which game was the most revolutionary for its time?

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funsohng

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#151 funsohng
Member since 2005 • 29976 Posts

@Jag85 said:
@funsohng said:

@Jag85 said:

@funsohng said:

@Jag85: I don't think understand my point exactly. Being a movie is not revolutionary in gaming perspective.

Also, "investing in character" is not something I see as "interactive storytelling."

These are just two elements of the overall package (although it would be wrong to call FFVII a "movie", since it has more in common with books than with movies), along with the choices you make in dialogues along the way (even if they have very little influence on the main plot), the dating sim elements (determining who Cloud goes on a date with and various other dialogues), the dozens of interactive mini-game events that are part of the main story (taking the place of dialogues or cut-scenes), etc. These are interactive storytelling elements, since they require player interaction to progress the story.

It wasn't quite at the stage where dialogue choices determine how the main story unfolds, but it paved the way for later RPG attempts at interactive storytelling where dialogue choices play a bigger role in the main plot. For example, BioWare mentioned how their games were in some ways a response to FFVII's limited choices and how they wanted to make those choices actually matter in the main plot (although how well BioWare actually succeeded in this goal is debatable).

So how does that make it revolutionary? I don't understand.

You know what came out the same year as FF7? Fallout. Fallout, however, is not considered revolutionary in narrative gaming despite its far more sophisticated nonlinear storyline than FF7. Why? Because it's a spiritual remake of Wasteland (in fact, people complained Fallout wasn't as deep as Wasteland). When did Wasteland come out? 1987.

And now you are telling me FF7 is revolutionary in storytelling because it had interactivity? Seriously?

Did Fallout have cinematics? Or dating sim elements? Or interactive mini-games? Or memorable character relationships? Or a death scene that made people cry? Again, you're focusing too much on individual components and ignoring the overall package. It was the overall package of FFVII, taking elements from different genres and media, adding some new elements of its own, compiling all these elements into a single unique package, and telling a compelling story for its time, that made it revolutionary, like other revolutionary games that came before and after it.

  1. Again, cinematics. Half-assedly ripping off another medium's specialty isn't "revolutionary"
  2. "Overall package" may make a good game, but far from "revolutionary." Revolutionary, by its definition, has to redefine gaming. FF7 didn't even redefined its own series. Its combat system was still ATB!
  3. If ripping off stuff from other games constitutes a "revolutionary" game, you might just go ahead and call Uncharted revolutionary in the medium.
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Jag85

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#152 Jag85
Member since 2005 • 19516 Posts

@Cloud_imperium said:

@arkephonic:

Nope . MGS wasn't the first cinematic/voice acting games . Even the first Wing Commander had cutscenes back in 1988. WC 2 was the first game to use full voice acting back in 92. Wing Commander 3 had over 2 hours of cutscenes and had multiple endings and it was released in 94. Way before MGS.

If you want to go all the way back, then the first game with cut-scenes was Space Invaders Part II way back in 1979. FMV cut-scenes with full voice acting began appearing with laserdisc arcade games in 1983. And multiple endings also began appearing in the 80's. Cinematic games weren't a new idea, but there had been a number of failed attempts since the 80's through to the Sega CD games of the early 90's. Up until the late 90's, cinematic games were seen as a joke by most of the video game industry. It was the success of FFVII and then MGS that paved the way for the rise of cinematic AAA games. In the case of MGS, it hardly used much FMV cut-scenes, but most of the cut-scenes were generated by the in-game, real-time engine, like most cinematic AAA games today (although some AAA developers today still use FMV, like Naughty Dog and Square Enix).

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#153  Edited By Jag85
Member since 2005 • 19516 Posts

@funsohng said:

@Jag85 said:
@funsohng said:

@Jag85 said:

@funsohng said:

@Jag85: I don't think understand my point exactly. Being a movie is not revolutionary in gaming perspective.

Also, "investing in character" is not something I see as "interactive storytelling."

These are just two elements of the overall package (although it would be wrong to call FFVII a "movie", since it has more in common with books than with movies), along with the choices you make in dialogues along the way (even if they have very little influence on the main plot), the dating sim elements (determining who Cloud goes on a date with and various other dialogues), the dozens of interactive mini-game events that are part of the main story (taking the place of dialogues or cut-scenes), etc. These are interactive storytelling elements, since they require player interaction to progress the story.

It wasn't quite at the stage where dialogue choices determine how the main story unfolds, but it paved the way for later RPG attempts at interactive storytelling where dialogue choices play a bigger role in the main plot. For example, BioWare mentioned how their games were in some ways a response to FFVII's limited choices and how they wanted to make those choices actually matter in the main plot (although how well BioWare actually succeeded in this goal is debatable).

So how does that make it revolutionary? I don't understand.

You know what came out the same year as FF7? Fallout. Fallout, however, is not considered revolutionary in narrative gaming despite its far more sophisticated nonlinear storyline than FF7. Why? Because it's a spiritual remake of Wasteland (in fact, people complained Fallout wasn't as deep as Wasteland). When did Wasteland come out? 1987.

And now you are telling me FF7 is revolutionary in storytelling because it had interactivity? Seriously?

Did Fallout have cinematics? Or dating sim elements? Or interactive mini-games? Or memorable character relationships? Or a death scene that made people cry? Again, you're focusing too much on individual components and ignoring the overall package. It was the overall package of FFVII, taking elements from different genres and media, adding some new elements of its own, compiling all these elements into a single unique package, and telling a compelling story for its time, that made it revolutionary, like other revolutionary games that came before and after it.

  1. Again, cinematics. Half-assedly ripping off another medium's specialty isn't "revolutionary"
  2. "Overall package" may make a good game, but far from "revolutionary." Revolutionary, by its definition, has to redefine gaming. FF7 didn't even redefined its own series. Its combat system was still ATB!
  3. If ripping off stuff from other games constitutes a "revolutionary" game, you might just go ahead and call Uncharted revolutionary in the medium.

1. Every revolution borrows ideas from outside. For example, when movies "ripped-off" another medium's speciality (i.e. radio dramas) and created the talkie, that was revolutionary.

2. It redefined the video game industry, moving it away (for better or for worse) from traditional arcade-style gaming to cinematic AAA gaming, which is "revolutionary" by your own definition. But if you meant gameplay specifically, then it did "redefine" quite a few RPG mechanics. For example, the use of dozens of interactive mini-game events to tell a story (in other words, telling story through gameplay), the dating sim elements to determine relationships between characters (including a bromance option rarely ever seen before), the limit break mechanic, the fully customizable materia system, etc.

3. Your comparison makes no sense. Uncharted was doing things that other mainstream popular games within its own third-person action genre had already popularized, e.g. Resident Evil 4, Tomb Raider, Gears of War, etc.

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funsohng

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#154 funsohng
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@Jag85:

  1. Don't get me started on the whole cinematic gaming again...
  2. Comes back to my notion again. Cinematic games. Also, FF7 gameplay-wise is just so similar to older FF7 fundamentally. I just don't see how one can see it's revolutionary. Limit Breaks? Seriously?
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#155 ghostwarrior786
Member since 2005 • 5811 Posts

ok i agree with the people saying mgs1/ff7 was evolutionary rather than revolutionary. they did some nice tricks here and there
(like footprints in the snow and heavy story telling cinematics) but i wouldnt consider those revolutionary.

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#156 Eddie-Vedder
Member since 2003 • 7810 Posts

Half Life Metal Gear Solid and World of Warcraft were the games growing up that shocked me the most and felt the most revolutionary for their time.

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#157  Edited By Jag85
Member since 2005 • 19516 Posts

@funsohng said:

@Jag85:

  1. Don't get me started on the whole cinematic gaming again...
  2. Comes back to my notion again. Cinematic games. Also, FF7 gameplay-wise is just so similar to older FF7 fundamentally. I just don't see how one can see it's revolutionary. Limit Breaks? Seriously?

1. Like I already said, early talkies like The Jazz Singer just "ripped-off" radio dramas, therefore they are not "revolutionary" at all in film history, according your own logic. If cinematic gaming is not "revolutionary", then neither are talkie movies.

2. And what about "the use of dozens of interactive mini-game events to tell a story (in other words, telling story through gameplay)"? Or "the dating sim elements to determine relationships between characters (including a bromance option rarely ever seen before)"? Or "the fully customizable materia system"? The open world was also very large for its time, and the amount of sandbox-like activities you could do within it was almost unheard of back then. At the Gold Saucer, you could go to an arcade and play over a dozen different arcade games (again, almost unheard of back then), or go for a theme park ride and shoot stuff while riding it, or go to a theater and take part in a play, or go on a ride just to view the scenery, etc. At Fort Condor, you could go play one of the first ever examples of a tower-defense strategy game (which on its own was pretty revolutionary). At the Chocobo farm, you could raise chocobos and then race them at the Gold Saucer (also a pretty unique game for its time). You could go underwater and play a submarine simulator. Or go to the mountains for some snowboading (which was just as good as a full snowboarding game back then). And so on and so forth. And this was even before the first GTA came out, and even that didn't offer anywhere near as many activities as FFVII did (probably not until San Andreas). FFVII had plenty of innovations, in terms of story, gameplay, and production values. It was a revolutionary game for its time.

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#158 Flubbbs
Member since 2010 • 4968 Posts

Ultima Online.. it gave the MMORPG mainstream recognition and caused the genre to take off

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funsohng

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#159  Edited By funsohng
Member since 2005 • 29976 Posts

@Jag85 said:

@funsohng said:

@Jag85:

  1. Don't get me started on the whole cinematic gaming again...
  2. Comes back to my notion again. Cinematic games. Also, FF7 gameplay-wise is just so similar to older FF7 fundamentally. I just don't see how one can see it's revolutionary. Limit Breaks? Seriously?

1. Like I already said, early talkies like The Jazz Singer just "ripped-off" radio dramas, therefore they are not "revolutionary" at all in film history, according your own logic. If cinematic gaming is not "revolutionary", then neither are talkie movies.

2. And what about "the use of dozens of interactive mini-game events to tell a story (in other words, telling story through gameplay)"? Or "the dating sim elements to determine relationships between characters (including a bromance option rarely ever seen before)"? Or "the fully customizable materia system"? The open world was also very large for its time, and the amount of sandbox-like activities you could do within it was almost unheard of back then. At the Gold Saucer, you could go to an arcade and play over a dozen different arcade games (again, almost unheard of back then), or go for a theme park ride and shoot stuff while riding it, or go to a theater and take part in a play, or go on a ride just to view the scenery, etc. At Fort Condor, you could go play one of the first ever examples of a tower-defense strategy game (which on its own was pretty revolutionary). At the Chocobo farm, you could raise chocobos and then race them at the Gold Saucer (also a pretty unique game for its time). You could go underwater and play a submarine simulator. Or go to the mountains for some snowboading (which was just as good as a full snowboarding game back then). And so on and so forth. And this was even before the first GTA came out, and even that didn't offer anywhere near as many activities as FFVII did (probably not until San Andreas). FFVII had plenty of innovations, in terms of story, gameplay, and production values. It was a revolutionary game for its time.

  1. Advent of talkies was not "rip-off" of radio dramas, because synchronized sound is fundamentally different from sound-only dramas. The talkies were revolutionary not because it had spoken dialogues, but because it was synchronized, thus giving the medium depth. Cinematics in gaming however, is not. It's a makeshift measure because it goes against what medium is about--interactivity--and is ultimately side-step towards what narrative in gaming should strive for.
  2. I'm pretty sure more games before FF7 had mini-games to tell a story. Hell, they probably used not just mini-games but actualy gameplay itself to tell a story.
  3. Dating sim elements? Date-sims existed long before FF7, so I have no fucking clue why you are bringing date-sims up. If you are saying "oh it was integrated into JRPG" well JRPG is a bloody mixup of genres anyway so who gives a shit. As far as the date-sim elements impacting the narrative depth, it's shown much better in older narratives than FF7 which barely uses the element. And Sakura Taisen came out on 1996 which completely makes your argument on this front irrelevant.
  4. Open-world? I really hate Elder Scrolls, but I have to admit Daggerfall came out before FF7. Hell, didn't all the FFs before FF7 have a world map? Not to mention the open-worldness of FF7 barely impacted its narrative depth.
  5. Moreover, I am only arguing about FF7 not being revolutionary in narrative department, which was first suggested by Charizard. And **** that kid for just throwing it out there.
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#160 Seabas989
Member since 2009 • 13565 Posts
  • Pong
  • Street Fighter II
  • Super Mario 64
  • Wolfenstein 3D
  • Virtua Fighter
  • Quake
  • Tecmo Bowl
  • GTA III
  • Wii Sports
  • Tetris
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#161 chocolate1325
Member since 2006 • 33007 Posts

Super Mario 64 without doubt: Super Mario Bros might have revived the industry but Mario 64 added another dimension near flawless gameplay.

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#162 kipsta77
Member since 2012 • 1119 Posts

GTA 3

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#163 blue_hazy_basic  Moderator
Member since 2002 • 30854 Posts

Elite was mind blowing at the time. The sheer expanse of that game was like nothing seen before.

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#164 PAL360
Member since 2007 • 30570 Posts

Right from the top of my head:

Street Fighter 2

Doom

Super Mario 64

Halo CE

GTA3

Morrowind

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#165 Lucianu
Member since 2007 • 10347 Posts

A little necro, but ok.

Wizardry/Ultima - created & popularized the video RPG genre, heavily influenced JRPGs (Dragon Quest was inspired by Ultima), also put the foundation to many mechanics that have been standard to this day.

Ultima Online/Everquest Online - created & popularized the standard (graphical) MMORPG genre.

Wolfenstein 3D/Doom - one created a solid foundation for standard first person shooters, the other massively popularized it until a new genre was formed.

Street Fighter II/Virtua Fighter - one built upon its shitty prototype to create the standard 2D fighter, the other created the standard 3D fighter. Both massively influential, ofcourse.

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#166  Edited By Jag85
Member since 2005 • 19516 Posts

@funsohng said:

@Jag85 said:

@funsohng said:

@Jag85:

  1. Don't get me started on the whole cinematic gaming again...
  2. Comes back to my notion again. Cinematic games. Also, FF7 gameplay-wise is just so similar to older FF7 fundamentally. I just don't see how one can see it's revolutionary. Limit Breaks? Seriously?

1. Like I already said, early talkies like The Jazz Singer just "ripped-off" radio dramas, therefore they are not "revolutionary" at all in film history, according your own logic. If cinematic gaming is not "revolutionary", then neither are talkie movies.

2. And what about "the use of dozens of interactive mini-game events to tell a story (in other words, telling story through gameplay)"? Or "the dating sim elements to determine relationships between characters (including a bromance option rarely ever seen before)"? Or "the fully customizable materia system"? The open world was also very large for its time, and the amount of sandbox-like activities you could do within it was almost unheard of back then. At the Gold Saucer, you could go to an arcade and play over a dozen different arcade games (again, almost unheard of back then), or go for a theme park ride and shoot stuff while riding it, or go to a theater and take part in a play, or go on a ride just to view the scenery, etc. At Fort Condor, you could go play one of the first ever examples of a tower-defense strategy game (which on its own was pretty revolutionary). At the Chocobo farm, you could raise chocobos and then race them at the Gold Saucer (also a pretty unique game for its time). You could go underwater and play a submarine simulator. Or go to the mountains for some snowboading (which was just as good as a full snowboarding game back then). And so on and so forth. And this was even before the first GTA came out, and even that didn't offer anywhere near as many activities as FFVII did (probably not until San Andreas). FFVII had plenty of innovations, in terms of story, gameplay, and production values. It was a revolutionary game for its time.

  1. Advent of talkies was not "rip-off" of radio dramas, because synchronized sound is fundamentally different from sound-only dramas. The talkies were revolutionary not because it had spoken dialogues, but because it was synchronized, thus giving the medium depth. Cinematics in gaming however, is not. It's a makeshift measure because it goes against what medium is about--interactivity--and is ultimately side-step towards what narrative in gaming should strive for.
  2. I'm pretty sure more games before FF7 had mini-games to tell a story. Hell, they probably used not just mini-games but actualy gameplay itself to tell a story.
  3. Dating sim elements? Date-sims existed long before FF7, so I have no fucking clue why you are bringing date-sims up. If you are saying "oh it was integrated into JRPG" well JRPG is a bloody mixup of genres anyway so who gives a shit. As far as the date-sim elements impacting the narrative depth, it's shown much better in older narratives than FF7 which barely uses the element. And Sakura Taisen came out on 1996 which completely makes your argument on this front irrelevant.
  4. Open-world? I really hate Elder Scrolls, but I have to admit Daggerfall came out before FF7. Hell, didn't all the FFs before FF7 have a world map? Not to mention the open-worldness of FF7 barely impacted its narrative depth.
  5. Moreover, I am only arguing about FF7 not being revolutionary in narrative department, which was first suggested by Charizard. And **** that kid for just throwing it out there.

1. FF7 synchronised cinematics with gameplay. There are many moments where the cinematics are playing in the background while you're moving the characters. And that eventually led to modern AAA games synchronising cinematics with gameplay. According to your logic, that's as revolutionary as the advent of the talkie.

2. Can you even name any games that used mini-game events to tell a story before FF7? If not, then your point is meaningless.

3. While Sakura Wars released a few months before FF7, it didn't even release outside of Japan. Outside of Japan, it was FF7 that introduced dating sim elements to Western audiences.

4. While Daggerfall released a few months before FF7, its world was mostly randomly generated. And more importantly, FF7's world didn't feel empty, but it was packed full of activities and mini-games. The amount of activities and mini-games packed into FF7's world was almost unrivalled by open-world games until Shenmue or even San Andreas.

5. Actually, Charizard said FF7 "elevated" storytelling in gaming, not that it was "revolutionary" in the narrative department.