Will Marvel ever has it's "Arkham" quility game?

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Edited 5 months, 24 days ago

Poll: Will Marvel ever has it's "Arkham" quility game? (30 votes)

Yes 10%
Activision, no 90%

My friends. After recently seeing the new Xman: Days Or Future Pasts trailer. I was thinking about video games. Marvel, (IMHO) has vastly superior and more interesting characters than DC. DC has, Batman, Superman, and the rest. who nobody gives a fuck about. Agree?

Do you think Marvel will ever wake up at some point and start putting out "Arkham" quality games? Or will we continue to get shit put out primarily by Activision?

#1 Posted by blamix99 (1674 posts) -

I don't think so,

#2 Posted by charizard1605 (55984 posts) -

There is no Marvel character with the layered nuances or subtext of Batman, so no.

(X-Men would come very close, but because it is divested into so many characters, I doubt it would translate as well to a video game, which typically can only follow one, maybe two, character(s) at a time)

#3 Posted by uninspiredcup (7812 posts) -

There is no Marvel character with the layered nuances or subtext of Batman, so no.

This is false my friend. A half dozen characters even in the Xmen universe (let alone the rest of Marvel) have more "layered nuances". Batman is a rich cookie monster who is very hungry.

#4 Posted by charizard1605 (55984 posts) -

@charizard1605 said:

There is no Marvel character with the layered nuances or subtext of Batman, so no.

This is false my friend. A half dozen characters even in the Xmen universe (let alone the rest of Marvel) have more "layered nuances". Batman is a rich cookie monster who is very hungry.

I do mention X-Men above as the sole exception to my statement, but I also point out why X-Men won't work as a game as well as Batman does, and it is something you touch upon yourself: it's divested across too many characters. Video games traditionally follow one, maybe two characters, unless it's an RPG. X-Men wouldn't translate over all that well.

#5 Edited by uninspiredcup (7812 posts) -

@charizard1605 said:

@uninspiredcup said:

@charizard1605 said:

There is no Marvel character with the layered nuances or subtext of Batman, so no.

This is false my friend. A half dozen characters even in the Xmen universe (let alone the rest of Marvel) have more "layered nuances". Batman is a rich cookie monster who is very hungry.

I do mention X-Men above as the sole exception to my statement, but I also point out why X-Men won't work as a game as well as Batman does, and it is something you touch upon yourself: it's divested across too many characters. Video games traditionally follow one, maybe two characters, unless it's an RPG. X-Men wouldn't translate over all that well.

Given how you can basically do anything with video games, I would disagree. regarding Batman, that sort of is Arkhams problem. Rather than focusing on one or two villains, it attempts to ram in as many as possible. And ultimately, every title basically becomes "the joker".

My personal hopes with Origins was "Yes! Black Mask!" But then... well, know. Same shit all over again. Big yawn for the joker.

Even though they mention a brand new villain for Arkham 4, chances are they will find some fucking way of ramming the joker down peoples throats. Fuck.

#6 Posted by charizard1605 (55984 posts) -

@charizard1605 said:

@uninspiredcup said:

@charizard1605 said:

There is no Marvel character with the layered nuances or subtext of Batman, so no.

This is false my friend. A half dozen characters even in the Xmen universe (let alone the rest of Marvel) have more "layered nuances". Batman is a rich cookie monster who is very hungry.

I do mention X-Men above as the sole exception to my statement, but I also point out why X-Men won't work as a game as well as Batman does, and it is something you touch upon yourself: it's divested across too many characters. Video games traditionally follow one, maybe two characters, unless it's an RPG. X-Men wouldn't translate over all that well.

Given how you can basically do anything with video games, I would disagree. regarding Batman, that sort of is Arkhams problem. Rather than focusing on one or two villains, it attempts to ram in as many as possible. And ultimately, every title basically becomes "the joker".

My personal hopes with Origins was "Yes! Black Mask!" But then... well, know. Same shit all over again. Big yawn for the joker.

Even though they mention a brand new villain for Arkham 4, chances are they will find some fucking way of ramming the joker down peoples throats. Fuck.

They can't.

The Joker died at the end of Arkham City.

#7 Edited by uninspiredcup (7812 posts) -

@uninspiredcup said:

@charizard1605 said:

@uninspiredcup said:

@charizard1605 said:

There is no Marvel character with the layered nuances or subtext of Batman, so no.

This is false my friend. A half dozen characters even in the Xmen universe (let alone the rest of Marvel) have more "layered nuances". Batman is a rich cookie monster who is very hungry.

I do mention X-Men above as the sole exception to my statement, but I also point out why X-Men won't work as a game as well as Batman does, and it is something you touch upon yourself: it's divested across too many characters. Video games traditionally follow one, maybe two characters, unless it's an RPG. X-Men wouldn't translate over all that well.

Given how you can basically do anything with video games, I would disagree. regarding Batman, that sort of is Arkhams problem. Rather than focusing on one or two villains, it attempts to ram in as many as possible. And ultimately, every title basically becomes "the joker".

My personal hopes with Origins was "Yes! Black Mask!" But then... well, know. Same shit all over again. Big yawn for the joker.

Even though they mention a brand new villain for Arkham 4, chances are they will find some fucking way of ramming the joker down peoples throats. Fuck.

They can't.

The Joker died at the end of Arkham City.


£10 bet this is what happens. Regardless,

#8 Posted by charizard1605 (55984 posts) -

@charizard1605 said:

@uninspiredcup said:

@charizard1605 said:

@uninspiredcup said:

@charizard1605 said:

There is no Marvel character with the layered nuances or subtext of Batman, so no.

This is false my friend. A half dozen characters even in the Xmen universe (let alone the rest of Marvel) have more "layered nuances". Batman is a rich cookie monster who is very hungry.

I do mention X-Men above as the sole exception to my statement, but I also point out why X-Men won't work as a game as well as Batman does, and it is something you touch upon yourself: it's divested across too many characters. Video games traditionally follow one, maybe two characters, unless it's an RPG. X-Men wouldn't translate over all that well.

Given how you can basically do anything with video games, I would disagree. regarding Batman, that sort of is Arkhams problem. Rather than focusing on one or two villains, it attempts to ram in as many as possible. And ultimately, every title basically becomes "the joker".

My personal hopes with Origins was "Yes! Black Mask!" But then... well, know. Same shit all over again. Big yawn for the joker.

Even though they mention a brand new villain for Arkham 4, chances are they will find some fucking way of ramming the joker down peoples throats. Fuck.

They can't.

The Joker died at the end of Arkham City.

£10 bet this is what happens. Regardless,

I won't bet money (I'm a college student, money is hard to come by xD), but sure, let's make a bet about it.

#9 Posted by zeeshanhaider (2428 posts) -

Nope! Marvel has shit characters.

#10 Posted by SNIPER4321 (10143 posts) -

Marvel comics are terrible. really terrible.

I mean look at Spiderman. most popular marvel comic series yet it make batman badass.

i mean how childish spiderman is. even its movies are crap.

so i dont think any of marvel game can reach arkham quality. eitherway arkham games are not that good. they become very repetetive and has one button combat system.

still Cant wait for Arkham Knights. batmobile will be fun.

#11 Edited by Spartan070 (16333 posts) -

They'd have to make it based off a single character, which one? Would have to be a very "mortal" character, Stark?

#12 Posted by megaspiderweb09 (3686 posts) -

@SNIPER4321: What in the world are you talking about man, Spiderman being for kids?...are you serious

#13 Posted by uninspiredcup (7812 posts) -

They'd have to make it based off a single character, which one? Would have to be a very "mortal" character, Stark?

I dono why you guys keep saying that. (For example) Teletale could possibly make a fucking awesome xmen game.

#14 Posted by IgGy621985 (4624 posts) -

Anyone remember X-Men Origins: Wolverine The Game? It was pretty good. Probably the best game from the Marvel universe.

#15 Posted by Yangire (8787 posts) -

Nope! Marvel has shit characters.

There is no Marvel character with the layered nuances or subtext of Batman, so no.

(X-Men would come very close, but because it is divested into so many characters, I doubt it would translate as well to a video game, which typically can only follow one, maybe two, character(s) at a time)

People who have no experience with Marvel comics.

#16 Posted by vincent380 (2243 posts) -

I don't see why it can't be done, Marvel has tons of characters with great stories and powers.

#17 Posted by 3SidedSquare (297 posts) -

DC will never have Marvel quality movies, and Marvel will never have a game as good as Arkham.

Also Batman is overrated. The character, not the games.

#18 Posted by Heil68 (43436 posts) -

Probably not, but the Wolverine games were pretty good.

#19 Posted by charizard1605 (55984 posts) -

DC will never have Marvel quality movies, and Marvel will never have a game as good as Arkham.

Also Batman is overrated. The character, not the games.

Lol. DC has The Dark Knight Trilogy, which is better, waaaaay better, than the Marvel Cinematic Universe.

#20 Posted by Yangire (8787 posts) -

@3SidedSquare said:

DC will never have Marvel quality movies, and Marvel will never have a game as good as Arkham.

Also Batman is overrated. The character, not the games.

Lol. DC has The Dark Knight Trilogy, which is better, waaaaay better, than the Marvel Cinematic Universe.

So you're judging Marvel and DC's offerings by their movies? I expected more out of you, Char,

#21 Edited by charizard1605 (55984 posts) -

@Yangire said:
@charizard1605 said:

@3SidedSquare said:

DC will never have Marvel quality movies, and Marvel will never have a game as good as Arkham.

Also Batman is overrated. The character, not the games.

Lol. DC has The Dark Knight Trilogy, which is better, waaaaay better, than the Marvel Cinematic Universe.

So you're judging Marvel and DC's offerings by their movies? I expected more out of you, Char,

I'm not? Where did I ever say that I was? :/

#22 Posted by Yangire (8787 posts) -
#23 Edited by uninspiredcup (7812 posts) -

@Yangire said:
@charizard1605 said:

@3SidedSquare said:

DC will never have Marvel quality movies, and Marvel will never have a game as good as Arkham.

Also Batman is overrated. The character, not the games.

Lol. DC has The Dark Knight Trilogy, which is better, waaaaay better, than the Marvel Cinematic Universe.

So you're judging Marvel and DC's offerings by their movies? I expected more out of you, Char,

Even if you judge it by the movies, X2 and first class piss all over Nolans movies. Easily.

People seem to mistake "dark tone" as "better". Objectively, these movies are better in multiple regards. For one thing, it has females who act like females. Nolan can't write females, they are robots with tits.

#24 Posted by charizard1605 (55984 posts) -

@Yangire said:

@charizard1605:

It came across as that, so what comics do you read?

I don't read any anymore. I used to read Batman, Superman, Iron Man, Spiderman, and every now and then, I'd pick up Justice League as well, though that never interested me as much.

Outside of superhero comics, I have read V for Vendetta, League of Extraordinary Gentlemen, The Adventures of Tintin, 300, and Asterix that I remember right off the top of my head- I'm forgetting a lot of stuff right now.

Even if you judge it by the movies, X2 and first class piss all over Nolans movies. Easily.

Patently false, also rather laughable.

#25 Posted by Ballroompirate (22555 posts) -

Stop making stupid threads

Also DC > Marvel, fyi this is coming from a hardcore Marvel fanboy throughout the 90's. Marvel has been pretty bad lately while DC has actually improved.

#26 Edited by uninspiredcup (7812 posts) -

@charizard1605 said:


@uninspiredcup said:

Even if you judge it by the movies, X2 and first class piss all over Nolans movies. Easily.

Patently false, also rather laughable.

Lets use some logic of the movies writing.

Xmen 2.

Magneeto is imprisoned in plastic. So, when Raven masquerading as a Senator learns of his location she seduces a guard and injects him with Iron. This ingeniously allows her to get metal to Magneeto while not being picked up on a scanner due to such a little amount. Magneeto draws the iron and has a great escape scene with the dickhead guard getting his comeuppance.

This is good, well thought out, well written stuff.

The Dark Knight

The Joker puts a bomb in a dude, some how (with magic) knows Batman will smash glass (with magic that he knows is breakable glass which is dumb). Then, he manages to get out the door, the bomb goes off and everyone within 3 feet of him (with magic) drop dead but he is fine. Cut to scene of him in prison car...

This is not.

#27 Posted by charizard1605 (55984 posts) -

@uninspiredcup: But... the scene you described doesn't happen in The Dark Knight. At all.

You want to talk about bad writing? How about the fact that in X2, Jean Grey didn't fucking need to die?

#28 Edited by uninspiredcup (7812 posts) -

@charizard1605 said:

@uninspiredcup: But... the scene you described doesn't happen in The Dark Knight. At all.

You want to talk about bad writing? How about the fact that in X2, Jean Grey didn't fucking need to die?

It does.

Another example... Batman Begins...

Bruce Wayne refuses to join the league of Shadows proclaiming the courts should deal with someone they want executed. "I'm no executioner". He then proceeds to blow up the building executing everyone with a pulse in (including the fucking guy they wanted dead) but his bro (because the story needs him alive for later on).

This is stupid,

#29 Edited by ni6htmare01 (914 posts) -

Sure they can with the right people making it. They can make a great rated R Punisher game with a great story and action!

#30 Posted by Ballroompirate (22555 posts) -

Sure they can with the right people making it. They can make a great rated R Punisher game with a great story and action!

They did on the PS2, which was a pretty amazing game. The Punisher movie (the one that was made like 5 or 6 years ago) left a bad taste in peoples mouths so we won't see a decent Punisher game at all in the future most likely.

#31 Posted by charizard1605 (55984 posts) -

@charizard1605 said:

@uninspiredcup: But... the scene you described doesn't happen in The Dark Knight. At all.

You want to talk about bad writing? How about the fact that in X2, Jean Grey didn't fucking need to die?

It does.

Another example... Batman Begins...

Bruce Wayne refuses to join the league of Shadows proclaiming the courts should deal with someone they want executed. "I'm no executioner". He then proceeds to blow up the building executing everyone with a puls in (including the fucking guy they wanted dead) but his bro (because the story needs him alive for later on).

This is stupid,

No it didn't, did you see The Dark Knight?

You are referring to the prison sequence, which plays out nothing like what you just described.

As for Batman Begins, sure, that was there, that was dumb.

You know what else was dumb? Toad's death in X-Men. Or, and I can't stress this enough, Jean Grey's death in X-Men 2. You know, the movie held up as the paragon of 'serious' Marvel cinematic goodness by people such as yourself? Yeah, pretty big plothole right there.

Do you want to know why? Because, and say it with me here- these. Are. Fucking. Comic book. Movies.

They're going to have some suspension of disbelief and logic necessary to enjoy them. Actually, I'm doing these movies a disservice here, any movie will require that. Nitpicking about co-incidences or 'dumb' decisions that drive the story in the movie forwards is getting you nowhere. If you dislike 'poor' writing such as this, you might as well just stop watching mainstream movies and just stick to indie and arthouse films. Or, since I know you like them, Bollywood movies.

#32 Edited by uninspiredcup (7812 posts) -

Suspension of disbelief of works in Xmen because it can seamlessly jump between tone (due to being a superior movies). It can quite happily go for Sir Ian or Sir Patric scene chewing like they are in Hamlet to Sir Ian winking in campy delight.

The Dark Knight is po faced, attempting realism grounded reality approach. But, due to being inferior, are logically dumb and tonally uneven.

A great example of this infereioity can plainly be seen in the "so that's what it feels like" cookie monster voice (because he can't act) in TDK. Which is suppose to be light humor but fails miserably due to xmen being 100X better.

Also Christopher Nolan is a big dickhead. Dream within a dream my arse.

#33 Edited by lostrib (34331 posts) -

@uninspiredcup: But... the scene you described doesn't happen in The Dark Knight. At all.

You want to talk about bad writing? How about the fact that in X2, Jean Grey didn't fucking need to die?

Lol, I was watching X2 at the gym the other day and it was the ending, and yeah there is not a whole lot of reason for Jean Grey to die. Besides setting up the awful 3rd movie

#34 Posted by charizard1605 (55984 posts) -

Suspension of disbelief of works in Xmen because it can seamlessly jump between tone (due to being a superior movies). It can quite happily go for Sir Ian or Sir Patric scene chewing like they are in Hamlet to Sir Ian winking in campy delight.

The Dark Knight is po faced, attempting realism grounded reality approach. But, due to being inferior, are logically dumb and tonally uneven.

A great example of this infereioity can plainly be seen in the "so that's what it feels like" cookie monster voice (because he can't act) in TDK. Which is suppose to be light humor but fails miserably due to xmen being 100X better.

Also Christopher Nolan is a big dickhead. Dream within a dream my arse.

So, basically, you're an idiot talking out of his arse. Gotcha. Don't really know why I expected to engage you in a meaningful conversation, maybe I thought it'd be different with movies than it is with games. My bad. I won't make that mistake again.

@lostrib said:

Lol, I was watching X2 at the gym the other day and it was the ending, and yeah there is not a whole lot of reason for Jean Grey to die. Besides setting up the awful 3rd movie

Dude, the third movie was going to be so awesome originally :( Then they went ahead and fucked it all up.

#35 Posted by Ballroompirate (22555 posts) -

@lostrib said:

@charizard1605 said:

@uninspiredcup: But... the scene you described doesn't happen in The Dark Knight. At all.

You want to talk about bad writing? How about the fact that in X2, Jean Grey didn't fucking need to die?

Lol, I was watching X2 at the gym the other day and it was the ending, and yeah there is not a whole lot of reason for Jean Grey to die. Besides setting up the awful 3rd movie

All of the X-men movies were horrible, except First Class.

#36 Posted by lostrib (34331 posts) -

@lostrib said:

@charizard1605 said:

@uninspiredcup: But... the scene you described doesn't happen in The Dark Knight. At all.

You want to talk about bad writing? How about the fact that in X2, Jean Grey didn't fucking need to die?

Lol, I was watching X2 at the gym the other day and it was the ending, and yeah there is not a whole lot of reason for Jean Grey to die. Besides setting up the awful 3rd movie

All of the X-men movies were horrible, except First Class.

Compared to Wolverine: Origins, they were Oscar Worthy

#37 Posted by charizard1605 (55984 posts) -

@lostrib said:

@charizard1605 said:

@uninspiredcup: But... the scene you described doesn't happen in The Dark Knight. At all.

You want to talk about bad writing? How about the fact that in X2, Jean Grey didn't fucking need to die?

Lol, I was watching X2 at the gym the other day and it was the ending, and yeah there is not a whole lot of reason for Jean Grey to die. Besides setting up the awful 3rd movie

All of the X-men movies were horrible, except First Class.

X2 was pretty good in spite of the plotholes though.

I really need to see First Class...

Days of the Future Past looks amazing

#38 Posted by lostrib (34331 posts) -

@Ballroompirate said:

@lostrib said:

@charizard1605 said:

@uninspiredcup: But... the scene you described doesn't happen in The Dark Knight. At all.

You want to talk about bad writing? How about the fact that in X2, Jean Grey didn't fucking need to die?

Lol, I was watching X2 at the gym the other day and it was the ending, and yeah there is not a whole lot of reason for Jean Grey to die. Besides setting up the awful 3rd movie

All of the X-men movies were horrible, except First Class.

X2 was pretty good in spite of the plotholes though.

I really need to see First Class...

Days of the Future Past looks amazing

However the new poster looks awful

#39 Posted by charizard1605 (55984 posts) -

@lostrib said:

@charizard1605 said:

@Ballroompirate said:

@lostrib said:

@charizard1605 said:

@uninspiredcup: But... the scene you described doesn't happen in The Dark Knight. At all.

You want to talk about bad writing? How about the fact that in X2, Jean Grey didn't fucking need to die?

Lol, I was watching X2 at the gym the other day and it was the ending, and yeah there is not a whole lot of reason for Jean Grey to die. Besides setting up the awful 3rd movie

All of the X-men movies were horrible, except First Class.

X2 was pretty good in spite of the plotholes though.

I really need to see First Class...

Days of the Future Past looks amazing

However the new poster looks awful

Ew. Yeah, that looks low budget as fuck lol.

#40 Edited by linkdarkside (6253 posts) -

a good game about Captain America would be awesome.

#41 Edited by Ballroompirate (22555 posts) -

@lostrib:

True but they still sucked :P

In fact the only Marvel movies that weren't meh-horrible are Ironman 1, X-Men First Class, Avengers, Thor 2 and The Amazing Spider-Man.

#42 Posted by uninspiredcup (7812 posts) -
@lostrib said:

@charizard1605 said:

@uninspiredcup: But... the scene you described doesn't happen in The Dark Knight. At all.

You want to talk about bad writing? How about the fact that in X2, Jean Grey didn't fucking need to die?

Lol, I was watching X2 at the gym the other day and it was the ending, and yeah there is not a whole lot of reason for Jean Grey to die. Besides setting up the awful 3rd movie

The dam had to be stopped for them to leave. Also she doesn't die.

Again, writing. Script e.t.c....

#43 Posted by charizard1605 (55984 posts) -

@lostrib:

True but they still sucked :P

In fact the only Marvel movies that weren't meh-horrible are Ironman 1, X-Men First Class, Avengers, Thor 2 and The Amazing Spider-Man.

Spiderman 2...!

#44 Posted by BruceBenzing (312 posts) -

At least Marvel is trying to make movies. Amazing Spiderman 2, Days of Future Past and Captain America Winter Soldier look good. Guardians will probably be a flop, What is DC giving you? Last years Man of Steel was a joke and you get to look forward to Ben Aflake as Batman . Also the 3rd Dark Knight movie wasn't that great.

#45 Edited by HadOne2Many (1252 posts) -

The Avengers Movie was the best superhero movie ever made, and the 3 Ironman movies are better than any movie with "Batman" in the title except the comedy Adam West starred in way back when.

EDIT: as for the original topic, I think Lego has made the best Marvel game to date, but there are no shortages of good Marvel characters to choose from. A developer could just decide what type of game they want, and there would be a Marvel character who could fit the role.

#46 Posted by uninspiredcup (7812 posts) -

At least Marvel is trying to make movies. Amazing Spiderman 2, Days of Future Past and Captain America Winter Soldier look good. Guardians will probably be a flop, What is DC giving you? Last years Man of Steel was a joke and you get to look forward to Ben Aflake as Batman . Also the 3rd Dark Knight movie wasn't that great.

My friend, Ben Afleck is pretty decent in Daredevil a similar generic character to Batman. the movie, so-so, however he himself in it, is ok.

Not entirely sure why the young people be hating. It will be quite hard for anyone to be as bad as Christian Bale.

#47 Posted by charizard1605 (55984 posts) -

At least Marvel is trying to make movies. Amazing Spiderman 2, Days of Future Past and Captain America Winter Soldier look good. Guardians will probably be a flop, What is DC giving you? Last years Man of Steel was a joke and you get to look forward to Ben Aflake as Batman . Also the 3rd Dark Knight movie wasn't that great.

DC is giving me:

  • Great comics (isn't the New 52 line universally well received?)
  • Great TV (watch Arrow. It shames Agents of SHIELD, and is a darn good TV show in its own right)
  • Great games (where is Marvel's Batman: Arkham again?)
  • Great, albeit inconsistent, movies (The Dark Knight Trilogy was great; Man of Steel was a bust, but I do have high hopes from Batman vs Superman, they seem to be getting a lot right)

Meanwhile, all of Marvel's phase two movies so far have been disappointing- Iron Man 3 makes the entire Tony Stark storyline redundant, Thor 2 was great, but underwhelming after the first one, although Captain America 2 admittedly looks great. Marvels's TV show sucks, and their comic line is stuck in a rut. Also, Marvel's video games are a joke.

#48 Edited by uninspiredcup (7812 posts) -

@Ballroompirate said:

@lostrib:

True but they still sucked :P

In fact the only Marvel movies that weren't meh-horrible are Ironman 1, X-Men First Class, Avengers, Thor 2 and The Amazing Spider-Man.

My freind, a Metal Gear Solid avatar makes you far from criticizing movies since these are essentially the worst movies ever made. Any leaps in Nolans work is but a grain of sand compared to Kojima's long ponderous pretentious nonsense. Bannana's in Pajama's is better written. With better theme tune to boot that isn't plagiarized like pretty much everything in Metal Gear solids.

#49 Posted by Ballroompirate (22555 posts) -

@Ballroompirate said:

@lostrib:

True but they still sucked :P

In fact the only Marvel movies that weren't meh-horrible are Ironman 1, X-Men First Class, Avengers, Thor 2 and The Amazing Spider-Man.

Spiderman 2...!

Fraking hated the Tobey Maguire Spidey films

#50 Posted by lostrib (34331 posts) -

@charizard1605 said:

@Ballroompirate said:

@lostrib:

True but they still sucked :P

In fact the only Marvel movies that weren't meh-horrible are Ironman 1, X-Men First Class, Avengers, Thor 2 and The Amazing Spider-Man.

Spiderman 2...!

Fraking hated the Tobey Maguire Spidey films

Yeah, Tobey Maguire sucks in general, as does Kirsten Dunst