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if you got a better system i'm all for thatst1kaHow about just making decisions based on what you think of the game, complimented by reading individual reviews, watching gameplay videos, discussing it on forums, and playing demos and rentals? I can usually tell whether or not I want a game long before it gets its first review.
[QUOTE="st1ka"]if you got a better system i'm all for thatcolecoavengerHow about just making decisions based on what you think of the game, complimented by reading individual reviews, watching gameplay videos, discussing it on forums, and playing demos and rentals? I can usually tell whether or not I want a game long before it gets its first review.
my problem with individual reviews is that most of the ones i read are pure rubish, either nitpicking on small things or ignoring on all of it's problems. Gameplay videos don't really help you on some genres either. There are no game rentals in my country. And demos are very VERY misleading. The only one i agree with is discussing it on forums, but it's not enough
so here's a list of what's not important in SW: Sales because quality =/= quantity Single reviews because they are only one person's opinion. Average people's opinion because they don't effect other people's opinions. Review averages because individual reviews have different standards. ................... tell me something, what IS important in SW? :|nintendo-4lifeCompanies going bankrupt, it seems :(
so here's a list of what's not important in SW: Sales because quality =/= quantity Single reviews because they are only one person's opinion. Average people's opinion because they don't effect other people's opinions. Review averages because individual reviews have different standards. ................... tell me something, what IS important in SW? :|nintendo-4life
the only thing, the TC's opinion =/= SWs opinion. the vast majority think that metacritic and GR are the best way to get reviews
Scores from different sources mean different things, but if all of those sources consistently review most games, then it is not completely inapplicable. Simply because two review scores mean different things doesn't mean that a comparison of averages that contains the two sources is an invalid means of comparison.thepwninatorSure it does, because how are you to even know what to take the average score as? If your score is made up of many smaller scores that mean different things, then the whole is invalid. Let's say that every source but one says a game is a 7/10, and that it's average. Another source also says it's average, but gives it a 5/10. The game then has an average score in the 60% range, which is "below average" on the scale of every source but one. So the majority decides that a 60-something % game is below average, even though everybody who reviewed the game decided that it was exactly average. The game's reputation is then presented as worse than what every single source wanted it to be.
You just said that most reviews are rubbish. So why would a collection of rubbish reviews be any better?my problem with individual reviews is that most of the ones i read are pure rubish, either nitpicking on small things or ignoring on all of it's problems. Gameplay videos don't really help you on some genres either. There are no game rentals in my country. And demos are very VERY misleading. The only one i agree with is discussing it on forums, but it's not enough
st1ka
I have the perfect solution to end review scores!
Every game should be required to have a demo out 2 weeks before release no exceptions! I think this would force developers to make much better games since most demos I play give me my fill of the game!
Demos help, but they aren't enough alone. I've played great demos that turned out to be crappy games and crappy demos that turned out to be great games. Each game needs to be looked at on an individual basis.I have the perfect solution to end review scores!
Every game should be required to have a demo out 2 weeks before release no exceptions! I think this would force developers to make much better games since most demos I play give me my fill of the game!
Gaming_Guru_Guy
[QUOTE="thepwninator"]Scores from different sources mean different things, but if all of those sources consistently review most games, then it is not completely inapplicable. Simply because two review scores mean different things doesn't mean that a comparison of averages that contains the two sources is an invalid means of comparison.colecoavengerSure it does, because how are you to even know what to take the average score as? If your score is made up of many smaller scores that mean different things, then the whole is invalid. Let's say that every source but one says a game is a 7/10, and that it's average. Another source also says it's average, but gives it a 5/10. The game then has an average score in the 60% range, which is "below average" on the scale of every source but one. So the majority decides that a 60-something % game is below average, even though everybody who reviewed the game decided that it was exactly average. The game's reputation is then presented as worse than what every single source wanted it to be. But if everyone gives every game that is perfectly average a score they deem to be average, then all of the average games will have the same mean review score, thus simply making the average lower than what most people consider the average to be, yet still making a consistent score for "average" games.
[QUOTE="colecoavenger"][QUOTE="thepwninator"]Scores from different sources mean different things, but if all of those sources consistently review most games, then it is not completely inapplicable. Simply because two review scores mean different things doesn't mean that a comparison of averages that contains the two sources is an invalid means of comparison.thepwninatorSure it does, because how are you to even know what to take the average score as? If your score is made up of many smaller scores that mean different things, then the whole is invalid. Let's say that every source but one says a game is a 7/10, and that it's average. Another source also says it's average, but gives it a 5/10. The game then has an average score in the 60% range, which is "below average" on the scale of every source but one. So the majority decides that a 60-something % game is below average, even though everybody who reviewed the game decided that it was exactly average. The game's reputation is then presented as worse than what every single source wanted it to be. But if everyone gives every game that is perfectly average a score they deem to be average, then all of the average games will have the same mean review score, thus simply making the average lower than what most people consider the average to be, yet still making a consistent score for "average" games. But what is actually the average and what each source labels as average are two different things. The majority of sources list 7 at "average". If most sources consider that true, then so do most gamers who read those sources. So if the average score is lower than that, it is perceived to be a below average game against the wishes of the people who reviewed it.
[QUOTE="st1ka"]You just said that most reviews are rubbish. So why would a collection of rubbish reviews be any better? in the end the nitpickers and enablers. The biased against and biased for end up cancelling each other out (to a certain degree)my problem with individual reviews is that most of the ones i read are pure rubish, either nitpicking on small things or ignoring on all of it's problems. Gameplay videos don't really help you on some genres either. There are no game rentals in my country. And demos are very VERY misleading. The only one i agree with is discussing it on forums, but it's not enough
colecoavenger
[QUOTE="st1ka"]if you got a better system i'm all for thatcolecoavengerHow about just making decisions based on what you think of the game, complimented by reading individual reviews, watching gameplay videos, discussing it on forums, and playing demos and rentals? I can usually tell whether or not I want a game long before it gets its first review. I think you're missing the entire purpose of review scores.
A person has a finite amount of time and money. If they were to buy every single video game that looked mildly interesting, they'd go broke, and end up with a bunch of crap.
If they took your approach, custom reserach every single game, they'd simply run out of time to play video games.
The point of review scores is for give an at a glance indicator whehter the game is worth a second look or not.
[QUOTE="CaseyWegner"]that's why we decided a long time ago to just use gamespot's scores.st1kahow long ago was that decision made?
many years ago.
that's why we decided a long time ago to just use gamespot's scores.CaseyWegnerI'm not suggesting a fundamental shift in the way System Wars forum users handle their little "ownage bets". I'm suggesting to people in general that Gamerankings is a flawed method of helping decide purchases and the general feeling about a game in the industry as a whole. Gamespot scoring a game a 6.5 is fine for Gamespot users, but if most other sources think the game is perfect then Gamespot is not an accurate representation of how editors in general feel about the game. And using Gamespot alone opens up a whole new can of worms. I realize that I'm on Gamespot's site, but to me the forum is separate from the editorial quality. Even before the Jeff Gerstmann scandal, Gamespot lost its credibility. Years before I registered, Gamespot caved in to pressure from whiney fans and changed the score of Shenmue without changing the text of the review. Once a source compromises its standards, it becomes obsolete. The Gerstmann scandal only compounds it, and I don't think we even need to go into that whole situation.
[QUOTE="CaseyWegner"][QUOTE="st1ka"] how long ago was that decision made?st1ka
many years ago.
was this decision voted by the users?it was. yes.
[QUOTE="st1ka"][QUOTE="CaseyWegner"]was this decision voted by the users?many years ago.
CaseyWegner
it was. yes.
So then decisions made by our predecessors are irreversible? Cannot the Supreme Court reverse a decision of a previous Court?I wish reviewers would stop giving it numeral scores, and just discuss their thoughts on the game. I don't believe there is a difference between 9.4 and 9.5.ZZsharpshooterI agree, but marketing gets in the way here. Publishers like putting "10/10 from IGN" on the cover of their games.
[QUOTE="CaseyWegner"][QUOTE="st1ka"] was this decision voted by the users?st1ka
it was. yes.
And percentage wise how many of those voters would you estimate that are still around these days?
i have no idea.
[QUOTE="CaseyWegner"][QUOTE="st1ka"]And percentage wise how many of those voters would you estimate that are still around these days?
st1ka
i have no idea.
would you say 30% is a fair number?if not what about 50%?
i have no idea.
[QUOTE="st1ka"][QUOTE="CaseyWegner"]i have no idea.
CaseyWegner
would you say 30% is a fair number?if not what about 50%?
i have no idea.
Fine, but am i right to assume that at least a certain number of users have left or have been banned? Am i also right to assume that over these "many years" new users have registered whose opinions may differ?
If you agree with this wouldn't you say it may be time to create a new referendum on this rule?
[QUOTE="ZZsharpshooter"]I wish reviewers would stop giving it numeral scores, and just discuss their thoughts on the game. I don't believe there is a difference between 9.4 and 9.5.colecoavengerI agree, but marketing gets in the way here. Publishers like putting "10/10 from IGN" on the cover of their games.
Ugh, what a mess.
[QUOTE="CaseyWegner"][QUOTE="st1ka"]would you say 30% is a fair number?if not what about 50%?
st1ka
i have no idea.
Fine, but am i right to assume that at least a certain number of users have left or have been banned? Am i also right to assume that over these "many years" new users have registered whose opinions may differ?
If you agree with this wouldn't you say it may be time to create a new referendum on this rule?
I agree. The time for such a referendum, IMO, has come.[QUOTE="st1ka"][QUOTE="CaseyWegner"]i have no idea.
thepwninator
Fine, but am i right to assume that at least a certain number of users have left or have been banned? Am i also right to assume that over these "many years" new users have registered whose opinions may differ?
If you agree with this wouldn't you say it may be time to create a new referendum on this rule?
I agree. The time for such a referendum, IMO, has come.i mean how hard could it be? sticky a thread with a poll for a week or so and after the dealine's passed just lock it. If this rule was created "many years" ago as casey said i think it only reinforces the idea that we need a new referendum
[QUOTE="thepwninator"] And I still stand by my emphasis on reference points. The games most people look at averages for are within the 75-95% range, and, because this is a (relatively) small frame of reference, most people compare those scores to those of other games they've played before.colecoavengerReview sources come and go all the time. They change their scales, go out of business, redesignate what a score means. New sources start up all time time, too. Just like Gamespot used to consider a 10 "perfect" but now it's "prime". So can you look at GTA IV the same way as Ocarina of Time? Your logic would only hold if every source reviewed the same games and kept the same standards throughout its existence. And I still maintain that followers of specific sites hold true to the scales of said sites. That's why people went nuts on Gamespot when EDGE gave Killzone a 7. And if a Gamespot user goes to Gamerankings and sees a game with a score that Gamespot defines as below average, that game isn't going to be treated fairly regardless of if it's close to the real world average.
1. In most expected probability distributions for a product like game reviews, a mean average from a sample of 30+ reviews is more likely to represent a proxy for how most people will react than a single review. This is because any single review could be an outlier.
2. Related to number 1, the aggregators also show you the individual components that made up the average. Therefore, it is relatively easy to spot the standard deviation and the general shape of the distribution. We do this intuitively without having to know anything about statistics just by scanning the scores, are they mostly the same with a few outliers...or are they all over the map?
3. Related to number 2, based upon your experience you can generally judge certain sites to be more or less reflective of your general standards. Therefore, you can focus on the 3,4,5 or whatever sites that you trust the most.
4. All the comments you have made about the potential shortcomings of an aggregate score also exist for any single site/score + more, BUT
5. The reasons/merits of why we stick with GS scores are 3 fold: this is GS and it enhances a sense of community, a single benchmark reduces the bickering (compared to the inevitable extra bickering if multiple benchmarks are used), a single benchmark triggers at a singular moment in time (when the review is posted).
[QUOTE="st1ka"]if you got a better system i'm all for thatcolecoavengerHow about just making decisions based on what you think of the game, complimented by reading individual reviews, watching gameplay videos, discussing it on forums, and playing demos and rentals? I can usually tell whether or not I want a game long before it gets its first review. How is that any different than doing exactly what you said but using an aggregate review site like Metacritic, which normalizes reviews (fixes the issue you bought up in your original post)?
[QUOTE="thepwninator"][QUOTE="st1ka"]I agree. The time for such a referendum, IMO, has come.Fine, but am i right to assume that at least a certain number of users have left or have been banned? Am i also right to assume that over these "many years" new users have registered whose opinions may differ?
If you agree with this wouldn't you say it may be time to create a new referendum on this rule?
st1ka
i mean how hard could it be? sticky a thread with a poll for a week or so and after the dealine's passed just lock it. If this rule was created "many years" ago as casey said i think it only reinforces the idea that we need a new referendum
aka "it's not working in our favor anymore so let's change it." that's what too much of it would be.
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