be making is that the context of the situation is a jab at 4 chan, who normalized that word.

I never claimed that it's, "indicative of an entire culture."

My point is that the game in question is the product of a subset of a non-Western culture for a, likely, predominantly, non-Western playerbase and as such, the "hue and cry" of the Western SJWs are both ignorant and arrogant.

If Japanese SJWs have a problem with the game, then they're welcome to voice their opinions without criticism from me.

I'm also not "judging" anyone's culture. I'm acknowledging that, in my travels, different cultures have different approaches and views on the same things/issues and I believe that this is a good thing.

Sure, I may take offense to: racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia, consoles, etc., but if it's not occurring within my own culture, then it's really not my business to go around telling others how to think and live (unless we're in SW and talking about the inferiority of consoles and their deleterious effect on the gaming industry).

Even if it is occurring within my own culture, I still don't think that it's necessarily my place or obligation to tell anyone else how to live or what to believe because I would not appreciate someone else doing the same to me.

Clean your own houses, live and let live, etc...

I'm guessing women being stoned to death because they didn't want to be forced into marriage is fine by you because it's a matter of Pakistan's cultural differences from the United States?

http://www.cnn.com/2014/05/29/world/meast/pakistani-honor-killing/

#100 Posted by bunchanumbers (1936 posts) -

@musalala: It seems like their mission is just to fight. If there is a fight they will be there. It doesn't matter what the cause is. They'll flock to the cause wherever feigned anger is.