Used games are not the problem and we owe publishers nothing.

Yes, we needed another one. Because apparently we still have some of you out there who think a used games block isn't a big deal. That being told you don't own what you own is perfectly OK. That used games is the only reason developers close down and Bobby Kotick slides dangeriously closer to poverty with every used game sale. You, my good sirs and madams, are wrong.

1. Gamestop =/= used games

Kijiji, Cragslist, Ebay, Amazon, friend to friend, there are plenty of methods a used game gets around. Gamestop and their shady buisness is beside the point.

2. Used games =/= piracy

Piracy takes one game and copies it millions of times. Used games were new at one point. different.

3. AAA development is the one that isn't self sustaining, not used games.

When you need to sell 6 million copies to break even, your spending too much. Its the proverbial collage student that dosn't know how to manage credit.  

4. Many times, you aren't supporting the developers.

Developers get a very small cut from royalties (around 15%), if they even get them at all. A month or so after the fact, when the used games market has taken full effect on a title and the game is old news, how much do you think buying new is going to matter to a developer who isn't seeing much of that money? The publishers are the prime benificiary here.

5. Gaming is a luxury

Yes, that's very true. it is a luxury, as non-essensial entertainment. Now, why is that helping publishers if far fewer people can afford to support the hobby? Many used games are traded in order to fund new games, and often a used game is traded in to recoup a little of the investment if the customer was unsatisfied. What should one do with a Sonic '06 level turd in the future? keep it forever? Perhaps your game dosn't offer the same value as a larger one, why would i pay the same premium for it?

I do hope the X1 falls on it's face over this. Not because I hold a blind love for my Playstation, as i'm sure i'll be accused of. But because we as consumers deserve at least a little freedom, a little something that the industry dosn't control. Should the general population vote with their wallets for these shenanigans, we can only look forward to a totaltarian gaming future, and one that leaves a whole chapter of our legacy buried with the shut down servers once they see no more need to keep them on. Think the game industry is headed for a crash? This is the co-pilot pushing the stick forward.

Game consoles and printers are the only goods I know of that are sold at a loss. Its expected that used games business would be frowned upon by the industry. If the 360 had been sold for profit like most devices it would have cost $800 at least, PS 3 would have been at least $1,000. Most gamers would have to find a new hobby if it wasnt for Sony and MS selling hardware at a loss.

Game consoles and printers are the only goods I know of that are sold at a loss. Its expected that used games business would be frowned upon by the industry. If the 360 had been sold for profit like most devices it would have cost $800 at least, PS 3 would have been at least $1,000. Most gamers would have to find a new hobby if it wasnt for Sony and MS selling hardware at a loss.

Cranler

yes and piracy does not equal a lost sale

As a consumer, my honest response to me seeing my norms pissed away is to not support it. I don't even buy used games often but I'm not for giving it up. You want high end gaming, get a PC. Otherwise, what Sony and MS do selling systems at a loss so we can have "teh best graphix" is something I don't give a rats ass about. Publishers should fix their model because imo, until the disk dies and everything is digital, there isn't a chance in hell I'm buying a console where I can't lend games out.

yes and piracy does not equal a lost sale

lostrib

Game consoles and printers are the only goods I know of that are sold at a loss. Its expected that used games business would be frowned upon by the industry. If the 360 had been sold for profit like most devices it would have cost $800 at least, PS 3 would have been at least $1,000. Most gamers would have to find a new hobby if it wasnt for Sony and MS selling hardware at a loss.

Cranler

One more thing:

Like in many other markets, people who sell their used products tend to use the money to buy a new one of the same kind.

Sell a car, buy a new one. Sell your house, buy a new one. Sell your game, buy a new one!

That's the most common reason for selling stuff.

Also, there are people who try the game by borrowing it, and later buy it.

Used games, like any other used durable product, is part of the whole market dynamics.

In the end, they benefit even devs themselves.

There's no other reason to make it seem like a problem, other than to make profit with every play, like if the used product was a new one.

[QUOTE="Cranler"]

Game consoles and printers are the only goods I know of that are sold at a loss. Its expected that used games business would be frowned upon by the industry. If the 360 had been sold for profit like most devices it would have cost $800 at least, PS 3 would have been at least $1,000. Most gamers would have to find a new hobby if it wasnt for Sony and MS selling hardware at a loss.

BrunoBRS

That's not a problem. They use that marketing strategy since the PS1 era. It's a plan used to profit more actually, by managing to conquer consumer base faster, and thus selling more games.

They profit a lot with the games, enough to make it up for the hardware loss, and even to compensate departments that are not doing as good as the entertainment one (see Sony for example).

Great thread, video games are a product like any other, and there is no reason why the first sale doctrine shouldn't apply.

Blocking used games would be pretty disasterous on consoles, I too hope MS falls flat to its face with this ugly new strategy of theirs.

Yeah, it's getting pretty damn annoying with a bunch of morons buying into the "used games is the cancer of the industry" argument.

Games are products, not services, and first sale should always apply.

Exactly, when I buy a game then it's mine, I can do whatever I want with it so I dont give a rats ass if MS wants more money, I'll go PS4 and end of story and if Sony happens to do the same crap then I'll go PC only or maybe get that Nintendo U thing that no one makes games for anymore.

Exactly, when I buy a game then it's mine, I can do whatever I want with it so I dont give a rats ass if MS wants more money, I'll go PS4 and end of story and if Sony happens to do the same crap then I'll go PC only or maybe get that Nintendo U thing that no one makes games for anymore.

SchnabbleTab

Well said. I hope E3 answers some of the burning questions I have for MS or I'll be skipping X1. Heil68

Dude, off topic, you and Eroica are great hosts for the podcast. I haven't laughed so hard during a gaming podcast in a long time.

[QUOTE="SchnabbleTab"]

Exactly, when I buy a game then it's mine, I can do whatever I want with it so I dont give a rats ass if MS wants more money, I'll go PS4 and end of story and if Sony happens to do the same crap then I'll go PC only or maybe get that Nintendo U thing that no one makes games for anymore.

Oil_Rope_Bombs

My big issue it's taking freedom away for no good reason. So I agree with the OP. Though i don't even like to buy used games :P

My big issue it's taking freedom away for no good reason. So I agree with the OP. Though i don't even like to buy used games :P

Joedgabe

One more thing:

Like in many other markets, people who sell their used products tend to use the money to buy a new one of the same kind.

Sell a car, buy a new one. Sell your house, buy a new one. Sell your game, buy a new one!

That's the most common reason for selling stuff.

Also, there are people who try the game by borrowing it, and later buy it.

Used games, like any other used durable product, is part of the whole market dynamics.

In the end, they benefit even devs themselves.

There's no other reason to make it seem like a problem, other than to make profit with every play, like if the used product was a new one.

SambaLele

Well said. I hope E3 answers some of the burning questions I have for MS or I'll be skipping X1. Heil68

Blocking used games isn't a big deal.

1. Gamestop =/= used games: Their business is dependant on this. I dont care either way. I havent bought a game in Gamestop in years.

2. Used games =/= piracy: True. But i dont get your reasoning. The initial pirated master copy could just as likely been a sale too. The point of this comparison is that a used sale is akin to no revenue - like piracy. But otherwise, yes, they are different.

3. AAA development is the one that isn't self sustaining, not used games: And publishers are finding additional ways to garner review. Blocking used games *might* be one of them. The data is unclear. Thats why its being done.

4. Many times, you aren't supporting the developers: The publishers gain everything because they put up all the money and all the risk. However, a well selling title is likely to mean either a sequel or continual development from the development studio. First hand sales do, indirectly, impact the developers quite a bit.

5. Gaming is a luxury: Yup. Its a hobby. All hobbies are expensive.

The second hand market for the PC is, effectively, nonexistant. Despite this it has prospered rather well throughout the years and can be quite affordable to game on and to purchase games. Consoles are inherently anti-consumer. To purchase a console is to support anti-consumer practices.

While the head companies reign in further on anti-consumer practices, you all complain about them doing what you've already given them the green light to do so. Oh well. Stop buying them?

No used games = no console purchase.

No B/C = late console purchase.

The only way the used games position changes for me is if there are regular steam like sales. Even then im not so sure because under this condition it would make it hard/impossible to take a game to a friends house and play together.

Great post TC...and I agree wholeheartedly. The problem is the die hard MS fanboys who will buy it no matter what.. and the general population who is brainwashed by expensive TV ads... just look at the GS xbone news articles and the comments some of the xbox fans are making..they are making shit up... Midnightshade29

Why do people keep blaming Bobby Kotick? As evil as he is, he's actually one of the few publishers that doesn't care about used games, most the used games crap comes from EA.Sali217

Great points TC. I fully agree. Especially with your third point. Publishers got other problems if their games need a few millions just to break even.

ok, so this looks like a huge ripoff right now and it is a turn off  but  all i can do is try to judge this from the only example we have which is the past decade of pc gaming where games are sold for less and most go to half launch price in a month or two.

now this probably won't happen to console games right away because we are all used to being ripped off to the tune of $60 games for months and months before they go down and that will be used against us but if this is a step towards pc type pricing then it will work out fine.

is this a shytty thing to do? maybe.

could this lead to lower game prices across the board? maybe.

could we possibly get steam type sales on console? maybe.

could this be the worst thing to ever happen to console games? maybe.

the point here is you never know how it could all play out but unilaterally declaring doom and disaster is some silly ass shyt.

Blocking used games isn't a big deal.

1. Gamestop =/= used games: Their business is dependant on this. I dont care either way. I havent bought a game in Gamestop in years.

2. Used games =/= piracy: True. But i dont get your reasoning. The initial pirated master copy could just as likely been a sale too. The point of this comparison is that a used sale is akin to no revenue - like piracy. But otherwise, yes, they are different.

3. AAA development is the one that isn't self sustaining, not used games: And publishers are finding additional ways to garner review. Blocking used games *might* be one of them. The data is unclear. Thats why its being done.

4. Many times, you aren't supporting the developers: The publishers gain everything because they put up all the money and all the risk. However, a well selling title is likely to mean either a sequel or continual development from the development studio. First hand sales do, indirectly, impact the developers quite a bit.

5. Gaming is a luxury: Yup. Its a hobby. All hobbies are expensive.

The second hand market for the PC is, effectively, nonexistant. Despite this it has prospered rather well throughout the years and can be quite affordable to game on and to purchase games. Consoles are inherently anti-consumer. To purchase a console is to support anti-consumer practices.

While the head companies reign in further on anti-consumer practices, you all complain about them doing what you've already given them the green light to do so. Oh well. Stop buying them?

XaosII

MS isn't getting any money from me.

[QUOTE="Heil68"]Well said. I hope E3 answers some of the burning questions I have for MS or I'll be skipping X1. ActicEdge

Dude, off topic, you and Eroica are great hosts for the podcast. I haven't laughed so hard during a gaming podcast in a long time.

If I did buy a used game I would much rather see the developers get a small cut. Why should a store make a killing selling used games. IMO this is a good thing, you will pay the same for a used game, the only difference is were the money you paid goes.

ok, so this looks like a huge ripoff right now and it is a turn off  but  all i can do is try to judge this from the only example we have which is the past decade of pc gaming where games are sold for less and most go to half launch price in a month or two.

now this probably won't happen to console games right away because we are all used to being ripped off to the tune of $60 games for months and months before they go down and that will be used against us but if this is a step towards pc type pricing then it will work out fine.

is this a shytty thing to do? maybe.

could this lead to lower game prices across the board? maybe.

could we possibly get steam type sales on console? maybe.

could this be the worst thing to ever happen to console games? maybe.

the point here is you never know how it could all play out but unilaterally declaring doom and disaster is some silly ass shyt.

Riverwolf007

If I did buy a used game I would much rather see the developers get a small cut. Why should a store make a killing selling used games. IMO this is a good thing, you will pay the same for a used game, the only difference is were the money you paid goes.

rrjim1

Not sure if I'll be skipping another console generation or not... things are starting to get pretty intense. 

Really sad to see developers getting screwed as always. I know it's a business, but if anyone deserves a cut from used sales it is the people who made it. Not that I support what is happening. I am fine as a PC gamer which no second hand games market, but I 100% believe Microsoft is going into a spot that could effect more people then just consumers. Getting real ugly. 

Agreed

We can sell cars, books, dvds, cds, hardware, etc, etc. Why must games be different? If we bought them we should be able to do w/e we want with it. This is bs plain and simple

Yes, we needed another one. Because apparently we still have some of you out there who think a used games block isn't a big deal. 

darkspineslayer

Its not a big deal, you are a cheap ass.

and a cabbage.

1. Gamestop =/= used games

darkspineslayer

QFT

this myth needs to be debunked immediately. i see so many posters on this board acting like gamestop is the used games industry when that couldn't be further from the truth. 

great thread TC.

[QUOTE="darkspineslayer"]

Yes, we needed another one. Because apparently we still have some of you out there who think a used games block isn't a big deal. 

tenaka2

Its not a big deal, you are a cheap ass.

and a cabbage.

[QUOTE="darkspineslayer"]

Yes, we needed another one. Because apparently we still have some of you out there who think a used games block isn't a big deal. 

tenaka2

Its not a big deal, you are a cheap ass.

and a cabbage.

[QUOTE="darkspineslayer"]

Yes, we needed another one. Because apparently we still have some of you out there who think a used games block isn't a big deal. 

tenaka2

Its not a big deal, you are a cheap ass.

and a cabbage.

Dumbest logic ever. I'm sure a ton of people here make way more money than you, spend more money than you on games and "still" oppose used games. Knowing your consumer rights and pushing for what's in your best interest isn't synonomous with being cheap. It's called being smart. You're an idiot if you won't even delve into why you want to lose your rights for your hobby.

If I did buy a used game I would much rather see the developers get a small cut. Why should a store make a killing selling used games. IMO this is a good thing, you will pay the same for a used game, the only difference is were the money you paid goes.

rrjim1

yes and piracy does not equal a lost sale

lostrib