What makes people think FFXV and KH3 will save SquareEnix?

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#51 Edited by bbkkristian (14944 posts) -

@charizard1605: hell ya Square Enix needs saving. From themselves. They are so dumb they didn't localize Bravely Default, their own game.

#52 Posted by MBirdy88 (7698 posts) -

@cooolio said:

Never played any FF games, but in short, you are only mad because it does not have what you believe defines a FF game. That is your problem. Kingdom Hearts story has been dragged on a little bit. I only played 1 and 2 and just read the others. However, the story being terrible and trash is your own opinion. To me it captured that imaginative and fantasy like experience by using characters that appeal to my childhood. You have to admit that no one could guess the true story behind keyblade masters, the true nature of xemnas/xehanort, etc.

so fans do not have a right to complain when someone takes a franchise in a direction that violates the spirit of the franchise?

no, it sucks because instead of tying Disney characters with a Disney like storyline.....they tie everything with a wacky convoluted JRPG plot that simply is the complete opposite of Disney and their successful style, nevermind the horrendous dialogue that makes many direct to video sequels of classic or renaissance Disney movies look like masterpieces.

... they already did that with FF11, FF12, FF13 and FF14...

face up to facts.... 3 person turn based gameplay is stale.

#53 Posted by Zassimick (6342 posts) -

I don't think they'll "save" Square-Enix. I just know that I'm excited for both games.

@MBirdy88 said:

... they already did that with FF11, FF12, FF13 and FF14...

face up to facts.... 3 person turn based gameplay is stale.

Yum... Final Fantasy XII and Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn.

Yum indeed...

#54 Edited by inb4uall (5350 posts) -

loltexasgoldrushthread.

#55 Posted by Heil68 (43460 posts) -

Mass Effect 3's ending was a joke. And Bioshock Infinite's plot makes a lot more sense than whatever they tried to pull with Bioshock 2, and Minerva's Den.

Yup. Everyone knows how Biofail dropped the ball big time last gen.

#56 Posted by Krelian-co (10368 posts) -

Mass Effect 3's ending was a joke. And Bioshock Infinite's plot makes a lot more sense than whatever they tried to pull with Bioshock 2, and Minerva's Den.

too mean, even if it's texasbiodroneextraordinaire,

#57 Posted by magicalclick (22441 posts) -

Grinding grinding grinding. I doubt they will fix that. Thus, the game will fail. It was acceptable because it has nice story, level up, items, music, and etc. Unfortunately, all these features can be found in modern action games. Hack, CoD has level up, WTH.

#58 Posted by Yangire (8787 posts) -

KH was never really that big of a thing though after the first 2 games.

KH sells well enough to be the second largest franchise that SE has.

#59 Posted by MrXboxOne (742 posts) -

Because honestly, these games look like SquareEnix does not get it.

FFXV not only looks to go completely away from the series roots, it looks to rehash characters and art from past FF titles like FFVII. Really, a character looks like Cloud. Nevermind we have a poster boy broody emo JRPG protagonist. Looks like another off the rails storyline just like XIII and its sequels.

This may be the game to kill the series in the West...hell, it looks like it wasn't even made for the West, a bad move considering SquareEnix needs the West. Nevermind development hell, so look for a chopped up product.

As for Kingdom Hearts, really, I like Disney, but Kingdom Hearts sucks. Its a horrendous franchise all brought by a bunch of writers who really do not get why Disney movies work. Piss poor writing, convoluted wacky nonsensical plots that do not fit Disney at all, FF characters that do not mix with Disney (FFVII's especially), while ignoring FF characters that fit seamlessly (FFIV, FFVI, and especially FFIX), and complete rehashes of the plot of Disney films(Hunchback of Notre Dame for example in the 3ds game). Why do people actually like these games? If you look past the Disney characters, its a poor written series with average gameplay.

But nope, lets get excited for the next KHs, lets have the developers throw Frozen in there and completely miss the point on why that movie so popular.

Sorry, its hard to get behind the future of Square Enix. The great designers like Sakaguchi and Matsuno are gone, we are left with Toriyama and Nomura, who are killing the FF franchise and the company. And no, readjusting their focus isn't going to help. They need to get rid of their lead developers and have someone else reboot the Final Fantasy series, going back to its roots but with fresh new storytelling and scenario design.

Dumbass/Dumbasses.....

Final Fantasy XIV is saving SE.

#60 Posted by santoron (7690 posts) -

@texasgoldrush: Oh geez, you're back again. You're blind hatred of two titles you have literally seen almost nothing about has done more to make me excited for them than anything SE has put out.

#61 Edited by Randolph (10468 posts) -

They got their original fan base by doing their own thing, appealing to the west is what got them off track in the first place. We play Japanese made games for their unique Japanese flavor and sensibilities. If I want games that appeal directly to me as someone who lives in the West of the world, I'll buy games developed in the west. Anyhoo, FF14: ARR determines their future more so than either of those. FF11 made more money than any FF game before it, that's the cash cow that carries them into the future.

#62 Posted by texasgoldrush (9137 posts) -

@texasgoldrush said:

Because honestly, these games look like SquareEnix does not get it.

FFXV not only looks to go completely away from the series roots, it looks to rehash characters and art from past FF titles like FFVII. Really, a character looks like Cloud. Nevermind we have a poster boy broody emo JRPG protagonist. Looks like another off the rails storyline just like XIII and its sequels.

This may be the game to kill the series in the West...hell, it looks like it wasn't even made for the West, a bad move considering SquareEnix needs the West. Nevermind development hell, so look for a chopped up product.

As for Kingdom Hearts, really, I like Disney, but Kingdom Hearts sucks. Its a horrendous franchise all brought by a bunch of writers who really do not get why Disney movies work. Piss poor writing, convoluted wacky nonsensical plots that do not fit Disney at all, FF characters that do not mix with Disney (FFVII's especially), while ignoring FF characters that fit seamlessly (FFIV, FFVI, and especially FFIX), and complete rehashes of the plot of Disney films(Hunchback of Notre Dame for example in the 3ds game). Why do people actually like these games? If you look past the Disney characters, its a poor written series with average gameplay.

But nope, lets get excited for the next KHs, lets have the developers throw Frozen in there and completely miss the point on why that movie so popular.

Sorry, its hard to get behind the future of Square Enix. The great designers like Sakaguchi and Matsuno are gone, we are left with Toriyama and Nomura, who are killing the FF franchise and the company. And no, readjusting their focus isn't going to help. They need to get rid of their lead developers and have someone else reboot the Final Fantasy series, going back to its roots but with fresh new storytelling and scenario design.

Dumbass/Dumbasses.....

Final Fantasy XIV is saving SE.

money wise...maybe

but not creatively

@Randolph said:

They got their original fan base by doing their own thing, appealing to the west is what got them off track in the first place. We play Japanese made games for their unique Japanese flavor and sensibilities. If I want games that appeal directly to me as someone who lives in the West of the world, I'll buy games developed in the west. Anyhoo, FF14: ARR determines their future more so than either of those. FF11 made more money than any FF game before it, that's the cash cow that carries them into the future.

Actually, they got their fanbase by localizing in a way where it did appeal to the west. Really, FFI, FFIV, and FFVI were not just translated, they were westernized to speak to western sensibilities. Ted Woolsey has a lot to do with the success of FF in the states before VII.

SquareEnix simply does not understand why FFVI is so well regarded in the West, it comes as a shock to them.

#63 Posted by Ballroompirate (22555 posts) -

@Desmonic: still gonna fap over it lol. Been waiting for KH3 forever it seems, plus the FF series is dead to me atm.

#64 Posted by texasgoldrush (9137 posts) -

@Heil68 said:

@freedomfreak said:

Mass Effect 3's ending was a joke. And Bioshock Infinite's plot makes a lot more sense than whatever they tried to pull with Bioshock 2, and Minerva's Den.

Yup. Everyone knows how Biofail dropped the ball big time last gen.

so, making their most financially successful new IP that has influenced the industry is fail?....wow, you are dumb

#65 Edited by texasgoldrush (9137 posts) -

@santoron said:

@texasgoldrush: Oh geez, you're back again. You're blind hatred of two titles you have literally seen almost nothing about has done more to make me excited for them than anything SE has put out.

Nothing blind about it.......Nomura simply does not get why Disney properties work, that's why Kingdom hearts sucks. He throws Disney characters and situations into his stupid JRPG style plot and it simply does not work.

Nevermind Nomura single handedly lobbied for years to take Final Fantasy from its roots, and turn it into crap for otakus. Instead of Final fantasy being a "Disney-esque" fantasy fairy tale series....which the pinnacle of this style was FFIX (not best FF game, that goes to VI, but the game that shows what the series "is" the best).....we get Princess Robot Bubblegum set it neo Tokyo. Yuck.

#66 Posted by PsychoLemons (2042 posts) -

@Yangire said:
@TigerSuperman said:

KH was never really that big of a thing though after the first 2 games.

KH sells well enough to be the second largest franchise that SE has.

But the gap between the two franchises, in sales, is huge though.

#67 Posted by Yangire (8787 posts) -

@Yangire said:
@TigerSuperman said:

KH was never really that big of a thing though after the first 2 games.

KH sells well enough to be the second largest franchise that SE has.

But the gap between the two franchises, in sales, is huge though.

So? That doesn't magically make Kingdom Hearts not important to Square Enix.

#68 Posted by Spitfire-Six (501 posts) -

Square hasn't been the same since they merged. He is correct in stating that it was their attempt to whore their stories and characters and worlds to appear to the west. They didn't change their style to gain western fans they changed to compete with that other RPG that was destroying them at the time. Final Fantasy was originally titled because it was their last ditch effort to save their company. Once it got popular they made it a routine to produce over the top rpg's. When the western money caught wind of it thats when they were doomed. The spirit of the franchise is about an all or nothing over the top production. Its never been tied to simple things like a battle system.

#69 Edited by texasgoldrush (9137 posts) -

@spitfire-six said:

Square hasn't been the same since they merged. He is correct in stating that it was their attempt to whore their stories and characters and worlds to appear to the west. They didn't change their style to gain western fans they changed to compete with that other RPG that was destroying them at the time. Final Fantasy was originally titled because it was their last ditch effort to save their company. Once it got popular they made it a routine to produce over the top rpg's. When the western money caught wind of it thats when they were doomed. The spirit of the franchise is about an all or nothing over the top production. Its never been tied to simple things like a battle system.

No...anything, their stories and characters have become far more Japanese, especially characters designed by Nomura. The translators have been given less room to work as well. So basically while the stories have gotten far more Japanese (especially the FFXIII trilogy), they rip off Western gameplay ideas without really knowing WHY they work. Hell, FFXIII-2 tries to have a Mass effect conversation system at points. But the problem is that they really do not know why things work. While Mass Effect uses conversation wheels as a character development tool and to branch the plot, FFXIII-2 uses it for.......oh, just to use it, because Mass Effect is doing it.

This is the problem with SquareEnix these days over in Japan. they do not understand WHY things are great. They just force things hoping for the best. Both gameplay elements and story elements....they simply do not know what they are doing. They are making their stories far more Japanese, which puts off Western gamers, while making their gameplay more western without knowing how to do it, alienating fans from both sides of the Pacific. They become laughing stock.

And playing through Dream Drop Distance when it came out.....the Notre Dame section was so insulting I actually stopped playing. It was an atrocity that actually goes against the themes of that movie.

#70 Edited by Heil68 (43460 posts) -

@Heil68 said:

@freedomfreak said:

Mass Effect 3's ending was a joke. And Bioshock Infinite's plot makes a lot more sense than whatever they tried to pull with Bioshock 2, and Minerva's Den.

Yup. Everyone knows how Biofail dropped the ball big time last gen.

so, making their most financially successful new IP that has influenced the industry is fail?....wow, you are dumb

With that convoluted story and atrocious worst of gen ending that seems like they put no effort into? I guess, to each his own.

#71 Posted by blamix (192 posts) -

@texasgoldrush: yup forgot to mention the story, but it kinda looks good with noctis as a prince with stella being the enemies daughter

#72 Edited by Riverwolf007 (23506 posts) -

kh3 could save them, after all the squeenix logo is like a warning to stay away from the game at any cost not counting them publishing a western title.

kh3 would be the 1st j-dev project in forever i am even slightly interested in and i don't think i am alone in that.

#73 Posted by Netret0120 (2032 posts) -

KH was never really that big of a thing though after the first 2 games.

You forgot to add 'In my opinion'.

#74 Posted by Lionheart08 (15345 posts) -

@santoron said:

@texasgoldrush: Oh geez, you're back again. You're blind hatred of two titles you have literally seen almost nothing about has done more to make me excited for them than anything SE has put out.

Nothing blind about it.......Nomura simply does not get why Disney properties work, that's why Kingdom hearts sucks. He throws Disney characters and situations into his stupid JRPG style plot and it simply does not work.

Nevermind Nomura single handedly lobbied for years to take Final Fantasy from its roots, and turn it into crap for otakus. Instead of Final fantasy being a "Disney-esque" fantasy fairy tale series....which the pinnacle of this style was FFIX (not best FF game, that goes to VI, but the game that shows what the series "is" the best).....we get Princess Robot Bubblegum set it neo Tokyo. Yuck.

Right, because the character designer has had the absolute power and final say in every decision Square has made.

#75 Posted by flashn00b (2906 posts) -

Well, Square-Enix has been relying heavily on their western IPs for way too long IMHO. It's about time that Square-Enix released their major titles.

#76 Posted by santoron (7690 posts) -

Nothing blind about it.......Nomura simply does not get why Disney properties work, that's why Kingdom hearts sucks. He throws Disney characters and situations into his stupid JRPG style plot and it simply does not work.

Nevermind Nomura single handedly lobbied for years to take Final Fantasy from its roots, and turn it into crap for otakus. Instead of Final fantasy being a "Disney-esque" fantasy fairy tale series....which the pinnacle of this style was FFIX (not best FF game, that goes to VI, but the game that shows what the series "is" the best).....we get Princess Robot Bubblegum set it neo Tokyo. Yuck.

People enjoy the series. The games sell well, and any info on new iterations is highly sought after. It's doing something right. Your tastes are... unique, to be nice. SE would only need "Saving" if they started listening to you.

The whole Nomura/FF rant that follows... lol. Whatever. Learn to focus on the things you like, instead of the things you hate. You'll make more sense.

#77 Edited by texasgoldrush (9137 posts) -

@texasgoldrush said:

@santoron said:

@texasgoldrush: Oh geez, you're back again. You're blind hatred of two titles you have literally seen almost nothing about has done more to make me excited for them than anything SE has put out.

Nothing blind about it.......Nomura simply does not get why Disney properties work, that's why Kingdom hearts sucks. He throws Disney characters and situations into his stupid JRPG style plot and it simply does not work.

Nevermind Nomura single handedly lobbied for years to take Final Fantasy from its roots, and turn it into crap for otakus. Instead of Final fantasy being a "Disney-esque" fantasy fairy tale series....which the pinnacle of this style was FFIX (not best FF game, that goes to VI, but the game that shows what the series "is" the best).....we get Princess Robot Bubblegum set it neo Tokyo. Yuck.

Right, because the character designer has had the absolute power and final say in every decision Square has made.

But he is game director now, so he does have more power. He is the director for both XV and KH3

#78 Edited by texasgoldrush (9137 posts) -

@santoron said:

@texasgoldrush said:

Nothing blind about it.......Nomura simply does not get why Disney properties work, that's why Kingdom hearts sucks. He throws Disney characters and situations into his stupid JRPG style plot and it simply does not work.

Nevermind Nomura single handedly lobbied for years to take Final Fantasy from its roots, and turn it into crap for otakus. Instead of Final fantasy being a "Disney-esque" fantasy fairy tale series....which the pinnacle of this style was FFIX (not best FF game, that goes to VI, but the game that shows what the series "is" the best).....we get Princess Robot Bubblegum set it neo Tokyo. Yuck.

People enjoy the series. The games sell well, and any info on new iterations is highly sought after. It's doing something right. Your tastes are... unique, to be nice. SE would only need "Saving" if they started listening to you.

The whole Nomura/FF rant that follows... lol. Whatever. Learn to focus on the things you like, instead of the things you hate. You'll make more sense.

So SquareEnix would need "saving" if they go back to the values that made games like FFVI, Chrono Trigger, FF Tactics, and FFIX great?....are you this dense? Would you rather go back to those values, or keep making crap like FFXIII and its sequels?

But nope, lets make more otaku riddled Final Fantasy games with ridiculous plots, stupid uninteresting characters and horrible dialogue while their sales and review scores decline.

Nevermind speaking solely of Kingdom Hearts....it is a mess of a series, with not only many elements that CLASH with what Disney is about (or clash with its style of storytelling), its downright poorly written, even actually pissing on the classic Disney movies and what they are about. Hell, in Dream Drop Distance, they make Esmeralda, one of the smartest Disney heroines, into a complete moron.

Her intro to Sora; "Esmeralda, I am a gypsy".......wow, talk about idiot writing that actually pisses on what that character was about, nevermind being completely idiotic in general.

So a Disney/SquareEnix game that captures what Disney is about, and respects what they are, without adding pompous convoluted crap that doesn't belong...why would fans object to that? Yes, they do need to listen to people like me.

#79 Posted by GreySeal9 (24055 posts) -

@santoron said:

@texasgoldrush: Oh geez, you're back again. You're blind hatred of two titles you have literally seen almost nothing about has done more to make me excited for them than anything SE has put out.

It really comes down to cultural bias with that idiot.

Still, FFXV does look pretty uninspired IMO.

#80 Posted by texasgoldrush (9137 posts) -

@santoron said:

@texasgoldrush: Oh geez, you're back again. You're blind hatred of two titles you have literally seen almost nothing about has done more to make me excited for them than anything SE has put out.

It really comes down to cultural bias with that idiot.

Still, FFXV does look pretty uninspired IMO.

No, if I want to play a game with modern Japanese culture, I would play Persona or TWEWY. And really, Okami is one of my favorite games, you can't get more Japanese than that.

Not forced on me with Final Fantasy because the designers do not know how to reach a global audience, or don't care OR have Japanese modern cultural elements outright clash with Western elements like Kingdom Hearts does.

Face facts here, the West doesn't get or laughs at modern Japanese culture norms.

#81 Posted by The_Merc98 (11 posts) -

@texasgoldrush: Someone is mad lol

Dude your opinion does not matter, there is no fact whatsoever that your opinion on whether FF15 or KH3 will fail. Both games in my opinion look kick ass! I'm a Kingdom hearts fan and I've loved their series ever since. As for FF15 I'm getting the game because of the new battle mechanics and I loved the final fantasy stories. Again it is my opinion and I believe the games will be a hit.

But if they turn out to suck then that will be very unfortunate.

Don't need to hate on a game you've never play brah

#82 Edited by GreySeal9 (24055 posts) -

@texasgoldrush said:

@GreySeal9 said:

@santoron said:

@texasgoldrush: Oh geez, you're back again. You're blind hatred of two titles you have literally seen almost nothing about has done more to make me excited for them than anything SE has put out.

It really comes down to cultural bias with that idiot.

Still, FFXV does look pretty uninspired IMO.

No, if I want to play a game with modern Japanese culture, I would play Persona or TWEWY. And really, Okami is one of my favorite games, you can't get more Japanese than that.

Not forced on me with Final Fantasy because the designers do not know how to reach a global audience, or don't care OR have Japanese modern cultural elements outright clash with Western elements like Kingdom Hearts does.

Face facts here, the West doesn't get or laughs at modern Japanese culture norms.

lol. Some of the most successful games in the series used anime-esque character designs or otherwise Japanese aesthetics. Final Fantasy 7 anyone? Final Fantasy 8? Final Fantasy 10?

Your cultural bias is blinding you.

#83 Edited by texasgoldrush (9137 posts) -

@texasgoldrush said:

@GreySeal9 said:

@santoron said:

@texasgoldrush: Oh geez, you're back again. You're blind hatred of two titles you have literally seen almost nothing about has done more to make me excited for them than anything SE has put out.

It really comes down to cultural bias with that idiot.

Still, FFXV does look pretty uninspired IMO.

No, if I want to play a game with modern Japanese culture, I would play Persona or TWEWY. And really, Okami is one of my favorite games, you can't get more Japanese than that.

Not forced on me with Final Fantasy because the designers do not know how to reach a global audience, or don't care OR have Japanese modern cultural elements outright clash with Western elements like Kingdom Hearts does.

Face facts here, the West doesn't get or laughs at modern Japanese culture norms.

lol. Some of the most successful games in the series used anime-esque character designs or otherwise Japanese aesthetics. Final Fantasy 7 anyone? Final Fantasy 8? Final Fantasy 10?

Your cultural bias is blinding you.

different era.....now days Japanese aesthetics are looked at more negatively. Nevermind FFVII, VIII, and X have their backlash.

#84 Posted by texasgoldrush (9137 posts) -

@texasgoldrush: Someone is mad lol

Dude your opinion does not matter, there is no fact whatsoever that your opinion on whether FF15 or KH3 will fail. Both games in my opinion look kick ass! I'm a Kingdom hearts fan and I've loved their series ever since. As for FF15 I'm getting the game because of the new battle mechanics and I loved the final fantasy stories. Again it is my opinion and I believe the games will be a hit.

But if they turn out to suck then that will be very unfortunate.

Don't need to hate on a game you've never play brah

I am pretty sure that the next Kingdom Hearts will golden shower more Disney properties, like the other games have.

#85 Posted by GreySeal9 (24055 posts) -

@GreySeal9 said:

@texasgoldrush said:

@GreySeal9 said:

@santoron said:

@texasgoldrush: Oh geez, you're back again. You're blind hatred of two titles you have literally seen almost nothing about has done more to make me excited for them than anything SE has put out.

It really comes down to cultural bias with that idiot.

Still, FFXV does look pretty uninspired IMO.

No, if I want to play a game with modern Japanese culture, I would play Persona or TWEWY. And really, Okami is one of my favorite games, you can't get more Japanese than that.

Not forced on me with Final Fantasy because the designers do not know how to reach a global audience, or don't care OR have Japanese modern cultural elements outright clash with Western elements like Kingdom Hearts does.

Face facts here, the West doesn't get or laughs at modern Japanese culture norms.

lol. Some of the most successful games in the series used anime-esque character designs or otherwise Japanese aesthetics. Final Fantasy 7 anyone? Final Fantasy 8? Final Fantasy 10?

Your cultural bias is blinding you.

different era.....now days Japanese aesthetics are looked at more negatively. Nevermind FFVII, VIII, and X have their backlash.

Lots of things have detractors. Doesn't change the fact that those are three of the most commercially successful games in the series and with the exception of VIII, are some of the most beloved. The reason for VIII's backlash is not its Japaneseness but rather its gameplay elements.

Do you have any evidence at all that its the "Japaneseness" of the series that is lead to its sales decline?

Also, keep in mind that FFXIII sold very well.

And yes, it's true that Japanese aesthetics are looked at with less favor nowadays, but that doesn't mean that Japanese aesthetics are leading to Squaresoft's creative decline. When someone plays a Final Fantasy game, they expect something in the way of Japanese aesthetics. For instance, I don't play a Final Fantasy game to get something that looks like Dragon Age.

#86 Edited by texasgoldrush (9137 posts) -

@

@GreySeal9 said:

@texasgoldrush said:

@GreySeal9 said:

@texasgoldrush said:

@GreySeal9 said:

@santoron said:

@texasgoldrush: Oh geez, you're back again. You're blind hatred of two titles you have literally seen almost nothing about has done more to make me excited for them than anything SE has put out.

It really comes down to cultural bias with that idiot.

Still, FFXV does look pretty uninspired IMO.

No, if I want to play a game with modern Japanese culture, I would play Persona or TWEWY. And really, Okami is one of my favorite games, you can't get more Japanese than that.

Not forced on me with Final Fantasy because the designers do not know how to reach a global audience, or don't care OR have Japanese modern cultural elements outright clash with Western elements like Kingdom Hearts does.

Face facts here, the West doesn't get or laughs at modern Japanese culture norms.

lol. Some of the most successful games in the series used anime-esque character designs or otherwise Japanese aesthetics. Final Fantasy 7 anyone? Final Fantasy 8? Final Fantasy 10?

Your cultural bias is blinding you.

different era.....now days Japanese aesthetics are looked at more negatively. Nevermind FFVII, VIII, and X have their backlash.

Lots of things have detractors. Doesn't change the fact that those are three of the most commercially successful games in the series and with the exception of VIII, are some of the most beloved. The reason for VIII's backlash is not its Japaneseness but rather its gameplay elements.

Do you have any evidence at all that its the "Japaneseness" of the series that is lead to its sales decline?

Also, keep in mind that FFXIII sold very well.

And yes, it's true that Japanese aesthetics are looked at with less favor nowadays, but that doesn't mean that Japanese aesthetics are leading to Squaresoft's creative decline. When someone plays a Final Fantasy game, they expect something in the way of Japanese aesthetics. For instance, I don't play a Final Fantasy game to get something that looks like Dragon Age.

However, even if they are commercially successful doesn't mean they are not reviled. FFVII can be blamed in the long run for the decline of the genre, leading designers to focus on FMV's and technology more than storytelling. Hell, Gamespot even had a feature explaining this.

But getting to X-2, and XIII's trilogy....easily I believe that the Japaneseness has hurt peoples perceptions of those games in the west. So yes, the Japaneseness has been one element that lead to the decline of the company.

And really, you are ignoring the fact that many classic JRPGs are in fact Westernized by Ted Woolsey and other translators. FFVI, Secret of Mana, and Chrono Trigger for examples. You think the portrayal of Kefka in the Western versions of FFVI is Japanese? No. And the way Kefka's dialogue was translated makes him even more of a popular character.

This is why FFVI, FFIX, and FF Tactics do not have the backlash that VII, VIII, and X have. Translation and the story elements has a lot to do with it. FFVI was Westernized, FF Tactics had more western storytelling elements and influences, and FFIX went back to the series roots beloved my old school gamers in the West, and is Disney-esque in execution.

#87 Edited by GreySeal9 (24055 posts) -

@texasgoldrush said:

@

@GreySeal9 said:

@texasgoldrush said:

@GreySeal9 said:

@texasgoldrush said:

@GreySeal9 said:

@santoron said:

@texasgoldrush: Oh geez, you're back again. You're blind hatred of two titles you have literally seen almost nothing about has done more to make me excited for them than anything SE has put out.

It really comes down to cultural bias with that idiot.

Still, FFXV does look pretty uninspired IMO.

No, if I want to play a game with modern Japanese culture, I would play Persona or TWEWY. And really, Okami is one of my favorite games, you can't get more Japanese than that.

Not forced on me with Final Fantasy because the designers do not know how to reach a global audience, or don't care OR have Japanese modern cultural elements outright clash with Western elements like Kingdom Hearts does.

Face facts here, the West doesn't get or laughs at modern Japanese culture norms.

lol. Some of the most successful games in the series used anime-esque character designs or otherwise Japanese aesthetics. Final Fantasy 7 anyone? Final Fantasy 8? Final Fantasy 10?

Your cultural bias is blinding you.

different era.....now days Japanese aesthetics are looked at more negatively. Nevermind FFVII, VIII, and X have their backlash.

Lots of things have detractors. Doesn't change the fact that those are three of the most commercially successful games in the series and with the exception of VIII, are some of the most beloved. The reason for VIII's backlash is not its Japaneseness but rather its gameplay elements.

Do you have any evidence at all that its the "Japaneseness" of the series that is lead to its sales decline?

Also, keep in mind that FFXIII sold very well.

And yes, it's true that Japanese aesthetics are looked at with less favor nowadays, but that doesn't mean that Japanese aesthetics are leading to Squaresoft's creative decline. When someone plays a Final Fantasy game, they expect something in the way of Japanese aesthetics. For instance, I don't play a Final Fantasy game to get something that looks like Dragon Age.

However, even if they are commercially successful doesn't mean they are not reviled. FFVII can be blamed in the long run for the decline of the genre, leading designers to focus on FMV's and technology more than storytelling. Hell, Gamespot even had a feature explaining this.

But getting to X-2, and XIII's trilogy....easily I believe that the Japaneseness has hurt peoples perceptions of those games in the west.

And really, you are ignoring the fact that many classic JRPGs are in fact Westernized by Ted Woolsey and other translators. FFVI, Secret of Mana, and Chrono Trigger for examples. You think the portrayal of Kefka in the Western versions of FFVI is Japanese? No. And the way Kefka's dialogue was translated makes him even more of a popular character.

This is why FFVI, FFIX, and FF Tactics do not have the backlash that VII, VIII, and X have. Translation and the story elements has a lot to do with it. FFVI was Westernized, FF Tactics had more western storytelling elements and influences, and FFIX went back to the series roots beloved my old school gamers in the West, and is Disney-esque in execution.

You are delusional if you think FFVII is "reviled". Yes, it has its detractors, but in no way is it reviled. Get real. If it was reviled, people wouldn't keep asking for a remake. This is yet another case of someone trying to project their own feelings onto everyone else.

You say you believe that the Japaneseness of X-2 and XIII trilogy has hurt people's perceptions of those games, but do you have any evidence of this besides your own Western confirmation bias? Have you ever considered that maybe X-2 hurts perceptions because it wasn't tasteful rather than being Japanese? Have you ever considered that XIII's backlash had more to do with gameplay elements/XIII's particular story and cast?

Also, you keep up bringing up FFVI like it matters in this argument. It hardly takes away from the tremendous success of games like FFVII, VIII, and FFX.

Lastly, FFIX is my favorite game in the series, but it was one of the least successful games in the series. Not only that, but it has plenty of Japanese elements. Just look at Kuja for goodness sake.

#88 Edited by texasgoldrush (9137 posts) -

@GreySeal9 said:

@texasgoldrush said:

@

@GreySeal9 said:

@texasgoldrush said:

@GreySeal9 said:

@texasgoldrush said:

@GreySeal9 said:

@santoron said:

@texasgoldrush: Oh geez, you're back again. You're blind hatred of two titles you have literally seen almost nothing about has done more to make me excited for them than anything SE has put out.

It really comes down to cultural bias with that idiot.

Still, FFXV does look pretty uninspired IMO.

No, if I want to play a game with modern Japanese culture, I would play Persona or TWEWY. And really, Okami is one of my favorite games, you can't get more Japanese than that.

Not forced on me with Final Fantasy because the designers do not know how to reach a global audience, or don't care OR have Japanese modern cultural elements outright clash with Western elements like Kingdom Hearts does.

Face facts here, the West doesn't get or laughs at modern Japanese culture norms.

lol. Some of the most successful games in the series used anime-esque character designs or otherwise Japanese aesthetics. Final Fantasy 7 anyone? Final Fantasy 8? Final Fantasy 10?

Your cultural bias is blinding you.

different era.....now days Japanese aesthetics are looked at more negatively. Nevermind FFVII, VIII, and X have their backlash.

Lots of things have detractors. Doesn't change the fact that those are three of the most commercially successful games in the series and with the exception of VIII, are some of the most beloved. The reason for VIII's backlash is not its Japaneseness but rather its gameplay elements.

Do you have any evidence at all that its the "Japaneseness" of the series that is lead to its sales decline?

Also, keep in mind that FFXIII sold very well.

And yes, it's true that Japanese aesthetics are looked at with less favor nowadays, but that doesn't mean that Japanese aesthetics are leading to Squaresoft's creative decline. When someone plays a Final Fantasy game, they expect something in the way of Japanese aesthetics. For instance, I don't play a Final Fantasy game to get something that looks like Dragon Age.

However, even if they are commercially successful doesn't mean they are not reviled. FFVII can be blamed in the long run for the decline of the genre, leading designers to focus on FMV's and technology more than storytelling. Hell, Gamespot even had a feature explaining this.

But getting to X-2, and XIII's trilogy....easily I believe that the Japaneseness has hurt peoples perceptions of those games in the west.

And really, you are ignoring the fact that many classic JRPGs are in fact Westernized by Ted Woolsey and other translators. FFVI, Secret of Mana, and Chrono Trigger for examples. You think the portrayal of Kefka in the Western versions of FFVI is Japanese? No. And the way Kefka's dialogue was translated makes him even more of a popular character.

This is why FFVI, FFIX, and FF Tactics do not have the backlash that VII, VIII, and X have. Translation and the story elements has a lot to do with it. FFVI was Westernized, FF Tactics had more western storytelling elements and influences, and FFIX went back to the series roots beloved my old school gamers in the West, and is Disney-esque in execution.

You are delusional if you think FFVII is "reviled". Yes, it has its detractors, but in no way is it reviled. Get real. If it was reviled, people wouldn't keep asking for a remake. This is yet another case of someone trying to project their own feelings onto someone else.

You say you believe that the Japaneseness of X-2 and XIII trilogy has hurt people's perceptions of those games, but do you have any evidence of this besides your own Western confirmation bias?

Also, you keep up bringing up FFVI like it matters in this argument. It hardly takes away from the tremendous success of games like FFVII, VIII, and FFX.

Also, FFIX is my favorite game in the series, but it was one of the least successful games in the series and has plenty of Japanese elements. Just look at Kuja for goodness sake.

You are not getting it.....something can be both reviled and beloved. Its not either or. FFVII is both loved and hated.

For X-2, and XIII....you know, how the characters act, there mannerisms, etc. Nevermind X-2 opening with a J-pop esque song. Toriyama "Japanifies" even more than other SquareEnix developers. Those games are full of Japanese elements and mannerisms that Western gamers do not connect with.

You are forgetting the fact that IX was less successful because one reason was it was released at the end of the console cycle. Now days, it is a highly regarded FF both by critics and fans, and it was the dev fave.

Nevermind do not ignore the backlash for Vaan being a protagonist in FFXII, in which Basch was originally the protagonist. Nope, they made a move to cater to Japan and paid for it.

And really most JRPGs do have Japanese elements....that's not my point. My point is when these Japanese elements turn off Western gamers. that's when these problems start. And really Kuja does turn off a lot of western gamers.

#89 Edited by GreySeal9 (24055 posts) -

You are not getting it.....something can be both reviled and beloved. Its not either or. FFVII is both loved and hated.

For X-2, and XIII....you know, how the characters act, there mannerisms, etc. Nevermind X-2 opening with a J-pop esque song. Toriyama "Japanifies" even more than other SquareEnix developers.

You are forgetting the fact that IX was less successful because one reason was it was released at the end of the console cycle. Now days, it is a highly regarded FF both by critics and fans, and it was the dev fave.

And really most JRPGs go have Japanese elements....that's not my point. My point is when these Japanese elements turn off Western gamers. that's when these problems start. And really Kuja does turn off a lot of western gamers.

FFVII is relived by a vocal minority who doesn't like the direction the series went in, but is loved by the majority of the fanbase. It is not reviled in any significant way.

As I said in my edit, FFX-2's problem was that the Japanese elements were done in a way that was silly and not tasteful, which is why it is not liked in the way that the more serious FFX is. You are zeroing in on "Japaneseness" when there are plenty of ways that Japanese style can be presented and perceived.

FFIX is highly regarded and it was hurt by timing, but it simply cannot be used to demonstrate that its aesthetcs have more global appeal with those sales figures, especially against FFVII. FFVII was and has been more successful at appealing to gamers worldwide.

As for your last point, do you have any evidence that it is Japanese elements that have turned people off of FF? Because most of the criticism of the FF trilogy seems to come from people who LIKED FFVII, FFVIII, and FFX. Not to mention that FFXIII is not even Japanese in a way that is unpalatable to Western gamers. You're acting like SE has turned into NIS or something.

Your Western confirmation bias is preventing you from seeing this issue clearly.

#90 Posted by texasgoldrush (9137 posts) -

You are not getting it.....something can be both reviled and beloved. Its not either or. FFVII is both loved and hated.

For X-2, and XIII....you know, how the characters act, there mannerisms, etc. Nevermind X-2 opening with a J-pop esque song. Toriyama "Japanifies" even more than other SquareEnix developers.

You are forgetting the fact that IX was less successful because one reason was it was released at the end of the console cycle. Now days, it is a highly regarded FF both by critics and fans, and it was the dev fave.

And really most JRPGs go have Japanese elements....that's not my point. My point is when these Japanese elements turn off Western gamers. that's when these problems start. And really Kuja does turn off a lot of western gamers.

FFVII is relived by a vocal minority who doesn't like the direction the series went in, but is loved by the majority of the fanbase. It is not reviled in any significant way.

As I said in my edit, FFX-2's problem was that the Japanese elements were done in a way that was silly and not tasteful, which is why it is not liked in the way that the more serious FFX is. You are zeroing in on "Japaneseness" when there are plenty of ways that Japanese can be presented and perceived.

FFIX is highly regarded and it was hurt by timing, but it simply cannot be used to prove global appeal with those sales figures, especially against FFVII. FFVII was and has been more successful at appealing to gamers worldwide.

As for your last point, do you have any evidence that it is Japanese elements that have turned people off of FF? Because most of the criticism of the FF trilogy seems to come from people who LIKED FFVII, FFVIII, and FFX. Not to mention that FFXIII is not even Japanese in a way that is upalatable to Western gamers. You're acting like SE has turned into NIS or something.

Of course the hatred is a vocal minority, but so it is for Call of Duty. But that doesn't mean the backlash should not be ignored. And there are reasons why VI, IX, and Tactics have far less hate than VII, VIII, and X.

Also do not forget that X-2 has a different director than X, and Toriyama has shown to involve more modern Japanese culture elements. Yes, they may have been used in a way that they are tasteless, but that does not mean the fact that Japanese pop culture elements in general could turn of gamers here in the West and that Toriyama is not mindful of it.

This is the reality of the world. While people from another culture may get another's traditional culture, for the most they do NOT get another's everyday popular culture. You are ignoring this.

Square Enix has gone in the wrong direction on this. Instead of trying to branch out and incorporate other cultural norms, they look more and more inward to their own.....especially now with Nomura, who specializes in modern Japanese pop culture art, and Toriyama.

#91 Edited by GreySeal9 (24055 posts) -

@texasgoldrush said:

Of course the hatred is a vocal minority, but so it is for Call of Duty. But that doesn't mean the backlash should not be ignored. And there are reasons why VI, IX, and Tactics have far less hate than VII, VIII, and X.

Also do not forget that X-2 has a different director than X, and Toriyama has shown to involve more modern Japanese culture elements. Yes, they may have been used in a way that they are tasteless, but that does not mean the fact that Japanese pop culture elements in general could turn of gamers here in the West and that Toriyama is not mindful of it.

This is the reality of the world. While people from another culture may get another's traditional culture, for the most they do NOT get another's everyday popular culture. You are ignoring this.

Square Enix has gone in the wrong direction on this. Instead of trying to branch out and incorporate other cultural norms, they look more and more inward to their own.....especially now with Nomura, who specializes in modern Japanese pop culture art, and Toriyama.

I'm sure Western cultural bias has resulted in less hate for VI, IX, and Tactics than VII, VIII, and X (among other things). That doesn't mean that such bias says anything about quality or merit.

Also, even modern FF still has Western elements. I honestly don't get what you're expecting FF to look like. Do you think they should just completely emulate Western aesthetics?

#92 Edited by texasgoldrush (9137 posts) -

@GreySeal9 said:

@texasgoldrush said:

Of course the hatred is a vocal minority, but so it is for Call of Duty. But that doesn't mean the backlash should not be ignored. And there are reasons why VI, IX, and Tactics have far less hate than VII, VIII, and X.

Also do not forget that X-2 has a different director than X, and Toriyama has shown to involve more modern Japanese culture elements. Yes, they may have been used in a way that they are tasteless, but that does not mean the fact that Japanese pop culture elements in general could turn of gamers here in the West and that Toriyama is not mindful of it.

This is the reality of the world. While people from another culture may get another's traditional culture, for the most they do NOT get another's everyday popular culture. You are ignoring this.

Square Enix has gone in the wrong direction on this. Instead of trying to branch out and incorporate other cultural norms, they look more and more inward to their own.....especially now with Nomura, who specializes in modern Japanese pop culture art, and Toriyama.

I'm sure Western cultural bias has resulted in less hate for VI, IX, and Tactics than VII, VIII, and X (among other things). That doesn't mean that such bias says anything about quality or merit.

Also, even modern FF still has Western elements. I don't get what you're expecting FF to look like.

So, that's what happens when you have a global audience in mind and more international influences to storytelling. Yasumi Matsuno knew this.

How about, its roots? Or Ivalice?

#93 Posted by GreySeal9 (24055 posts) -

@GreySeal9 said:

@texasgoldrush said:

Of course the hatred is a vocal minority, but so it is for Call of Duty. But that doesn't mean the backlash should not be ignored. And there are reasons why VI, IX, and Tactics have far less hate than VII, VIII, and X.

Also do not forget that X-2 has a different director than X, and Toriyama has shown to involve more modern Japanese culture elements. Yes, they may have been used in a way that they are tasteless, but that does not mean the fact that Japanese pop culture elements in general could turn of gamers here in the West and that Toriyama is not mindful of it.

This is the reality of the world. While people from another culture may get another's traditional culture, for the most they do NOT get another's everyday popular culture. You are ignoring this.

Square Enix has gone in the wrong direction on this. Instead of trying to branch out and incorporate other cultural norms, they look more and more inward to their own.....especially now with Nomura, who specializes in modern Japanese pop culture art, and Toriyama.

I'm sure Western cultural bias has resulted in less hate for VI, IX, and Tactics than VII, VIII, and X (among other things). That doesn't mean that such bias says anything about quality or merit.

Also, even modern FF still has Western elements. I don't get what you're expecting FF to look like.

How about, its roots?

Been there, done that. Retreading old ground is not going to move the series forward.

Not to mention that pre-FFVII FF games were more generic in their art design. The most visually inventive games in the series were from the post-FFVI eras.

FF doesn't have a problem with aesthetics; the way it looks is praised for the most part. The problems are in other areas.

#94 Posted by GreySeal9 (24055 posts) -


Or Ivalice?

Are you kidding?

Ivalice has been done TWICE.

#95 Posted by texasgoldrush (9137 posts) -

Or Ivalice?

Are you kidding?

Ivalice has been done TWICE.

More than four times.....FF Tactics, Vagrant Story, FFT A, FFXII, to name of few.

#96 Posted by GreySeal9 (24055 posts) -

@GreySeal9 said:

Or Ivalice?

Are you kidding?

Ivalice has been done TWICE.

More than four times.....FF Tactics, Vagrant Story, FFT A, FFXII, to name of few.

Which is all the more reason not to do another FF game in Ivalice.

#97 Posted by Zidaneski (8451 posts) -

Square Enix needs saving? Lightning Returns is one of the funnest games I've played in a while, I put it up there with Borderlands 2. I don't really care much for Kingdom Hearts 3 cause I'm tired of Sora, BBS was great though it could have used a few more FF characters. FFXV will do very well though without a doubt, if it comes out. Even if it were to come out on PS3 it would still make a decent amount of money.

#98 Edited by texasgoldrush (9137 posts) -

@GreySeal9 said:

@texasgoldrush said:

@GreySeal9 said:

@texasgoldrush said:

Of course the hatred is a vocal minority, but so it is for Call of Duty. But that doesn't mean the backlash should not be ignored. And there are reasons why VI, IX, and Tactics have far less hate than VII, VIII, and X.

Also do not forget that X-2 has a different director than X, and Toriyama has shown to involve more modern Japanese culture elements. Yes, they may have been used in a way that they are tasteless, but that does not mean the fact that Japanese pop culture elements in general could turn of gamers here in the West and that Toriyama is not mindful of it.

This is the reality of the world. While people from another culture may get another's traditional culture, for the most they do NOT get another's everyday popular culture. You are ignoring this.

Square Enix has gone in the wrong direction on this. Instead of trying to branch out and incorporate other cultural norms, they look more and more inward to their own.....especially now with Nomura, who specializes in modern Japanese pop culture art, and Toriyama.

I'm sure Western cultural bias has resulted in less hate for VI, IX, and Tactics than VII, VIII, and X (among other things). That doesn't mean that such bias says anything about quality or merit.

Also, even modern FF still has Western elements. I don't get what you're expecting FF to look like.

How about, its roots?

Been there, done that. Retreading old ground is not going to move the series forward.

Not to mention that pre-FFVII FF games were more generic in their art design. The most visually inventive games in the series were from the post-FFVI eras.

FF doesn't have a problem with aesthetics; the way it looks is praised for the most part. The problems are in other areas.

FFIX goes back to its roots, but doesn't share the same art design as I-V.

Because you go back to your roots doesn't mean you retread old ground. You are making things mutually exclusive again. And really you can retread old ground with new settings as well.

#99 Posted by lamprey263 (23142 posts) -

Save them? I wasn't aware they were in any trouble.

#100 Edited by GreySeal9 (24055 posts) -

@texasgoldrush said:

@GreySeal9 said:

@texasgoldrush said:

@GreySeal9 said:

@texasgoldrush said:

Of course the hatred is a vocal minority, but so it is for Call of Duty. But that doesn't mean the backlash should not be ignored. And there are reasons why VI, IX, and Tactics have far less hate than VII, VIII, and X.

Also do not forget that X-2 has a different director than X, and Toriyama has shown to involve more modern Japanese culture elements. Yes, they may have been used in a way that they are tasteless, but that does not mean the fact that Japanese pop culture elements in general could turn of gamers here in the West and that Toriyama is not mindful of it.

This is the reality of the world. While people from another culture may get another's traditional culture, for the most they do NOT get another's everyday popular culture. You are ignoring this.

Square Enix has gone in the wrong direction on this. Instead of trying to branch out and incorporate other cultural norms, they look more and more inward to their own.....especially now with Nomura, who specializes in modern Japanese pop culture art, and Toriyama.

I'm sure Western cultural bias has resulted in less hate for VI, IX, and Tactics than VII, VIII, and X (among other things). That doesn't mean that such bias says anything about quality or merit.

Also, even modern FF still has Western elements. I don't get what you're expecting FF to look like.

How about, its roots?

Been there, done that. Retreading old ground is not going to move the series forward.

Not to mention that pre-FFVII FF games were more generic in their art design. The most visually inventive games in the series were from the post-FFVI eras.

FF doesn't have a problem with aesthetics; the way it looks is praised for the most part. The problems are in other areas.

FFIX goes back to its roots, but doesn't share the same art design as I-V.

Because you go back to your roots doesn't mean you retread old ground. You are making things mutually exclusive again. And really you can retread old ground with new settings as well.

FFIX doesn't so much go back to roots as it combines classic FF with modern FF (which I guess is going to roots in a sense, but a lot of the things it does is very modern FFish). But to do that kind of fusion again would be posse.

I'm not even against looking back to some of the design principles of earlier FFs, but I don't think you need more Westernization to achieve that, which is what your argument always comes back to.

If SE fixed all of FFXIII trilogy's issues, used Japanese aesthetics for the most part, and still the franchise was stuck in a rut, I'd give your argument more credence, but so far, FFXIII's problems seem to be its own rather than any symptoms of "Japaneseness", which is why many people are choosing to give FFXV a chance in spite of its very Japanese style.