Watch Dogs-PC screenshots look great,GTX bundle available.

#201 Posted by ArisShadows (22698 posts) -

Also reading on page 2..

DarksydePhil gots some competition, yo.

#204 Posted by MK-Professor (4010 posts) -

@scottpsfan14 said:
@MK-Professor said:

As I said Multiplats speak for themselves, obviously we can't compare PC exclusives or console exclusives becasue we need to make the comparison on the same game. The only overhead that came from directx are the drew calls and that is only affect the CPU and not the GPU. That is why similar spec GPU perform the same on pc and on consoles.

Direct X is different to GNL on PS4. As I have said, PS4 also has a DX11.2 like API called GNLX which current multiplats make use of. It has about the same control over the CPU as Mantle, and about the same control over the GPU as DX11.2. What you mean is the CPU overhead that Mantle fixes. However Mantle still does not offer the control that GNL offers on PS4. Just because it eliminated some overhead, does not mean that it offers more custom control of the hardware. GNL means that games can utilize every bit of the PS4. Including the GPU. You can not do this on PC because the hardware is always different, and needs a common denominator such as Direct X. This is how it's always been.

The only thing that is overhead on pc's are the drew calls that take more CPU power NOT GPU power, on the GPU side it have the same efficiency as console do. They have already reduced the CPU overhead in DX11 compared to DX9 but still not enough, DX12 should eliminete this, but then again it doesn't really matter as long your CPU is not bottlenecking your GPU is not going to affect the performance of your game. Bottom line is that a similar spec GPU perform the same on pc and on consoles, and that have been proven 100 times.

I had the same exact conservation back in 2006, and of course time prove me right. (A PC and a console that have a GPU with similar architecture and power will perform the same throughout the gen).

#206 Edited by MK-Professor (4010 posts) -

@scottpsfan14 said:

Hmm. You don't get what I'm saying do you? Mantle gives less overhead on the CPU part yes, but on the GPU side, there is not much difference. However, PS4 GNM offers custom access to all hardware components including CPU, GPU, unified memory, or any particular custom chip that is on the PS4 motherboard. GNM was designed for the PS4 only. Optimization algorithms in the game code for one set of hardware does not exist on PC games. And granted, a lot of multiplats on consoles do not utilize this, hence the similar performance to an equivalent PC. But if you look to exclusive games on consoles that do utilize GNM, you get games like Infamous SS that has a well animated 120,000 polygon character model, with fantastic particle effects on top of that, running in an open world game. This is impressive regardless of the games other graphical short comings.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-how-the-crew-was-ported-to-playstation-4

I posted this before but you obviously did not read it. This is Ubisoft explaining the PS4 and how they use their API's (GNM/GNMX).

"At the lowest level there's an API called GNM. That gives you nearly full control of the GPU. It gives you a lot of potential power and flexibility on how you program things"

"Most people start with the GNMX API which wraps around GNM and manages the more esoteric GPU details in a way that's a lot more familiar if you're used to platforms like D3D11. We started with the high-level one but eventually we moved to the low-level API because it suits our uses a little better," says O'Connor, explaining that while GNMX (Similar to DX11) is a lot simpler to work with, it removes much of the custom access to the PS4 GPU, and also incurs a significant CPU hit"

"The Crew uses a subset of the D3D11 feature-set, so that subset is for the most part easily portable to the PS4 API. But the PS4 is a console not a PC, so a lot of things that are done for you by D3D on PC - you have to do that yourself(In other words there is more control on PS4). It means there's more DIY to do but it gives you a hell of a lot more control over what you can do with the system."

Listen to Developers talk for once. You might learn something. But how can you learn if you know everything already.

Bottom line is, given that the developer gets the custom access to the hardware via GNM, that game will perform significantly better on the PS4 compared to an equivalent PC. FACT. But most developers of multiplats rarely get time to give special treatment to consoles so this results in similar performance to equivalent PC as you say. Need I say more? Really?

Infamous SS look like a game that a PC with a HD7850 could handle it at 30fps@1080p with no problem. Developers talk about less CPU hit nothing about less GPU hit. A HD7850(or equevelant) will always play games with similar graphics and performance like the ps4 do. It is always have been like that. Optimization is not only apply to consoles, like many console gamers like to think.

#208 Posted by Kinthalis (5340 posts) -

@MK-Professor said:

@scottpsfan14 said:

Hmm. You don't get what I'm saying do you? Mantle gives less overhead on the CPU part yes, but on the GPU side, there is not much difference. However, PS4 GNM offers custom access to all hardware components including CPU, GPU, unified memory, or any particular custom chip that is on the PS4 motherboard. GNM was designed for the PS4 only. Optimization algorithms in the game code for one set of hardware does not exist on PC games. And granted, a lot of multiplats on consoles do not utilize this, hence the similar performance to an equivalent PC. But if you look to exclusive games on consoles that do utilize GNM, you get games like Infamous SS that has a well animated 120,000 polygon character model, with fantastic particle effects on top of that, running in an open world game. This is impressive regardless of the games other graphical short comings.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-how-the-crew-was-ported-to-playstation-4

I posted this before but you obviously did not read it. This is Ubisoft explaining the PS4 and how they use their API's (GNM/GNMX).

"At the lowest level there's an API called GNM. That gives you nearly full control of the GPU. It gives you a lot of potential power and flexibility on how you program things"

"Most people start with the GNMX API which wraps around GNM and manages the more esoteric GPU details in a way that's a lot more familiar if you're used to platforms like D3D11. We started with the high-level one but eventually we moved to the low-level API because it suits our uses a little better," says O'Connor, explaining that while GNMX (Similar to DX11) is a lot simpler to work with, it removes much of the custom access to the PS4 GPU, and also incurs a significant CPU hit"

"The Crew uses a subset of the D3D11 feature-set, so that subset is for the most part easily portable to the PS4 API. But the PS4 is a console not a PC, so a lot of things that are done for you by D3D on PC - you have to do that yourself(In other words there is more control on PS4). It means there's more DIY to do but it gives you a hell of a lot more control over what you can do with the system."

Listen to Developers talk for once. You might learn something. But how can you learn if you know everything already.

Bottom line is, given that the developer gets the custom access to the hardware via GNM, that game will perform significantly better on the PS4 compared to an equivalent PC. FACT. But most developers of multiplats rarely get time to give special treatment to consoles so this results in similar performance to equivalent PC as you say. Need I say more? Really?

Infamous SS look like a game that a PC with a HD7850 could handle it at 30fps@1080p with no problem. Developers talk about less CPU hit nothing about less GPU hit. A HD7850(or equevelant) will always play games with similar graphics and performance like the ps4 do. It is always have been like that. Optimization is not only apply to consoles, like many console gamers like to think.

Exactly. Infamous can easily be handled at PS4 settings, byt equivalent PC hardware.

#210 Posted by NFJSupreme (5501 posts) -

@scottpsfan14: are you guys arguing about consoles outperforming similar specced pcs? If so this true and everyone knows this. Consoles outperform similar specced pcs. PCs with superior specs will always outperform consoles regardless of optimization. For example the ps4 is a little bit more powerful than a 7850 but not as powerful as a 7870 but performs on par with one. But the ps4 despite all the optimization in the world can't perform like a 7950 ot better. So yes optimization matters and consoles do get the most out of their parts but their is a limit.

#211 Posted by MK-Professor (4010 posts) -
@scottpsfan14 said:

Well then you are a confirmed idiot. I have explained but you think you know better than anyone including the Devs. You are wrong. So ignorant it is untrue. I tried explaining a very simple concept to you and you simply will not give in and you continue repeating your little opinion you concocted your self among other ignorant PC gamers. PS4 GNM IS MORE EFFICIENT THAN PC API'S. GET IT THROUGH YOUR THICK SKULL. READ THE FUCKING ARTICLE. This is from Digital Foundry, you know, the place PC gamers like to reference from all the time to prove points? You just do not understand what you are saying. You have made up your mind and you will probably never change your opinion even if a developer tells you to your face. You are one of these people who sees console optimization as a myth. You define who you are with your PC rig and no one can say anything to swing you. Well then I respect you have pride and don't want to be corrected, but I'm only trying to explain facts here. But you are wrong.

No need to resort to insults, I only try to explain to you that the overhead is only on the CPU and not on the GPU. Also have been proven 100 times (in the previous gen and this gen) that a similar spec GPU perform the same on pc and on consoles.

#214 Posted by NFJSupreme (5501 posts) -

@scottpsfan14: a huge performance boost for the ps4 in bf4 would probably equate to 1080p instead of 900p. I think that is where we will see optimization gains implemented this gen. More games hitting 1080p and 60fps on ps4 and more games simply hitting 1080p on xbone.

#215 Edited by MK-Professor (4010 posts) -
@scottpsfan14 said:

Because your only argument is for unoptimized multiplats. You go into absolutely no technical details what so ever because you don't know any, you just assume. Most multiplats do not get special treatment such as GNL coding, so they appear to perform like an equivalent PC. BUT, if it is utilized properly at low level, it will out perform equivalent hardware by quite a margin. A similar spec GPU only performs on par with PS4 if it does not get low level optimization. Get it?

My argument is not unoptimized multiplats but every game. I do not go to any technical details because as someone that know how to code in c++, DX9, DX11, HLSL I found it pointless to go on such details on a gaming forum and with someone that don't know about this staff. So your argument is that if a dev team spend more time on one version to optimize it will end up performing better? no shit... How about if the team spend equal time on both?, or if they spend more time with the pc version?

#218 Edited by MK-Professor (4010 posts) -
@scottpsfan14 said:

But that's the thing. The PC simply can't grant the access to the hardware like the PS4 can. This is why games can be better optimized in consoles. That is what that article was saying. Direct X can only take you so far. PS4 GNM can use peak performance on the GPU, and exclusives will achieve that in the years to come. Direct X does not allow peak performance to be hit because it does not have full control of the hardware. So if a dev spent more time on the PC version, Direct X would limit them severely, and there is lots of different hardware configurations on top of that to confuse things. You are deluded if you think PC's can be optimized in the same way consoles can.

You are deluded if you believe that you said.

On the GPU side that there is no overhead so it can to same like a console do. Lots of different hardware configurations are not an issuse that is why DirectX exist. If a dev spent more time optimize one version will end up will end up performing better no matter if it is pc or console.

#220 Edited by MK-Professor (4010 posts) -
@scottpsfan14 said:

Well you believe what you believe, and I will do the same. The fact that GNM grants low level access to the GPU alone means that it's more efficient. More control of the hardware means better optimization algorithms. I think you don't understand English very well based on your grammar. I don't think you have been taking in what I'm saying.

GNM will not make the GPU to perform better, the fact is that a similar power GPU will perform very similar on PC and consoles. Time will prove me right, as it did with last gen.

#221 Edited by Kinthalis (5340 posts) -

@scottpsfan14 said:
@MK-Professor said:

You are deluded if you believe that you said.

On the GPU side that there is no overhead so it can to same like a console do. Lots of different hardware configurations are not an issuse that is why DirectX exist. If a dev spent more time optimize one version will end up will end up performing better no matter if it is pc or console.

Well you believe what you believe, and I will do the same. The fact that GNM grants low level access to the GPU alone means that it's more efficient. More control of the hardware means better optimization algorithms. I think you don't understand English very well based on your grammar. I don't think you have been taking in what I'm saying.

I don't think you're in a position to be pointing out grammatical errors in other's posts.

You've also lost the argument if all you can do is call people idiots and turn to attacking people's post structure rather than trying to counter their points.

I don't even think you know what GCN is or what it means to engine development. Also, your assertion that multi-plats are unoptimized on consoles is also utterly ignorant, and more to the point - incorrect.

The bottom line is, regardless of the butthurt consolite fanboyism of some, that similar specced hardware on PC and consoles will perform similarly in modern game engines. DX12, Open GL + Extensions, DX 11.2, Mantle, all of these things allow the required access to GPU resources and cut down on the CPU overhead that was an issue with last generation 3D rendering pipelines on PC. Not only that, but modern PC's, even low end ones, sport CPU's 3, 4 times more powerful than current consoles, and that WILL translate to even better performance when dealing with CPU intensive tasks.

#224 Posted by Kinthalis (5340 posts) -

It's likely to improve the efficiency of the PS4 on certain tasks, in certain instances over something running an abstraciton API - the problem is that an entire game engine isn't made up of PURELY those tasks and those particular instances when optimization improves performance. Specially when using MODERN abstraction API's like DX11.2, DX12, Mantle, OpenGL + extensions, etc. It sounds like much of that article is tlaking about older abstraciton API's which we all know definitely lacked robustness and had issues with performance bottlenecks, especially on the CPU.

#226 Edited by MK-Professor (4010 posts) -

@scottpsfan14 said:

Time may well prove you right if a multiplat uses GNMX. GNM does allow for better access to all hardware components including GPU (meaning better optimization algorithms i.e, better performance compared to same powered PC).

A repeat from that former DF article.

"At the lowest level there's an API called GNM. That gives you nearly full control of the GPU. It gives you a lot of potential power and flexibility on how you program things"

"GNMX is a lot simpler to work with, it removes much of the custom access to the PS4 GPU, and also incurs a significant CPU hit." This is a similar API to DX11.

Do you really think that having less control of the GPU makes it perform the same as having the control? And you code in C++? How do you possibly come to that conclusion? Utilizing GNM is more work than GNMX or DX11, but it rewards you with more efficient, strategic code to suit one set of hardware. Which results in better performance. Simple as.

As for multiplats.

"The PS4's GPU is very programmable. There's a lot of power in there that we're just not using yet. So what we want to do are some PS4-specific things for our rendering but within reason - it's a cross-platform game so we can't do too much that's PS4-specific," he reveals.

This is why multiplats perform similar on PC's the same power, because devs can not give a console too much special treatment such as GNM low level coding. It would be too time consuming as it's a DIY process. Infamous SS uses GNM. You say that it looks like a game that could run on a 7850 easily, but that is simply just your speculation with absolutely no trained opinion. You are obviously not aware of Infamous SS graphical features.

And from this article from DF.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-inside-playstation-4

"In terms of rendering, there was some interesting news. Norden pointed out one of the principal weaknesses of DirectX 11 and OpenGL - they need to service a vast array of different hardware. The advantage of PlayStation 4 is that it's a fixed hardware platform, meaning that the specifics of the tech can be addressed directly.

"We can significantly enhance performance by bypassing a lot of the artificial DirectX limitations and bottlenecks that are imposed so DirectX can work across a wide range of hardware," he revealed.

"But on top of that Sony is also providing what it terms a "wrapper API" that more closely resembles the standard PC rendering APIs." (GNMX). PS4 multiplats that use this API may well not give much performance over a similar PC. But using GNM is another story.

"One of them (PS4 API's) is the absolute low-level API, you're talking directly to the hardware. It's used to draw the static RAM buffers and feed them directly to the GPU," Norden shared. "It's much, much lower level than you're used to with DirectX or OpenGL but it's not quite at the driver level. It's very similar if you've programmed PS3 or PS Vita, very similar to those graphics libraries." (GNM).

It is pretty much true that the PS4 exclusives will use GNM, and they will get better and better at it over the years. This is why Uncharted 1 is nowhere near as good looking as Uncharted 3 or The Last Of Us, because they learned the machine better.

Are you telling me that the low level access will not enhance the performance over the same powered PC? Do you really believe this?

The only real advatage that the GNM have over the DX11 is the low cost of drewcalls and that is only aftect the CPU. On the GPU side won't give you better perfomance despite the supposed "custom access", you know devs tend to lie when sony pay them. Also look at the past what happened, a similar spec GPU perform the same on pc and on consoles.

"It is pretty much true that the PS4 exclusives will use GNM, and they will get better and better at it over the years. This is why Uncharted 1 is nowhere near as good looking as Uncharted 3 or The Last Of Us, because they learned the machine better." And this is why GPU's(from 2006) play current games that even at low settings look better than games from 2006 at max settings, you see, same GPU but after some years it manage to play games with better graphics. Consoles doesn't run on fairy dust, optimization is done in both pc and consoles.

#227 Edited by donalbane (16382 posts) -

Just took advantage of this... got a GTX780 Super OC. It's really great playing Metro Last Light maxed out, and there Precision X software makes overcooking a breeze. It replaces my 580, which will make a fine Father's Day gift for my dad.

Didn't care for the Watch Dogs voucher process, though. You get if from UPlay, not Steam.

#228 Posted by lostrib (44556 posts) -

@donalbane said:

Just took advantage of this... got a GTX780 Super OC. It's really great playing Metro Last Light maxed out, and there Precision X software makes overcooking a breeze. It replaces my 580, which will make a fine Father's Day gift for my dad.

Didn't care for the Watch Dogs voucher process, though. You get if from Play, not Steam.

Even if you got it on Steam it would still require UPLAY

#229 Posted by donalbane (16382 posts) -

@lostrib said:

@donalbane said:

Just took advantage of this... got a GTX780 Super OC. It's really great playing Metro Last Light maxed out, and there Precision X software makes overcooking a breeze. It replaces my 580, which will make a fine Father's Day gift for my dad.

Didn't care for the Watch Dogs voucher process, though. You get if from Play, not Steam.

Even if you got it on Steam it would still require UPLAY

Yeah, I know, but the problem is that they won't send me the code until launch day. I trust Steam to have everything set up well in advance of launch - maybe even allow a pre-install. Uplay, not so much. Hell, they may not even mail the code on launch day, or not mail it until noon or something like that, which is unfortunate because I have the day off from work.

#230 Posted by SamiRDuran (2744 posts) -

@scottpsfan14 said:

@Kinthalis said:

@scottpsfan14 said:
@MK-Professor said:

You are deluded if you believe that you said.

On the GPU side that there is no overhead so it can to same like a console do. Lots of different hardware configurations are not an issuse that is why DirectX exist. If a dev spent more time optimize one version will end up will end up performing better no matter if it is pc or console.

Well you believe what you believe, and I will do the same. The fact that GNM grants low level access to the GPU alone means that it's more efficient. More control of the hardware means better optimization algorithms. I think you don't understand English very well based on your grammar. I don't think you have been taking in what I'm saying.

I don't think you're in a position to be pointing out grammatical errors in other's posts.

You've also lost the argument if all you can do is call people idiots and turn to attacking people's post structure rather than trying to counter their points.

I don't even think you know what GCN is or what it means to engine development. Also, your assertion that multi-plats are unoptimized on consoles is also utterly ignorant, and more to the point - incorrect.

The bottom line is, regardless of the butthurt consolite fanboyism of some, that similar specced hardware on PC and consoles will perform similarly in modern game engines. DX12, Open GL + Extensions, DX 11.2, Mantle, all of these things allow the required access to GPU resources and cut down on the CPU overhead that was an issue with last generation 3D rendering pipelines on PC. Not only that, but modern PC's, even low end ones, sport CPU's 3, 4 times more powerful than current consoles, and that WILL translate to even better performance when dealing with CPU intensive tasks.

You are just a parrot of MK. Listen, I have a gaming PC. I am in no way bias towards the consoles. You need to realize that PS4 has better access to the hardware than PC's. And games WILL perform better on PS4 than the same powered PC. ONLY IF it uses low level optimization that the GNM API allows. The main problem is that it's far more work to utilize that so most multiplats on the PS4 as of now are only utilizing GNMX, which is very similar to DX11.2. This is why the performance is not much different compared to a similar PC on those games. I was just frustrated that people were not understanding my point and I agree I probably should not call names. It's childish and I apologize for that. I am simply saying that no API on PC's can match the efficiency and access that GNM on PS4 has. It's that simple.

@scottpsfan14 said:
@MK-Professor said:

You are deluded if you believe that you said.

On the GPU side that there is no overhead so it can to same like a console do. Lots of different hardware configurations are not an issuse that is why DirectX exist. If a dev spent more time optimize one version will end up will end up performing better no matter if it is pc or console.

Well you believe what you believe, and I will do the same. The fact that GNM grants low level access to the GPU alone means that it's more efficient. More control of the hardware means better optimization algorithms. I think you don't understand English very well based on your grammar. I don't think you have been taking in what I'm saying.

MK is a developer he knows his staff you dont. not everyone can speak perfect english in fact most of the world dont give a crap about the english language.

#231 Posted by PimpHand_Gamer (749 posts) -

@napo_sp said:

those are bullshots...

Pointless in even mentioning, they fall for it every single time regardless.