Why can't SquareEnix learn from FFVI?

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#1 Edited by texasgoldrush (9422 posts) -

This year is FFVI's 20th Anniversary, and yet SquareEnix not only treats this game like its not important (other than a good but not great iOS port), it ignores now days what made FFVI so great.

The debate is over with western publications and critics.....its now near unanimously held as the best Final Fantasy game in almost every major gaming website and magazine (more so now then say, 10 years ago)....IGN (who also named it the best RPG ever made), Gameinformer, gamesradar, Gametrailers, Destructoid, the escapist, to name a few. the debate now, is which is second best..IV, VII, IX, or X, with Tactics thrown in if spinoffs count. Why can't SquareEnix read the west? So what, its not as popular in Japan, but Final Fantasy is a global franchise and SquareEnix should respect that instead of moving the series more to local tastes and claim westerners don't get their games.

Why is FFVI so acclaimed?

1) Because instead of going with a convoluted mess of a plot, like its sequels do, it went with a simple plot, but with deep themes and focus on characters. But nope, Final Fantasy plots have become more and more ridiculous, with XIII needing a codex to understand the plot.

2) It was also a well directed game, an ur-example of game direction, so well done that all the little things can seem big. There are so many examples. Nevermind the big set pieces like the Opera or Celes's suicide attempt, hell FFVI actually has rare examples of deus ex machina pulled off well, where it adds to the story instead of hurts it. Contrast this with FFXIII's endgame...yuck. I cannot even think of a poorly directed moment in FFVI.....even some scenes in Mass Effect Trilogy have some poor direction, but FFVI? None.

3) Another factor, the excellent localization done by Ted Woolsey, only hampered by Nintendo of America's censorship policy at the time. He didn't translate it, he westernized it. Notice a Beavis and Butthead shout out early in the game? No wonder why Kefka is more popular in the west than in Japan. many of his famous quotes were written by Woolsey. But now, other than Smith translating Matsuno's stories, the localizations have gotten worse and much of it is to do with the treatment of their translators and the poor working environment they have.

4) Also, best open world storytelling I have ever seen in the World of Ruin. While there is much less of a plot, everything is connected through its powerful themes of finding meaning in life and to overcome the pain of losing a loved one. So instead of the plot holding things together, its the themes. Take that, Skyrim. Even Mass Effect 2 can't compare to how well done FFVI's World of Ruin is in open game design.

But now Final Fantasy is rife with poor direction, bad writing and storytelling, poor character designs, subpar localization, design decisions and story decisions to try to appeal to the fanbase instead of whats right for the story (see Vaan), and a move to more incorporation of Japanese pop culture and modernism thanks to Toriyama and Nomura (even getting backlash from Japanse gamers regarding FFXV). So instead of learning from what made FFVI the most acclaimed FF game, they are moving away from the values that made it great. Shame.

#2 Posted by Gue1 (11178 posts) -

there's nothing to learn from such an archaic game that you could use today. FFVI had good story but every FF game after it has it beaten on gameplay mechanics, in particular FF7 and FF12. Challenging bosses, crazy sidequests, deep customization... A game like FFVI wouldn't work today, at least not on consoles, because everything's so very simple and basic when most fans are expecting a clever triple A experience and not pokemon with hd graphics.

But I believe FFXV will be the best FF game in years even if all the main characters look like japanese hosts or idols. The only complaint from fans is that the battle system is not turn based but when you look back, beside FFX (and FF Tactics) all the others have been pretty braindead anyway. But Nomura said the game will not be a straight up action game because it'll have touches of strategy, you can use every character from the party during battle, there are team attacks, sidequests, worldmap, a level up system, etc. So FFXV is not just a DMC rip-off trying to pass for an RPG. Its story is about countries conspiring to obtain the last crystal, which sounds like a traditional setting very reminiscent to FF4. And beside, this is Nomura we are talking about not Toriyama. Almost certain the story will be ultra convoluted though because to Nomura: shock value > making sense.

#3 Edited by Pray_to_me (3053 posts) -

@Gue1 said:

there's nothing to learn from such an archaic game that you could use today. FFVI had good story but every FF game after it has it beaten on gameplay mechanics, in particular FF7 and FF12. Challenging bosses, crazy sidequests, deep customization... A game like FFVI wouldn't work today, at least not on consoles, because everything's so very simple and basic when most fans are expecting a clever triple A experience and not pokemon with hd graphics.

But I believe FFXV will be the best FF game in years even if all the main characters look like japanese hosts or idols. The only complaint from fans is that the battle system is not turn based but when you look back, beside FFX (and FF Tactics) all the others have been pretty braindead anyway. But Nomura said the game will not be a straight up action game because it'll have touches of strategy, you can use every character from the party during battle, there are team attacks, sidequests, worldmap, a level up system, etc. So FFXV is not just a DMC rip-off trying to pass for an RPG. Its story is about countries conspiring to obtain the last crystal, which sounds like a traditional setting very reminiscent to FF4. And beside, this is Nomura we are talking about not Toriyama. Almost certain the story will be ultra convoluted though because to Nomura: shock value > making sense.

What you just said is mad stupid.

#4 Edited by DerekLoffin (8807 posts) -

@Pray_to_me said:

@Gue1 said:

there's nothing to learn from such an archaic game that you could use today. FFVI had good story but every FF game after it has it beaten on gameplay mechanics, in particular FF7 and FF12. Challenging bosses, crazy sidequests, deep customization... A game like FFVI wouldn't work today, at least not on consoles, because everything's so very simple and basic when most fans are expecting a clever triple A experience and not pokemon with hd graphics.

But I believe FFXV will be the best FF game in years even if all the main characters look like japanese hosts or idols. The only complaint from fans is that the battle system is not turn based but when you look back, beside FFX (and FF Tactics) all the others have been pretty braindead anyway. But Nomura said the game will not be a straight up action game because it'll have touches of strategy, you can use every character from the party during battle, there are team attacks, sidequests, worldmap, a level up system, etc. So FFXV is not just a DMC rip-off trying to pass for an RPG. Its story is about countries conspiring to obtain the last crystal, which sounds like a traditional setting very reminiscent to FF4. And beside, this is Nomura we are talking about not Toriyama. Almost certain the story will be ultra convoluted though because to Nomura: shock value > making sense.

What you just said is mad stupid.

Nono, you're not doing it right:

Loading Video...
#6 Edited by texasgoldrush (9422 posts) -

wow...lol

anyone play the iOS version?

#7 Edited by Vaasman (11751 posts) -

Lol TGR thread.

#8 Posted by Kusimeka (133 posts) -

Totally agree with the TC. FFVI is the best FF in the series, he is not saying that new releases should just copy it, gameplay included. But that they should learn from it. Of course the gameplay can be improved, but the storyline is 10x better than any recent trash they have released.

#9 Edited by WallofTruth (2003 posts) -

Why would they learn anything from VI when IX was the best Final Fantasy ever and probably one of the best games ever released?

#10 Edited by glez13 (9012 posts) -

What I liked about VI was that there were parts where it wasn't clear cut if there was a main protagonist. When it needed to focus on a certain character it made that character feel as the main protagonist instead of shoehorning a sole character as the main protagonist into every event and situation in the game. It had some cool stuff like when the party gets separated and you get to choose which to play and see the story unfold first. VI had some interesting character, story and storytelling elements that where sadly dumped little by little as the series went on and would be cool to see in a modern form.

#11 Edited by texasgoldrush (9422 posts) -

@glez13 said:

What I liked about VI was that there were parts where it wasn't clear cut if there was a main protagonist. When it needed to focus on a certain character it made that character feel as the main protagonist instead of shoehorning a sole character as the main protagonist into every event and situation in the game. It had some cool stuff like when the party gets separated and you get to choose which to play and see the story unfold first. VI had some interesting character, story and storytelling elements that where sadly dumped little by little as the series went on and would be cool to see in a modern form.

Here is where it gets weird.

Kitase's intentions were that there was not supposed to be a main protagonist, however, I do no think it ended up in practice that way. I do think both Terra and Celes are he main protagonists with Locke the top support character who supports both protagonists. This and Kitase has now said that he kinda made Celes's (and Kefka's) role too large and "lost the balance", but really come to think of it, its natural for Celes to get a major role, even a protagonist one in the World of Ruin. So, parts of FFVI came as an accident.

Its funny how Terra and Celes are so similar but so much contrasts from each other.

#12 Edited by texasgoldrush (9422 posts) -

@walloftruth said:

Why would they learn anything from VI when IX was the best Final Fantasy ever and probably one of the best games ever released?

I like IX, but no its not.....IX's narrative is so influenced by FFVI, it feels very similar. Also the narrative, while the characters are great, does not have the consistency of FFVI and it bites off more than it can chew.

#13 Edited by dr_jashugan (2591 posts) -

Maybe because SE just want to make "Go from A to B" type of RPGs? :-P

#14 Edited by ConanTheStoner (7203 posts) -

TL;DR all the way.

That said, I fully agree with the topic title. It doesn't just have to be FFVI though. They should take a good long look at every FF game between 4 and 12. All of them had some great qualities, some more so than others. While they're at it, they should also look to Chrono Trigger, Chrono Cross and Super Mario RPG.

But yes, if they had to pick just one game to evaluate and then evolve from, FFVI would be the one.

Edit: So I read the OP. Pat yourself on the back dude, I don't come to SW to read lol.

And yes, I agree with it all. Seems so odd that SE is so disconnected these days. It should be just the opposite.

#15 Edited by finalfantasy94 (26853 posts) -

just go back and play FF 6 then.I rather them keep trying new things.While FF13 series may not be the best thing ever it still was an fun ride for me.Though imo its the battle system is one of the top battle systems in the series.Now its time to see what they do with the next one.

#16 Posted by Capitan_Kid (6627 posts) -

Noone gives a shit about FFVI when its far superior brother FFVII is around . Not to mention the other FFs that are quite better than it

#17 Edited by ActicEdge (24492 posts) -

FF6 is great but the translation (SNES) is really not that good and the script in the form it came to NA as was pretty meh written. (or basically I disagree with you that the localization was fantastic. I think it was fine but it could have been better. A lot of RPGs out of Japan have the characters stringing together some rather strange sentences) The game could use a remake. Certain aspects of the game are awesome and got refined in future editions (like the battle square transition from 6--->7 for example). The game by far had the best set of characters in the series from what I played (3-8, 12). Personally when I look at the best RPGs SE put out I think I put Chrono Trigger over FF6. My favourite SE RPGs would go FF6, FF7, Chrono Trigger, Vagrant Story, TWEWY.

Also, Kefka is not a great villain. I can't think of a great villain in any FF game.

#18 Posted by ActicEdge (24492 posts) -

@Capitan_Kid said:

Noone gives a shit about FFVI when its far superior brother FFVII is around . Not to mention the other FFs that are quite better than it

I dunno what FF7 you played but the one I played was not much better than 6. Characters were far weaker. (world was better realized though and the game variety was better) Battle system was not much better either.

#19 Posted by turtlethetaffer (17142 posts) -

I think FFVI is a true masterpiece. The first time I played through and beat it was just last year and it stands the test of time, truly. It's incredibly well designed, has a superb but simple plot, excellent cast and incredible music. Not much more you can wish for in a JRPG. Only issue was that there was some grinding at the end since you needed three teams for the final dungeon and, at least for me, I wasn't consistently using all the characters. Some of them (Gau, the old guy) were woefully underleveled). even then, it wasn't that bad.

Plus, Mog is one of my most unexpected favorite RPG characters to play as.

#20 Edited by Aljosa23 (25820 posts) -

Because Square-Enix is stupid.

I'm not even a big fan of VI (I like V and XII more) but I welcome the idea of them looking to the past for inspiration.

#21 Edited by turtlethetaffer (17142 posts) -

@ActicEdge: How is Kefka not awesome? I'd see he's great in the way the Joker is- he's just a power hungry, insane clown (who also attains ultimate power) and isn't afraid to step on some toes. Hell, he gets a light house that shoes nuclear lasers!

#22 Posted by lightleggy (16085 posts) -

Square is too busy licking FFXIII balls and milking FFVII

#23 Edited by turtlethetaffer (17142 posts) -

@lightleggy: How can they be milking FFVII? Movies?

#24 Posted by ActicEdge (24492 posts) -

@turtlethetaffer said:

@ActicEdge: How is Kefka not awesome? I'd see he's great in the way the Joker is- he's just a power hungry, insane clown (who also attains ultimate power) and isn't afraid to step on some toes. Hell, he gets a light house that shoes nuclear lasers!

Evil for the sake of being evil. Its kind of boring. He was hyped up as being this awesome villain and when I played it it was more like, he does some evil shit because why not and then does the good old betrayalton that was not even done that well. Meh.

#25 Posted by ActicEdge (24492 posts) -

@Aljosa23 said:

Because Square-Enix is stupid.

I'm not even a big fan of VI (I like V and XII more) but I welcome the idea of them looking to the past for inspiration.

That's that shit I do like. Game may have a shit story but damn, Job system = Ace, and advance version = amazing end game.

#26 Edited by AcidTango (743 posts) -

After I'm done with Chrono Trigger and Dragon Quest VI, I'm going to start Final Fantasy V and VI. Going to be the first time playing those two games.

#27 Edited by texasgoldrush (9422 posts) -

@ActicEdge said:

@turtlethetaffer said:

@ActicEdge: How is Kefka not awesome? I'd see he's great in the way the Joker is- he's just a power hungry, insane clown (who also attains ultimate power) and isn't afraid to step on some toes. Hell, he gets a light house that shoes nuclear lasers!

Evil for the sake of being evil. Its kind of boring. He was hyped up as being this awesome villain and when I played it it was more like, he does some evil shit because why not and then does the good old betrayalton that was not even done that well. Meh.

WRONG

He is NOT evil for the sake of being evil. He is evil because he thinks life is meaningless, and wants to prove it in the most sadistic and ruthless manner possible. You did not read his dialogue. He is an ideologue for nihilism.

@Capitan_Kid said:

Noone gives a shit about FFVI when its far superior brother FFVII is around . Not to mention the other FFs that are quite better than it

Then why does it not place #1 in most gaming media websites?

because simply put, FFVI has FAR better game direction, nevermind how much FFVII is influenced by FFVI. Hell it is FFVI that changed the series artistically and narratively, NOT VII. Playing through both, I can easily tell two things 1) That many aspects of FFVII are very much similar to aspects of FFVI and 2) That FFVII is a less coherent and more unevenly directed game. Now lets not forget that One Winged Angel Sephiroth is a near complete ripoff of Kefka's final boss form, without the depth.

#28 Edited by ActicEdge (24492 posts) -

@texasgoldrush said:

@ActicEdge said:

@turtlethetaffer said:

@ActicEdge: How is Kefka not awesome? I'd see he's great in the way the Joker is- he's just a power hungry, insane clown (who also attains ultimate power) and isn't afraid to step on some toes. Hell, he gets a light house that shoes nuclear lasers!

Evil for the sake of being evil. Its kind of boring. He was hyped up as being this awesome villain and when I played it it was more like, he does some evil shit because why not and then does the good old betrayalton that was not even done that well. Meh.

WRONG

He is NOT evil for the sake of being evil. He is evil because he thinks life is meaningless, and wants to prove it in the most sadistic and ruthless manner possible. You did not read his dialogue. He is an ideologue for nihilism.

I read the dialogue, Kefka is nothing special. Lots of villains think life is meaningless because. . .because I think life is meaningless. That's the definition of evil for the sake of being evil. If Kefka thinks, life is meaningless, why hasn't he already killed himself? (and I mean this 100% seriously because life starts and ends with you. In the game itself, Celes tries to commit suicide strictly because she feels that her life has lost meaning as a specific example of why what you're saying is imo just some bullshit in regards to Kefka) He's not a great villain, any motherfucker can be ruthless and hurt people, it doesn't mean your motivations are justified or have any core principle behind them besides "I can do it so I will". That is Kefka and basically all FF villains.

#29 Edited by texasgoldrush (9422 posts) -

@ActicEdge said:

FF6 is great but the translation (SNES) is really not that good and the script in the form it came to NA as was pretty meh written. (or basically I disagree with you that the localization was fantastic. I think it was fine but it could have been better. A lot of RPGs out of Japan have the characters stringing together some rather strange sentences) The game could use a remake. Certain aspects of the game are awesome and got refined in future editions (like the battle square transition from 6--->7 for example). The game by far had the best set of characters in the series from what I played (3-8, 12). Personally when I look at the best RPGs SE put out I think I put Chrono Trigger over FF6. My favourite SE RPGs would go FF6, FF7, Chrono Trigger, Vagrant Story, TWEWY.

Also, Kefka is not a great villain. I can't think of a great villain in any FF game.

No, the only aspect that hurts FFVI's original localization was Nintendo of America's stupid censorship policies, to where instead of having natural conversation and dialogue dealing with issues like death and suicide, Woolsey had to cover it up with euphemisms and alternate word usage. Nevermind unlike most JRPG translations, Ted Woolsey did NOT translate the game directly. This is true for Secret of Mana, Chrono Trigger, and Mario RPG as well. Squaresoft learned from the FFIV translation debacle and hired him as a way to improve localizations.

And playing the iOS version with the censorship (outside one scene) gone, there is no better localization than FFVI in the series, with Vagrant Story being the exception.

#30 Edited by ActicEdge (24492 posts) -

@texasgoldrush said:

@ActicEdge said:

FF6 is great but the translation (SNES) is really not that good and the script in the form it came to NA as was pretty meh written. (or basically I disagree with you that the localization was fantastic. I think it was fine but it could have been better. A lot of RPGs out of Japan have the characters stringing together some rather strange sentences) The game could use a remake. Certain aspects of the game are awesome and got refined in future editions (like the battle square transition from 6--->7 for example). The game by far had the best set of characters in the series from what I played (3-8, 12). Personally when I look at the best RPGs SE put out I think I put Chrono Trigger over FF6. My favourite SE RPGs would go FF6, FF7, Chrono Trigger, Vagrant Story, TWEWY.

Also, Kefka is not a great villain. I can't think of a great villain in any FF game.

No, the only aspect that hurts FFVI's original localization was Nintendo of America's stupid censorship policies, to where instead of having natural conversation and dialogue dealing with issues like death and suicide, Woolsey had to cover it up with euphemisms and alternate word usage. Nevermind unlike most JRPG translations, Ted Woolsey did NOT translate the game directly. This is true for Secret of Mana, Chrono Trigger, and Mario RPG as well. Squaresoft learned from the FFIV translation debacle and hired him as a way to improve localizations.

And playing the iOS version with the censorship (outside one scene) gone, there is no better localization than FFVI in the series, with Vagrant Story being the exception.

If you don't think the localization is what hurts the dialogue then I default to the fact that I don't think it is all that well written. I don't really care who was responsible for what I read, I care about what I actually read and in my opinion it was not written well. Whatever you want the explanation for that to be is not going to change that the game I played had what I would refer to as a ton of sloppy text. Also, for the record, a localization isn't suppose to be a direct translation (I'm sure you already know this but I'm saying it so you're aware I do as well), it's suppose to relate the general core of the text while making it more accessible and familiar to the audience that it's being delivered to. I don't think what the presented was flawless by any means. The best written SE game I gave played is as you said, Vagrant Story (which is the most bitchin game).

#31 Posted by Basinboy (11374 posts) -

Is it only me who feels Kefka is basically The Joker in a FF universe?

*insert obligatory shout-out to FFIX as the best game in the series*

#32 Edited by texasgoldrush (9422 posts) -

@ActicEdge said:

@texasgoldrush said:

@ActicEdge said:

@turtlethetaffer said:

@ActicEdge: How is Kefka not awesome? I'd see he's great in the way the Joker is- he's just a power hungry, insane clown (who also attains ultimate power) and isn't afraid to step on some toes. Hell, he gets a light house that shoes nuclear lasers!

Evil for the sake of being evil. Its kind of boring. He was hyped up as being this awesome villain and when I played it it was more like, he does some evil shit because why not and then does the good old betrayalton that was not even done that well. Meh.

WRONG

He is NOT evil for the sake of being evil. He is evil because he thinks life is meaningless, and wants to prove it in the most sadistic and ruthless manner possible. You did not read his dialogue. He is an ideologue for nihilism.

I read the dialogue, Kefka is nothing special. Lots of villains think life is meaningless because. . .because I think life is meaningless. That's the definition of evil for the sake of being evil. If Kefka thinks, life is meaningless, why hasn't he already killed himself? (and I mean this 100% seriously because life starts and ends with you. In the game itself, Celes tries to commit suicide strictly because she feels that her life has lost meaning as a specific example of why what you're saying is imo just some bullshit in regards to Kefka) He's not a great villain, any motherfucker can be ruthless and hurt people, it doesn't mean your motivations are justified or have any core principle behind them besides "I can do it so I will". That is Kefka and basically all FF villains.

You simply are not getting that he is an ideologue and that his actions fit the motive. His actions match his beliefs, especially in the World of Ruin. Nevermind he finds enjoyment in killing people and destroying things, so what makes you think he wouldn't kill himself after he is done with everything?

The only way a person can do evil for the sake of evil, if he knows its evil and he does it because its evil, usually parody characters or characters in comedy. Kefka is not this. He does his deeds because not only that he enjoys them, but for ideological reasons and to seek power.

#33 Posted by texasgoldrush (9422 posts) -

@ActicEdge said:

@texasgoldrush said:

@ActicEdge said:

FF6 is great but the translation (SNES) is really not that good and the script in the form it came to NA as was pretty meh written. (or basically I disagree with you that the localization was fantastic. I think it was fine but it could have been better. A lot of RPGs out of Japan have the characters stringing together some rather strange sentences) The game could use a remake. Certain aspects of the game are awesome and got refined in future editions (like the battle square transition from 6--->7 for example). The game by far had the best set of characters in the series from what I played (3-8, 12). Personally when I look at the best RPGs SE put out I think I put Chrono Trigger over FF6. My favourite SE RPGs would go FF6, FF7, Chrono Trigger, Vagrant Story, TWEWY.

Also, Kefka is not a great villain. I can't think of a great villain in any FF game.

No, the only aspect that hurts FFVI's original localization was Nintendo of America's stupid censorship policies, to where instead of having natural conversation and dialogue dealing with issues like death and suicide, Woolsey had to cover it up with euphemisms and alternate word usage. Nevermind unlike most JRPG translations, Ted Woolsey did NOT translate the game directly. This is true for Secret of Mana, Chrono Trigger, and Mario RPG as well. Squaresoft learned from the FFIV translation debacle and hired him as a way to improve localizations.

And playing the iOS version with the censorship (outside one scene) gone, there is no better localization than FFVI in the series, with Vagrant Story being the exception.

If you don't think the localization is what hurts the dialogue then I default to the fact that I don't think it is all that well written. I don't really care who was responsible for what I read, I care about what I actually read and in my opinion it was not written well. Whatever you want the explanation for that to be is not going to change that the game I played had what I would refer to as a ton of sloppy text. Also, for the record, a localization isn't suppose to be a direct translation (I'm sure you already know this but I'm saying it so you're aware I do as well), it's suppose to relate the general core of the text while making it more accessible and familiar to the audience that it's being delivered to. I don't think what the presented was flawless by any means. The best written SE game I gave played is as you said, Vagrant Story (which is the most bitchin game).

But it is, and that's why FFVI is popular here in the West. A lot of the reason has to do with the dialogue itself. It is witty and funny as it is poignant and serious. Please tell me that the scene with Rachel saying goodbye to Locke wasn't well written...please.

Compare FFVI with FFVII's localization. FFVII's is FAR worse, so is VIII. Compare FFXIII trilogy script with VI. be thankful for what you got.

#34 Posted by ActicEdge (24492 posts) -

@texasgoldrush said:

You simply are not getting that he is an ideologue and that his actions fit the motive. His actions match his beliefs, especially in the World of Ruin. Nevermind he finds enjoyment in killing people and destroying things, so what makes you think he wouldn't kill himself after he is done with everything?

The only way a person can do evil for the sake of evil, if he knows its evil and he does it because its evil, usually parody characters or characters in comedy. Kefka is not this. He does his deeds because not only that he enjoys them, but for ideological reasons and to seek power.

I'm not misunderstanding anything, he just isn't a good character imo. There is nothing driving his motivations besides just doing evil shit because he like to hurt people and a greater desire for power. Snore, this is give or take what all the FF villains are about. If you really want to put forth Kefka has some divine and amazing ideology (he doesn't), give me some examples. He literally just does a whole bunch of evil shit ie Poisons drinking water because yo I'm evil, destroys towns because yo they resisted that I'm awesome, betrays emperor because yo, wide open chance to become more powerful because of really lame reasons. Nothing about him was entertaining or thought provoking. He's just a crazy villain, meh, big deal.

#35 Edited by ActicEdge (24492 posts) -

@texasgoldrush said:

But it is, and that's why FFVI is popular here in the West. A lot of the reason has to do with the dialogue itself. It is witty and funny as it is poignant and serious. Please tell me that the scene with Rachel saying goodbye to Locke wasn't well written...please.

Compare FFVI with FFVII's localization. FFVII's is FAR worse, so is VIII. Compare FFXIII trilogy script with VI. be thankful for what you got.

A couple well written scenes don't make up for the entire game, come on. I still think FF6 is easily the best written FF game but let's not act like the game isn't littered with tons of text they just fits together awkwardly. It needs a remake and an update to the script. FF7 is a mess in writing as well, it's just not fresh in my mind because I played it like 7-8 years ago vs FF6 being a few months ago. FF8 is literally a piece of shit in terms of writing, characterization and plot. I dunno what the fuck happened there. I don't even wanna touch 13.

Without this thread turning into us going back in forth forever, in term of what I actually think of FF6, it's SE most complete FF in terms of a narrative, freedom mixed with a good underlying gameplay system. I think FF7 is SE most complete package as an RPG that I've played. I think Chrono Trigger is there most polished game and Vagrant story is their best piece of writing.

#36 Edited by uninspiredcup (12263 posts) -

Western RPG's have always been better. Even Final Fantasy 7 " the best rpg ever" pc gamers played superior titles like Baldurs Gate. The truth of the matter, it has never been good beyond the two MMO's. This is something animoo fans need to accept. The repetitive crying of "oh it use to be good" got old almost 10 years ago.

#37 Edited by texasgoldrush (9422 posts) -

@ActicEdge said:

@texasgoldrush said:

You simply are not getting that he is an ideologue and that his actions fit the motive. His actions match his beliefs, especially in the World of Ruin. Nevermind he finds enjoyment in killing people and destroying things, so what makes you think he wouldn't kill himself after he is done with everything?

The only way a person can do evil for the sake of evil, if he knows its evil and he does it because its evil, usually parody characters or characters in comedy. Kefka is not this. He does his deeds because not only that he enjoys them, but for ideological reasons and to seek power.

I'm not misunderstanding anything, he just isn't a good character imo. There is nothing driving his motivations besides just doing evil shit because he like to hurt people and a greater desire for power. Snore, this is give or take what all the FF villains are about. If you really want to put forth Kefka has some divine and amazing ideology (he doesn't), give me some examples. He literally just does a whole bunch of evil shit ie Poisons drinking water because yo I'm evil, destroys towns because yo they resisted that I'm awesome, betrays emperor because yo, wide open chance to become more powerful because of really lame reasons. Nothing about him was entertaining or thought provoking. He's just a crazy villain, meh, big deal.

Kefka poisons Doma not only because he enjoyed murdering people, but to end the war quicker. While enjoying the misdeed, he took advantage of an enemies weakness and ended the war, nevermind improving his standing in the Empire. This action wasn;t evil for the "sake of evil". Remember honorable Leo was having trouble taking Doma.

Kefka has Terra kill his soldiers with Magitek, not just because he enjoys the killing, but to test the Empire's new weapon.

Kefka kills Leo not because he enjoyed it, he killed him because he is trying to stop him from slaughtering the Espers, which Kefka also enjoyed, but the real reason is he needed their power and magicite.

Kefka did not just do thinks for the "sake of evil", he did them to further his goals while he enjoyed the actions at the same time. In the World of Balance, his motives are the same as Gestahl's, except for his plans after he obtains power.

You seriously do not get "chaotic evil" characters at all. While insane and love doing evil, they do have their motives, which are disturbing to most people. This makes the frightening villains and good antithesis to heroes and heroines.This is why The Joker is such a popular villain. He is the perfect contrast to Batman, more so than other villains with more fleshed out and less insane motives. Carnage from Spider Man, another example, whose motives and beliefs are very similar to Kefka. Kefka is the perfect antithesis to the entire party and in the end what they believe. This and along with how he brings their ordeal in the first place makes him one of the most popular villains in gaming.

#38 Edited by texasgoldrush (9422 posts) -

This quote from Kitase needs to be shared if people haven't heard it already.

“In those days we didn’t have the Internet and, as a more junior staff member, I wasn’t given the opportunity to venture overseas – so I wasn’t really aware of the reception the game received outside of Japan,”

“However, in more recent years, I’ve regularly tagged along on PR tours to Europe and America – and I have had a lot more opportunity to talk with foreign media and fans. I must say, whenever I go on these tours I’m taken aback by the number of westerners who ask me to sign their Final Fantasy VI cases. In Japan that would apply more to the subsequent game, Final Fantasy VII, but I get the impression there’s a large number of players in the West who prefer the earlier game.”

http://www.edge-online.com/features/the-making-of-final-fantasy-vi/

#39 Posted by intotheminx (866 posts) -

I feel like VII-IX were infinitely better than VI, which is why they aren't wasting their time. With that said, I still prefer VI over anything after IX. It's a travesty what has happened to my beloved franchise.

#40 Posted by MlauTheDaft (4399 posts) -
@texasgoldrush said:

even some scenes in Mass Effect Trilogy have some poor direction

Lol, I could'nt get past that sentence ;)

The Mass Effect trilogy has A LOT of bad directing.

#41 Posted by Seabas989 (10892 posts) -

FFIX was better.

Still 1994 was an awesome year.

#42 Edited by texasgoldrush (9422 posts) -

@intotheminx said:

I feel like VII-IX were infinitely better than VI, which is why they aren't wasting their time. With that said, I still prefer VI over anything after IX. It's a travesty what has happened to my beloved franchise.

How?

VII is basically a rip off of VI, and the game isn't as coherently directed as VI, nevermind the worse localization. In trying to one up VI, its a lesser game than VI. VIII is not even close, the battle system sucks and the story falls apart at the end because it is so convoluted. And Sorry, IX is also a lesser game, the cast is great, don't get me wrong, but once again, the story pulls heavily from FFVI's playbook and it too has some bad direction moments...ex. Necron. VI has none of this.

The debate is over, VI is the best. If you want to debate the second best FF, go on ahead. Its wide open.

@MlauTheDaft said:
@texasgoldrush said:

even some scenes in Mass Effect Trilogy have some poor direction

Lol, I could'nt get past that sentence ;)

The Mass Effect trilogy has A LOT of bad directing.

No it doesn't....it is a prime example of great direction 90% of the time. That's why its considered one of, if not the, best new IPs of the generation. And most of the direction problems come from Mass Effect 2's main storyline.

#43 Edited by Gue1 (11178 posts) -

@texasgoldrush said:

@intotheminx said:

I feel like VII-IX were infinitely better than VI, which is why they aren't wasting their time. With that said, I still prefer VI over anything after IX. It's a travesty what has happened to my beloved franchise.

How?

VII is basically a rip off of VI, and the game isn't as coherently directed as VI, nevermind the worse localization. In trying to one up VI, its a lesser game than VI. VIII is not even close, the battle system sucks and the story falls apart at the end because it is so convoluted. And Sorry, IX is also a lesser game, the cast is great, don't get me wrong, but once again, the story pulls heavily from FFVI's playbook and it too has some bad direction moments...ex. Necron. VI has none of this.

The debate is over, VI is the best. If you want to debate the second best FF, go on ahead. Its wide open.

because games are more than just a story, that's what is so good about them compared to books or a movies. Every single FF game after VI has way better gameplay, graphics and sound. FFVI has no sidequest that can hold a candle to the chocobo sidequest in FF7 or a boss as challenging as ruby that forces you to use every trick in the book to beat it including items, summons, magic, equipment and a nice strategy. The only thing FFVI has is a nice story and that is it because the game's actually extremely archaic and simplistic.

The only reason FFVI is regarded as the best is because of the time it came from but in reality each FF game offers something unique and that's why everybody has their favorite one. To some is VI to others VII and even XII. XIII is the only game in the series I truly wish it just disappeared.

#44 Edited by texasgoldrush (9422 posts) -

@Gue1 said:

@texasgoldrush said:

@intotheminx said:

I feel like VII-IX were infinitely better than VI, which is why they aren't wasting their time. With that said, I still prefer VI over anything after IX. It's a travesty what has happened to my beloved franchise.

How?

VII is basically a rip off of VI, and the game isn't as coherently directed as VI, nevermind the worse localization. In trying to one up VI, its a lesser game than VI. VIII is not even close, the battle system sucks and the story falls apart at the end because it is so convoluted. And Sorry, IX is also a lesser game, the cast is great, don't get me wrong, but once again, the story pulls heavily from FFVI's playbook and it too has some bad direction moments...ex. Necron. VI has none of this.

The debate is over, VI is the best. If you want to debate the second best FF, go on ahead. Its wide open.

because games are more than just a story, that's what is so good about them compared to books or a movie. Every single FF game after VI has way better gameplay and graphics in every sense of the word. FFVI has no sidequest that can hold a candle to the chocobo sidequest in FF7 or a boss as challenging as ruby that forces you to use every trick in the book to beat it including items, summons, magic, equipment and a nice strategy. The only thing FFVI has is a nice story and that is it.

Final Fantasy VI has plenty of side quests that are better than the grindfest of Chocobo racing, with BETTER CONNECTION TO THE NARRATIVE. that's FFVII's problem and why its lesser, because many of the side quests not only do not have a good connection to the narrative and actually it disrupts the pacing of the narrative. Its a detraction. While FFVI uses sidequests to build its narrative, FFVII detracts from it. They are diversions plain and simple.

You really do not get it....FFVI is the best because it is the best SUM of its parts. That's why its routinely no.1 on best Final Fantasy game lists. Yes, VII, IX, and X have better battle systems, but the games do not come together as well as VI overall

"The only reason FFVI is regarded as the best is because of the time it came from but in reality each FF game offers something unique and that's why everybody has their favorite one. To some is VI to others VII and even XII. XIII is the only game in the series I truly wish it just disappeared."

Wrong

It is regarded as the best of all time because it holds up today, more then its predecessors and successors.

#45 Edited by Gue1 (11178 posts) -

@uninspiredcup said:

Western RPG's have always been better. Even Final Fantasy 7 " the best rpg ever" pc gamers played superior titles like Baldurs Gate. The truth of the matter, it has never been good beyond the two MMO's. This is something animoo fans need to accept. The repetitive crying of "oh it use to be good" got old almost 10 years ago.

better maybe in content or scale but not in charm. wrpg's tend to base all their lore on already established fantasy elements from books and shit, which to me is boring, while jrpg's are ALWAYS by DEFAULT much more imaginative and unique and that's something NOBODY can argue.

Pokemon, Shin Megami Tensei, Final Fantasy are 3 series that are completely different from one and another even though they all are in the same genre. While you could compare Elder Scrolls, The Witcher and Dragon Age and not even be able to discern which one is which if you didn't already know beforehand. And all for the sake of being realistic, an aspect western gamers, American gamers in particular, are sickeningly obsessed with.

#46 Edited by texasgoldrush (9422 posts) -

@Gue1 said:

@uninspiredcup said:

Western RPG's have always been better. Even Final Fantasy 7 " the best rpg ever" pc gamers played superior titles like Baldurs Gate. The truth of the matter, it has never been good beyond the two MMO's. This is something animoo fans need to accept. The repetitive crying of "oh it use to be good" got old almost 10 years ago.

better maybe in content or scale but not in charm. wrpg's tend to base all their lore on already established fantasy elements from books and shit, which to me is boring, while jrpg's are ALWAYS by DEFAULT much more imaginative and unique and that's something NOBODY can argue.

Pokemon, Shin Megami Tensei, Final Fantasy are 3 series that are completely different from one and another even though they all are in the same genre. While you could compare Elder Scrolls, The Witcher and Dragon Age and not even be able to discern which one is which if you didn't already know beforehand. And all for the sake of being realistic, an aspect western gamers, American gamers in particular, are sickeningly obsessed with.

compare to say Fallout, Mass Effect, Jade Empire, Deus Ex, Arcanum, Planescape Torment.....you are cherry picking your argument.

#47 Edited by foxhound_fox (90516 posts) -

@Capitan_Kid said:

Noone gives a shit about FFVI when its far superior brother FFVII is around . Not to mention the other FFs that are quite better than it

#48 Posted by uninspiredcup (12263 posts) -

@Gue1 said:

@uninspiredcup said:

Western RPG's have always been better. Even Final Fantasy 7 " the best rpg ever" pc gamers played superior titles like Baldurs Gate. The truth of the matter, it has never been good beyond the two MMO's. This is something animoo fans need to accept. The repetitive crying of "oh it use to be good" got old almost 10 years ago.

better maybe in content or scale

Design. Story. Writing. Graphics.

Part of the reason titles such as Baldurs Gate and other speculator titles like Homeworld do not get thier due is simply because of the fact consoles are mainstream and accessible. A sad, sad fact.

Seeing the animoo fans run round going on about Metal Gear Solid "oh oh oh oh, movies" is an injustice when Homeworld at the time was vastly, vastly superior. Vastly. The media can also be blamed.

But hey, I really like Realm Reborn, it's actually pretty good. Surprising considering it's cross developed.

#49 Posted by Lulu_Lulu (18202 posts) -

I couldn't help but notice you left out the gameplay... And didn't it feature alot of reading texts ?

#50 Edited by musalala (2243 posts) -

@Vaasman said:

Lol TGR thread.

My sentiments exactly