Used Games

So as you all heard, Irrational Games has shut down... It's terrible and has negatively impacted my day, and I'm sure yours as well.

Someone made a comment on my twitter feed blaming used game sales for this and said it's never ok to buy them. I disagreed, in fact I was one of those who opposed the X1's DRM proposition before it got released. So my opinion on this matter is: I understand that used games hurts the industry, but like other industries out there, they do not get their money for used sales either. I'm very conflicted on my viewpoints right now, I believe selling and buying used games is a right to the people, but there really is no set timeframe after the game's marketing campaign that makes it ok to buy them. I say that because nearly all the profit made on the game is within the first month or two of its release, then it significantly drops. Now logically, I don't think those people who were buying it at that time would save a measly $5, but that's up for discussion. When I say that, after the significant drop a few months later, the price drops and it becomes a bargain for the consumer. See what I'm trying to connect? So if it's after the drop, used game sales shouldn't be a problem.

And for s***s and giggles, what's your view on XBone's previous DRM policies?

What are your thoughts on the matter?

I think gamestop is a cancer to gaming. I don't have a problem with small scale 2nd games between friends or by individuals but when you create an entire industry out of it like gamestop has where it absolute harms the sale of full priced games then I think its a massive issue when none of that revenue is going back into the gaming industry.

I know from past experience that this is not a popular stance on SW, but its true.

Used games is not why Irrational games closed.

"my passion has turned to making a different kind of game than we’ve done before. To meet the challenge ahead, I need to refocus my energy on a smaller team with a flatter structure and a more direct relationship with gamers. In many ways, it will be a return to how we started: a small team making games for the core gaming audience."

As far as MS's DRM policies, they got knocked the **** out at E3 for trying to change the industry on their own. They are still dealing with the blowback from it imo.

I agree 100%.

used games my ass. They made enough money on bioshock

The existence of used game sales is well known and obv Irrational should have taken that into consideration when they made their pojections (not saying they didn't). The development for BS:I was very messy (I think Levine said they threw away eitgh games worth of content) and I think that was a bigger factor. I also think Levine is an artist who wants to do new, more narrative focused games, which is hard in the AAA industry.

In short I don't think used games had much to do with Irrational closing.

One used game sale is a loss for the developer.

I'm fairly for used games.

Imo if i trade in a game it's because it don't think the game has the replay value for me to play it again. If i buy a game used it's usually because i haven't bought at launch and because i don't feel the game is worth full price. Make a game good enough and you've got me buying a brand new copy that i won't trade in.

I don't see used games as lost sales either because i don't think people valued the game at full price, as i explained above, so didn't buy it or it's because they couldn't afford it in the first place.

As for MS' DRM policies i'm against it as the motive was pretty obviously business based and didn't take into account the consumer. For me it would have meant i just wouldn't have bought some used games. Wouldn't have meant i was giving MS or publishers more money and i'd have been losing out on playing some games, nobody would have won there with me. Also it didn't help that the management of it was a shambles.

Screw you and blaming used games, Bioshock infinite has sold 4-5m copies if a studio can't survive on those type of numbers I suggest this is a management and budgeting to unreal expections fault.

Oh, here we go with the "used games are the devil" bulls***. Jeez, at this point, I guess retro gaming is committing a sin.

MS's DRM issue was an issue becaues they tried to allow used games on a discless system, the convoluted DRM system was a problem because they tried to have those two things, discless play and used game sales... they fixed that pretty easy with not having a discless system.

It's not the used game system that's inherently bad by itself, it's the practice of the industry to only sell used games in the long term. GameStop's for instance don't re-order new inventory when they run out of new copies of old games, they just want to sell the buy backs. Consumers aren't given the options to choose between new and used because retailers are switching over to selling used.

I personally don't like buying used since at stores like GameStop they're only a couple bucks less than what would be the new price and they miss cases and instructions and as one GameStop employee on here said it looks like someone jacked off all over the covers they do give you for used games. Besides, you can usually get new games cheaper than the used price on sites like Amazon.

Gamestop is a cancer in the industry, but used games are not. A copy sold is a copy sold. A rental might lead to a purchase, but if not it's probably the devs own fault that it didn't turn into one.

Rentals wouldn't even exist if games were actually worth the price of admission, but as it stands, rentals exist because there is a market for them. The market always dictates how business ebbs and flows.

Next they'll blame people who don't buy games at full retail price....

I concur.

I am not here to make others money and couldn't care less what happens to any given company. I will save money anywhere I can. If that makes me a mean person in your eyes, then so be it. The gen before last and the one before that I bought the games I wanted on the day they released, but then last gen came and they got greedy and started charging $60 per game. So in turn, I got greedy and refused to buy games until they dropped to around $20 before buying. I will buy used if a game doesn't drop in price fast enough. With PC I normally wait until it is on a Steam sale for less than $10. Gaming isn't my top hobby and I would rather save every penny I can with gaming to spend on other hobbies that I enjoy more.

What do you make of smaller markets of second hand games, such as Pawn Shops, Thrift Stores (ex: Goodwill), Amazon's third parties, or eBay?

i like this topic.

xone's previous drm policies. i would have been apprehensive to join MS' on a console with no used games, mostly because their track record on digital pricing wasn't great. the family sharing thing was not properly described so i can't properly assess the value MS was offering. but on the whole, i would have been too apprehensive to do anything without further information, and they were hardly forthcoming with info. terrible PR by MS.

regarding used games in general, i'm ambivalent. i used to trade games myself, and once half-life 2 released - i went dark on the pc platform for a little while. back then of course steam offered no benefits such as very aggressive discounts. so i understand how it feels when money is a one way street with games compared to games being an asset which are bought/sold.

having experienced both systems, i am thankful for the established steam ecosystem without used games. for the price of one depreciated xbox 360 game, i now buy about 4 to 6 depreciated PC games on sale on steam. also, my library simply grows, and in the future I can show people my old games etc, or give them another play.

each system has its pros and cons, i was a former detractor of steam but now i am a supporter, and my support comes from the benefits steam gives me: including access to THE cheapest PC games I've ever seen in an incredibly convenient package.

I have always liked the idea of no used games sales for 60 days after release. Nobody likes being told they cant do what they want with something they paid for. As for DRM with MS, I truly believe if the reaction had been neutral, Sony would've taken the stage after, with the same set up. I am glad it didn't happen. But I see the positives it would do as far as devs getting paid. But there is no reason anyone should be paying same price as physical, for a download.

I usually buy new. Only time I buy used is when I'm getting a really good price on a game that launched several years ago.

I don't think Gamestop should be allowed to sell used game for at least the first 30 days on the market. People will save $5 if they can, and that's just not cool.

I think it's screwed up that GameStop will sell used copies right a game comes out for $55, but I support the right to buy used games. I think a good idea would be prohibiting used sales for the first month.

Bioshock Infinite sold between 4-5 million copies. How many copies would have sold if there were no used gaming? I think the number would have ended up being between 4-5 million copies, and Irrational would still have gone under. The fact that a company can't live off of 4-5 million sales is a problem way too big to solve by getting rid of used gaming.

I remember when I went to buy Ghost trick for the DS. It was £30 but the guy kept bugging me to buy the used one for £25...

Used games, in and of themselves, are not the largest issue. Like Hazy said above, it's a company like Gamespot which is having a real impact. How often do you get nagged to buy a used version,? Often, it's only a few bucks cheaper than new. Gamestop cornered a market, but they do use some iffy sales tactics.

Let me add that I don't buy anything new or used from Gamestop. My purchases come from off the net.

20%+ cheaper to the consumer to...

Either way i played countless games used and have became fans of the series that resulted in me buying the next game in the series for full price, elder scrolls, AC, dead rising, n4s and that's just the beginning

i still find this funny, i have visited many locations of gamestops and never get bugged about buying the used copy of a game when i ask for a game

~

Either way joining bestbuy unlock program is gonna encourage me buying way more new games, 20% off every single new game for next two years is nice

One of the reasons I switched to Best Buy. Annoying.

This thread again....

My thoughts on used games are this.

The difference between a used car and a new car is the used car is more prone to mechanical failure, has already been driven far, has wear and tear throughout, and may need some replacement parts.

The difference between a used game and a new game is someone took the plastic off the outside. Otherwise, the game plays THE EXACT SAME.

Which is why it isn't fair to compare the used game market with other markets. It definitely hurts a dev when a customer sees two of the same game, one new, and one used, and opts for the used one because they know full well it works the same.

My thoughts on DRM is that every developer has the right to protect their work, but I know that I will personally not support DRM if it, in any way, hampers my ability to enjoy something I bought unless in return it provides a lot of extra benefit for using it which, as far as what we knew, I didn't mind Xbox One's drm policies. I have an internet connection at all times, so a 24 hour check-in doesn't bother me, and in return for that they were seemingly going to give many of the perks that digital games get (security, automated everything, play anywhere without needing disk, etc.) and were extending it to that family sharing program which sounded great.

Used games are not the problem.

The real question should be why are dumb arse studios making games that cost so much to make, that they can't stay afoat without selling 10 million copies.

Second that.

There's two sides of the argument. On one hand, the used game industry is unlike any other market, as people complete and sell games at a much more rapid rate than anything else. Developers are losing sales within a week of releasing a game, as Gamestop will buy back copies and sell them at 55$.

The other side of the argument is what Nintendo's own Reggie said best -- If developers are so affected by used sales, they need to provide enough content in their games that makes gamers not want to sell them. And there's a truth to that, I keep most of my Nintendo games as there's hours upon hours of content, where something like Tomb Raider, I play once for 8 hours and never want to touch it again.

I buy used 90% of the time.

He's not closing down the studio because it was a financial pit hole. Levine just seems to be downscaling and laying off everyone.

I actually don't think Used games is what killed Irrational Games.

It's big budget titles that killed them.

Pretty sure Bioshock and Bioshock Infinite sold very well.

This Again?

It is not that used games are an issue in itself, the issue is that the BIGGEST GAMES retailer focuses almost soley on used games, and unlike most other intertainment industries, the makers have only 1 income, movies, music and even books allows the people making those to have more income venues.

But having the biggest seller of games have such a huge focus on used items it is more then just a problem., how many car sellers, book stores, movie stores (those still around?) have adverticements on used content plastered over all the walls? How many here have had people at gamestop trying to preassure you into buying used copies of a game? How many have been outright denied a new copy of a game simply because you did not preorder it?

I have been through all of the above, and I agree that it is a tumour on the industry now.

it is not the ebays, small pawnshops or even friends that are the problem with used games. It is that gamestop undermines the entire industry.

Yeah the devs can always make "better" games, is the usual comment, but point me to a single sp game that would hold enough value for it NOT to end up used in a gamestop within a week? Unless you Guys only wants mp games.

Lol, BioShock sold millions. Infinite sold even more millions.

If the (lack of) sales contributed to them closing, the budget for Infinite must have been astronomical.

Used games aren't the problem. Games that aren't worth paying full price for is the problem.

@bbkkristian: i don't have any issues with used games at all. If companies want people to buy new games, make good games so that they won't trade them in. Also having digital sales doesn't hurt them, put games on Live program or PS+ aswell. This way you get your money back. Used games should be allowed. I mostly buy games new, but every now and then i buy them used because they are so damn expensive where i live. The cheapest games i usually see are 20 bucks or so. The new games cost 100-120 bucks. But i try to support developers if i think the game is worth it

I've never bought any of Irrational Games' games, only played Bioshock 2 and Infinite becuz they were free on PSN, but I only like played a combined total on 3 hours cuz I found the games extremely boring and dull.

They arent closing becuz of sales, their game sold great, its becuz of the development hell Infinite went through becuz of all the power struggles and changes they had to make becuz the publisher wanted to make sure the game sold extremely well and was casual enough to appeal to wider audiences.

Used games help the market your argument of that revenue not going back into the gaming industry falls apart when take into account people trade in games to buy new ones.

I have bought more than a few older games off of amazon, but if they weren't 10$ - 15$ I wouldn't have bothered. They never lost a sale because I wasn't looking to buy new, in fact a few times I've become a fan of a series through this method and bought the 2ed new where I probably won't have given the series a 2ed thought otherwise.

@Shielder7: you raise an excellent point. I definitely would not have bought all the games and systems I have if it weren't for trading in old games! :o that definitely makes a difference.

Used games isn't why Irrational closed, as another user pointed out. On the subject of used games, though, I personally try to buy new copies whenever I can. At Gamestop, there's hardly a difference in price, but there's always a difference in what you get(condition-wise). I like to get my games new, and keep them in prime condition. On top of that, I want the people who made the game to get the money that I feel is due to them. Every used game I have bought has been one that went out of print(on that particular platform). Nearly every disc and case had scuffs and scratches, and a few had missing manuals. If I could have bought them new for my platform, I would have, but I lacked a say in the matter.

What really irks me about used game sales is when the retailer sells the game for more than what the publisher ever charged for it new, such as Xenoblade or the Metroid Prime Trilogy. If they want to resell the game, fine, but scalping people pisses me off. Thankfully, with digital sales, people might not have to put up with this in the future.

The games sold really well, it's more of a creative issue when it comes to Ken Levine and Irrational Games.

Unless that sale happens with in the first month, no it isn't.

The used market isn't going anywhere anytime soon. If it's profits that caused irrational to downsize then personally I'd blame the management and the higher ups. The higher ups put a lot of pressure on these devs to make games that make CoD like sales so pump money into these titles in order to appeal to a large fanbase. The problem is that the budget doesn't normally warrant the amount of sales that the game makes and thus they lose money. Just look at SE, a lot of their titles got reviewed well and sold a fair amount by all accounts yet they failed to make any money due to how high the budget was. That may not have been what happened here but it seems to be a common theme in modern development.

That on used game sale is already a new sale for the devloper. Why should the developer get paid twice for one copy of a game?

Used games had nothing to do with this.

6 years of development, an insane budget and plateauing sales for the series will kill any studio.

The Hollywood era of AAA game development takes another victim.

if used games were actually a problem the COD franchise wouldn't be selling 20 millions every year. The problem with games like Bioshock is that they simply do not appeal to many and if there weren't any used games the game would still sell around the same... I mean, for someone to buy a used game someone else had to buy it new. And the one buying used it's because he didn't have enough interest to buy it new.