Used games are not the problem and we owe publishers nothing.

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#1 Posted by darkspineslayer (19446 posts) -

Yes, we needed another one. Because apparently we still have some of you out there who think a used games block isn't a big deal. That being told you don't own what you own is perfectly OK. That used games is the only reason developers close down and Bobby Kotick slides dangeriously closer to poverty with every used game sale. You, my good sirs and madams, are wrong.

1. Gamestop =/= used games


Kijiji, Cragslist, Ebay, Amazon, friend to friend, there are plenty of methods a used game gets around. Gamestop and their shady buisness is beside the point.

2. Used games =/= piracy

Piracy takes one game and copies it millions of times. Used games were new at one point. different.

3. AAA development is the one that isn't self sustaining, not used games.


When you need to sell 6 million copies to break even, your spending too much. Its the proverbial collage student that dosn't know how to manage credit.  

4. Many times, you aren't supporting the developers.

Developers get a very small cut from royalties (around 15%), if they even get them at all. A month or so after the fact, when the used games market has taken full effect on a title and the game is old news, how much do you think buying new is going to matter to a developer who isn't seeing much of that money? The publishers are the prime benificiary here.

5. Gaming is a luxury



Yes, that's very true. it is a luxury, as non-essensial entertainment. Now, why is that helping publishers if far fewer people can afford to support the hobby? Many used games are traded in order to fund new games, and often a used game is traded in to recoup a little of the investment if the customer was unsatisfied. What should one do with a Sonic '06 level turd in the future? keep it forever? Perhaps your game dosn't offer the same value as a larger one, why would i pay the same premium for it?

I do hope the X1 falls on it's face over this. Not because I hold a blind love for my Playstation, as i'm sure i'll be accused of. But because we as consumers deserve at least a little freedom, a little something that the industry dosn't control. Should the general population vote with their wallets for these shenanigans, we can only look forward to a totaltarian gaming future, and one that leaves a whole chapter of our legacy buried with the shut down servers once they see no more need to keep them on. Think the game industry is headed for a crash? This is the co-pilot pushing the stick forward.

#2 Posted by FLegendOfZeldaU (33 posts) -
We agree w/ topic
#3 Posted by Cranler (8127 posts) -

Game consoles and printers are the only goods I know of that are sold at a loss. Its expected that used games business would be frowned upon by the industry. If the 360 had been sold for profit like most devices it would have cost $800 at least, PS 3 would have been at least $1,000. Most gamers would have to find a new hobby if it wasnt for Sony and MS selling hardware at a loss.

#4 Posted by darkspineslayer (19446 posts) -

Game consoles and printers are the only goods I know of that are sold at a loss. Its expected that used games business would be frowned upon by the industry. If the 360 had been sold for profit like most devices it would have cost $800 at least, PS 3 would have been at least $1,000. Most gamers would have to find a new hobby if it wasnt for Sony and MS selling hardware at a loss.

Cranler
That would be how console gaming works. Hardware at a loss, ridiculous markup on games. PC works the other way. we've gone though 7 other generations without a used games block, something else has changed if it's such an issue.
#5 Posted by lostrib (32942 posts) -

yes and piracy does not equal a lost sale

#6 Posted by ActicEdge (24332 posts) -

As a consumer, my honest response to me seeing my norms pissed away is to not support it. I don't even buy used games often but I'm not for giving it up. You want high end gaming, get a PC. Otherwise, what Sony and MS do selling systems at a loss so we can have "teh best graphix" is something I don't give a rats ass about. Publishers should fix their model because imo, until the disk dies and everything is digital, there isn't a chance in hell I'm buying a console where I can't lend games out.

#7 Posted by darkspineslayer (19446 posts) -

yes and piracy does not equal a lost sale

lostrib
Different argument, but the assumption that without the piracy route the pirate would buy the game is indeed flawed, yes.
#8 Posted by BrunoBRS (73259 posts) -

Game consoles and printers are the only goods I know of that are sold at a loss. Its expected that used games business would be frowned upon by the industry. If the 360 had been sold for profit like most devices it would have cost $800 at least, PS 3 would have been at least $1,000. Most gamers would have to find a new hobby if it wasnt for Sony and MS selling hardware at a loss.

Cranler
maybe the problem is making stupidly overpowered systems that must be sold at a loss to be reasonable, huh? if the industry wasn't so obsessed with bleeding edge tech, development and hardware costs wouldn't be as high as they currently are.
#9 Posted by SambaLele (4976 posts) -

One more thing:

Like in many other markets, people who sell their used products tend to use the money to buy a new one of the same kind.

Sell a car, buy a new one. Sell your house, buy a new one. Sell your game, buy a new one!

That's the most common reason for selling stuff.

Also, there are people who try the game by borrowing it, and later buy it.

Used games, like any other used durable product, is part of the whole market dynamics.

In the end, they benefit even devs themselves.

There's no other reason to make it seem like a problem, other than to make profit with every play, like if the used product was a new one.

#10 Posted by SambaLele (4976 posts) -

[QUOTE="Cranler"]

Game consoles and printers are the only goods I know of that are sold at a loss. Its expected that used games business would be frowned upon by the industry. If the 360 had been sold for profit like most devices it would have cost $800 at least, PS 3 would have been at least $1,000. Most gamers would have to find a new hobby if it wasnt for Sony and MS selling hardware at a loss.

BrunoBRS

maybe the problem is making stupidly overpowered systems that must be sold at a loss to be reasonable, huh? if the industry wasn't so obsessed with bleeding edge tech, development and hardware costs wouldn't be as high as they currently are.

 

That's not a problem. They use that marketing strategy since the PS1 era. It's a plan used to profit more actually, by managing to conquer consumer base faster, and thus selling more games.

They profit a lot with the games, enough to make it up for the hardware loss, and even to compensate departments that are not doing as good as the entertainment one (see Sony for example).

#11 Posted by Rocker6 (13358 posts) -

Great thread, video games are a product like any other, and there is no reason why the first sale doctrine shouldn't apply.

Blocking used games would be pretty disasterous on consoles, I too hope MS falls flat to its face with this ugly new strategy of theirs.

#12 Posted by Heil68 (43165 posts) -
Well said. I hope E3 answers some of the burning questions I have for MS or I'll be skipping X1.
#13 Posted by whiskeystrike (12068 posts) -

Yeah, it's getting pretty damn annoying with a bunch of morons buying into the "used games is the cancer of the industry" argument.

Games are products, not services, and first sale should always apply.

#14 Posted by SchnabbleTab (1084 posts) -

Exactly, when I buy a game then it's mine, I can do whatever I want with it so I dont give a rats ass if MS wants more money, I'll go PS4 and end of story and if Sony happens to do the same crap then I'll go PC only or maybe get that Nintendo U thing that no one makes games for anymore.

#15 Posted by Oil_Rope_Bombs (2671 posts) -

Exactly, when I buy a game then it's mine, I can do whatever I want with it so I dont give a rats ass if MS wants more money, I'll go PS4 and end of story and if Sony happens to do the same crap then I'll go PC only or maybe get that Nintendo U thing that no one makes games for anymore.

SchnabbleTab
I'm confused. In some threads, you act like you're against Sony, but here you're acting like a cow. What's up?
#16 Posted by ActicEdge (24332 posts) -

Well said. I hope E3 answers some of the burning questions I have for MS or I'll be skipping X1. Heil68

Dude, off topic, you and Eroica are great hosts for the podcast. I haven't laughed so hard during a gaming podcast in a long time.

#17 Posted by darkspineslayer (19446 posts) -
[QUOTE="SchnabbleTab"]

Exactly, when I buy a game then it's mine, I can do whatever I want with it so I dont give a rats ass if MS wants more money, I'll go PS4 and end of story and if Sony happens to do the same crap then I'll go PC only or maybe get that Nintendo U thing that no one makes games for anymore.

Oil_Rope_Bombs
I'm confused. In some threads, you act like you're against Sony, but here you're acting like a cow. What's up?

Cow = standing up for consumer rights?
#18 Posted by Joedgabe (5091 posts) -

My big issue it's taking freedom away for no good reason. So I agree with the OP. Though i don't even like to buy used games :P

#19 Posted by Andrew_Xavier (9616 posts) -

My big issue it's taking freedom away for no good reason. So I agree with the OP. Though i don't even like to buy used games :P

Joedgabe
See, I don't buy used games, but I do sell games on kijiji when I'm finished with them, so this entire thing destroys that ability...and we are expected to what when finished with XBO games? Trade them to bloody gamestop? No thanks.
#20 Posted by blackace (19996 posts) -
All I know is I'm not paying any FEES to play a USED GAME that I buy. So if M$ or Sony go this route in any shape or form they can count me out. I'll stick with my PS3 and XBox 360 until they get rid of that sh!tty policy practice.
#21 Posted by I_can_haz (6551 posts) -
So much truth in the OP.
#22 Posted by darkspineslayer (19446 posts) -
[QUOTE="I_can_haz"]So much truth in the OP.

I try to bring education to the masses. :cool:
#24 Posted by xboxdone (17 posts) -
 it will failed
#25 Posted by Midnightshade29 (5252 posts) -
Great post TC...and I agree wholeheartedly. The problem is the die hard MS fanboys who will buy it no matter what.. and the general population who is brainwashed by expensive TV ads... just look at the GS xbone news articles and the comments some of the xbox fans are making..they are making shit up...
#26 Posted by Midnightshade29 (5252 posts) -
Great post TC...and I agree wholeheartedly. The problem is the die hard MS fanboys who will buy it no matter what.. and the general population who is brainwashed by expensive TV ads... just look at the GS xbone news articles and the comments some of the xbox fans are making..they are making shit up...

One more thing:

Like in many other markets, people who sell their used products tend to use the money to buy a new one of the same kind.

Sell a car, buy a new one. Sell your house, buy a new one. Sell your game, buy a new one!

That's the most common reason for selling stuff.

Also, there are people who try the game by borrowing it, and later buy it.

Used games, like any other used durable product, is part of the whole market dynamics.

In the end, they benefit even devs themselves.

There's no other reason to make it seem like a problem, other than to make profit with every play, like if the used product was a new one.

SambaLele
Thats what ms is doing...they will make profit off every sale...it never goes back to the devs.. its all about their greed!
#27 Posted by Midnightshade29 (5252 posts) -
Well said. I hope E3 answers some of the burning questions I have for MS or I'll be skipping X1. Heil68
You should already be skipping it..based off their past 4 years of crap and the bad hardware and conference...and their motives.
#28 Posted by Sali217 (1274 posts) -
Why do people keep blaming Bobby Kotick? As evil as he is, he's actually one of the few publishers that doesn't care about used games, most the used games crap comes from EA.
#29 Posted by XaosII (16530 posts) -

Blocking used games isn't a big deal.

1. Gamestop =/= used games: Their business is dependant on this. I dont care either way. I havent bought a game in Gamestop in years.

2. Used games =/= piracy: True. But i dont get your reasoning. The initial pirated master copy could just as likely been a sale too. The point of this comparison is that a used sale is akin to no revenue - like piracy. But otherwise, yes, they are different.

3. AAA development is the one that isn't self sustaining, not used games: And publishers are finding additional ways to garner review. Blocking used games *might* be one of them. The data is unclear. Thats why its being done.

4. Many times, you aren't supporting the developers: The publishers gain everything because they put up all the money and all the risk. However, a well selling title is likely to mean either a sequel or continual development from the development studio. First hand sales do, indirectly, impact the developers quite a bit.

5. Gaming is a luxury: Yup. Its a hobby. All hobbies are expensive.

The second hand market for the PC is, effectively, nonexistant. Despite this it has prospered rather well throughout the years and can be quite affordable to game on and to purchase games. Consoles are inherently anti-consumer. To purchase a console is to support anti-consumer practices.

While the head companies reign in further on anti-consumer practices, you all complain about them doing what you've already given them the green light to do so. Oh well. Stop buying them?

#30 Posted by Armoured_Mage (766 posts) -

No used games = no console purchase.

No B/C = late console purchase.

The only way the used games position changes for me is if there are regular steam like sales. Even then im not so sure because under this condition it would make it hard/impossible to take a game to a friends house and play together.

#31 Posted by darkspineslayer (19446 posts) -
Great post TC...and I agree wholeheartedly. The problem is the die hard MS fanboys who will buy it no matter what.. and the general population who is brainwashed by expensive TV ads... just look at the GS xbone news articles and the comments some of the xbox fans are making..they are making shit up... Midnightshade29
I don't agree with any suggested X1 bias in the news articles themselves. From what I've seen GS is good about sticking to the facts. The comment threads on them though, man some of them are more idiotic than the hardest-core lemming.
Why do people keep blaming Bobby Kotick? As evil as he is, he's actually one of the few publishers that doesn't care about used games, most the used games crap comes from EA.Sali217
First exec. That sprang to mind after finding myself unable to spell Riccitiello.
#32 Posted by timmy00 (15360 posts) -

Great points TC. I fully agree. Especially with your third point. Publishers got other problems if their games need a few millions just to break even.

#33 Posted by Riverwolf007 (23410 posts) -

ok, so this looks like a huge ripoff right now and it is a turn off  but  all i can do is try to judge this from the only example we have which is the past decade of pc gaming where games are sold for less and most go to half launch price in a month or two.

now this probably won't happen to console games right away because we are all used to being ripped off to the tune of $60 games for months and months before they go down and that will be used against us but if this is a step towards pc type pricing then it will work out fine.

is this a shytty thing to do? maybe.

could this lead to lower game prices across the board? maybe.

could we possibly get steam type sales on console? maybe.

could this be the worst thing to ever happen to console games? maybe.

the point here is you never know how it could all play out but unilaterally declaring doom and disaster is some silly ass shyt.

#34 Posted by darkspineslayer (19446 posts) -

Blocking used games isn't a big deal.

1. Gamestop =/= used games: Their business is dependant on this. I dont care either way. I havent bought a game in Gamestop in years.

2. Used games =/= piracy: True. But i dont get your reasoning. The initial pirated master copy could just as likely been a sale too. The point of this comparison is that a used sale is akin to no revenue - like piracy. But otherwise, yes, they are different.

3. AAA development is the one that isn't self sustaining, not used games: And publishers are finding additional ways to garner review. Blocking used games *might* be one of them. The data is unclear. Thats why its being done.

4. Many times, you aren't supporting the developers: The publishers gain everything because they put up all the money and all the risk. However, a well selling title is likely to mean either a sequel or continual development from the development studio. First hand sales do, indirectly, impact the developers quite a bit.

5. Gaming is a luxury: Yup. Its a hobby. All hobbies are expensive.

The second hand market for the PC is, effectively, nonexistant. Despite this it has prospered rather well throughout the years and can be quite affordable to game on and to purchase games. Consoles are inherently anti-consumer. To purchase a console is to support anti-consumer practices.

While the head companies reign in further on anti-consumer practices, you all complain about them doing what you've already given them the green light to do so. Oh well. Stop buying them?

XaosII
1. You missed the point 2. You're splitting hairs 3. I refer you to successes like Dark Souls, that show a properly targeted, and budgeted game can make money with the used games market in full effect. The lessons here? Make games people want to buy, and stop trying to take the CoD audience 4. A valid point, but not really what I was personally aiming at. I was aiming at the cut a used fee such as the one proposed by MS, and how after the first month or so, it's a drop of water in the desert. 5. Indeed it is, so why would it not be in the best interest of the industry to keep gaming more widely available? You'll have to explain that last bit a little further, perhaps some example for your conjecture?
#35 Posted by LadyBlue (3927 posts) -

MS isn't getting any money from me.

#36 Posted by Heil68 (43165 posts) -

[QUOTE="Heil68"]Well said. I hope E3 answers some of the burning questions I have for MS or I'll be skipping X1. ActicEdge

Dude, off topic, you and Eroica are great hosts for the podcast. I haven't laughed so hard during a gaming podcast in a long time.

Awww thanks! You should join us for E3 or your own podcast!
#37 Posted by rrjim1 (841 posts) -

If I did buy a used game I would much rather see the developers get a small cut. Why should a store make a killing selling used games. IMO this is a good thing, you will pay the same for a used game, the only difference is were the money you paid goes.

#38 Posted by LustForSoul (5827 posts) -
Gaming is a luxury? Are you mad? It's up there with Bread and Water.
#39 Posted by darkspineslayer (19446 posts) -

ok, so this looks like a huge ripoff right now and it is a turn off  but  all i can do is try to judge this from the only example we have which is the past decade of pc gaming where games are sold for less and most go to half launch price in a month or two.

now this probably won't happen to console games right away because we are all used to being ripped off to the tune of $60 games for months and months before they go down and that will be used against us but if this is a step towards pc type pricing then it will work out fine.

is this a shytty thing to do? maybe.

could this lead to lower game prices across the board? maybe.

could we possibly get steam type sales on console? maybe.

could this be the worst thing to ever happen to console games? maybe.

the point here is you never know how it could all play out but unilaterally declaring doom and disaster is some silly ass shyt.

Riverwolf007
If it has to play out, your situation for it would be the best case scenario. Personally, I have a hard time believing a company the pioneered pay to play online and overpriced proprietary hard drives would play with the pricing model because they can.

If I did buy a used game I would much rather see the developers get a small cut. Why should a store make a killing selling used games. IMO this is a good thing, you will pay the same for a used game, the only difference is were the money you paid goes.

rrjim1
See point 4.
#40 Posted by Ginosaji (965 posts) -

If I did buy a used game I would much rather see the developers get a small cut. Why should a store make a killing selling used games. IMO this is a good thing, you will pay the same for a used game, the only difference is were the money you paid goes.

rrjim1
Retailers won't take any significant loss of revenue. The difference will come out of your pocket in one way or another.
#41 Posted by HowlingLotus (387 posts) -

Not sure if I'll be skipping another console generation or not... things are starting to get pretty intense. 

Really sad to see developers getting screwed as always. I know it's a business, but if anyone deserves a cut from used sales it is the people who made it. Not that I support what is happening. I am fine as a PC gamer which no second hand games market, but I 100% believe Microsoft is going into a spot that could effect more people then just consumers. Getting real ugly. 

#42 Posted by Vatusus (4337 posts) -

Agreed

We can sell cars, books, dvds, cds, hardware, etc, etc. Why must games be different? If we bought them we should be able to do w/e we want with it. This is bs plain and simple

#43 Posted by tenaka2 (17013 posts) -

Yes, we needed another one. Because apparently we still have some of you out there who think a used games block isn't a big deal. 

darkspineslayer

Its not a big deal, you are a cheap ass.

 

and a cabbage.

#44 Posted by lazerface216 (7449 posts) -


1. Gamestop =/= used games

darkspineslayer

QFT

this myth needs to be debunked immediately. i see so many posters on this board acting like gamestop is the used games industry when that couldn't be further from the truth. 

great thread TC.

#45 Posted by darkspineslayer (19446 posts) -

[QUOTE="darkspineslayer"]

Yes, we needed another one. Because apparently we still have some of you out there who think a used games block isn't a big deal. 

tenaka2

Its not a big deal, you are a cheap ass.

 

and a cabbage.

Yep, I'm a cheap ass for standing up for consumer rights. Your amazing counter arguments just beat me into a pulp. Good day to you sir.
#46 Posted by Andrew_Xavier (9616 posts) -

[QUOTE="darkspineslayer"]

Yes, we needed another one. Because apparently we still have some of you out there who think a used games block isn't a big deal. 

tenaka2

Its not a big deal, you are a cheap ass.

 

and a cabbage.

I agree, I cannot wait for the day where the original developer gets a cut of re-sale homes, cars, blurays, gum, shoes, all forms of art, etc We should simply eliminate any and all possession laws in respect to the person making the purchase, all consumer products should remain property of the original developer/creator/producer, and have consumers only own a limited license to use said products.
#47 Posted by ActicEdge (24332 posts) -

[QUOTE="darkspineslayer"]

Yes, we needed another one. Because apparently we still have some of you out there who think a used games block isn't a big deal. 

tenaka2

Its not a big deal, you are a cheap ass.

 

and a cabbage.

Dumbest logic ever. I'm sure a ton of people here make way more money than you, spend more money than you on games and "still" oppose used games. Knowing your consumer rights and pushing for what's in your best interest isn't synonomous with being cheap. It's called being smart. You're an idiot if you won't even delve into why you want to lose your rights for your hobby.

#48 Posted by MFDOOM1983 (8453 posts) -
Couldn't agree more with the thread title.
#49 Posted by Sali217 (1274 posts) -

If I did buy a used game I would much rather see the developers get a small cut. Why should a store make a killing selling used games. IMO this is a good thing, you will pay the same for a used game, the only difference is were the money you paid goes.

rrjim1
And what if I want to sell my game privately to someone who wants to buy it?
#50 Posted by xsubtownerx (10705 posts) -

yes and piracy does not equal a lost sale

lostrib
I'm not sure I follow on that one.