VGleaks: World Exclusive Orbis Unveiled!

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#101 Posted by tormentos (17100 posts) -
This is the reason why some people have claim they are close. Orbis has 2 more CU than Durango,but also has 4 more CU for physics and many other stuff. ""This issue has been explained in this thread over and over and over again. This is a customization to make Orbis a monster in terms of compute. If you give any F*** about destructability, physics, animation blending/culling, lighting, or anti aliasing, you will want this to be as customized as possible. Those 4 CU's you just wrote off, are THE secret sauce. Go read it. Traditionally certain features / effects can cripple a GPU. Just look at how PhysX affects AMD cards. However, instead of letting that happen, Orbis has dedicated 4 CU's to make those certain features relatively painless and not as much of a burden. This is GPGPU or HSA."" In other words, this is a GOOD thing."" http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=47029526&postcount=2392 This is not something that paint good for Durango,while it seems Orbis is just marginally more powerful because it has 2 more CU,is actually allot more,when you take any physic and other effects and ad them top the equation which will handle by the extra 4CU... What this means.? Frames,AA,physics and several other will tent to favor Orbis specially if the game is physics intense,with many explosions and stuff like that,on 720 the physics could be run on the CPU to avoid hit performance,but you are eating CPU resources those the PS4 will be use for other purposes.
#102 Posted by CwlHeddwyn (5314 posts) -
Question is: if these specs are accurate finalised specs for PS4 &720 then what route are MS going down? The power advantage for the PS4 will be significant and I imagine 720 will struggle to compete when it becomes obvious to the average gamer. MS did well with the X360 because it could compete with the PS3 graphically due to the excellent combination of CPU, RAM and powerful GPU. Despite all of Sony's claims of being 2x as powerful the X360 held its own because you could see visually speaking the truth. so if these orbis and Durango specs are true then X360 will struggle to compete graphically.and PS4 could well dominate especially as it will have better looking multiples and better looking exclusives. The extra power could well encourage more exclusives.
#103 Posted by tormentos (17100 posts) -
[QUOTE="CwlHeddwyn"]Question is: if these specs are accurate finalised specs for PS4 &720 then what route are MS going down? The power advantage for the PS4 will be significant and I imagine 720 will struggle to compete when it becomes obvious to the average gamer. MS did well with the X360 because it could compete with the PS3 graphically due to the excellent combination of CPU, RAM and powerful GPU. Despite all of Sony's claims of being 2x as powerful the X360 held its own because you could see visually speaking the truth. so if these orbis and Durango specs are true then X360 will struggle to compete graphically.and PS4 could well dominate especially as it will have better looking multiples and better looking exclusives. The extra power could well encourage more exclusives.

I don't think power will determine the generation,remember what happen this one. MS apparently went in the wii direction,no one can't blame them power has lead them no where,is about winning not about finishing a distant second or 3rd,also about making money,while MS has made some this gen it was greatly offset by losses at the start of the generation. I don't know how it will pay for them,it may loss them some hardcore gamers,but it could also win them allot of casuals,it doesn't sound good to you but for MS that is music.,
#104 Posted by Chozofication (2763 posts) -

[QUOTE="CwlHeddwyn"]Question is: if these specs are accurate finalised specs for PS4 &720 then what route are MS going down? The power advantage for the PS4 will be significant and I imagine 720 will struggle to compete when it becomes obvious to the average gamer. MS did well with the X360 because it could compete with the PS3 graphically due to the excellent combination of CPU, RAM and powerful GPU. Despite all of Sony's claims of being 2x as powerful the X360 held its own because you could see visually speaking the truth. so if these orbis and Durango specs are true then X360 will struggle to compete graphically.and PS4 could well dominate especially as it will have better looking multiples and better looking exclusives. The extra power could well encourage more exclusives.tormentos
I don't think power will determine the generation,remember what happen this one. MS apparently went in the wii direction,no one can't blame them power has lead them no where,is about winning not about finishing a distant second or 3rd,also about making money,while MS has made some this gen it was greatly offset by losses at the start of the generation. I don't know how it will pay for them,it may loss them some hardcore gamers,but it could also win them allot of casuals,it doesn't sound good to you but for MS that is music.,

MS and Nintendo are going in 2 completely directions. Nintendo is just trying to make something for everyone with new ways to play games, gamers and family alike. MS are just making something for the gadget whores glued to their next big social media kick. MS have been trying to be apple for a while now.

PS4 is going to be the go to console for games, maybe even more than Wii U. I'm extremely excited for PS4. I'm just thinking that if it can win developers over MS's console because of power and toolset, it might be the big break Sony needed.

#105 Posted by Mystery_Writer (7900 posts) -
@ronvalencia Based on the rumors so far, I think it's safe to call PS4 as the winner here in terms of graphics, right?
#106 Posted by tormentos (17100 posts) -
[QUOTE="Mystery_Writer"]@ronvalencia Based on the rumors so far, I think it's safe to call PS4 as the winner here in terms of graphics, right?

Based on this leaks spec no doubt about it the PS4 will perform better and both are using similar tech which would translate in easier ports.
#107 Posted by HaRmLeSS_RaGe (1270 posts) -

[QUOTE="Mystery_Writer"]@ronvalencia Based on the rumors so far, I think it's safe to call PS4 as the winner here in terms of graphics, right?tormentos
Based on this leaks spec no doubt about it the PS4 will perform better and both are using similar tech which would translate in easier ports.

Don't forget you need to take Sony's over the top BS into the equation! So....

NextBox leaked specs = Somewhat accurate

PS4 leaked specs = (PS4 leaked specs / 2) = Somewhat accurate :lol:

#108 Posted by Martin_G_N (1699 posts) -

These specs are much more accurate than the dev kit specs. 8 core CPU instead of the 4 dual cores, unified 4GB fast GDDR5 instead of the 8GB DDR3 and the 2.2GB videomemory. These specs are quite good, and if the difference between the two consoles will be as big as this, the PS4 will perform quite a bit better than the next xbox.

#109 Posted by Mystery_Writer (7900 posts) -

[QUOTE="Mystery_Writer"]@ronvalencia Based on the rumors so far, I think it's safe to call PS4 as the winner here in terms of graphics, right?tormentos
Based on this leaks spec no doubt about it the PS4 will perform better and both are using similar tech which would translate in easier ports.

ya, I think if the leaks were true, and PS4 having DDR5, and as you correctly concluded, X720 not having hybrid cube memory (as it contradicts with the 32MB ESRAM rumor), and also the PS4 having 18 CU vs X720's 12, then it's only logical to conclude PS4 is going to be significantly superior graphically next gen.

I still have one question though, which API access yields better & faster results for developers, LibGCM or HSA? or are they about the same?

#110 Posted by Tessellation (8797 posts) -

[QUOTE="tormentos"][QUOTE="Mystery_Writer"]@ronvalencia Based on the rumors so far, I think it's safe to call PS4 as the winner here in terms of graphics, right?Mystery_Writer

Based on this leaks spec no doubt about it the PS4 will perform better and both are using similar tech which would translate in easier ports.

ya, I think if the leaks were true, and PS4 having DDR5, and as you correctly concluded, X720 not having hybrid cube memory (as it contradicts with the 32MB ESRAM rumor), and also the PS4 having 18 CU vs X720's 12, then it's only logical to conclude PS4 is going to be significantly superior graphically next gen.

I still have one question though, which API access yields better & faster results for developers, LibGCM or HSA? or are they are about the same?

don't believe anything he said,because like everyone else he bases thing on rumors..go check beyond3d for non biased opinions.
#111 Posted by ReadingRainbow4 (13421 posts) -

[QUOTE="Mystery_Writer"]

[QUOTE="tormentos"] Based on this leaks spec no doubt about it the PS4 will perform better and both are using similar tech which would translate in easier ports.Tessellation

ya, I think if the leaks were true, and PS4 having DDR5, and as you correctly concluded, X720 not having hybrid cube memory (as it contradicts with the 32MB ESRAM rumor), and also the PS4 having 18 CU vs X720's 12, then it's only logical to conclude PS4 is going to be significantly superior graphically next gen.

I still have one question though, which API access yields better & faster results for developers, LibGCM or HSA? or are they are about the same?

don't believe anything he said,because like everyone else he bases thing on rumors..go check beyond3d for non biased opinions.

#112 Posted by osirisx3 (1756 posts) -

i heard that jag cores are for low power devices like tablets. so does this mean ps4 is teh weak?

#113 Posted by TheXFiles88 (1040 posts) -

[QUOTE="TheXFiles88"]

[QUOTE="tormentos"] Actually i wasn't celebrating but if you most know the PS4 one still quite faster,the 720 on is 68GB/s + 102GB/s but that doesn't mean they should be accounted like 170GB/s,go search on Beyond or Neogaf you can't combine those numbers,is 68 from one point to another and 102 from one point to another.. Unlike the PS4 176GB/s one.tormentos

You know, the DDRx DRAM has already been outclassed by a new revolutionary DRAM which called "Hybrid Memory Cube" It is a multi-chip module which works in parallel with the multi-core processors. The advantages are enormous over the DDRx. It costs less, 15x more performance, consumes less power and takes less space than a typical DDR3. If Microsoft is going to use this new HMC in its new Xbox (I don't think why they shouldn't), it will be a game changer since Microsoft is currently 1 of the 10 members of the HMC consortium. Just wait for the final specs after E3...;)

"Hybrid Memory Cube is a revolutionary innovation in DRAM memory architecture that sets a new standard for memory performance, power consumption and cost."

- HMC Combines high-speed logic process technology with a stack of through-silicon-via (TSV) bonded memory die.

- HMC delivers dramatic improvements in performance, breaking through the memory wall and enabling dramatic performance and bandwidth improvements -a single HMC can provide more than 15x the performance of a DDR3 module.

- The revolutionary architecture of HMC is exponentially more efficient than current memory, utilizing 70% less energy per bit than DDR3 DRAM technologies..

- Hybrid Memory Cube's increased density per bit and reduced form factor contribute to lower total cost of ownership, by allowing more memory into each machine and using nearly 90% less space than today's RDIMMs.

- With performance levels that break through the memory wall, Hybrid Memory Cube represents the key to extending network system performance to push through the challenges of new 100G and 400G infrastructure growth. Eventually, HMC will drive exascale CPU system performance growth for next generation HPC systems.

- Whereas DDR4 represents an evolutionary standard, HMC is a revolutionary technology that is a complete paradigm shift from current memory architectures.

- Hybrid Memory Cube will redefine memory. By advancing past the traditional DRAM system, HMC is setting a new standard of memory that can keep up with the advancements of CPUs and GPUs.

- Hybrid Memory Cube could be an absolute game changer for applications ranging from high performance computing to consumer technologies like tablets and graphics cards that value a combination of form factor, energy and bandwidth.

http://www.hybridmemorycube.org/technology.html

"Micron Readies Hybrid Memory Cube for Debut"

Hybrid Memory Cube (HMC) technology, a multi-chip module (MCM) that aims to address one of the biggest challenges in high performance computing: scaling the memory wall.

Memory architectures haven't kept pace with the bandwidth requirements of multicore processors. As microprocessor speeds out-accelerated DRAM memory speeds, a bottleneck developed that is referred to as the memory wall. Stacked memory applications, however, enable higher memory bandwidth.

The Hybrid Memory Cube (HMC) is a new memory architecture that combines a high-speed logic layer with a stack of through-silicon-via (TSV) bonded memory die that enables impressive advantages over current technology. According to company figures, a single HMC offers a 15x performance increase and uses 70 percent less energy per bit when compared to DDR3 memory, and takes up 90 percent less space than today's RDIMMs. The Cube is also scalable per application, which is not possible with DDR3 and DDR4. System designers have the option of employing the HMC as near memory for best performance or in a scalable module form factor, as far memory, for optimum power efficiency. This is a huge leap forward from a technology perspective, noted Graham, compared to DDRx and other boutique memory products that are out there.

http://www.hpcwire.com/hpcwire/2013-...for_debut.html

Shoud i do that a go with GDDR5 best and fastest solution.? No that would be call wishful thinking,the fact that the ESRAM exist basically confirms that you will not get that Ram on 720,ESRAM is there for a reason,to help the starved DDR3 memory.

Lol, just no.First of all the existence of the EDRAM is to help the GPU for "Free Antialiasing". Secondly for god sake, why would the design team decide to use DDR3 to begin with when there is this HMC which outperforms and costs than either the DDR3 or DDR4? I think you have to re-read what HMC is designed for:"...keeppace with the bandwidth requirements of multicore processors. As microprocessor speeds out-accelerated DRAM memory speeds, a bottleneck developed that is referred to as the memory wall".For example:

- 8G DDR3 can only achieve 68G/s (bandwidth)

- 8G HMC could achieve 480G/s(bandwidth)

The HMC will greatly improve the bandwidth which is needed for the modern multicore processors just as what is it intended to achieve.

#114 Posted by avshaman (86 posts) -
They are power efficient. The next Xbox is rumored to be using the same basic CPU.
#115 Posted by Martin_G_N (1699 posts) -

i heard that jag cores are for low power devices like tablets. so does this mean ps4 is teh weak?

osirisx3
Well, it seems that both these consoles will use this CPU, and it is probably a good enough CPU for games and basic console software. Remember that games today does'nt really utilize quad core CPU's, so I think it will do just fine. The GPU will do most of the heavy lifting anyways.
#116 Posted by Mystery_Writer (7900 posts) -

Lol, just no.First of all the existence of the EDRAM is to help the GPU for "Free Antialiasing". Secondly for god sake, why would the design team decide to use DDR3 to begin with when there is this HMC which outperforms and costs than either the DDR3 or DDR4? I think you have to re-read what HMC is designed for:"...keeppace with the bandwidth requirements of multicore processors. As microprocessor speeds out-accelerated DRAM memory speeds, a bottleneck developed that is referred to as the memory wall".For example:

- 8G DDR3 can only achieve 68G/s (bandwidth)

- 8G HMC could achieve 480G/s(bandwidth)

The HMC will greatly improve the bandwidth which is needed for the modern multicore processors just as what is it intended to achieve.

TheXFiles88

I believe tormento is right in his conclusion. If X720 has 8GB HMC, why would it need an additional slower more expensive 32MB ESRAM?

#117 Posted by Tessellation (8797 posts) -
They are power efficient. The next Xbox is rumored to be using the same basic CPU.avshaman
There is no info of xbox next CPU yeah it runs at 1.6GHz just like jaguar,but there is some rumors that is a modified one..
#118 Posted by Mystery_Writer (7900 posts) -
[QUOTE="avshaman"]They are power efficient. The next Xbox is rumored to be using the same basic CPU.Tessellation
There is no info of xbox next CPU yeah it runs at 1.6GHz just like jaguar,but there is some rumors that is a modified one..

I really hope you're right, as I'm somewhat disappointed about X720 rumored hardware so far.
#119 Posted by Martin_G_N (1699 posts) -

[QUOTE="TheXFiles88"]

Lol, just no.First of all the existence of the EDRAM is to help the GPU for "Free Antialiasing". Secondly for god sake, why would the design team decide to use DDR3 to begin with when there is this HMC which outperforms and costs than either the DDR3 or DDR4? I think you have to re-read what HMC is designed for:"...keeppace with the bandwidth requirements of multicore processors. As microprocessor speeds out-accelerated DRAM memory speeds, a bottleneck developed that is referred to as the memory wall".For example:

- 8G DDR3 can only achieve 68G/s (bandwidth)

- 8G HMC could achieve 480G/s(bandwidth)

The HMC will greatly improve the bandwidth which is needed for the modern multicore processors just as what is it intended to achieve.

Mystery_Writer

I believe tormento is right in his conclusion. If X720 has 8GB HMC, why would it need an additional slower more expensive 32MB ESRAM?

Yeah, I agree. Even if this HMC memory is cheaper to make, it's still new tech, and it won't be cheaper for MS to use. DDR3 is mass produced and the cheapest RAM, especially if they are going for a 8GB setup. Also, they would have to get AMD to develop they're components to utilize the HMC memory aswell, and that would not be cheap, or easy.
#120 Posted by Tessellation (8797 posts) -

[QUOTE="Tessellation"][QUOTE="avshaman"]They are power efficient. The next Xbox is rumored to be using the same basic CPU.Mystery_Writer
There is no info of xbox next CPU yeah it runs at 1.6GHz just like jaguar,but there is some rumors that is a modified one..

I really hope you're right, as I'm somewhat disappointed about X720 rumored hardware so far.

I don't know if i am right but you should check beyond3d instead of system wars for more non biased opinions/info,one respectable user ( Arthur Gies ) and the guy behind www.polygon.com wrote this on his twitter account

''current state of next-gen hardware rumors: what you're hearing spec-wise is accurate but incomplete. also, subject to minor changes.''

#121 Posted by TheXFiles88 (1040 posts) -

[QUOTE="TheXFiles88"]

Lol, just no.First of all the existence of the EDRAM is to help the GPU for "Free Antialiasing". Secondly for god sake, why would the design team decide to use DDR3 to begin with when there is this HMC which outperforms and costs than either the DDR3 or DDR4? I think you have to re-read what HMC is designed for:"...keep pace with the bandwidth requirements of multicore processors. As microprocessor speeds out-accelerated DRAM memory speeds, a bottleneck developed that is referred to as the memory wall".For example:

- 8G DDR3 can only achieve 68G/s (bandwidth)

- 8G HMC could achieve 480G/s(bandwidth)

The HMC will greatly improve the bandwidth which is needed for the modern multicore processors just as what is it intended to achieve.

Mystery_Writer

I believe tormento is right in his conclusion. If X720 has 8GB HMC, why would it need an additional slower more expensive 32MB ESRAM?

So, the design team decided to spend $$$ for the DDR3 in order to cause bandwidth problems to begin with and then turned around the corner and saw the problems coming and decided to spend additional more $$$ just to add EDRAM? Does it really make sense to you at all? As I have mentioned before, the existence of the EDRAM is to help the GPU for its final data processing for "FREE ANTIALIASING". So you think the EDRAM in the current Xbox was designed to help the 512MB GDDR3 or was it "INTENDED" to add "FREE ANTIALIASING"?

#122 Posted by ronvalencia (15109 posts) -

This is the reason why some people have claim they are close. Orbis has 2 more CU than Durango,but also has 4 more CU for physics and many other stuff. ""This issue has been explained in this thread over and over and over again. This is a customization to make Orbis a monster in terms of compute. If you give any F*** about destructability, physics, animation blending/culling, lighting, or anti aliasing, you will want this to be as customized as possible. Those 4 CU's you just wrote off, are THE secret sauce. Go read it. Traditionally certain features / effects can cripple a GPU. Just look at how PhysX affects AMD cards. However, instead of letting that happen, Orbis has dedicated 4 CU's to make those certain features relatively painless and not as much of a burden. This is GPGPU or HSA."" In other words, this is a GOOD thing."" http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=47029526&postcount=2392 This is not something that paint good for Durango,while it seems Orbis is just marginally more powerful because it has 2 more CU,is actually allot more,when you take any physic and other effects and ad them top the equation which will handle by the extra 4CU... What this means.? Frames,AA,physics and several other will tent to favor Orbis specially if the game is physics intense,with many explosions and stuff like that,on 720 the physics could be run on the CPU to avoid hit performance,but you are eating CPU resources those the PS4 will be use for other purposes. tormentos

On "Just look at how PhysX affects AMD cards" statement, PhysX is a proprietary realtime physics engine middleware SDK from NVIDIA.

Refer to AMD's Bullet/OpenCL physics demos.

http://www.bulletphysics.org/Bullet/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?p=&f=18&t=4067

http://www.bulletphysics.org/Bullet/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=7938

Note that Crysis 3 PC doesn't need PhysX.

The 14 + 4 split guarantees certain standards.

#123 Posted by Mystery_Writer (7900 posts) -

[QUOTE="Mystery_Writer"]

[QUOTE="TheXFiles88"]

Lol, just no.First of all the existence of the EDRAM is to help the GPU for "Free Antialiasing". Secondly for god sake, why would the design team decide to use DDR3 to begin with when there is this HMC which outperforms and costs than either the DDR3 or DDR4? I think you have to re-read what HMC is designed for:"...keeppace with the bandwidth requirements of multicore processors. As microprocessor speeds out-accelerated DRAM memory speeds, a bottleneck developed that is referred to as the memory wall".For example:

- 8G DDR3 can only achieve 68G/s (bandwidth)

- 8G HMC could achieve 480G/s(bandwidth)

The HMC will greatly improve the bandwidth which is needed for the modern multicore processors just as what is it intended to achieve.

TheXFiles88

I believe tormento is right in his conclusion. If X720 has 8GB HMC, why would it need an additional slower more expensive 32MB ESRAM?

So, the design team decided to spend $$$ for the DDR3 in order to cause bandwidth problems to begin with and then turned around the corner and saw the problems coming and decided to spend additional $$$ just to add EDRAM? Does it make sense to you at all? As I have mentioned before, the existence of the EDRAM is to help the GPU for final data processing for"FREE ANTIALIASING".So you think the EDRAM in the current Xbox was designed to help the 512MB GDDR3 or was it "INTENDED"to add"FREE ANTIALIASING"?

Not too sure what you mean. Isn't the high bandwidth of EDRAM on X360 the reason for the "free antialiasing"?

And if that's the case, why would they need slower ESRAM for X720 if they're planning to have HMC (which would give them the 'free' antialiasing without the cost for ESRAM)?

Also, is HMC ready?

#124 Posted by TheXFiles88 (1040 posts) -

Question is: if these specs are accurate finalised specs for PS4 &720 then what route are MS going down? The power advantage for the PS4 will be significant and I imagine 720 will struggle to compete when it becomes obvious to the average gamer. MS did well with the X360 because it could compete with the PS3 graphically due to the excellent combination of CPU, RAM and powerful GPU. Despite all of Sony's claims of being 2x as powerful the X360 held its own because you could see visually speaking the truth. so if these orbis and Durango specs are true then X360 will struggle to compete graphically.and PS4 could well dominate especially as it will have better looking multiples and better looking exclusives. The extra power could well encourage more exclusives.CwlHeddwyn

Just remember, these dev kits have been using off the shelf PC components for the"TARGET PERFORMANCE". The final specs on these 2 consoles will be different just as last time.

#125 Posted by TheXFiles88 (1040 posts) -

[QUOTE="TheXFiles88"]

[QUOTE="Mystery_Writer"]

I believe tormento is right in his conclusion. If X720 has 8GB HMC, why would it need an additional slower more expensive 32MB ESRAM?

Mystery_Writer

So, the design team decided to spend $$$ for the DDR3 in order to cause bandwidth problems to begin with and then turned around the corner and saw the problems coming and decided to spend additional $$$ just to add EDRAM? Does it make sense to you at all? As I have mentioned before, the existence of the EDRAM is to help the GPU for final data processing for"FREE ANTIALIASING".So you think the EDRAM in the current Xbox was designed to help the 512MB GDDR3 or was it "INTENDED"to add"FREE ANTIALIASING"?

Not too sure what you mean. Isn't the high bandwidth of EDRAM on X360 the reason for the "free antialiasing"?

And if that's the case, why would they need slower ESRAM for X720 if they're planning to have HMC (which would give them the 'free' antialiasing without the cost for ESRAM)?

Also, is HMC ready?

Since the GPU's usually bombared with lots of information, thay do need help for final data processing from the EDRAM such as the case in the Xbox 360. also pay attention to this quote: "The eDRAM holds the contents of all of the back buffers, does the resolve, and hands off the resulting image into main system memory for scan-out to the display."

"The GPU won't be using system memory itself quite as much as one might expect, because it packs 10MB of embedded DRAM right on the package....The really fascinating thing here is the design of that daughter die. Feldstein called it a continuation of the traditional graphics pipeline into memory. Basically, there's a 10MB pool of embedded DRAM, designed by NEC, in the center of the die. Around the outside is a ring of logic designed by ATI. This logic is made up of 192 component processors capable of doing the basic math necessary for multisampled antialiasing. If I have it right, the component processors should be able to process 32 pixels at once by operating on six components per pixel: red, green, blue, alpha, stencil, and depth. This logic can do the resolve pass for multisample antialiasing right there on the eDRAM die, giving the Xbox 360 the ability to do 4X antialiasing on a high-definition (1280x768) image essentially for "free"i.e., with no appreciable performance penalty. The eDRAM holds the contents of all of the back buffers, does the resolve, and hands off the resulting image into main system memory for scan-out to the display." You can read more in the link below:

http://techreport.com/review/8342/details-of-ati-xbox-360-gpu-unveiled/2


#126 Posted by clr84651 (5364 posts) -

I don't believe the 4GB RAM part. Why would Sony send dev kits with 16GB RAM if that were true? Dev kits have always been known to have twice the memory as the console. So the PS4 would have 8GB. I truly doubt we'll know the real specs until Sony announces it. These rumors keep changing what the specs are.

#127 Posted by Tessellation (8797 posts) -

I don't believe the 4GB RAM part. Why would Sony send dev kits with 16GB RAM if that were true? Dev kits have always been known to have twice the memory as the console. So the PS4 would have 8GB. I truly doubt we'll know the real specs until Sony announces it. These rumors keep changing what the specs are.

clr84651
weren't you using rumors as facts few days ago? now that tables turned you said they are fake :cool: ?
#128 Posted by ReadingRainbow4 (13421 posts) -

16gb ram isn't needed in any stretch of the imagination.

The speed is what's important here.

#129 Posted by Martin_G_N (1699 posts) -

I don't believe the 4GB RAM part. Why would Sony send dev kits with 16GB RAM if that were true? Dev kits have always been known to have twice the memory as the console. So the PS4 would have 8GB. I truly doubt we'll know the real specs until Sony announces it. These rumors keep changing what the specs are.

clr84651
They would choose 4GB GDDR5 to get the highest system bandwidth possible, which Sony allways prioritize instead of having more and slow RAM. It would make sense going back to unified RAM, since having two different chips in the PS3 was a big bottleneck.
#130 Posted by faizan_faizan (7849 posts) -

16gb ram isn't needed in any stretch of the imagination.

The speed is what's important here.

ReadingRainbow4
#131 Posted by Chozofication (2763 posts) -

[QUOTE="Mystery_Writer"]

[QUOTE="TheXFiles88"]

Lol, just no.First of all the existence of the EDRAM is to help the GPU for "Free Antialiasing". Secondly for god sake, why would the design team decide to use DDR3 to begin with when there is this HMC which outperforms and costs than either the DDR3 or DDR4? I think you have to re-read what HMC is designed for:"...keep pace with the bandwidth requirements of multicore processors. As microprocessor speeds out-accelerated DRAM memory speeds, a bottleneck developed that is referred to as the memory wall".For example:

- 8G DDR3 can only achieve 68G/s (bandwidth)

- 8G HMC could achieve 480G/s(bandwidth)

The HMC will greatly improve the bandwidth which is needed for the modern multicore processors just as what is it intended to achieve.

TheXFiles88

I believe tormento is right in his conclusion. If X720 has 8GB HMC, why would it need an additional slower more expensive 32MB ESRAM?

So, the design team decided to spend $$$ for the DDR3 in order to cause bandwidth problems to begin with and then turned around the corner and saw the problems coming and decided to spend additional more $$$ just to add EDRAM? Does it really make sense to you at all? As I have mentioned before, the existence of the EDRAM is to help the GPU for its final data processing for "FREE ANTIALIASING". So you think the EDRAM in the current Xbox was designed to help the 512MB GDDR3 or was it "INTENDED" to add "FREE ANTIALIASING"?

eDRAM is for far more than antialiasing. A lot of games don't even use hardware AA on 360. It's for everything that requires blazing speeds, including the framebuffer. MS liked to throw around the free antialiasing shtick as an example of what you could do with it only. Even funnier they said it could handle 4xMSAA by itself, typical spreadsheet BS. Gamecube and Ps2 both have eDRAM as well, yet almost no games to my knowledge use AA.

You don't understand that even if this new RAM is infinitely better, the fact that it's new technology would cost MS more money. I've never even heard of this new ram, it's a good thing ram is finally evolving again if it's all true, but the fact remains it's brand new technology and you can't just slap that in a device all willy nilly. I'm sure these consoles are very close to being finalized.

#132 Posted by ReadingRainbow4 (13421 posts) -

if MS is planning to use free antialising on every title, I'll have no problem avoiding it.

Because Free Antialiasing looks like dog crap, It more often than not blurs the image and reduces overall quality.

#133 Posted by ronvalencia (15109 posts) -

[QUOTE="Mystery_Writer"]

[QUOTE="TheXFiles88"]

Lol, just no.First of all the existence of the EDRAM is to help the GPU for "Free Antialiasing". Secondly for god sake, why would the design team decide to use DDR3 to begin with when there is this HMC which outperforms and costs than either the DDR3 or DDR4? I think you have to re-read what HMC is designed for:"...keep pace with the bandwidth requirements of multicore processors. As microprocessor speeds out-accelerated DRAM memory speeds, a bottleneck developed that is referred to as the memory wall".For example:

- 8G DDR3 can only achieve 68G/s (bandwidth)

- 8G HMC could achieve 480G/s(bandwidth)

The HMC will greatly improve the bandwidth which is needed for the modern multicore processors just as what is it intended to achieve.

TheXFiles88

I believe tormento is right in his conclusion. If X720 has 8GB HMC, why would it need an additional slower more expensive 32MB ESRAM?

So, the design team decided to spend $$$ for the DDR3 in order to cause bandwidth problems to begin with and then turned around the corner and saw the problems coming and decided to spend additional more $$$ just to add EDRAM? Does it really make sense to you at all? As I have mentioned before, the existence of the EDRAM is to help the GPU for its final data processing for "FREE ANTIALIASING". So you think the EDRAM in the current Xbox was designed to help the 512MB GDDR3 or was it "INTENDED" to add "FREE ANTIALIASING"?

Xbox 360's "free MSAA" only works with certain workloads and it's not optimal with deferred renderers (for cheap plenty of lights effects).

AMD's "Forward Plus" render re-enables MSAA hardware usage but with deferred render level "plenty of lights" effects.

forward_plus_rendering-635x357.png

#134 Posted by ronvalencia (15109 posts) -

if MS is planning to use free antialising on every title, I'll have no problem avoiding it.

Because Free Antialiasing looks like dog crap, It more often than not blurs the image and reduces overall quality.

ReadingRainbow4

You are mixing "free MSAA" with post processing/image based AA (e.g. FXAA, MLAA, 'etc').

#135 Posted by Chozofication (2763 posts) -

[QUOTE="TheXFiles88"]

[QUOTE="Mystery_Writer"]

I believe tormento is right in his conclusion. If X720 has 8GB HMC, why would it need an additional slower more expensive 32MB ESRAM?

ronvalencia

So, the design team decided to spend $$$ for the DDR3 in order to cause bandwidth problems to begin with and then turned around the corner and saw the problems coming and decided to spend additional more $$$ just to add EDRAM? Does it really make sense to you at all? As I have mentioned before, the existence of the EDRAM is to help the GPU for its final data processing for "FREE ANTIALIASING". So you think the EDRAM in the current Xbox was designed to help the 512MB GDDR3 or was it "INTENDED" to add "FREE ANTIALIASING"?

AMD's "Forward Plus" render re-enables MSAA hardware usage but with deferred render level "plenty of lights" effects.

How much performance cost would 4xMSAA this way be on the latest Orbis specs?

#136 Posted by TheXFiles88 (1040 posts) -

[QUOTE="TheXFiles88"]

[QUOTE="Mystery_Writer"]

I believe tormento is right in his conclusion. If X720 has 8GB HMC, why would it need an additional slower more expensive 32MB ESRAM?

Chozofication

So, the design team decided to spend $$$ for the DDR3 in order to cause bandwidth problems to begin with and then turned around the corner and saw the problems coming and decided to spend additional more $$$ just to add EDRAM? Does it really make sense to you at all? As I have mentioned before, the existence of the EDRAM is to help the GPU for its final data processing for "FREE ANTIALIASING". So you think the EDRAM in the current Xbox was designed to help the 512MB GDDR3 or was it "INTENDED" to add "FREE ANTIALIASING"?

eDRAM is for far more than antialiasing. A lot of games don't even use hardware AA on 360. It's for everything that requires blazing speeds, including the framebuffer. MS liked to throw around the free antialiasing shtick as an example of what you could do with it only. Even funnier they said it could handle 4xMSAA by itself, typical spreadsheet BS. Gamecube and Ps2 both have eDRAM as well, yet almost no games to my knowledge use AA.

You don't understand that even if this new RAM is infinitely better, the fact that it's new technology would cost MS more money. I've never even heard of this new ram, it's a good thing ram is finally evolving again if it's all true, but the fact remains it's brand new technology and you can't just slap that in a device all willy nilly. I'm sure these consoles are very close to being finalized.

AMD has a similar architecture which called "Interposer Stacking" in their new graphics cards and suppose to be in the next Xbox's "Oban" chip since the funding comes from Microsoft for the development of the chip and they are also a memeber of the HMC consortium.

1

#137 Posted by tormentos (17100 posts) -
Lol, just no.First of all the existence of the EDRAM is to help the GPU for "Free Antialiasing". Secondly for god sake, why would the design team decide to use DDR3 to begin with when there is this HMC which outperforms and costs than either the DDR3 or DDR4? I think you have to re-read what HMC is designed for:"...keeppace with the bandwidth requirements of multicore processors. As microprocessor speeds out-accelerated DRAM memory speeds, a bottleneck developed that is referred to as the memory wall".For example:

- 8G DDR3 can only achieve 68G/s (bandwidth)

- 8G HMC could achieve 480G/s(bandwidth)

The HMC will greatly improve the bandwidth which is needed for the modern multicore processors just as what is it intended to achieve.

TheXFiles88
:lol: to get free AA... Some one apparently did not learn the purpose of EDRAM on 360,and PS2,it wasn't to get free AA in fact most PS2 games did not even had AA even that the GS had 4MB of EDRAM,not only that many games on 360 also don't have AA,in fact one of the biggest examples is Gears 3. One of the benefits of having EDRAM was free AA,and even then it was over estimated by ATI,they claimed that all 360 games would be 720p with 4XAA free which turn to be not true,now on to EDRAM again,one of the reasons the PS3 could not emulate the PS2 was the 4MB EDram on the GS. EDRAM and now ESDRAM are in place to help the 360 and now the 720 with their bandwidth issues,because DDR3 is slow in fact the 360 without the EDRAM would have encounter a big bottleneck bandwidth wise. Keep your wishful thinking the 720p will get that Ram and 3 GPU..:lol:
#138 Posted by tormentos (17100 posts) -
[QUOTE="avshaman"]They are power efficient. The next Xbox is rumored to be using the same basic CPU.Tessellation
There is no info of xbox next CPU yeah it runs at 1.6GHz just like jaguar,but there is some rumors that is a modified one..

Both are modified there is not 8 cores Jaguars..
#139 Posted by tormentos (17100 posts) -
Yeah, I agree. Even if this HMC memory is cheaper to make, it's still new tech, and it won't be cheaper for MS to use. DDR3 is mass produced and the cheapest RAM, especially if they are going for a 8GB setup. Also, they would have to get AMD to develop they're components to utilize the HMC memory aswell, and that would not be cheap, or easy.Martin_G_N
Apparently MS has other vision other than gaming and is quite apparent,the xbox 720 will be a feature rich console,but it will be under power vs the PS4,at least based on this speaks.. Nothing stop MS from making a strong console again,the fact that all rumors point in a completely different direction says it all,MS did not knew what sony was doing,neither sony knew what MS was doing,i guess now MS has not choice there is no turning back at this point without holding the console for 9 to 13 more months,if anything is to be change,and 8 GB of GDDR5 is not business for MS or viable profit wise,it doesn't even make sense with the weak GPU specs.
#140 Posted by tormentos (17100 posts) -
I don't know if i am right but you should check beyond3d instead of system wars for more non biased opinions/info,one respectable user ( Arthur Gies ) and the guy behind www.polygon.com wrote this on his twitter account

''current state of next-gen hardware rumors: what you're hearing spec-wise is accurate but incomplete. also, subject to minor changes.''

Tessellation
Polygon the same Polygon who Microsoft payed $750,000 to make a documentary about polygon.? MS pay Polygon $750,000 to make a documentary about them self..:lol: Oh and how od Aegies (who is the guy you refer to) is the one defending the 720 on Neogaf..:lol: So much for unbiased posters on Beyond3D,hey by the way Aegies him self admit he is not a hardware guy or even have any expertise on anything technical,in fact he claim to have document of the 720 but not understanding a thing on them,by the way he confirmed the weak GPU and the 8 core jaguar basically.. So much for your argument..
#141 Posted by TheXFiles88 (1040 posts) -

[QUOTE="TheXFiles88"]Lol, just no.First of all the existence of the EDRAM is to help the GPU for "Free Antialiasing". Secondly for god sake, why would the design team decide to use DDR3 to begin with when there is this HMC which outperforms and costs than either the DDR3 or DDR4? I think you have to re-read what HMC is designed for:"...keeppace with the bandwidth requirements of multicore processors. As microprocessor speeds out-accelerated DRAM memory speeds, a bottleneck developed that is referred to as the memory wall".For example:

- 8G DDR3 can only achieve 68G/s (bandwidth)

- 8G HMC could achieve 480G/s(bandwidth)

The HMC will greatly improve the bandwidth which is needed for the modern multicore processors just as what is it intended to achieve.

tormentos

:lol: to get free AA... Some one apparently did not learn the purpose of EDRAM on 360,and PS2,it wasn't to get free AA in fact most PS2 games did not even had AA even that the GS had 4MB of EDRAM,not only that many games on 360 also don't have AA,in fact one of the biggest examples is Gears 3. One of the benefits of having EDRAM was free AA,and even then it was over estimated by ATI,they claimed that all 360 games would be 720p with 4XAA free which turn to be not true,now on to EDRAM again,one of the reasons the PS3 could not emulate the PS2 was the 4MB EDram on the GS. EDRAM and now ESDRAM are in place to help the 360 and now the 720 with their bandwidth issues,because DDR3 is slow in fact the 360 without the EDRAM would have encounter a big bottleneck bandwidth wise. Keep your wishful thinking the 720p will get that Ram and 3 GPU..:lol:

Well, my conclusion is either you have reading comprehension problems or you are just trying to be an idiot. Just read that article I've just posted above your head dude.:roll:

#142 Posted by tormentos (17100 posts) -
Well, my conclusion is either you have reading comprehension problems or you are just trying to be an idiot. Just read that article I've just posted above your head dude.:roll:TheXFiles88
EDRAM is not for free AA,that is not the purpose of it,free AA is one benefit,on 360 it did not even work because of tiling,the same if true for the 720 ESRAM as well,4XAA on 360 was not free. Now that ram will not be use,it will be normal DDR3 and that is the reason why 32MB of ESRAM are in place to help the DDR3 with bandwidth issues.
#143 Posted by StrongBlackVine (8418 posts) -

Lots of sad Xbox fanboys in here...

#144 Posted by Tessellation (8797 posts) -
[QUOTE="Tessellation"] I don't know if i am right but you should check beyond3d instead of system wars for more non biased opinions/info,one respectable user ( Arthur Gies ) and the guy behind www.polygon.com wrote this on his twitter account

''current state of next-gen hardware rumors: what you're hearing spec-wise is accurate but incomplete. also, subject to minor changes.''

tormentos
Polygon the same Polygon who Microsoft payed $750,000 to make a documentary about polygon.? MS pay Polygon $750,000 to make a documentary about them self..:lol: Oh and how od Aegies (who is the guy you refer to) is the one defending the 720 on Neogaf..:lol: So much for unbiased posters on Beyond3D,hey by the way Aegies him self admit he is not a hardware guy or even have any expertise on anything technical,in fact he claim to have document of the 720 but not understanding a thing on them,by the way he confirmed the weak GPU and the 8 core jaguar basically.. So much for your argument..

Oh boy another one of your butthurt comebacks? most at beyond3d agree with his opinion which it seems to hurt you : ( :cool: i see you only use personal opinions favoring the ps4 for your butthurt agenda :cool: and the rumors go around that the jaguar inside the next xbox isn't the same inside your plastic woman lol
#145 Posted by StrongBlackVine (8418 posts) -

[QUOTE="tormentos"][QUOTE="Tessellation"] I don't know if i am right but you should check beyond3d instead of system wars for more non biased opinions/info,one respectable user ( Arthur Gies ) and the guy behind www.polygon.com wrote this on his twitter account

''current state of next-gen hardware rumors: what you're hearing spec-wise is accurate but incomplete. also, subject to minor changes.''

Tessellation

Polygon the same Polygon who Microsoft payed $750,000 to make a documentary about polygon.? MS pay Polygon $750,000 to make a documentary about them self..:lol: Oh and how od Aegies (who is the guy you refer to) is the one defending the 720 on Neogaf..:lol: So much for unbiased posters on Beyond3D,hey by the way Aegies him self admit he is not a hardware guy or even have any expertise on anything technical,in fact he claim to have document of the 720 but not understanding a thing on them,by the way he confirmed the weak GPU and the 8 core jaguar basically.. So much for your argument..

Oh boy another one of your butthurt comebacks? most at beyond3d agree with his opinion which it seems to hurt you : ( :cool: i see you only use personal opinions favoring the ps4 for your butthurt agenda :cool: and the rumors go around that the jaguar inside the next xbox isn't the same inside your plastic woman lol

Microsoft has gone casual...get used to it.

#146 Posted by ReadingRainbow4 (13421 posts) -

Has there been any info at all to support the theory the nextbox will be using HSA, aside from the fact that Microsoft is on the consortium.

This all just seems like hopeful speculation.

#147 Posted by ronvalencia (15109 posts) -

[QUOTE="TheXFiles88"]Lol, just no.First of all the existence of the EDRAM is to help the GPU for "Free Antialiasing". Secondly for god sake, why would the design team decide to use DDR3 to begin with when there is this HMC which outperforms and costs than either the DDR3 or DDR4? I think you have to re-read what HMC is designed for:"...keeppace with the bandwidth requirements of multicore processors. As microprocessor speeds out-accelerated DRAM memory speeds, a bottleneck developed that is referred to as the memory wall".For example:

- 8G DDR3 can only achieve 68G/s (bandwidth)

- 8G HMC could achieve 480G/s(bandwidth)

The HMC will greatly improve the bandwidth which is needed for the modern multicore processors just as what is it intended to achieve.

tormentos

:lol: to get free AA... Some one apparently did not learn the purpose of EDRAM on 360,and PS2,it wasn't to get free AA in fact most PS2 games did not even had AA even that the GS had 4MB of EDRAM,not only that many games on 360 also don't have AA,in fact one of the biggest examples is Gears 3. One of the benefits of having EDRAM was free AA,and even then it was over estimated by ATI,they claimed that all 360 games would be 720p with 4XAA free which turn to be not true,now on to EDRAM again,one of the reasons the PS3 could not emulate the PS2 was the 4MB EDram on the GS. EDRAM and now ESDRAM are in place to help the 360 and now the 720 with their bandwidth issues,because DDR3 is slow in fact the 360 without the EDRAM would have encounter a big bottleneck bandwidth wise. Keep your wishful thinking the 720p will get that Ram and 3 GPU..:lol:

On Smart eDRAM's MSAA, ATI didn't factor in certain workloads which resulted in less than optimal setup.

AMD attempted to address this issue with AMD "Forward Plus" render i.e. moving the main problem from memory to compute.

Compute improvements are currently outpacing memory improvements.

#148 Posted by tormentos (17100 posts) -
[QUOTE="Tessellation"] Oh boy another one of your butthurt comebacks? most at beyond3d agree with his opinion which it seems to hurt you : ( :cool: i see you only use personal opinions favoring the ps4 for your butthurt agenda :cool: and the rumors go around that the jaguar inside the next xbox isn't the same inside your plastic woman lol

Maybe you are reading a parallel universe beyon3d because the one i read most people think the PS4 is actually stronger at least the ones that go by this specs. I killed your sweetvar26 argument and now you move to Aegies..:lol:
#149 Posted by tormentos (17100 posts) -
[QUOTE="ronvalencia"] On Smart eDRAM's MSAA, ATI didn't factor in certain workloads which resulted in less than optimal setup. AMD attempted to address this issue with AMD "Forward Plus" render i.e. moving the main problem from memory to compute. Compute improvements are currently outpacing memory improvements.

Dude ATI claimed 720p 4XAA and failed.. Only 2XAA was free 4XAA wasn't possible because of tiling...
#150 Posted by tormentos (17100 posts) -
Microsoft has gone casual...get used to it.StrongBlackVine
Tesselation just have a hard time swallowing it..:lol: