X1 will end up being the better 1080p system

This topic is locked from further discussion.

#51 Posted by me3x12 (1765 posts) -

I know you're new here, but people will take you even less seriously if you quote "mistermxmedia".

Only reason I used that link is because he compiled all the info into one so it was valid. As you can see i've provided other links backing up these FACTS and all I see is scared fanboys now running from the TRUTH because they can't handle THE TRUTH!!!

#52 Edited by Dire_Weasel (15588 posts) -
@me3x12 said:

@Dire_Weasel said:

I know you're new here, but people will take you even less seriously if you quote "mistermxmedia".

Only reason I used that link is because he compiled all the info into one so it was valid. As you can see i've provided other links backing up these FACTS and all I see is scared fanboys now running from the TRUTH because they can't handle THE TRUTH!!!

On second thought, it may not be possible to take you less seriously. Great thread! Carry on.

#53 Edited by iwasgood2u (611 posts) -

Lets all pray for TC. He is a man on a mission.

#54 Posted by millerlight89 (18330 posts) -

Titanfall cant even rub in 1080. Hell it cant keep a consistent fps at 720. A little driver update wont fix that. Wasdie owned u. He is a programmer. He knows a wee bit more than you

#55 Edited by Gue1 (8075 posts) -

liking to Mister X

lol lol lol lol

#56 Posted by I_can_haz (5677 posts) -

LOLOLOL OP is a certified moron.

#57 Posted by Boddicker (1921 posts) -

Keep drinking that Kool Aid, lemming. The secret sauce is real, as long as you believe it is.

Then next gen you can finally admit defeat.

#58 Posted by me3x12 (1765 posts) -

Titanfall cant even rub in 1080. Hell it cant keep a consistent fps at 720. A little driver update wont fix that. Wasdie owned u. He is a programmer. He knows a wee bit more than you

Once again more uniformed fanboys with no knowledge of FACTS. Titanfall currently runs at 792p not 720p and second off again the new SDK kits are going out really soon and a credible developer has already stated from what he's seen the kits are really fast and will make the Xbox One run games at 1080p comfortably. Also since Titanfall is so far along in development they have said they might patch in 1080p after the new SDK kits go out. Also they have said that they may even have it at 900p at launch for the full game and then possibly patch in later to 1080p after the SDK kits are out.

#59 Edited by Wasdie (48789 posts) -

Tiled resources are not a way to store more textures, it's a way to quickly access larger amounts directly through hardware by streaming only the necessary textures instead of the whole thing. This is a technique that is also in OpenGL 4.4, only it's not called by the same name.

How it would theoretically work with the cloud is that you would only need to load what you use into ram instead of having to stream the entire texture and all of it's smaller MIP maps. However the problem comes with streaming from the network to the DDR3 ram, the bandwidth bottleneck is too huge with the network. The memory footprint for textures would be quite a bit less but you still have the network to deal with (mega bandwidth issues) and there is no reason why you couldn't also do this with a local storage like a harddrive or a blu-ray disk. You'll stream faster and much more stable from local sources. The cloud would only give you the ability to have more unique data since you're not bound to a single source.

So you're throwing out information without being able to comprehend what you're saying. You don't store that 6 gbs of texture data within the 32mbs of ESRAM, you just used tiled resources to stream what you need instead of loading in the full range of data that is traditionally processed. It's just more efficient and helps them deal with that bottlenekc.

That's not going to make up for the fact that the Xbox One's GPU is weaker at pushing polygons, shading pixels, rendering effects, and having to deal with the bottleneck that is the ESRAM in the first place. The only thing this does is more efficiently stream textures to the GPU for rendering on the frame. This is also not unique to the Xbox One. OpenGL 4.4 has a very similar method that is as powerful or more powerful which will be included with the Playstation 4.

http://www.opengl.org/registry/specs/AMD/sparse_texture.txt

OpenGL has included this. In fact from what I'm reading, just like most DX features ever, OpenGL saw the first implementation while Microsoft took the feature from OpenGL and implemented it into DirectX.

The Xbox One will benefit more from tiled resources because of that dumb ESRAM limitation. The PS4 has no such bottleneck but every machine always benefits from having to process less data. It's a win-win for both.

The Xbox One's 1080p problem is still going to be a problem as it takes power to render all 2 million pixels of 1080p. That's power the Xbox One does not have compared to the PS4. As developers want to push more polygons, better lighting, and better shading you eventually need to make a sacrifice. They'll be making more sacrifices sooner on the Xbox One than they have to on the PS4.

Please don't say you owned me when you have no clue what you're talking about.

#60 Edited by me3x12 (1765 posts) -

@Wasdie said:

Tiled resources are not a way to store more textures, it's a way to quickly access larger amounts directly through hardware by streaming only the necessary textures instead of the whole thing. This is a technique that is also in OpenGL 4.4, only it's not called by the same name.

How it would theoretically work with the cloud is that you would only need to load what you use into ram instead of having to stream the entire texture and all of it's smaller MIP maps. However the problem comes with streaming from the network to the DDR3 ram, the bandwidth bottleneck is too huge with the network. The memory footprint for textures would be quite a bit less but you still have the network to deal with (mega bandwidth issues) and there is no reason why you couldn't also do this with a local storage like a harddrive or a blu-ray disk. You'll stream faster and much more stable from local sources. The cloud would only give you the ability to have more unique data since you're not bound to a single source.

So you're throwing out information without being able to comprehend what you're saying. You don't store that 6 gbs of texture data within the 32mbs of ESRAM, you just used tiled resources to stream what you need instead of loading in the full range of data that is traditionally processed. It's just more efficient and helps them deal with that bottlenekc.

That's not going to make up for the fact that the Xbox One's GPU is weaker at pushing polygons, shading pixels, rendering effects, and having to deal with the bottleneck that is the ESRAM in the first place. The only thing this does is more efficiently stream textures to the GPU for rendering on the frame. This is also not unique to the Xbox One. OpenGL 4.4 has a very similar method that is as powerful or more powerful which will be included with the Playstation 4.

http://www.opengl.org/registry/specs/AMD/sparse_texture.txt

OpenGL has included this. In fact from what I'm reading, just like most DX features ever, OpenGL saw the first implementation while Microsoft took the feature from OpenGL and implemented it into DirectX.

The Xbox One will benefit more from tiled resources because of that dumb ESRAM limitation. The PS4 has no such bottleneck but every machine always benefits from having to process less data. It's a win-win for both.

The Xbox One's 1080p problem is still going to be a problem as it takes power to render all 2 million pixels of 1080p. That's power the Xbox One does not have compared to the PS4. As developers want to push more polygons, better lighting, and better shading you eventually need to make a sacrifice. They'll be making more sacrifices sooner on the Xbox One than they have to on the PS4.

Please don't say you owned me when you have no clue what you're talking about.

Wasdie you have clearly been OWNED. You keep trying to twist it into saying the cloud is needed to do Tiled textures. It does not need the cloud to do it. Tiled recourses is and can be done purly on the hardware side of things stop trying to make it out that they need the cloud to do it. It's tools implemented into DX11.2 it's software tools THE CLOUD IS NOT NEEDED TO DO IT!!!

In relation to the cloud I've also posted a link and yes the ESRAM is also available to make cloud computing smoother by helping with making higher bandwidth connection run smoother when doing cloud computing. But these are two separate scenarios that the ESRAM has benefits neither has to work together to do either. You can either use the ESRAM on just the hardware side to do Tiled textures up to 6gb worth or you can also use ERSAM to help make cloud computing run smoother. So don't try and get out of this ownage by twisting things saying you need to have the cloud just to do Tiled texture YOU DO NOT!!!

And again I've already stated you can do a similar technique to Tiled Textures on PS4 using the Open GL but I've also stated it's been said it's not really efficient and thus far Sony has no plans in doing so.

#61 Posted by millerlight89 (18330 posts) -

@me3x12: wasdue just gave you a spanking

#62 Posted by me3x12 (1765 posts) -

You still my favorite mod though it's all good LOL

#63 Posted by me3x12 (1765 posts) -

@me3x12: wasdue just gave you a spanking

How I refuted everything he said and my links even proof it. Again he has tried to be crafty and twist things slightly to get out of his ownage but my links still proof he was owned.

#64 Edited by Wasdie (48789 posts) -

@me3x12 said:

Wasdie you have clearly been OWNED. You keep trying to twist it into saying the cloud is needed to do Tiled textures. It does not need the cloud to do it.

I never once said that. In fact I said the exact opposite of what you're implying I said. It would be illogical do to it over the cloud and would be much more efficient to do it from a local source because of both bandwith issues and network stability. I never thought I had to explicitly say you would load the ESRAM from the DDR3 ram because that's how the system is setup.

Please read what I have to say before making these ridiculous accusations.

You still don't understand at all what ESRAM is used for or understand what kind of a bottleneck network latency is when it comes to real time rendering. ESRAM is a higher speed buffer between the DDR3 ram where the information is stored and the GPU. It has NOTHING to do with any sort of cloud computing. You are absolutely clueless on these topics.

I'm not twisting jack, you're the one who is extremely confused.

OpenGL has a function similar to tiled resources. It's not up to Sony if developers utilize it. It is up to Sony if their version of OpenGL supports it. I haven't seen or heard anything that they wouldn't support it like you're saying. I do know it's not needed because there is no bottlenecking ESRAM.

#65 Posted by millerlight89 (18330 posts) -

@me3x12: step down. He just took you to school. Fed you a lunchable, and then put you down for a nap

#66 Edited by hoosier7 (3276 posts) -

@me3x12 said:

Wasdie you have clearly been OWNED. You keep trying to twist it into saying the cloud is needed to do Tiled textures. It does not need the cloud to do it. Tiled recourses is and can be done purly on the hardware side of things stop trying to make it out that they need the cloud to do it. It's tools implemented into DX11.2 it's software tools THE CLOUD IS NOT NEEDED TO DO IT!!!

In relation to the cloud I've also posted a link and yes the ESRAM is also available to make cloud computing smoother by helping with making higher bandwidth connection run smoother when doing cloud computing. But these are two separate scenarios that the ESRAM has benefits neither has to work together to do either. You can either use the ESRAM on just the hardware side to do Tiled textures up to 6gb worth or you can also use ERSAM to help make cloud computing run smoother. So don't try and get out of this ownage by twisting things saying you need to have the cloud just to do Tiled texture YOU DO NOT!!!

And again I've already stated you can do a similar technique to Tiled Textures on PS4 using the Open GL but I've also stated it's been said it's not really efficient and thus far Sony has no plans in doing so.

He said you get better results not using the cloud and even mentioned how it can be used on the PS4 too....

The latency benefits from ESRAM is pretty insignificant compared to the overall latency in the processes you suggest with the cloud.

Sounds to me tiled resources is just another little boost for the X1 to overcome it's bottlenecks, not something to make it the better running system over the PS4. The gaps in raw hardware are just too large.

You really haven't refuted anything btw, Wasdie's pretty much confirmed you don't have a clue what you're talking about.

#67 Posted by OwnageRobot (7928 posts) -

LMAO lemmings are so desperate. Science fiction talk cant save you.

#68 Posted by lostrib (26116 posts) -

TC got owned

#69 Edited by APiranhaAteMyVa (2810 posts) -

I wonder when misterxmedia will give up? Eventually he must accept the Xbone is weaker than PS4 and doesn't include any secret sauce.

#70 Edited by me3x12 (1765 posts) -

@Wasdie said:

@me3x12 said:

Wasdie you have clearly been OWNED. You keep trying to twist it into saying the cloud is needed to do Tiled textures. It does not need the cloud to do it.

I never once said that. In fact I said the exact opposite of what you're implying I said. It would be illogical do to it over the cloud and would be much more efficient to do it from a local source because of both bandwith issues and network stability.

Please read what I have to say before making these ridiculous accusations.

You still don't understand at all what ESRAM is used for or understand what kind of a bottleneck network latency is when it comes to real time rendering. ESRAM is a higher speed buffer between the DDR3 ram where the information is stored and the GPU. It has NOTHING to do with any sort of cloud computing. You are absolutely clueless on these topics.

I'm not twisting jack, you're the one who is extremely confused.

OpenGL has a function similar to tiled resources. It's not up to Sony if developers utilize it. It is up to Sony if their version of OpenGL supports it. I haven't seen or heard anything that they wouldn't support it like you're saying. I do know it's not needed because there is no bottlenecking ESRAM.

I have a full understanding of what ESRAM and I'm fully aware that it has a much higher bandwidth then DDR3 and I'm fully aware that it's a in between middle man per say to shoot data really fast from GPU and CPU and DDR3. You kind of made it confusing in the first sentence you said you do it on the hardware second paragraph you said you do it in the cloud so I was not sure what you wanted to make as your case? But I see what you did there. There is no bottleneck as far as doing Tiled resources the ESRAM is only going to help make it truly possible in efficient ways. Also as for doing cloud computing in the future when developers start attempting doing cloud stuff the ESRAM again will be an efficient helper to doing this. The only thing that ESRAM is currently a bottleneck for is you have to either do AA on it and that's all because you can't do 1080p and AA why using it this is what the new SDK kits going out will do to help bring Xbox One to a more 1080p standard box.

Again you can do tiled resources on Xbox One and it's a exclusive tool to DX11.2 and again yes PS4 can in theory do it but currently Sony has no plans and it's also been reported that it's not really efficient to do it in Open GL currently because DX11.2 has incorporated it far more efficiently and MS engineers themselves have said this will be used on Xbox One. It's also been stated that it's going to be in Halo 5 and Halo 5 has been said that it's going to make our moth drop because the graphics will be so good using Tiled resources.

http://www.tomshardware.com/news/DirectX-11.2-Tiled-Resources-Xbox,23322.html

#71 Posted by leandrro (467 posts) -

"you can store up to 6GB of textures on the ESRAM alone" missinformation service up and running

#72 Posted by me3x12 (1765 posts) -

@hoosier7 said:

@me3x12 said:

Wasdie you have clearly been OWNED. You keep trying to twist it into saying the cloud is needed to do Tiled textures. It does not need the cloud to do it. Tiled recourses is and can be done purly on the hardware side of things stop trying to make it out that they need the cloud to do it. It's tools implemented into DX11.2 it's software tools THE CLOUD IS NOT NEEDED TO DO IT!!!

In relation to the cloud I've also posted a link and yes the ESRAM is also available to make cloud computing smoother by helping with making higher bandwidth connection run smoother when doing cloud computing. But these are two separate scenarios that the ESRAM has benefits neither has to work together to do either. You can either use the ESRAM on just the hardware side to do Tiled textures up to 6gb worth or you can also use ERSAM to help make cloud computing run smoother. So don't try and get out of this ownage by twisting things saying you need to have the cloud just to do Tiled texture YOU DO NOT!!!

And again I've already stated you can do a similar technique to Tiled Textures on PS4 using the Open GL but I've also stated it's been said it's not really efficient and thus far Sony has no plans in doing so.

He said you get better results not using the cloud and even mentioned how it can be used on the PS4 too....

The latency benefits from ESRAM is pretty insignificant compared to the overall latency in the processes you suggest with the cloud.

Sounds to me tiled resources is just another little boost for the X1 to overcome it's bottlenecks, not something to make it the better running system over the PS4. The gaps in raw hardware are just too large.

You really haven't refuted anything btw, Wasdie's pretty much confirmed you don't have a clue what you're talking about.

First off DDR3 and the ESRAM are of much lower latency then DDR5 this is why MS went with it for future Cloud stuff. Also Tiled resources is not going to be some little boost. It's going to be a MAJOR BOOST!!! 6gb of textures to be used in games is freaking HUGE do you realize how good the graphics will look with textures that detailed?

#73 Edited by 04dcarraher (18407 posts) -

It is physically impossible for the Xbox one to match the PS4. the X1 gpu has half ROPS, has to fight with the DDR3 and has to use the ESRAM to levitate the slow memory bus bandwidth between DDR3 and APU. And if they dont use the esram the x1 falls flat on its face. even with esram's potential still is more then 30% slower then PS4 gpu. The cloud thing is just a pipe dream and wont be practical. Now the only way that X1 can pull off 1080 is if the game's isnt too demanding with shader workloads.

#74 Posted by regnaston (153 posts) -

@me3x12: I don't think the XB1 will produce "better" graphics than the PS4. But, if it can muster 1080p/60fps, that would be good.

I consider the XB1 to be the better device, while the PS4 is a better "gaming only" machine.

As they stand now, I would agree with you on the better overall vs the better gaming. (and I own an XB1).

If the rumours about drivers and enhancements are true, it will be neat to see how close they narrow the gap in performance. Personally I dont know exactly how the hardware works so I will have to trust people who know more technically.

In regards to 1080p vs 720p upscalled to 1080p, I really cant see much of a difference if I see any at all. Same can be said on my perception of 30fps vs 60fps...but this could be just me

#75 Edited by MrXboxOne (676 posts) -

@me3x12: I don't think the XB1 will produce "better" graphics than the PS4. But, if it can muster 1080p/60fps, that would be good.

I consider the XB1 to be the better device, while the PS4 is a better "gaming only" machine.

The GPU for each console not capable of out doing one another visually. Both will have identical graphics. The only differences is in the performance. 1080p and 60fps has not barrage on graphics.

#76 Edited by Roler42 (159 posts) -

I'll give TC the benefit of the doubt and assume he's new to gaming, therefore it explains why he believes the fairy tale that the xbone will magically do 1080p 60fps

#77 Edited by me3x12 (1765 posts) -

It is physically impossible for the Xbox one to match the PS4. the X1 gpu has half ROPS, has to fight with the DDR3 and has to use the ESRAM to levitate the slow memory bus bandwidth between DDR3 and APU. And if they dont use the esram the x1 falls flat on its face. even with esram's potential still is more then 30% slower then PS4 gpu. The cloud thing is just a pipe dream and wont be practical. Now the only way that X1 can pull off 1080 is if the game's isnt too demanding with shader workloads.

And your missing the whole point of this thread. This is not about raw hardware power. This is about software tools and techniques that are currently exclusive to Xbox one and Windows that can do things to give games better graphics and with games with up to 6gb of added detailed textures no amount of resolution or raw power can match that on PS4 because these tiled textures will give games the most impressive detailed graphics textures we have ever seen.

#78 Posted by 04dcarraher (18407 posts) -

@StormyJoe said:

@me3x12: I don't think the XB1 will produce "better" graphics than the PS4. But, if it can muster 1080p/60fps, that would be good.

I consider the XB1 to be the better device, while the PS4 is a better "gaming only" machine.

The GPU for each console not capable of out doing one another visually. Both will have identical graphics. The only differences is in the performance. 1080p and 60fps has not barrage on graphics.

False The PS4 gpu is able to handle more complex real time effects and more complex model rendering then the X1, its more then just resolution and performance.

#79 Posted by Roler42 (159 posts) -

@me3x12 said:

@04dcarraher said:

It is physically impossible for the Xbox one to match the PS4. the X1 gpu has half ROPS, has to fight with the DDR3 and has to use the ESRAM to levitate the slow memory bus bandwidth between DDR3 and APU. And if they dont use the esram the x1 falls flat on its face. even with esram's potential still is more then 30% slower then PS4 gpu. The cloud thing is just a pipe dream and wont be practical. Now the only way that X1 can pull off 1080 is if the game's isnt too demanding with shader workloads.

And your missing the whole point of this thread. This is not about raw hardware power. This is about software tools and techniques that are currently exclusive to Xbox one and Windows that can do things to give games better graphics and with games with up to 6gb of added detailed textures no amount of resolution or raw power can match that on PS4 because these tiled textures will give games the most impressive detailed graphics textures we have ever seen.

Oh so you have seen it in practise already? Can you show us? or this is just you parroting your sources

#80 Posted by Wasdie (48789 posts) -

@me3x12 said:

I have a full understanding of what ESRAM and I'm fully aware that it has a much higher bandwidth then DDR3 and I'm fully aware that it's a in between middle man per say to shoot data really fast from GPU and CPU and DDR3. You kind of made it confusing in the first sentence you said you do it on the hardware second paragraph you said you do it in the cloud so I was not sure what you wanted to make as your case? But I see what you did there. There is no bottleneck as far as doing Tiled resources the ESRAM is only going to help make it truly possible in efficient ways. Also as for doing cloud computing in the future when developers start attempting doing cloud stuff the ESRAM again will be an efficient helper to doing this. The only thing that ESRAM is currently a bottleneck for is you have to either do AA on it and that's all because you can't do 1080p and AA why using it this is what the new SDK kits going out will do to help bring Xbox One to a more 1080p standard box.

Again you can do tiled resources on Xbox One and it's a exclusive tool to DX11.2 and again yes PS4 can in theory do it but currently Sony has no plans and it's also been reported that it's not really efficient to do it in Open GL currently because DX11.2 has incorporated it far more efficiently and MS engineers themselves have said this will be used on Xbox One. It's also been stated that it's going to be in Halo 5 and Halo 5 has been said that it's going to make our moth drop because the graphics will be so good using Tiled resources.

http://www.tomshardware.com/news/DirectX-11.2-Tiled-Resources-Xbox,23322.html

The tech behind tiled resources is not exclusive to DX 11.2. OpenGL 4.4 includes it, it's just not called the same thing. Sony does not control OpenGL, they merely use it for their graphic API. Their version of OpenGL is going to be custom so it's really up to them if they want to implement that functionality. I don't see a need but that doesn't mean they haven't already. I don't know the specifics of the PS4's version of OpenGL so there is no way to tell if they support the latest features or not. It would be a safe assumption that they do, but it's still just an assumption.

When they mean it's exclusive to DX11.2 that means Microsoft won't be porting it to DX11 and allowing it to run on Windows 7. It just forces game devs to require Windows 8 to use the new features, a pretty typical strategy of Microsoft to get us to buy their latest OS.

You're still vastly over estimating the power of cloud computing. It's not going to aid in any real time rendering any time soon. Network connections are still too slow and unstable for that. It's all theoretical. Nvidia has done some work with cloud based real time rendering and there is some potential uses in the future, but given the fact that North America has pretty shitty internet on average, I wouldn't bank on it.

Tiles resources are how they are going to have to overcome that ESRAM limitation. I've never once doubted the capabilities of the Xbox One to do 1080p. I know that the ESRAM is a limitation but once they can find a way through that limitation the Xbox One is still a capeable machine. It's not as powerful as the PS4 and no amount of API or dev kit upgrades will close that gap.

It's incorrect to say the Xbox One will do 1080p better, especially when the GPU is just weaker. It's not like Sony doesn't upgrade their own API and dev kits to give developers more tools to more efficiently use the hardware. Any gains that Microsoft can make Sony will also be making keeping that gap wide.

This generation is unique. There is no secret tech, no unique architectures that are better at rendering certain things. Both the Xbox One and PS4 are practically the same device, both based off of standard x86 PC architecture but with a unified memory pool. The biggest difference is the Xbox One's DDR3 + ESRAM combo and the fact the PS4's GPU has a good 50% more hardware on it. I believe that the Xbox One's GPU may be clocked a bit faster though. However a 50mhz difference is nothing when you have way less cores to work with.

#81 Edited by AmazonTreeBoa (15939 posts) -

@me3x12 said:

@StormyJoe said:

@me3x12: I don't think the XB1 will produce "better" graphics than the PS4. But, if it can muster 1080p/60fps, that would be good.

I consider the XB1 to be the better device, while the PS4 is a better "gaming only" machine.

Actually the Xbox One will have the better graphics in the long run games like halo 5 and any games by Black Tusk aka new Gears game will be using full DX 11.2 and Tiled textures these games will have up to 6gb of textures and DX11.2 bells and whistles. It's already been stated by industry insiders that halo 5 is going to be so jaw dropping gorgeous people are going to be blown away.

Like I said new SDK kits are going out as we speak and it's going to make 1080p easy on X1 now this is why for first wave games we have not seen it becuase drivers where screwed that's all going to change now and then when MS unlocks DX11.2 and tiled resources coming soon things are going to get REAL on the Xbox One. Gonna be some scared Cows up in these parts really soon.

It's looking totally likely that MS knew all along what they were doing with a weaker GPU and with the ESRAM they knew once they released the proper dev kits and DX11.2 and Tiled Resources that things would be super wicked on Xbox One. The only problem was they did not have these dev tools ready at launch but they are coming really soon.

I truly feel sorry for people like you.

#82 Edited by hoosier7 (3276 posts) -

@me3x12 said:

@hoosier7 said:

He said you get better results not using the cloud and even mentioned how it can be used on the PS4 too....

The latency benefits from ESRAM is pretty insignificant compared to the overall latency in the processes you suggest with the cloud.

Sounds to me tiled resources is just another little boost for the X1 to overcome it's bottlenecks, not something to make it the better running system over the PS4. The gaps in raw hardware are just too large.

You really haven't refuted anything btw, Wasdie's pretty much confirmed you don't have a clue what you're talking about.

First off DDR3 and the ESRAM are of much lower latency then DDR5 this is why MS went with it for future Cloud stuff. Also Tiled resources is not going to be some little boost. It's going to be a MAJOR BOOST!!! 6gb of textures to be used in games is freaking HUGE do you realize how good the graphics will look with textures that detailed?

The latency is really so small it's insignificant in cloud computing, we're talking nanoseconds. If that was significant you wouldn't be doing tasks over the internet with even an ideal ping around 40ms (milliseconds being one million times greater than nanoseconds). Completely irrelevant given the tasks used in cloud computing would be tasks that aren't reliant on latency in the first place.

The only real benefit is with the CPUs which can be latency sensitive. Even then both consoles have good enough cache's to compensate.

They didn't go for that combo for "future cloud stuff", imo it was because MS didn't think they could get more than 4GB GDDR5 down (or maybe even less) and at a good price. DDR3 was chosen because they know they can shrink the die size pretty easily to give cheaper production costs and for a lower start price. The ESRAM was just to patch up the lacking bandwidth. Really not for it's latency benefits.

#83 Edited by me3x12 (1765 posts) -

@04dcarraher said:

@mrxboxone said:

@StormyJoe said:

@me3x12: I don't think the XB1 will produce "better" graphics than the PS4. But, if it can muster 1080p/60fps, that would be good.

I consider the XB1 to be the better device, while the PS4 is a better "gaming only" machine.

The GPU for each console not capable of out doing one another visually. Both will have identical graphics. The only differences is in the performance. 1080p and 60fps has not barrage on graphics.

False The PS4 gpu is able to handle more complex real time effects and more complex model rendering then the X1, its more then just resolution and performance.

The Xbox One can actually push more total polys then the PS4 GPU

#84 Posted by Wasdie (48789 posts) -

@me3x12 said:

@04dcarraher said:

@mrxboxone said:

@StormyJoe said:

@me3x12: I don't think the XB1 will produce "better" graphics than the PS4. But, if it can muster 1080p/60fps, that would be good.

I consider the XB1 to be the better device, while the PS4 is a better "gaming only" machine.

The GPU for each console not capable of out doing one another visually. Both will have identical graphics. The only differences is in the performance. 1080p and 60fps has not barrage on graphics.

False The PS4 gpu is able to handle more complex real time effects and more complex model rendering then the X1, its more then just resolution and performance.

The Xbox One can actually push more total polys the the PS4 GPU

I think we're all going to need a source on that.

#85 Posted by 04dcarraher (18407 posts) -

@me3x12 said:

@04dcarraher said:

It is physically impossible for the Xbox one to match the PS4. the X1 gpu has half ROPS, has to fight with the DDR3 and has to use the ESRAM to levitate the slow memory bus bandwidth between DDR3 and APU. And if they dont use the esram the x1 falls flat on its face. even with esram's potential still is more then 30% slower then PS4 gpu. The cloud thing is just a pipe dream and wont be practical. Now the only way that X1 can pull off 1080 is if the game's isnt too demanding with shader workloads.

And your missing the whole point of this thread. This is not about raw hardware power. This is about software tools and techniques that are currently exclusive to Xbox one and Windows that can do things to give games better graphics and with games with up to 6gb of added detailed textures no amount of resolution or raw power can match that on PS4 because these tiled textures will give games the most impressive detailed graphics textures we have ever seen.

It does not work like that, You cant fit 6gb of texture data into 2-3gb on DDR3 or have all that data through the ESRAM and any given time. the point of tiled resources or even PRT is to stream the data as its needed and dump whats not going to be used later. You will still only able have at anytime the maximum about being used for the frame buffer, which is only 2-3gb. Both the PS4 and X1 have the same ability to do similar streaming. Also with that streaming the PS4 does have the advantage from access of the GDDR5 directly.

#86 Posted by The_Last_Ride (65902 posts) -

@me3x12: If it can do that, then that would be great. But it's still 100 bucks more, and it's a weaker console in the end. It uses more of it's RAM for its 3 OS that it has.

#87 Edited by Dire_Weasel (15588 posts) -

@Wasdie said:

The tech behind tiled resources is not exclusive to DX 11.2. OpenGL 4.4 includes it, it's just not called the same thing. Sony does not control OpenGL, they merely use it for their graphic API. Their version of OpenGL is going to be custom so it's really up to them if they want to implement that functionality. I don't see a need but that doesn't mean they haven't already. I don't know the specifics of the PS4's version of OpenGL so there is no way to tell if they support the latest features or not. It would be a safe assumption that they do, but it's still just an assumption.

When they mean it's exclusive to DX11.2 that means Microsoft won't be porting it to DX11 and allowing it to run on Windows 7. It just forces game devs to require Windows 8 to use the new features, a pretty typical strategy of Microsoft to get us to buy their latest OS.

You're still vastly over estimating the power of cloud computing. It's not going to aid in any real time rendering any time soon. Network connections are still too slow and unstable for that. It's all theoretical. Nvidia has done some work with cloud based real time rendering and there is some potential uses in the future, but given the fact that North America has pretty shitty internet on average, I wouldn't bank on it.

Tiles resources are how they are going to have to overcome that ESRAM limitation. I've never once doubted the capabilities of the Xbox One to do 1080p. I know that the ESRAM is a limitation but once they can find a way through that limitation the Xbox One is still a capeable machine. It's not as powerful as the PS4 and no amount of API or dev kit upgrades will close that gap.

It's incorrect to say the Xbox One will do 1080p better, especially when the GPU is just weaker. It's not like Sony doesn't upgrade their own API and dev kits to give developers more tools to more efficiently use the hardware. Any gains that Microsoft can make Sony will also be making keeping that gap wide.

This generation is unique. There is no secret tech, no unique architectures that are better at rendering certain things. Both the Xbox One and PS4 are practically the same device, both based off of standard x86 PC architecture but with a unified memory pool. The biggest difference is the Xbox One's DDR3 + ESRAM combo and the fact the PS4's GPU has a good 50% more hardware on it. I believe that the Xbox One's GPU may be clocked a bit faster though. However a 50mhz difference is nothing when you have way less cores to work with.

You just used a wrecking ball to crush a fly. I hate to say it, but I think his troll worked; he's not going to respond to calm explanation, and reason.

#88 Edited by me3x12 (1765 posts) -

@Wasdie said:

@me3x12 said:

I have a full understanding of what ESRAM and I'm fully aware that it has a much higher bandwidth then DDR3 and I'm fully aware that it's a in between middle man per say to shoot data really fast from GPU and CPU and DDR3. You kind of made it confusing in the first sentence you said you do it on the hardware second paragraph you said you do it in the cloud so I was not sure what you wanted to make as your case? But I see what you did there. There is no bottleneck as far as doing Tiled resources the ESRAM is only going to help make it truly possible in efficient ways. Also as for doing cloud computing in the future when developers start attempting doing cloud stuff the ESRAM again will be an efficient helper to doing this. The only thing that ESRAM is currently a bottleneck for is you have to either do AA on it and that's all because you can't do 1080p and AA why using it this is what the new SDK kits going out will do to help bring Xbox One to a more 1080p standard box.

Again you can do tiled resources on Xbox One and it's a exclusive tool to DX11.2 and again yes PS4 can in theory do it but currently Sony has no plans and it's also been reported that it's not really efficient to do it in Open GL currently because DX11.2 has incorporated it far more efficiently and MS engineers themselves have said this will be used on Xbox One. It's also been stated that it's going to be in Halo 5 and Halo 5 has been said that it's going to make our moth drop because the graphics will be so good using Tiled resources.

http://www.tomshardware.com/news/DirectX-11.2-Tiled-Resources-Xbox,23322.html

The tech behind tiled resources is not exclusive to DX 11.2. OpenGL 4.4 includes it, it's just not called the same thing. Sony does not control OpenGL, they merely use it for their graphic API. Their version of OpenGL is going to be custom so it's really up to them if they want to implement that functionality. I don't see a need but that doesn't mean they haven't already. I don't know the specifics of the PS4's version of OpenGL so there is no way to tell if they support the latest features or not. It would be a safe assumption that they do, but it's still just an assumption.

When they mean it's exclusive to DX11.2 that means Microsoft won't be porting it to DX11 and allowing it to run on Windows 7. It just forces game devs to require Windows 8 to use the new features, a pretty typical strategy of Microsoft to get us to buy their latest OS.

You're still vastly over estimating the power of cloud computing. It's not going to aid in any real time rendering any time soon. Network connections are still too slow and unstable for that. It's all theoretical. Nvidia has done some work with cloud based real time rendering and there is some potential uses in the future, but given the fact that North America has pretty shitty internet on average, I wouldn't bank on it.

Tiles resources are how they are going to have to overcome that ESRAM limitation. I've never once doubted the capabilities of the Xbox One to do 1080p. I know that the ESRAM is a limitation but once they can find a way through that limitation the Xbox One is still a capeable machine. It's not as powerful as the PS4 and no amount of API or dev kit upgrades will close that gap.

It's incorrect to say the Xbox One will do 1080p better, especially when the GPU is just weaker. It's not like Sony doesn't upgrade their own API and dev kits to give developers more tools to more efficiently use the hardware. Any gains that Microsoft can make Sony will also be making keeping that gap wide.

This generation is unique. There is no secret tech, no unique architectures that are better at rendering certain things. Both the Xbox One and PS4 are practically the same device, both based off of standard x86 PC architecture but with a unified memory pool. The biggest difference is the Xbox One's DDR3 + ESRAM combo and the fact the PS4's GPU has a good 50% more hardware on it. I believe that the Xbox One's GPU may be clocked a bit faster though. However a 50mhz difference is nothing when you have way less cores to work with.

You keep harping on the cloud I've never made this thread about the cloud the only thing I mentioned about the cloud is in the future we will see benefits of the ESRAM because it allows for higher bandwidth connections to run the cloud much more smoothly. Again though I did not make it a focal point but you seem to keep making the cloud your end of your argument? This thread is about mainly Tiled Resources. Also related to DX11.2 anything that's a tool of that is clearly a exclusive to MS anything that is in the DX tool set is owned by MS period. Now again you may see similar techniques offered by other apps like Open GL but again in Tile resources current form it's a MS owned app exclusive to DX. And again so we are understanding each other yes Open GL can do a form of this technique but also it's currently not in the plans of Sony thus far because it's also been said to not be very efficient for the PS4 and it's current Open GL format whereas MS has sunk more resources into Tiled resources techniques that is exclusive to DX Xbox One and Windows for their tools in doing this technique.

When halo 5 launched and has full DX.2 and Tiled textures their is going to be a lot of butthurt around SW because Xbox One is going to be graphics king by miles.

#89 Edited by 04dcarraher (18407 posts) -
@Wasdie said:

@me3x12 said:

@04dcarraher said:

@mrxboxone said:

@StormyJoe said:

@me3x12: I don't think the XB1 will produce "better" graphics than the PS4. But, if it can muster 1080p/60fps, that would be good.

I consider the XB1 to be the better device, while the PS4 is a better "gaming only" machine.

The GPU for each console not capable of out doing one another visually. Both will have identical graphics. The only differences is in the performance. 1080p and 60fps has not barrage on graphics.

False The PS4 gpu is able to handle more complex real time effects and more complex model rendering then the X1, its more then just resolution and performance.

The Xbox One can actually push more total polys the the PS4 GPU

I think we're all going to need a source on that.

His Source? out of thin air.com/Xbox1ownsall

XBOX ONE - GPUPS4 - GPU
853MHz800MHz
12 CUs (768 ALUs)18 CUs (1152 ALUs)
16 ROPS32 ROPS
48 TMUs72 TMUs
1.31 TFLOPS1.84 TFLOPS
13.6 GPix/s25.6 GPix/s
40.9 GTex/s57.6 GTex/s

68GB/s DDR3

(8GB shared with CPU)

(3GB reserved for OS)

176GB/s GDDR5

(8GB shared with CPU)

(3.5GB reserved for OS)

From the specs alone show the PS4 gpu overall is nearly 40% faster.

#90 Edited by MK-Professor (3467 posts) -

All NGC cores (HD7xxx series, PS4 gpu, and XboxOne gpu) support tiled resources.

Also tiled resources benefited greatly PC's(with gpu that have small Vram), and not the consoles because they only have one memory pool.

#91 Posted by Shewgenja (6821 posts) -

I wonder when misterxmedia will give up? Eventually he must accept the Xbone is weaker than PS4 and doesn't include any secret sauce.

I still think he must be the worlds biggest PS4 fan in disguise. No one causes more grief for Xbox fans than him.

#92 Posted by stereointegrity (10525 posts) -

@Wasdie said:

@me3x12 said:

@Wasdie said:

Umm no. You can't store 6 gigs of anything on 32 mbs. That's physically impossible. You're clearly interpreting the tech wrong.

Also the Xbox One's GPU has 50% less transistors than the PS4's GPU despite having practically the same architecture. The PS4 is more powerful and no changes to the API can possibly make up that performance gap.

Please just stop kidding yourself.

Are we a PS fanboy much lol you are so wrong you can store up to 6gb of textures on the ESRAM using Tiled Resources have you even researched this at all? Not to mention with the new SDK kits going out it's being said to help in big ways showing devs how to use the ESRAM way more efficiant and faster and 1080p should be easy now. Also the ESRAM is going to be a major factor for cloud gaming it allows for higher bandwidth connections to work much more esily for cloud gaming. Do some research Wasdie

Do you even understand the words you type? In absolutely no way does ESRAM have anything to do with cloud computing. You don't have any clue what tiled resources are either.

Bro he is getting all this info from misterxmedia... He even said it has 47mb of esram just like misterxmedia claims... Stop arguing with him and just ban him

#93 Posted by me3x12 (1765 posts) -

@Wasdie said:

@me3x12 said:

@04dcarraher said:

@mrxboxone said:

@StormyJoe said:

@me3x12: I don't think the XB1 will produce "better" graphics than the PS4. But, if it can muster 1080p/60fps, that would be good.

I consider the XB1 to be the better device, while the PS4 is a better "gaming only" machine.

The GPU for each console not capable of out doing one another visually. Both will have identical graphics. The only differences is in the performance. 1080p and 60fps has not barrage on graphics.

False The PS4 gpu is able to handle more complex real time effects and more complex model rendering then the X1, its more then just resolution and performance.

The Xbox One can actually push more total polys the the PS4 GPU

I think we're all going to need a source on that.

The Xbox One GPU can do 1.7 billions polys a sec and the PS4 can do 1.6 billion. I'll post a link when I get a chance but you can find the info also.

#94 Edited by GameMediator (69 posts) -

---> Every PS4 owner refusing to accept the truth. Childish, immature, soon to be hypocrites.

#95 Posted by hoosier7 (3276 posts) -

---> Every PS4 owner refusing to accept the truth. Childish, immature, soon to be hypocrites.

Lol what? This is lems at the moment! The evidence is obviously stacked in favour of the PS4, how are PS4 owners doing anything but accepting the truth?

#97 Edited by me3x12 (1765 posts) -

Lets be CLEAR about things Resolution does not mean that a game can have the best graphics. If you take a game with say only 720p graphics but it has great textures and artwork this game will look better then a game at 1080p. Now that being said if you take the same game and run one at 1080p and the other at 720p then sure the 1080p version can look slightly better if your about 10+ feet away from the screen but still you really have to look.

Here's the deal if you take a game with full Tiled resources with up to 6gb's of detailed textures no matter if it's in 720p it's still going to be a full blown graphics king caliber type game because those textures will be so detailed the game is going to look phenomenal. This is what we are going to see with Halo 5. Halo 5 has been said to be taking full advantage of DX11.2 and Tilled resources so even if it's running at a resolution of 720p it won't matter the texture detail will be so good that it will be graphics king basically. So just because one system runs games at 1080p vs 720p or 900p it won't matter especially when Tiled Resources are being used.

#98 Posted by tyloss (829 posts) -

Can we ban this guy?

#99 Edited by tyloss (829 posts) -

LOL my post got deleted. fuck this forum, its so full of ignorant Sony fanboys. Gamespot can't even review a game without being biased. Gametrailers.com is where its at, people actually talk intelligently and DISCUSS FACTS. go fuck yourself gamespot and X1 haters.

So much tears and rage.

#100 Posted by MK-Professor (3467 posts) -

@me3x12 said:

@Wasdie said:

@me3x12 said:

@04dcarraher said:

@mrxboxone said:

@StormyJoe said:

@me3x12: I don't think the XB1 will produce "better" graphics than the PS4. But, if it can muster 1080p/60fps, that would be good.

I consider the XB1 to be the better device, while the PS4 is a better "gaming only" machine.

The GPU for each console not capable of out doing one another visually. Both will have identical graphics. The only differences is in the performance. 1080p and 60fps has not barrage on graphics.

False The PS4 gpu is able to handle more complex real time effects and more complex model rendering then the X1, its more then just resolution and performance.

The Xbox One can actually push more total polys the the PS4 GPU

I think we're all going to need a source on that.

The Xbox One GPU can do 1.7 billions polys a sec and the PS4 can do 1.6 billion. I'll post a link when I get a chance but you can find the info also.

lol what are you talking about, games today don't do more that 100 millions triangles per sec. PS4 gpu can do more triangles on games than xboxOne gpu because triangle calculations are done by the vertex shaders( and ps4 gpu have way more ALUs that do vertex calculation as well many other things).